1 dead and 20 sick, they clear the shelves.. 450,000 smokers dead and

and 10's of millions sick and dying and 10's of Billions of dollars in medical costs.. not a squeek.. why isn't there a linkage here.. considering the child abuse involved with tobacco.. it is predominately children that start smoking.. the Tobacco corporations spent over 5 million dollars advertising related to children.. adults rarely start an addiction that costs as much a smoking. the children that are addicted are not mentally/emotionally developed to actually make a decision to start smoking. they are started by advertising images and peer pressure..

:grr:

and I threw out a bag of spinach.

Somehow, I think that would work very, very badly, given the examples of Prohibition and the War on Drugs

the average cost of medical care over the period of their addiction till they die for each smoker/ do the math per pack and add the tax.

however vehemently you appose prohibition, we shouldn't subsidize the corporations or be afraid to add the health care/death taxes on each pack. so i and other non smokers, and i was addicted for 20 years.. i know what it is like.. dont have to be enablers to the consequences of their addictions. OK.. smokers can smoke but i dont have to buy their Oxygen when their lungs so south.. or have to pay for their futile chemo therapy.. there is a difference in people to which shit happens and they need help.. and people who chose to participate in a deadly addiction for which there are obvious deadly consequences.. everything passable is needed to be done to prevent children from starting smoking.. but if they do smoke they have to pay the health tax too.

people who drive in a manner that is unsafe end up having to pay increased insurance premiums.. the same is needed for those who chose to live in a dangerous manner smoking a known health threat..

the issue is personal responsibility.. ONE to keep children from smoking and TWO pay as you go for the inevitable health problems of a voluntary unsafe activity.

I'm not being snarky, genuinely curious. Do you:
a) Rarely drive since your conscience won't allow you to engage in a voluntary activity that imposes excess cost on society at large
b) Just pick and choose which causes to get indignant about?

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

are you going to advocate that people who eat high-fat, high-cholesterol, and high-sodium foods pay higher taxes on what they eat, too? After all, that leads to high blood pressure, heart disease, kidney disease, stroke, and all sorts of other things that can run up costly medical bills.

Sorry, but I think your perspective is completely moronic.

cigarettes don't provide the high that booze and drugs do. when it is banned, and i believe it will be, people will not be clammoring to visit speakeasies where they can smoke. most smokers WANT to quit. granted, they don't want to be forced into it, but banning it is not going to cause the same level of rebellion that banning alcohol did.

100%...Black markets exist to satisfy demand...Where there is demand, there will inevitably be supply, regardless of whether something is illegal or not...Also, I don't believe it will *ever* be banned, as our pols on both sides of the aisle have waaaay too much to gain from it, monetarily speaking

When my ex was in prison, smoking was banned in that particular state's prisons. He and a fellow inmate then started a highly lucrative business selling cigarettes on the prison's black market. The other guy's girlfriend would smuggle in a carton and they would sell cigs for 20 DOLLARS APIECE!

Now, admittedly, that's in prison where people don't have a lot to do and need a stress reliever but on the other hand, it's also a place where people don't have a lot of disposable income. Out in the real world, you can bet that people would pay a lot for a smoke.

(Btw: 200 people get e coli infection every day but I guess they are only worried about the ones that may or may not get it from spinach)

The beef industry does, so they get to kill americans. The tobacco industry does, so they get to kill americans.

Shitty beef is a fact of life, shitty spinach is unusual. Remember that next time you're at the store.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

:toast:

It just is so disturbing to see these young kids start smoking when they have no idea of the hell they could be putting their bodies through just so they can look cool in HS.

My dad starting smoking at age 13, so he could be cool like his older brother. He died at age 41. Ironically the older brother lost part of his jaw & tongue to cancer - also smoking related.

Just as I did 30 years ago.

There's nothing like a kid with a cigarette to get people uptight. And teens LOVE making adults uptight.

and if they could keep their cigarettes from leaking smoke, i wouldn't have as big a problem with it.

Each car spills a witches’ brew of dangerous gases into the air each year, including an average of:
4,000 kilograms of carbon dioxide
300 kilograms of carbon monoxide
30 kilograms of nitrogen oxide
35 kilograms of ozone-forming hydrocarbons as well as lesser amounts of methane, lead and particulates."

http://www.rco.on.ca/factsheet/fs_b02.html

Thats 9625 pounds of exhaust per car per year. Nearly 5 tons!

....deal with that one before complaining about cigarettes as it's a much larger fish to fry in regards to the dangers of *secondhand smoke* :think:

however, that is not what we are talking about here.

Some of us don't want cancer and would like the oppurtinity to take a deep breath unimpeded once in a while.

without vehicle exhaust in our lungs all the livelong day...I live above a major street in a city, and I hate it. We all make our choices, and we all have to live with them, as well as those of others, I think. :shrug:

And I'm all for restructuring our society in a way where we use fewer cars and make the ones we do need much less polluting. Unfortunately for now most people need cars. Nobody needs to smoke.

that line between need and want is pretty slim...I don't konw if you can understand that, from a personal perspective

regardless :pals:

I just happen to have lost a few relatives (and a portion of my own lung capacity- thanks Mom!) to that blurred line, so I'm probably not as sympathetic as I generally am.

But either way, :hug:

My dad has emphysema from smoking 3 packs a day, forever...He's been smoke free for over 365 days now, and I'm really proud of him :)

:hug:

Cancer probably caused by smoking killed both of her parents before they hit 60, and she's 49 now. In all likelihood, she'll be gone before my son is grown, before I have my first grey hair, before she's old enough to retire. I get really mad at her for that sometimes.

I want to soon...and I will. I'm looking to have a baby in the next few years, and I definitely will before that. For now, I'm taking my prenatal vitamins and eating lots of folic acid containing foods. I know I can do it :)

So many women- including my idjit best friend- say "I'll quit when I get pregnant" and I could just strangle them. Do they realize how much damage they could do before the test would even show a pregnancy?

I'm trying to do a "planned pregnancy"...Once I feel I'm ready, I'll quit the cigs and drinking. Then, I'll get pregnant. I don't want that guilt or worry on my conscience, nope. :)

:hug:

an fyi, I have been told that smoking knocks out vitamin pills. If you really want the true benefits of taking them you should quit now.

I did it cold turkey, and have been smoke free for (aprx) 33 weeks now. Being pregnant, I can't stand the smell of cig smoke, makes me want to puke. Though I still have plenty of urges to smoke. It kinda screws with your head. I smoked for over 15 years, 1 pack a day. I hope I won't pick it up again.

We can quibble all day long about that but if people genuinely feel that cars are bad they can structure their lives so they won't need them. Society doesn't need to be restructured. People just need to make better choices. Where there's demand, supply will follow.

Which most of the US does...It ain't that easy...Even I can admit that.

In the US, if you don't like things you can move. People choose to live outside urban areas. No one is forced to live anywhere, generally.

Not necessarily...Some people cannot, absolutely cannot, afford the cost of living in an urban area, eapecially here in the Northeast. Meet reality, one of these days... :eyes:

In my old neighborhood I could walk or bike to most of the places I needed to go. There were bike lanes, trees for shade (vitally important considering the climate here) and straight roads built to get a person where they were headed. There were bus lines that took thier time but did go most places I needed to. I never even got my DL.

Out here (I had to move and had no choice about where I was headed) there are few mature trees, fewer bike lanes and all the roads bend back on themselves in such a way that they double or triple the distance one must travel to get someplace. Few of the stores even have a bike rack. There's one bus, which I can take to school, if I don't mind the much longer travel time, the decent possibility of arriving late, and the certainty of arriving with a queesy stomach and a headache from the stop-start motion of the bus and the smell of enclosed humanity. I sucked it up and got my DL, because it was the only option other than sitting at home.

There aren't that many these days, anyway. Especially not in California. And if you have a problem with someone smoking outside, well, too bad. Unless you either walk or bicycle everywhere you go, you're probably contributing far more carcinogens to the atmosphere than a dozen four-pack a day smokers.

It is never your right to stink up the air any more than it is your right to poop in the middle of a restaurant. The atmosphere aside, I don't want to have to walk through a filthy cloud of nasty smoke, ESPECIALLY when i am outside. For some strange reason, when I am outside, I actually have a natural expectation to breathe air.

A more correct argument would be "if you want to inhale filthy, poisonous smoke, go lock yourself in your own closet."

unless you happen to think people are supposed to enjoy breathing smog, that is.

And since tobacco is LEGAL pretty much everywhere, why, yes, it IS my right to smoke wherever I fucking well please, as long as there are no laws to the contrary--I don't smoke in restaurants, or shopping malls, or airplanes, or movie theatres, or hotel lobbies, but I WILL smoke on the street, in a bar (legal here), in my own home...and if YOU don't like it, too fucking bad.

...you're refusing to observe the bigger picture...it's far from clean air you're breathing...regardless of second hand cigarette smoke indoors or out...it's not off topic either...it's added information. :smoke:

"if you want to inhale filthy, poisonous smoke, ...just walk outside for a *breath o'contaminated air* :eyes:

Each car spills a witches’ brew of dangerous gases into the air each year, including an average of:
4,000 kilograms of carbon dioxide
300 kilograms of carbon monoxide
30 kilograms of nitrogen oxide
35 kilograms of ozone-forming hydrocarbons as well as lesser amounts of methane, lead and particulates."

http://www.rco.on.ca/factsheet/fs_b02.html

Thats 9625 pounds of exhaust per car per year. Nearly 5 tons!

grocer, or my classroom, or the next time I see somebody route thier exhaust into the passenger cabin with thier kids in the car.

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

these tobacco companies are the epitome of slime and greed. They have poisoned millions of people. They have altered their product to create faster addictions. They have added over 4000 carcinogens to their product. They have marketed their product to children. The practically own the U.S. government.

To defend these vile creatures, you have to be one of two things; A Republican or an Addict. Either way, your brain is malfunctioning.

To defend these vile creatures, you have to be one of two things; A Republican or an Addict. Either way, your brain is malfunctioning.


Each car spills a witches’ brew of dangerous gases into the air each year, including an average of:
4,000 kilograms of carbon dioxide
300 kilograms of carbon monoxide
30 kilograms of nitrogen oxide
35 kilograms of ozone-forming hydrocarbons as well as lesser amounts of methane, lead and particulates."

http://www.rco.on.ca/factsheet/fs_b02.html

Thats 9625 pounds of exhaust per car per year. Nearly 5 tons!

...the hypocrisy and hyperbole know no bounds..the carinogens from driving does damage to non smokers lungs and the second hand exhaust kills the whole planet...perspectives and priorities...oh the humanity.

i think we can all agree that improvements need to be made in many areas to help the environment. It's hardly the same argument. Last time I checked, no one needed a pack of cigarettes to get to work in the morning. Buses and cars are more handy. I think you are in the wrong thread.

It probably should be noted that, if you are a smoker, you WILL need a moving vehicle to transport you and your oxygen tank to the hospital, and later a hearse will be needed to transport you to your early grave. See - cars are necessary sometimes.

One big problem is that smokers have no earthly idea how nasty it smells and how long it lingers. It's sort of like cat owners - they live with the cat so they don't smell the cat. But when you visit them, YOU sure do!

:smoke:

Big Tobacco adds 464 chemicals to its cigarettes, some of which are carcinogenic. (Source: http://www.nascigs.com/Pages/Home.htm and my doctor.) I smoke American Spirit, which adds none of these.

I am an addict, but I am most decidedly not a Republican. We can debate the functional capacity of my brain at any time you wish. :hi:

eating commercially bagged spinach is assumed to be safe.

All other considerations aside, it's comparing apples and oranges, imo.

with regard to the OP's argument. you're exactly right.

Don't stop there!

could cause minor injuries or just inconveniences..

...a collective award for helping the not-so-bright eliminate themselves from the human gene pool?

Seriously, I have all the compassion in the world for smokers who are trying to quit, but these folks who are hell-bent on defending the behavior just remind me of these red-state folks who vote Republican even though it is Republicans who keep them in poverty. And they vehemently defend the Republicans. They would go to war and die for them. Why would you vehemently defend Big Tobacco and their product that is designed to kill you for a profit?????????

I fight for the right to do whatever the fuck I please to my body. I am a considerate smoker. For example, at the bus stop, I stand WELL away from the other people waiting so as not to bug them, even when that means I am at the end of the line getting on and have to stand for the next lurching stop-start 45 minutes. I do not throw my butts on the ground. But, if ONE more fucking idiot walks the 50 ft. of empty sidewalk over to stand next to me when they CLEARLY see me smoking and proceed to pull the childish "Ack ack", wave their hand in front of their face, and make snide comments about me smoking, I'll fucking go postal. I am considerate and intelligent enough to move away from someone wearing strong perfume (I am violently allergic) without the childish fucking displays I see day in and day out from militant non-smokers.

It just kills me how they try to justify smoking. I crack up laughing at these threads.

Darwin award. Good idea. :)

Its your choice, right?

It's different when a disgruntled farmhand torques off a turd in the vat of fresh spinach ready to go out in tomorrows market delivery.

Death by feces-induced kidney failure isnt so much your choice, now is it?

People do not choose to buy e-coli.

Unless they are science nerds.

Gee, I wonder why Dems can't get elected in this country...

Maybe because the media has painted every last dem to be just like YOU!