Uh oh. Just when you thought smoking threads went by the wayside...

:eyes:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2461175

i predict 300+ replies by dinnertime

jesus.

People are actually agreeing with banning cigarettes.

:rofl: :rofl:

Hell, in NYC the absurd taxes on cigarettes has resulted in people buying them cheap down south, bringing them north and selling them for $5 a pack on the street, because they're over $7 pack legally.

...when the fuck did it become ok for the government to decide wtf I do with my body?

I smoke.
I drink.

Deal. With. It.

Freedom is SO 20th century.

Where do these people think they are? :)

Except, of course, for the things that the various political moralizers of the right and left think you shouldn't.

...be its slave and die from it. YEAH!!! Revel in that freedom.

Jesus christ.

Few people consumed alcohol during prohibition, though the exceptions were highly publicised. Yes, I know about the gangsters. Of course, unlike alcohol, tobacco cannot be made in anyones bathtub.

I guess it depends on who you believe. Fun Facts

The people who were Pro-Prohibition had many ideas on just how 'drinkers' should be punished:

One suggested that the government distribute poisoned alcohol beverages through bootleggers (sellers of illegal alcohol) and acknowledged that several hundred thousand Americans would die as a result, but thought the cost well worth the enforcement of Prohibition. Others suggested that those who drank should be:

* hung by the tongue beneath an airplane and flown over the country
* exiled to concentration camps in the Aleutian Islands
* excluded from any and all churches
* forbidden to marry
* tortured
* branded
* whipped
* sterilized
* tattooed
* placed in bottle-shaped cages in public squares
* forced to swallow two ounces of caster oil
* executed, as well as their progeny to the fourth generation.

It's true. What they say. You know. "There's nothing new under the sun."

And I don't believe those things were even seriously considered. Besides, you have not refuted my premise that prohibition stopped people from drinking. Again, it was not without unintended consequence, but it did do what it set out to do. Now as a matter of policy, I do not agree that there was a need to prohibit all drinking and that if a need arose that writing it into the Constitution was the way to go.

The link you posted leads to a dead end asking for registration or something.

Sorry about the link - it works through googling "people drinking during prohibition" and is a university paper.

But here's another:Prohibtion A Failure
Lots more on the internets - unless maybe you're on different 'tubes' than I am?

Why don't you just quote Ann Coulter?

If Cato told me water was good, I'd consider whether to stop bathing.

How about this one?

Sheesh, you're picky!

edited to repeat: "Where you around during Prohibition?"

Proving I wasn't around in the '20s proves nothing and I think you know that.

My aim was simply to ascertain what frame of reference you were bringing to the table.
Admittedly I'm one of the oldest folks around here - but I only know my dad did a little rum-running then because he told me so. Lighten up.

They should be informed of this. I'd be interested to see some of your research suggesting that prohibition worked and did not lead to more severe soial problems, because I've never seen of that info.

Of course, unlike alcohol, weed cannot be made in anyone's bathtub. Prohibition on that is going swimmingly, isn't it? I don't understand how it's so easy to acquire though, since it can't be made in anyone's bathtub.

Well done. :)

Facts are facts regardless of the hyperbole.

Grass (as it was known in the '70s) grows naturally in most of the country. Still it is pretty hard to get. I can't seem to find it at Rite-Aid even though it is a drug store. Not at Sears either. No cannibis vending machines at the restaurant. If I want it I have to find some shady character and risk arrest, poisoning or robbery to get it. In fact, if I decided to have a joint, doobie or reefer I have no idea who to call or where to go. (This is actually a cause for concern since despite being a n/s I could still get cancer simply from being in Ohio. If that happened I would want the nausea-fighting power of wacky-tebbacky.)

I submit it is hard to get. Further, unlike tobacco, grass is not addictive. Cigarrettes do not deliver enough nicotine to be worth smoking if you could only get them once in a while. Without being addicted, people would simple not seek them out.

There you go. I believe those all are accepted academic sources, and there's a lot more out there. I still haven't seen any info from you.

Alcohol Prohibition and Drug Prohibition:
Lessons from Alcohol Policy for Drug Policy> by Harry G. Levine and Craig Reinarman (2004), Amsterdam: CEDRO.

Alcohol Prohibition Was a Failure by Mark Thornton (O. P. Alford III Assistant Professor of Economics at Auburn University).

The Effect of Alcohol Prohibition on Alcohol Consumption: Evidence from Drunkenness Arrests
post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/miron/papers/drunk_revised_for_el.pdf

THE EFFECT OF ALCOHOL PROHIBITION ON ILLICIT-DRUG-RELATED CRIMES *
www.journals.uchicago.edu/JLE/journal/issues/v48n1/480103/480103.web.pdf

___________
I only brought in the weed angle, as a response to your strawman. Seriously, weed is not hard to get, or maybe it just ties back to the adage of "don't trust anyone over 30." When I was in HS, it was easier to get weed than alcohol.

The people who first said "Don't trust anyone over thirty" are now in their sixties and seventies.

Yes, I'm aware of what generation coined that phrase, but honestly weed isn't all the hard to find, especially if you're young. Maybe it's different where you live, but it's pretty easy to find around here, and almost never involves dealing with sketchy people.

Also, I haven't seen anything from you regarding the failure of prohibition, as an urban myth. I backed up my side. How come you can't back up yours?

For one thing, the rate of alcoholism-related deaths increased EVERY YEAR between 1920 and 1927; for another, prohibition spawned massive organised crime empires that diversified into drugs and prostitution after repeal (which is hardly a success, I should think).

http://www.druglibrary.org/prohibitionresults1.htm

My husband's grandpa got so mad at Rockefeller for raising the cigarette tax, he started growing his own tobacco!

I agree with what others have said on this thread,but that isn't the point.
I get a tad libertarian about this. How on earth is it in line with the Founding Fathers ideals to
BAN substances like alcohol and tobacco??
Don't everyone get distracted with the arguments about what works and does not work. It should not be an issue in the first place, because no one has a right outlined in the Bill Of Rights to take away another's decision making ability or free will.

and funnily enough, part of the script takes place in Russia, where Prohibition was also in effect around that time. Many historians believe that it contributed to the demise of Nicholas II, since Russia's economy depended so heavily on vodka sales. It's a big part of my story. You are right in that EVERYONE was not drinking - in fact, it certainly decreased alcohol consumption in suburbia. Since alcohol is not addictive for most people, obeying the law came a lot easier. BUT, anyone who really wanted it could get it, no matter where they lived. And I think the same would be true if cigs were banned. Some people would obey the law, but cigarettes are very addictive and I suspect many smokers would be traveling to the moon to get them if they had to!

Cannibis in particular. Anyway, cigarettes are like the junk food of tobacco. If your really want to smoke, have a nice Dominican cigar, not the equivalent of by-the-gallon vodka.

Anyone who thinks that it's just peachy to pass laws that legislate what adults may and may not do when their actions can harm no-one but themselves has NO RIGHT WHATEVER to call himself a liberal.

:)

:::Fuzz looks at his box of Partagas Serie 4 No 2's.:::

To me, it is ludicris that it is illegal--but it is. I don't care, either, because it's a wonderful, benificial plant.

Who gave anyone else the right to tell me to have good taste, or to legislate it?

:rofl:

:shakeshead:

Glad I stayed away from that one.

Probably worth another crack. Hey, it's working so good for other drugs. :)

ask how they planned to enforce a ban and what kind of punishments they wanted handed out. However, a little voice said "don't go there".

n/t

that sometimes people just want to have an argument...remember that old Monty Python bit?

:-)

They most certainly do.

x(

;-)

:D

No, not really.

if the answer is yes, you can be head camp counselor :P

:eyes:

They actually stopped fighting for a little while when Congress voted to suspend habeus corpus...

If y'all think that giving away your free will to a huge (red) corporation that enslaves you to its expensive product that will kill you is somehow freedom of choice, then nothing I say will matter.

Yah know, that perspect puts you exactly in line with Bill O'Reilly, Trent Lott and Rush Limbaugh.

:bounce:

:eyes:

sorry pal. i'll put up MY LIBERAL creds against yours anyday

Anyway, I said you agreed with Limbaugh. I didn't say you were Limbaugh. That is unless there is something else you want to tell us.

Veteran (put my $$ where my mouth is)
Traveled to DC to protest war BEFORE it started
Canvassed for MANY local Dems
Organized local protests
Organized DU "Information Campaigns"
Give $$ every year, ALL year to progressive campaigns
Worked (and continue) door to door for 'get out the vote' campaigns
Volunteered at Planned Parenthood to escort women in for treatment
Smoke a pack a day.

on edit: I notice you are NOT a DU Activist Core member

Charter Member of Worcester Co. Rainbow Coalition, 1988.

Jesse Jackson campaign committee same year and in Dukakis' home state. I stood for 8 hours on primary day in my little red-neck town with a Jesse Jackson sign.

MassPIRG canvasser 1986-88.

Campaign volunteer for progressive alternative to DINO state rep. 1988. We lost big time. There was a lesson there.

Leicester MA Democratic Town Committee 1988-1990.
-re-elect Kerry project
-voter registration drive
-campaign worker for liberal selectman

Volunteer law clerk for Cleveland Works Inc., NPO designed to get people out of poverty by revoming barriers to employment. 1991-1995

Didn't do shit while working at my work-constantly job in Toledo, but I did see Bill Clinton speak for what that is worth.

2000 Al Gore election effort (just moved, not much of an effort in place actually. Wrote a lot of letters)

2002 Campaign worker for local state rep race against one of the most corrupt legislators in Ohio. Canvassing and cash donations and LTTE. We lost. There was no gubernatorial campaign for our side to speak of.

2003 Clark for president committee, that didn't last long.

2004 County's most generous D. donor with wife and I each donating Federal maximum plus Fingerhut for Senate
-door to door canvassing. sign locations. made cartoons for local D paper.

2005 charter member of new D club. Judicial election with lit. drops and LTTE.

2006 County's 2nd most generous after wife. Working mostly with local candidates this year. Also gave federal max. to Sherrod Brown who just fucking HAS to win, goddammit. Also pretty generous to other candidates. Made photos for D paper. Distributed D paper.

I shoot about 100 rounds of either 0.38 or 9mm per week. This is Ohio.

This isn't a pissing contest. We do what we can. Others do what they can. Hopefully we will win and end this war.

I win.

;)

touche

Dude, don't you know that the blue states are the ones with serious smoking restrictions? Except for AZ.

I blow raspberries at you.:hi:

not all tobacco companies are "red" (the Vector Group, which owns Liggett Corp., donates almost 90% to Democrats, for instance). You might as well argue against buying gasoline on those grounds; oil companies donate primarily to Republicans, air pollution from automobile emissions is a major contributing factor to asthma, emphysema, and lung cancer in urban areas (there are several studies that show a correlation between these ailments and air quality)...so, if you happen to drive, you're a tremendous fucking hypocrite. Mote and beam.

I'll stop driving when everyone does. Right now I'm not going to be a martyr as one car less on the road and me without a job will not help the environment or hurt the Rs in any measurable way. Unlike tobacco which costs the smoker resources, I need to drive to make a living. This is the sticks here, not NYC, so there is no public transit. Driving is a way to get around, not a prolonged vehicle for suicide. Anyway, you're changing the subject by making this an ad hominem attack, a strategy worthy of Rove. I'd only be a hypcrit if I was a smoker and was condemning smokers. I'm not a smoker and am really only condemning the habit, therefore, even if I drive a Hummer (which I do not) I am not a hypocrit on that point.

Didn't know about Ligget. Still, they are pretty small potatoes in that business.

You're the one with the goddamn beam if you still think that this is about free choice.

I happen to think that if someone wants to and their actions cause no physical harm to anyone else, they should be free to smoke, drink, shoot heroin, snort coke, gamble, patronise prostitutes, or anything else. And I think that anyone who seeks to limit that choice on piously Puritanical "moral grounds" is a worthless fuckwit.

And pointing out that by driving every day you're engaging in an activity which has statistically proven negative effects on public health, and which supports pro-GOP corporations, isn't an ad hominem; it's a simple fact.

I oppose smoking on public policy and medical grounds, not puritanical ones. The whole red industry thing was only a side note anyway.

The issue is not state control vs. personal control. The issue is state control vs. corporate control. Individual choice simply is not a factor no matter how much we wish it were otherwise. Once you "choose" them they take your choice away, not with clunky laws but by turning your own boody chemistry against you. I understand the whole personal freedom ideology and sympathize with it. Still ideology is no match for corporate greed.

In my own case, I smoke maybe five to ten cigarettes a day, and I roll my own with additive-free 100% Turkish tobacco manufactured by a small independent tobacco company. When I buy manufactured cigarettes, they're made by a small independent German tobacco company. None of my money is going into the pockets of RJR or Philip Morris. I look upon smoking as a pleasurable indulgence, not as a habit I'm chained to, much the same as someone who smokes a few bowls of English mixture of an evening, or who has a few cigars with a glass of brandy after dinner.

:rofl: :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

how the HELL can you argue with our Brook???

after all, THIS is her.....



:D

You damn well better grow your own fags.

I've always loved New England boyz. :blush:

Except for the ones that weren't, of course.

'LAYING DOWN'?????

'STANDING UP'??????

:rofl:

for your martinis?

I grew up in Wisstah, Mass. Way-ah ya headed? Best way is to hop on 9 and just go west. The traffic will be wicked backed up but only until ya pass 128, then it's easy goin' through Framin'ham, Shoosberry then Wistah. Actually, my town is Less-tah, just west of Wiss-tah. Just pahk ya cah anywhay-ah. We don't stand on fohmality hee-ah.

Pass me a grindah and a Polah oringe dry. Oh yeah and some of that brown bread that comes in a can.

Sorry, they-ahs no smokin' section in any bah or restah-rant they-uh.

My family didn't speak that particular dialect, - though they were (and thus, my heritage, is) quite thoroughly New Englander. They owned Martha's Vineyard and the Elizabeth Islands at one time. Several taught at Harvard. They founded Sandwich and GGrandaddy was a Boston banker. Daddy was born at the summer place on the Cape.

It's all an 'accident of birth', I grant you - but I do have my creds. :)

...Boston across to Worcester with it trailing off by the time one gets to Pittsfield. There's a trace in Rhode Island, but the dropped Rs in particular seem to be missing from other parts of N.E.

I mean, c'mon people. Do you really believe matcom, WillPitt, haruka, et al are actually on OUR side? Wake up, people! Before it's too late.



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