Any atheists out there?

I mean REAL atheists. No belief in god(s), karma, the supernatural, intelligent design, astrology, ghosts, reincarnation, psychics, etc.

I think we are the smallest minority in this country.

Anyone going through life rationally, scientifically, and skeptically? Anyone?

Not so much atheist as secular humanist or agnostic, but I try to make "rational," "skeptical," and "scientific" my adjectives.

Ironically enough, I have a huge fascination with the folklore of the supernatural (ghosts, all that shit).

Outside of that...

But I would not say I am an Athiest - more of an Agnostic or Deist.

I honestly think that no one can say they *know* that there is or isn't a God. There is no evidence on either side, so I'm not going to say "There is No God"

I do tend to believe in a prime mover, but beyond that I can't speculate further. What that is is beyond our understanding at this time - and there may not be. I can't say with surety that there is or isn't.

But the biblical God - son of virgin birth and rose from the dead - that I am highly skeptical of. For one, there is no evidence, only accounts from societies formed years after the actual event. And Josephus, the official recordkeeper of Roman-occupied Judea, made no mention of Jesus.

:thumbsup:

We just don't believe in any. Yes, there's a difference - the first is an assertive stance without proof, the second is a description of our mindset on the issue of belief itself, not gods.

'Strong' atheists, however, do assert that gods don't exist.

</psa>

but it's pretty down to earth.

I reach out to very low key congregational services at the Unitarian-Universalist "fellowship" -- it's not called a church because there is no minister -- here in Portland. This photo shows the deeply wooded area on which the building sits -- and it's not usually sprinkled with snow, but what the heck?



http://www.whuuf.org

Very satisfying, nice socializing, a good place for people of "mixed heritage" and my two overprocessed Jewish grandchildren. I think some Sundays at this place offer a nice balance. Besides that, they serve a dynamite pancake breakfast the second Sunday of every month. That's coming up this Sunday, October 8, 2006 around 9 AM Pacific Time.

Them sounds like fundie fightin' words, pardner.

--from one "real" atheist

:smoke:

like Douglas Adams called himself, but it sounded like someone trying to convert others.

Hell, on his merit alone, I would call myself an Adamsonian!

We can just tell everybody the real answer is 42!!

atheists.

And, as Dropkid shouted out at my cousin's kids baptism (at a greek orthodox church) "WHO'S THAT LADY WITH THE BABY??" (pointing to the 2 story mosaic of Mary holding Jesus). :rofl:

My daughters when they were little thought "church people" were some kind of bogey man.

I didn't mean to give them that impression, it was usually comments I made like "hey, we better get to sunday brunch before the church people get there", or "we need to water ski early on Sunday, before the church people get out".

When a friend asked my oldest if she'd like to go to church with her, the poor girl turned pale not knowing what to expect.

but i always equated it to it being two crowded at the time church "let out" (i say let because church seems a little too forceful)

I admire Taoists and those whose spirituality seems to create a greater good.

there are things I haven't yet made a decision about, but I think I'm leanin' toward being a "real" atheist.

and the Law of Odds is in and/or out of your favor.



Tikki

Religion and spirituality fascinate me but I don't really believe in any of it. It interests me that virtually every culture in the world has some sort of creation/death/afterlife belief and I see that as a way of trying to explain the unknown which people tend to fear.

I on the other hand really feel no need to have some sort of belief to explain what happens when I die, or why I'm here. Nor do I feel the need to have the threat of eternal hellfire to be a good person - I try to be a good person because it seems to make sense for me and my family and humanity, other creatures, life and the Earth in general.

But as for defining myself as an atheist, I don't know. I don't believe but I don't necessarily DIS-believe either. For all I know, there is a god or many gods - I just don't really see why it matters so much.

If God exists, and he is just - why would he leave salvation to a crap shoot?

Richard Dawkins has an interesting theory on that in his book "The God Delusion".

Basically, it is one of an evolutionary beneficial trait of believing in what your elders tell you without much questioning (e.g. if you swim in the river with alligators, you'll be eaten), that was in effect hijacked by mythology.

Good book and interesting hypothesis.

That'd be me.

But I do believe actions cause reactions.
as of Karma I didn't use to believe in it..But i do now
Psychics i believe in because I have done things I shouldn't be able to do.
I believe basically that there isn't anything magic about any of it.
It's just animal senses that some can hone in on.
just my

but that was kind of my last stop on the road to atheism. Have always like a good ghost story, although i don't believe in the supernatural and that inlcudes god

unavailable, just like God.

So I gave him up.

What I learned is that if you absolutely can't get thruough life without worshiping something, go for the Lincoln, but only the ones that had suicide doors.

I didn't even know that forum existed. Good place to go when feeling like you are the only one sometimes.

No belief in any god of any kind. No karma. No rapture points.

I do believe the human mind has enormous potential, however.

:hi:

:hi:
Though we are few and far between in real life, there are a number of us here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=263

I saw it in an above reply too. Nice to know of that group. See you there!

So I guess I'm a true non-believer.

Well I have no belief in the things you list...nor faeries, nor WMD's in Iraq.

So I guess I qualify for your 'real atheist' definition.

I should have followed Douglas Adams example and used "radical"

I can't even comprehend that. Not that I am putting it down or anything like that, I just can't comprehend the idea of not acknowledging something because I can't see it.

That's some SERIOUS believing you're into.

Dragons? Santa? FSM?

What WOULDN'T you believe in?

I'm just sayin.....

As I said, I'm not putting it down, just stating my opinion.

Some people look at their god as their force of life. If I believe that one of my gods is the air I breathe and that helps me sustain my life, do "true Atheists" not believe in my god then?

I don't understand what you mean, but I guess I don't need to. "god" is just a word to designate something outside of ourselves that we believe contributes to our life, either spiritually, mentally or physically. If I say that air is one of my gods, how can someone not believe that?

talks dirty to me in Chinese while I'm in the bath, how can someone not believe that?

..?

Sorry I tried to have a discussion. I really need to find a discussion board one of these days.

I honestly don't give a shit what anyone believes or not. It really means nothing in my personal life, but I do like to hear other people's opinions and beliefs. I guess this is not a good group of people to ask.

"I guess this is not a good group of people to ask."



I guess not.

:rofl:

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I didn't lose any sleep over it. I really would like to know more about Atheism though. Reading this thread it seems that most people are referring to western beliefs as their basis for their own non-belief. It would be interesting to me to have a real conversation with someone who is a true atheist who can relay their thoughts to me with more substance than throwing Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny out to me every other word.

is a "truth equivalence" argument based solely on the truth value of two ideas.

it does not take into consideration the tremendous PSYCHOLOGICAL effect of a god concept on the human psyche.

but they are related: i could imagine being very central in a young child's (at least in the western world) psyche around xmas time.

i think it says more about mature/immature belief.

The "santa claus" argument is a transparent attempt to try to make people who do believe in something other than science look silly. I would guess it works well while talking to a younger person who hasn't had the life experience to think for themselves, but it is a terrible reference to use when you are discussing things with a person who thinks beyond Santa and disembodied heads.

a disembodied head is no more outrageous than a vicious god (in the old testament) who kills his own son to prove how much he loves his own creation.

but the very personal level of belief (it's a definite psychological palliative when one takes into consideration the nature of existence) makes it almost impossible for the non-believer and believer to have a meaningful dialogue. the discourse 10 times out 10 devolves into name calling.

is as outrageous as my outrageousness...


or something like that....

I'm out of sorts...

Again...why am I apologizing.

I'm not the one who called some one a *ucking *ick!


But there you have it.

from what i've read.

NB: this discussion absolutely PALES in comparison to some unmoderated atheist discussion forums out there in internetland.

As I stated elsewhere, I don't really care what people believe or not. I might get a little defensive if people try to put me down for anything I personally believe, but it doesn't piss me off enough to get nasty.

I was born into a Catholic household and that is what I was taught for my first years of my life. I was still a young child when I began to question a lot of things I was taught and it didn't sit well with some people. I was one of the first of my friends to start showing some flaws in what we were taught and many of those friends got worried that I would even speak against that stuff.

Around the age of 12 I began researching different ideas to see if anything compared to what I believed. I had developed my own philosophies based on something that I didn't learn, but somehow inherently felt. For instance, I never heard of the term reincarnation, but in my mind I had thoughts of the soul reliving life over and over to eventually "getting it right". I was never taught reincarnation, but eventually I learned that there was a name for what I felt.

At the age of 42, I am still changing and learning and I believe that I can learn a bit from everybody, but some people seem to not want to share what they believe, they would rather just tell others they are wrong and talk about Santa. Go figure.

i used to participate in them way too much.

this is what i discovered:

many "atheists" out there are terribly fragile, insecure people who use their malformed understanding of atheism as a cudgel with which to bludgeon people.

many "believers" out there are terribly fragile, insecure people who use their malformed emotional state, their lack of understanding and knowledge, and fear of the unknowable as a cudgel with which to bludgeon people.

both sides are hilarious.

i feel for the person who wades into the general sewer of discussion that a "non-believer/believer" often deteriorates into.

especially if they are in earnest and kind like you are.

but what do i know, i'm on some "pay no mind" list around this place anyway.

I find YOUR language and posture appalling.

Completely appalling. And presumptuous.

I tried to explain non-belief.

"Johnnie" cannot understand how people don't believe in things which
they cannot see. There are infinite combinations of things which we
can imagine which we cannot see. My talking Lincoln head or the FSM
is no less bizarre than an avuncular/genocidal cloud god(times change)
or a turtle with the planet on it's back.

How does Johnnie pick which one Johnnie worships?

Who decides?

Your level of discourse is the one that sinks the conversation.

Not mine.

He knows how I am and he knows I wasn't bashing you on your beliefs. If you read our conversation, I was seriously trying to understand and you seemed to take it as an insult and started talking about disembodied heads talking dirty to you.

asthmaticeog is a great guy and a friend. I feel bad now.

Did I seem to take offense?

Did I start swearing?

You were making blanket statements.

This is a message board.

I forgot I was the lounge.

I forgot to preface my statements with "My dear Johnnie".

Whatever.

I'm playin hooky from work... I gotta go. I LOVE theists, atheists, whatever!

But I DO NOT like being called names for having a dissenting opinion.

I'm sure he's a great guy. I've never had a problem with him. People are touchy
about this subject. This thread should not be in the lounge.

I move that it be moved.

All in favor say Aye.

Bye.

People tend to read posts as they feel inside.

I understand that people are touchy over different things, but I like to discuss things... all types of things. I learn stuff that way. I don't see why this should be moved, why can't questions be asked in the lounge?

This thread will get deleted.

Your friend is going ballistic.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

What would you even know about a "modicum of respect"?

Nothing, obviously.

the milk of human kindness has begun to flow.

But that's just me. I expect people to get rattled when questioned, but that is human nature. I keep reading my original post and trying to find out where I came across as insulting. :shrug:

up to this point.

just because this person isn't part of the "touchy-feely" circle of mutual lounge admiration is no reason to be so nasty.

This is why I tend to stay away from here.

I forget that I'm in the Lounge sometimes.

Especially when the topic is so....topical.

Sorry Everyone.

but name calling accomplishes nothing.

My intent was not to defend a member of "the 'touchy-feely' circle of mutual lounge admiration," nor to dogpile (as the only one who posted suchlike, I'm puzzled as to where the dogpile is). Atheists reflexively lashing out with smuggery at even the gentlest questioning of atheism irritate the shit out of me.

You may be correct that my invective might have been less harsh if johnnie weren't a friend IRL, and you're absolutely right that name-calling accomplishes nothing. That Passingfair was engaging in a veiled form of name-calling in no way mitigates my error, so, to PassingFair, I apologize for using the word "dick." And nothing else.

i feel like an ass for pointing it out (more than once).

i'm kinda touchy lately myself.

i guess this is where my disconnect begins, as this place is largely theoretical to me (i do not know anyone here in real life) and i have no horse in the believer/non-believer race.

no hard feelings, i hope.

i actually kinda like you guys, to be honest, but i don't have the social skills to bring my lounge involvement to any stage further than "post and run" at this point.

I should've counted to ten. The profanity was uncalled-for.

One big lovefest.

:grouphug:


Now, who's non-gods can beat up who's non-gods? That will be the next discussion.

:spray: :loveya:

:P

:rofl:

Must not make double-entendre about my "magic pony"...

Must not make double-entendre about my "magic pony"...

Forgot about that one.

said in the absolute throes of frustration with another DUer:

"I never SAID you didn't have a magic pony!"

That was from a thread entitled, "Have you ever seen a ghost?" BTW, did I tell you how much class I think you have? :yourock:

but I think you've got loads of class too, johnnie. :hug:

I think you have a lot of class too :)

THAT'S funny! I have to go search for that - why do I think I have an idea of whom he was responding to?

And thanks. That's sweet of you to say, especially in a thread where I PA'd all over the place. :blush:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=5570041#5570217

:D

And wow, that was not at all what I thought it would be. People often perilously oversimplify burden-of-proof arguments. Now THAT'S one I would have stayed out of, myself. ;)

At best, you can accept the possibility of it existing.

To say it is acknowledgment is misleading; nothing has been shown to acknowledge.

No offense intended. Just stating facts.

As I said up there, I don't really worry about what other people believe or not. I *do* have a desire to learn of other's beliefs and philosophies, but you can worship Oreo cookies for all i care.

"At best, you can accept the possibility of it existing." Does a true atheist leave room for that possibility?

Implicit atheists do actually.

There is room for debate amongst the atheists about this, and the sort-of-majority, the implicit atheists, leave room for the possibilities, where the explicit atheists, usually by form of inherit contradiction in God, don't believe God can exist.

ACTUAL CONVERSATIONS
May ACTUALLY be had.
Without persons ACTUALLY being called
DICKS

....in the religion/theology room.


This has been a message from a MESSAGE BOARD.

Thank you.

:hi:

understanding as I can in there.... wait a second, actually since I worship satan (as all atheists do) I'm secretly softening them up for slaughter. :)

Now I'm getting the hell out of here and back to
poking people with my pitchfork back in GD and
in the real world, leaving behind the faint
scent of sulfur and a vague feeling of uneasiness
in my wake.

My work here is done.

Kiss!

It's funny that I am the only one who began a discussion on this thread instead of raising my hand for the original question. I really thought I could get a few answers (which I did). I really don't find this sub-thread to be that bad.

What would be the difference?

Again, at the risk of upsetting people in the "lounge"
Perhaps there are better rooms for this discussion.

:hug: :smile:

:hi: and whatever other appropriate smilie I should paste here....

In absolute scales, they are not *that* far apart, which is why sometimes implicit atheists are referred to as agnostic atheists, but the main difference lies in how much they believe the evidence.

The derivation of implicit atheism goes like this:

Belief is based on evidence.

There is a complete lack of evidence for God.

Therefore there is a complete lack of belief in God.

As in, the evidence paints a moderately fair picture of the world.

I can't speak for agnostics, but I believe they believe the evidence is insufficient to even make such a conclusion.

Edit: They're not agnostic, and certainly are atheist, but they are not a long way from it is the short answer. :)

Religion is a pernicious sham. There's nothing there that can't be explained by brain chemistry.

I think many of us are afraid of the consequences of "coming out," about our position on the matter of supernatural stuff. Personally, I have had many circumstances under which I've had to suppress my atheism, mostly for business and sometimes for family reasons, but I think there are lots of us.

I'd be funny if it was really a bunch of atheists sitting around not admitting it to ourselves.

I'd like to think there are lots of us though.

Thanks for getting me over 500 posts! Not that any of my posts were worth a damn, but still 500 worthless posts is something.

Thanks for introducing me to the atheists forum.

Thanks for letting me know I'm not so alone out here.

I also think there are many more of us than we realize. There are tons of athiest forums out there on the internets.

I've been religion-free since about 1978 or so. As for so-called "supernatural" phenom, I simply refer to it as undiscovered science.

You claim to be religion free. Do you define "god?" If so, how?

Thanks,

Floog

"God" is in my eyes a diety, all knowing all seeing that was created by man to explain what couldn't be explained. It is an extra-natural creature that gives certainty in a world that is ruled by chaos.
I know this may sound like bollocks, but it's late and I'm tired. I see reality as the sum of our perception. The universe exists behind our eyes. Man invented God mainly as a means to control others through fear of a superduper being that says "Obey me or I'll fucking spank you!"
I hope this explains a little about my position. Nobody has to agree with me. Frankly I couldn't care less. Asking if god exists is meaningless, kind of like asking "What color is Saturday?"

But you do define "god" as he, she or it has been defined by organized religion, which I know you hate.

;)

Am I no true Scotsman if I have my doubts about the non-existence of a god? :evilgrin:

I believe if there is salvation, it's in what we do, not what we believe. Our actions have consequences (some call it karma). Maybe I'm spiritual but not religious, although I'm not terribly spiritual.

I don't know if there's a higher power or the true nature. I guess one could say a hurricane is a higher power than all of us, right? I think ghosts are manifestations of our dreams, regrets, imagination, emotions.

I think there are some things that exist that cannot be explained scientifically. I think there is a common thread running through all life that connects us.

Then again, if there is karmic retribution, why has it yet to bite a certain resident of 1600 Pennsyvlania Avenue on the butt.

I believe that organized religion is the cause of much of the misery in the world, and so I won't be part of one.

Open-minded, but not buying into anything without substantive evidence it exists (so none of the things you listed, naturally).

Happily skeptical and religion-free, that's me!

and more: homeopathy, much naturopathy, other pseudo-scientific stuff.

The notion that because lack of a god is unprovable means that one should logically, rationally, or scientifically be agnostic is total bullshit.

That's like saying because there's no evidence that the cosmos is NOT controlled by a flying spaghetti monster or a gigantic flaming Bibo alarm clock, there is no reasonable basis for actively disbelieving that such beings exist.

Sorry, the burden of proof is with the believers. Faith is not evidence of even remote plausibility. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

And I don't even have to try hard. :hi:

:hi:

www.richarddawkins.net

Pass it around.

I've learned a couple of great new places to go in this thread already.

It matters what we do here and now that matters in any religion. Looking over your shoulder to see if god is watching you is the behavior of a five-year-old on a diving board; daddy look, look daddy, look, are you looking?

Count me in.

im open to the idea of ghosts and psychics to some extent(more psychics then ghosts though)

I see religion as simply another social construct of mankind. I refuse to believe in or not believe in a god or gods. Both are faith based decisions which I try to minimize in my life. Instead I live my life without the construct what so ever, I acknowledge the existance of the concept of a god because I know that exists but it is impossible by any current means to prove a gods existance so I live my life by being an impartial observer to the whole debate.

If you don't believe in god your no different than somone who does you are both buying into the exact some social creation but taking different sides.

I don't believe in Karma, though I do think you reep what you sew not in any spiritual sense however. Its like when your climbing the career latter of whatever you do, don't be a backstabing asshole because you meet the exact same people up the latter as you do on the way down.

I don't believe in the supernatural, everything is natural we just don't know how to explain it yet

Astrology? wow ever key stroke I make on this subject is an increment of time I've wasted...

ghosts? every single time somone has told me a room is haunted I do my best to insult whatever ghost they say lives their. I swear I curse, and try to offend it, and even spend the night there but I've yet to see anything convincing in my life.

Reincarnation: wouldn't that be nice... heh it must be comforting to legitamitely believe in a concept like this. I've not existed longer longer than I have existed, I guess not existing will be like going back to that all over again.

psychics: to what degree? like tarrot cards and stuff? I think there is a lot to the human brain we don't yet understand, what we are and aren't capable of subconciously will be much clearer in the coming decades.

I don't believe in gods or anything supernatural.

Many people profess to believe in God, but if you probe their beliefs they usually turn out to be impersonalists. That is to say, they believe in some kind of supreme energy, but they do not believe in God as a person, having a transcendental form, name, qualities and pastimes.

clothing and food preparation rules, the servitude and covering of females, the wanton belief that my religion is better than yours, the amassing of wealth of the churches that rule countries where the people have little or nothing -- and the wars that are commited in the name of religions of the world.

Aside from that, the uplifting concepts of religion are man-made and appear to be broken every day. Leaves this 67-year-old woman more than a little cynical.

Yesterday, at the hair salon, this young woman engaged me in one of those inane conversations with no proof and no end which I have endured since I was a youngster. She told me she believes that "Man wrote down the exact words of God in the Bible." I told her, very sweetly, that we could sit here for eternity, and she would never convince me that her interpretation was true.

But I tried to leave her with this fact. Man inevitably must try to make some sense of the three imponderable questions we face:

"Who are we? Why are we here? Where are we going?" So, men worship the sun, the stars, an animal, or several animals, or a rock, stream or river. Then they moved on to other men. But until someone actually returns from the dead (Jesus doesn't count, sorry...) I can't swallow her ideas.

She quieted down pretty quickly after that and didn't open her mouth again.

Wish I'd never made that original post. x(

but for Europeans, not Americans. Most Americans *do* believe in a "Christian God"--an actual transcendental being. The "energy" God is a belief much more likely to be held outside of the U.S.

None of this sodding ID for me, but at least the others don't (often) harm.


As for the exact nature:
Special derivation, implicit atheist. :patriot:

Oh yeah, I would like to point out at this stage that chemistry is completely awesome, as is physics.

Sept for the fact that I sorta follow buddhism.

"this country".

Atheists (or at least non-believers) are far more common in Europe than in the U.S. They're often amazed that our politicians have to profess their faith, since it's not relevant to the job.

He pondered if it was due to the face we are a land of immigrants and religion was the only thing people had in common or the thing that reminded people of their homes/heritage, so they clung to it much harder.

Not sure I buy his idea, but don't have any real good hypothesis of my own to throw out there.

I just know that American fundies and their "intelligent design" crap, and their obsession with everyone else's sex lives, and their desire to put Jesus in public schools (etc., etc.)...

makes me go :scared:

No belief in god(s), karma, the supernatural, intelligent design, astrology, ghosts, reincarnation, psychics, etc.

Atheist in a house of females.

I am first consort to the empress, I hold no one and no thing in higher regard.

What do you want for dinner tonight PassingFair?

Dread.

I never argue with anyone.

Ever.

You know that.

I claimed "strong atheism" for about 10 years, defended it pretty well, I think.

Went through a few more years of living and study, and now I'm hookin' up with God as best I can. I don't go to any sort of meeting (although I wouldn't rule out anything for the future), but I think religion, for all its harm, is absolutely necessary for masses of people. I would hope that tolerant and thoughtful belief systems can grow, and fundy belief systems will diminish.

we seem to be heading in the exact opposite direction. The leaders of organized religion see it more and more as a way of choosing up sides, to the ultimate detriment of all parties.

Religion absolutely necessary for masses of people? What does religion provide that people need? I honestly can't think of a single thing.

Even Muslims (who are frequent targets for Christian tirades and constitutional abuses) are more trusted than atheists according to recent polls. If someone built a gulag and started stuffing us into it, there would be even fewer complaints than there are about Guantanomo.

When people used to complain about the "godless communists", I always felt it was the godless part they were most upset about.

And as stated above, one of the most despised groups.

:shrug:

For obvious reasons.

Thank you!

Call Me Wesley
DU Moderator