Survey on Lying

I find there are a lot of complex opinions to be had on what many feel should be a fairly simple subject.

I’m genuinely interested in exploring this.

So I’m giving y’all a chance to speak your piece, vent your spleen and share your perspective.

It’s just a discussion, not a rewriting of global policy: Please play nicely. People who disagree with you are not likely to impact your life in any way.

1) What are your general feelings on truth and lying?

2) Do you believe in the notion of a white lie and if so, where do you draw the lines between the white lie and less acceptable lies.

3) Have you ever been lied to about something really big and/or important? - If so, what would you say was the emotion which comprised the lion’s share of your response?

4) Do you, personally, feel that it’s a greater wrong or a lesser wrong (or write-in your preference for describing your sentiments) to lie to a large group of people as opposed to just one individual. If so, why?

5) Do you believe modern American society is more inclined to lie than were previous generations? Why or why not?

1) I'm learning that 'objective truth' is an abstract concept. I suspect cultural differences and individual perceptions vary a great deal more than I had thought on this. I also think sometimes it's situational. The lies of our favourite politicians, sports stars and even colleagues seem a good deal more acceptable than those of our rivals in those and many other fields.

2) I do accept the principle of a white lie. I think some people use truth as a form of tyranny, a brutality. I value the friends I have who'll tell me honestly that my outfit is less than flattering. But some folks seem to engage in glee, a kind of schadenfreud over our failings and delight in finding cruel ways to tell us things, justifying their mean-spirited ways by saying "I'm only being honest." As if that made cruelty somehow acceptable. A friend of mine never told her son that his father didn't care about him. It would only have hurt the boy. She sent cards and presents in her ex's name every year on special occasions. When the boy got to be a teenager he knew the truth, no one ever had to tell him. By then he had developed a healthy sense of himself and a deep affection for his mum. I draw the lines at white lies at the answer to the question "what is the potential benefit/what is the potential damage."

3) We could all answer yes with regard to Dubya, but in my personal life, yes, I've been told a whopper or two, sold a bill of goods, etc. I guess my initial response was shame at being made to feel so foolish, and then anger at being made to feel ashamed. I got over the shame, though, when I explored more of why the lie took place.

4) I think it's often, perhaps even usually, a greater wrong when lying to a large group. Usually those are the more vile and damaging lies. But truly, it depends on the lie. I forgave almost immediately a gay friend who'd lied to a great many of us for a long time about his orientation, because I can understand and empathise with the myriad difficulties of acknowledging his sexuality in our culture and his life in particular.

5) I honestly don't know. I'm wondering if it's about the same, but we're just evolving a shamelessness about it.

I'm only responding to 2), the other four deserve their own section of the library.

I think white lies are ultimately the most harmful, because they not only snowball into systems of distortion, but operate under a well-intentioned premise that's harder to debunk because it feels good. Take a serially benign lie like Santa Claus or Reagan's "Morning in America"; the consequent falsehoods aren't merely corrosive (fear of a higher power trumps moral responsibility), but they're pernicious because no one ever wants to give up the fictional stuffed bear, so you end up with constructs like the Church and Project for a New American Century designed to support wishful thinking implanted in early childhood.

As for tact vs cruelty... I can't speak for your friend, but if it were a theoretical situation I'd find it more cruel to perpetuate a ghostly pretend-Daddy than explaining why scared, fragile people (as are we all) hurt the ones they love. But I don't walk in your friend's shoes so I can't pretend to know what it's really like.

So I'll take the easy way out: I agree with you on everything except

3) I skip the shame portion of it and go straight to being peeved. Though I'll hie it - oodles of self control - if it's in my best interests to at that time, or if I can use that knowledge to get back at the $#%* who lied.

4) I'm nots ure about this one. In some ways I wonder if it's worse being lied to as an individual, one-on-one. People in groups are used to be lied to, also. I can't really decide, though. Glad it's not a thread about decisiveness.

5) Ditto you....people in relationships have probably always lied to each other, children have probably always lied to parents and teachers, and politicians have probably always lied to everyone. Perhaps these days the ideal of not lying, as hypocritical as it may have been, is just not rasied (as something to aspire to) as often as it once was. Surely the '80s showed that greed was good and that lying in the commission of greed was okey-dokey. Of course, the steel, rail, and oil barons of yore were already well ahead of the pack on that, too.

Yaks don't lie.

I just felt that this thread needed a yak. A good, honest yak.

Thank you for your time.

I will now let sleeping yaks lie. Or lying yaks sleep. Whatever.

such questions.

Somewhere around here I have "The Book of Lies" which has everyone from Plato to Maimonedes to Aquinas to Wittgenstein, and maybe Mark Twain discussing lying. St. Augustine has a huge chapter all to himself.

Rather simplistically, I'd say it pretty much boils down to intent, although even that has to be seriously qualified. Most lies are white lies, and keep us from killing each other. If a good friend shows a picture of the ugliest kid on earth, wouldn't most of us just smile and say "beautiful child you have there"? Maimonedes talks of Jewish tradition that requires white lies in some social situations.

It gets complicated after that, and we've all had our little problems dealing with friends' unfaithful spouses and other pecadillos that we wonder if we should blow the whistle on. We've all also been in the spot of 'fessing up to our own little waiverings of various sorts.

If you're an astronomer and see the asteroid that's about to wipe out Earth in 3 days, do you tell anyone? What would be point either way?

What I'm getting at is that lying is situational, and one can't just be for or against it. One can easily be against lying for personal gain, or "bearing false witness" like vicious gossip and relocating blame, but there are so many grey areas.

We're not even all that sure what a "lie" really is. Sales pitches and sound bites are almost by definition lies of omission, and it's pretty well assumed that it's up to us to figure out the truth behind them, tough as that may be.

On to the obvious question--

I don't think the Shrub himself lied. I think in his miserable little mind he actually believes everything he says. I don't think he has the wit to properly lie all by himself. I do however, believe that he is surrounded by liars feeding him this crap.

St. Augustine talked about this sort of "corporate lie" and I really should find that book to review just what he said about it. Personally, I feel that anyone involved is guilty, either because they propagated the lies, or refused to find the truth.

1) What are your general feelings on truth and lying?

While I might agree that there is NO absolute truth some will use that to deliberately obscure . To do so IS a lie. I believe in searching for the truth however unattainable it may be.

2) Do you believe in the notion of a white lie and if so, where do you draw the lines between the white lie and less acceptable lies.

White lies are permissible if and only if to tell the truth would be FAR more harmful or hurtful. An example would be when I was coming out to my parents (after of course my friends mother outed me) I fed them a little info at a time as it spared them and me a lot of pain.

3) Have you ever been lied to about something really big and/or important? - If so, what would you say was the emotion which comprised the lion’s share of your response?
Yes. A few years ago I had some problems and had friends who claimed they supported me but were really only calling for details in order to create gossip around the subject.

I felt deep betrayal.

4) Do you, personally, feel that it’s a greater wrong or a lesser wrong (or write-in your preference for describing your sentiments) to lie to a large group of people as opposed to just one individual. If so, why?

The question is far too general and complex to give a one size fits all answer.
For instance, lying about the cost of war was unacceptable but if it were ever known that Bush WAS complicit in CAUSING 9/11 to happen, I believe the level of violence that truth would cause would not be worth the truth.

5) Do you believe modern American society is more inclined to lie than were previous generations? Why or why not?

Because they repeatedly see it reinforced that there is no real consequence.

HA!

1. Generally, I think I care less about truth and lying than I did when I was young. When I was young, I did think there were absolute truths, and couldn't figure out why people weren't telling me them. I no longer believe in absolute truth, but most of my interest in life is learning what is "true" for me. What works for me, what makes life make sense to me. These are as close as I can come to the concept of truth.

2. White lies. I tell (and assume I am told) white lies on a regular basis. It's like what someone else posted about ugly babies. Beauty/ugly are both subjective terms anyway, so if my subjective opinion would equal ugly, why choose to hurt someone whose subjective opinion would equal beauty?

3. I've been lied to about things that were really big and/or important at the time; time has made them less so. At the time, I was deeply hurt when the lie was exposed.

4. I'm trying to think of situations, and the only ones I'm coming up with involving large groups are situations where the one addressing (lying) to the large group is seeking personal gain at the expense of many, so I will say that would be the greater wrong.

5. I don't know how to effectively compare and contrast this. Previous gnerations seem to have been more willing to lie by ommission in order to avoid scandal; e.g closeted homosexuality, bastardy, etc. but the current climate seems willing to lie in a wide variety of ways. Is it a lie to build an entire lifestyle on credit? Many in this nation have the appearance of a lovely, comfortable, rich life, but struggle mightly to keep ahead of the bills. So, is it a lie, or simply a normal life?

1) What are your general feelings on truth and lying? My personal thoughts are the truth is the only way to go. If you cannot tell the truth then don’t say anything. You have the right not to respond you let it go. I follow Sir Thomas Moore on this rule, of course Moore lost his head for adhering to the rule.

2) Do you believe in the notion of a white lie and if so, where do you draw the lines between the white lie and less acceptable lies. White lies are usually in the area of opinion. “Do you like this or that, how do I look, etc.” There is no truth to be had in those types of questions since beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So your answer is not a lie, it can only be not true when tested against someone else’s standards.

3) Have you ever been lied to about something really big and/or important? - If so, what would you say was the emotion which comprised the lion’s share of your response? My reaction is rage and vengeance.

4) Do you, personally, feel that it’s a greater wrong or a lesser wrong (or write-in your preference for describing your sentiments) to lie to a large group of people as opposed to just one individual. If so, why? A lie is a lie, large groups or one person. Both are not standards to which we need to adhere.

5) Do you believe modern American society is more inclined to lie than were previous generations? Why or why not? The sad truth is yes the American society is inclined to lie, we cheat on income taxes, we speed, we throw trash out the windows, all the while describing ourselves as virtuous people, that in itself is a lie.

1) What are your general feelings on truth and lying?

Lying...whether to yourself or to another, doesn't benefit anything or anyone in the end.

2) Do you believe in the notion of a white lie and if so, where do you draw the lines between the white lie and less acceptable lies.

Ambivalent. I don't really believe that a "white lie" is ok. Except that, when someone puts you on the spot about something that is none of their business... I guess I haven't figured out how to say, "None of your business" in a civil, inoffensive way. So the white lie is a way out. Hmm...I think I've talked myself into saying that white lies are not ok, and that we should be able to decline private information without offending people.

3) Have you ever been lied to about something really big and/or important? - If so, what would you say was the emotion which comprised the lion’s share of your response?

Yes. A feeling of betrayal; feeling really stupid for trusting; feeling dishonored. Feeling crushed. Anger didn't come until months later, and then it was an impotent, useless anger because there was no place to direct it and nothing to do about it. The lion's share of my response, in the long run, is that I just flat out don't trust people.

4) Do you, personally, feel that it’s a greater wrong or a lesser wrong (or write-in your preference for describing your sentiments) to lie to a large group of people as opposed to just one individual. If so, why?

What's the difference? If the person or people have a right to the info, they have a right to it. Does it matter more if I compromise my integrity with a group, or an individual? I don't think it's a greater or lesser wrong. It's just wrong.

5) Do you believe modern American society is more inclined to lie than were previous generations? Why or why not?

I don't know; is there any way to find out how much actual lying was going on in previous generations?

I guess I would have to say that I think dishonesty has always been part of the human condition. I don't know to what degree.

The reply below does not take into account one basic fact. Sometimes we lie automatically or unknowingly from our emotions and/or out of fear of discovery. Sometimes, shit just happens, or we are too embarassed or afraid to tell the truth. Those types of lies add an element of messiness to the explanations below.

1) and 2)
I think it's important to be "true to yourself" and the honesty that implies. I also think it's important to look at things as unvarnished by wishful thinking as possible. That requires acknowledging that there may be dust on the mirror.

But, there's also a place for illusions and dishonesty. Optimism may be the ultimate illusion, but it also may be the ultimate truth. I choose to try to be optimistic, even though I realize that it may ultimately turn out to be fantasy -- because it may also turn out to be truth.

As for truthfulness to others, I believe that should always be a goal. But white lies or omissions or mistruth for a greater good also are necessary and/or desirable at times. We have to, for example, let our friends be themselves without always feeling we have to be the teller of unpleasant truths to them. At times, dishonesty is kinder and more helpful.

The line IMO betwen an acceptable "white line" and one that is unacceptable is motivation and whether the lie hurts another or causes damage.

3) Have you ever been lied to about something really big and/or important? - If so, what would you say was the emotion which comprised the lion’s share of your response?

Yes. My overriding emotions were a mix of anger at the betrayal of trust...And anger at myelf for being a sucker.

4) Do you, personally, feel that it’s a greater wrong or a lesser wrong (or write-in your preference for describing your sentiments) to lie to a large group of people as opposed to just one individual. If so, why?

It's usually a greater wrong to lie to a large group. Less reason to, and the damage is greater.

5) Do you believe modern American society is more inclined to lie than were previous generations? Why or why not?

Individually, we're probably no more or less honest than we've ever been.

Collectively and institutionally we are much less honest as a society today. Why? Because we've lost our moral compass as a socirty.

and I always lie and you can't prove anything anyway.

1) I hate liars, I know when people I know (dot.com politics will give you that edge) are lying to me, so I know it when I see it. I hate theives more than liars though.

2) Depends, today I swatted a bee off a co-worker's back. I walked past her, told her to not move while I manipulated her shirt into prime swatting position. She asked me what it was, I said it was nothing to worry about. White lie? Yes. Effective and useful causing no harm to her? Yes. So "white lies" are by definition subjective.

3) Yes, plenty of times, but I knew they were lying (see above), so I adjusted appropriately.

4) Trick question. If George Tenet lied to Dubya, his lie would be to one person, however it trickles down to the rest of us. This question really can't be answered without lots of legal wrangling over the definition of 'person'. (edit: I'm not suggesting the war was all Tenet's fault, it's just an example)

5) No, I don't believe that for a second. History is always kind, look at the Original Camelot vs the Kennedy Camelot, the former will rarely have a negative accusation made towards it. Knights in shining armour and all that stuff, ' Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!' And besides, people are already naming Aircraft Carriers and Airports and Mountains after Ronald Reagan. What he did for us that was already set in motion! Reagan didn't end the cold war, Gorbachev did. Gorby was the one who set in motion the thrust towards ending communism power over the USSR, and barely survived a coup in the process. He was the one who brought down the Berlin Wall, he was the one putting his life on the line, not some actor monkey-bottle-feeding-fuck that though he was Clint Eastwood paired with Conway Twitty! Reagan just happened to be there. Wait, that's the same argument freepers use against the Clinton economic "boom". :crazy:

She asked me what it was, I said it was nothing to worry about. White lie? Yes. Effective and useful causing no harm to her? Yes.

Replace the bee with Saddam Hussein.

Once you believe white lies serve a greater good, you're fit for politics.

to skip down to number four,because I can't think of anything I could possibly add to the comments already given here...but I'm a little surprised that so far everyone has agreed that lying to a group is worse then lying to an individual.

Lies to a group that lead us into unnecessary war are beyond the scope,but as a general rule,I would think lies to an individual are more harmful. Lies to an individual become personalized in a way that I think causes more intense pain. When you're part of a group,you've got the 'misery loves company' thing going on.