GOTHS ? Someone explain them to me.

I think beyond the adolescent dress up aspect there used to be some anarchic philosophy? What is it with these guys?

no reply. I should change the thread title

At least Marilyn Manson understands me!

its an outcry against conformity, in japan during the week you see everyone in uniform, but they get really wacky on the weekends

I once dressed up as a goth with my real(tm) goth friend.. Didn't look that good..

asians and goth doesn't mix :p

We're to old (and frankly too poor and style-less) to keep it up as a full-time lifestyle.

We mostly enjoy the music. And, in that, more of ther old-school Goth bands; Sisters of Mercy, Bauhaus, Killing Joke, Psychic TV, etc.

Plus, we love vampire movies, particularly the low-budget Italian ones of the 70s, in which everyone was either dead or a hot naked lesbian.

Oh, and nobody knows how to hold a formal High Tea than the Seattle Goth Community, such as it is.

...We had like a month of movies on NetFlix, watching everything in the genre of the Lesbian Vampire Movie. :)

I liked Bauhaus when I was feeling more alienated.

who are friends of my kids, are all very bright and artistic and looking for an outlet for their creativity. They don't feel that they fit. I think that much public education, while I support many aspects, does not address the needs of very bright, creative kids needing an artistic or musical outlet. The schools tend to address the needs of children who fit into the mold..they learn by rote and reading and testing, while others learn best by doing or acting or drawing or through music. I understand that "labeling is bad" and definitions are nebulous, so please, just allow me a considered opinion. I note that another poster talked about music being a unifying force; and movies as well (I think it reinforces the point).

I really like all the kids I know who call themselves "Goth". And now I officially sound as old as the hills. I'll slink away...

Was a straight-A student in florida, where the school had small classes and very intensive musical programs. And the teachers were passionate. Hell, even the kids were never mean. Moved to PA, dropped to the point where I got my GED in the end.

I will not move my kids around that much, when I am a parent. If they are doing very well in one area, I'm not going to try my luck.

I think that it is fine for someone expressing their individulality to want to wear black and dark make up. How often was that their idea though? Aren't they, in most cases, just imitating someone else.
The same thing goes for people who dress "counter culture". I observed this at a pro marijuana event that I attended. I saw the counter culture clones look at my husband and I like we were not free thinkers because we chose to dress more mainstream.
If you are dressing to fit in with a group, isn't that anti individualistic?

I think it gives them a comfort zone of people who think and act as they do. And an outlet for some kind of expression that they miss in their everyday lives. There is always conformity in "nonconformity". They are looking for community.

because I don't look like any of the standard accepted cultural sub-groups. Some of my friends are hippies, but I don't dress like one, some of my friends are punks but I don't dress like one, some of my friends are straight, normal people and I don't dress like one of them either. I'd identify my style as either "working class dada" or, more realistically, "slob new-vo." (being overweight and working two jobs severely cramps one's ability to dress the way one wants.)

Remember Johnny Rotten? After the Sex Pistols broke up, he was always going off about how disappointed he was in the following generations of punks, because they all willingly enslaved themselves to some codified fashion template. He thought that the whole message of punk was to invent your OWN identity, including the way you dress, not to just crib notes from some established style manual. And he was right: most punks since then dressed like Sid Vicious, with a few minor variations. None of them have really followed an individual path. (Except for the SST punks who gave nary a shit about style- god bless 'em.)

That's the trouble I have with goths: they THINK they're "breaking away from the pack," but their look is as corporate-sponsored and codified as any hip hop kid's. And they're more pretentious about it, unlike the hip hoppers, who'll willingly admit that they're dressing "like" the pop stars they see on MTV, because that's the style. A goth would never admit that she is imitating a picture she saw of Siouxsie Sioux.

And vampires, The Smiths, and darkness bore the shit out of me! I know what real, suicidal depression feels like, and I'm always trying to find a way to AVOID it, not wallow in it.

I'm not trying to shit on anyone's lifestyle, I'm just callin' it the way my puny malfunctioning brain sees it. Hell, my wife is an ex-goth, and we get along grrrrreat. I make fun of her Nick Cave, Cocteau Twins, and Einsterzende Neubaten (okay, everything on 4AD!) CD's and she makes fun of my Minutemen, Zappa, and Half Japanese CD's. See, it all works out in the end!

I'm attracted to the dark things in life. We're not "evil" or "anti" anything. We just like dwelling on death.

That's the same thing the Egyptians did. We're not that weird. We just like the night more than the day.

I was born with natural Goth coloring; I just assumed y'all wanted to be more like me. Plus I have like 57 Fatal Diseases. I do not recommend being that much like me.

As for the Egyptians ... they didnt dwell on death. They dwelled on continuing the life they liked so much forever. It's a pretty common misconception that ancient Egyptians were death-focused, but that's because of our cultural/religious bias - just like those Victorian archealogists insisting that obvious depictions of vegetation in Malta were really weapons and proof of a masculine society.

I can't presume to speak for Kephra, but to "dwell on death" doesn't mean to elevate Death to an obsession. Sure, plenty of people affect Deathliness, but that's not what it's about, either.

Imagine if you came very close to death; it would make life seem all that more precious. That's a big part of "dwelling on death." To realize how unlikely, absurd, and unbelievable it is to be alive. Most of the philosophical warriors throughout history have taken this idea -- Miyamoto Musashi ("Refresh your mind with thoughts of death") and Julius Caesar (Morituri salutamus -- "To those about to die, we salute you!") come to mind. So were Caesar's sometime adversaries, the Gauls, whom he conquered only after a long and psychologically draining siege.

Young people who get "into Goth" are usually disaffected because (in part) they see their friends becoming empty-headed just to find social acceptability. This can be extremely alienating for anyone, let alone a teenager. Putting on Goth airs as a fashion statement can be their way of "striking back".

Anyway, that's just my take on the positive side of it. There's also the idiots, but so what? Idiots have a way of growing up and out of it when they're old enough to hide it from the world. As long as they're nice to their families and kids, s'alright!

--bkl

Unfortunately. I suppose it's interesting and glamorous if it's happening to someone else.

It's fine if they want to imitate my coloring - it's better than when they just called me Snow White!

I'd love to be goth but I tend to go to bed early. :D

annoy the middle age adults. ;-) I like the Goth teens I know. I think they have fun with their clothes and I think they enjoy shocking folks.

I've never enjoyed myself as a man more than when I was being taught how to wear makeup from my goth women friends. ;-)

There's a HEAVY Romance vibe going though the movement.

there is also a goth/sm fetish bondage crossover. I will spare you the details. If only teens were into goth then there wouldn't be all these goth nightclubs that serve alcohol...

I know people in their 40's who are still punk.

The ones I happen to know are teens but my cousin is Goth and has been for 15 years. I don't keep in touch with her for different reasons. I'm sorry if I implied that Goths are only rebellious teens. I do know differently.

If you are more comfortable with the dark of the night than the light of the day, then you are a goth.

If you know what Johnny Depp means (and also William Blake) by "some are born to sweet delight/some are born to endless night" then you are a goth.

If you count vampires and werewolves as cousins to hug and kiss the next time you see rather than things to be feared you are a goth.

corollary: If you think Anne Rice writes about your family tree, you are a goth.

If you find comfort rather than anxiety in cemetaries, you are a goth.

If you snicker at "The Cabinet of Dr Caligari" as a comedy of errors, you are a goth.

If you understand Marilyn Manson and wish to discuss the deeper issues of life with him over beer, you are a goth.

If you are comforted by the notion that spirits of those who have died before use visit us all the time, you are a goth.

If you thought "Dark Shadows" was the ultimate fun in TV when you were 7, you are a goth.

If you percieve the preciousness of the life around you every minute of every day, you are a goth.


Edit: Scoring. Count the number of "Yes" answers and score accordingly:

1-3. Buuzzzzzz. Sorry, go back and read more Cthulu comic books.

3-5. You are a fledgling goth. See Khephra on what to use for learning tools on your path to enlightenment.

5-8. You are goth. May the the darkness keep you and protect you, providing the emotional intimacy you require.

8-10. You are Buddha. We should all sit and learn at your feet.

But I'm proud.

I wore black trench coats after the shootings, so I guess I get extra points, huh?

LOL! :D

Is there anything I left off my checklist? I'd be happy to re-edit.

Aren't you supposed to be travelling?

edit: yes, black trenchcoats earn you Bodishatva (sp?) status.

work has caused me to be more restricted than I thought.

I was curious, b/c KoKo01 starting a thread looking for you, like you were making Pitt stops or something. It would be fun. You would like Short Bus and Dolo Amber, .... me too. ;-)

back in the 80's, before it was a fashion statement or had a dippy name.

My American friends and I went to an international school, and one day the idea of a "national costume" came up. At the time, since all of us yanks that were there had them, we decided it was black trenchcoat, white t-shirt, jeans, and black combat boots.

Many years later, we discovered we were mafia. :shrug: Who knew?

we called it The Quadrophenia Look, after The Who movie. But I don't remember anyone else who calls it that now.




Course The Matrix has taken that look to a whole new level. :shrug:

But I'm so ... twee!

Plus, damn near every goth I've ever met has smoked enough for half a dozen lifetimes.

I'm really much too old to be able to be a proper goth, but there's a "proto-philosophy" they have that I share. Like Huxley's "perennial philosophy", it's a philosophy that doesn't require intellectual articulation.

If you perceive the preciousness of the life around you every minute of every day, you are a goth.

Yep. And nope. I'd say, "you are a Human". What I'd actually say is, "Oh! You do understand!"

"If that's Goth, then gosh darn it, I'm a Goth, and I'm darn proud!"
(Cue patriotic music, American Flag, cute little blonde vampire children reciting the Pledge of Allegiance.)

--bkl

tattooed all over. I hung out in "goth" clubs in the 80's and early 90's in CA but dont care to hang in clubs anymore. I wear all black with black hair because it asthetically pleases me and that is the only reason, nothing profound. Not trying to be an "individual" or whatever reason people think just because I don't look "normal". I never have problems with people, everyone is always super-nice to me though little kids stare. . I don't understand why people would worry why I look like I look or try to psychoanilize it. I like black clothes and black hair, very simple. I am also a Navy vet and gay to make things even more strange. thats all.

radical!

:hi:

mine are mild compared to others...trust me.

But the goths I knew in high school were just pretentious poetry-spewing cosmetic addicts whose presence bored the shit out of me. The guys tried to appear as "Deep" and "enigmatic" and "misunderstood" as they could to try to get laid (which only worked on incredibly gullible chicks), which was really annoying to observe....I had a buddy who started dressing in lots of black and wearing make up and listening to the Cure and I had to dump him, cuz he kept going on about "being acquainted with the night" and "I wear black on the outside cuz it's how I feel on th inside," and developing a faux-british accent and pretending to be a vampire....which didn't endear him to me, as it seemed so laughably pretentious. Plus, as a guy who has suffered from severe clinical depression most of his life, I took his Cultivated Sad Death-obsessed Pose as an insult. Cuz he had nothing to be sad about....

Most of them think that they're such non-conformists, but they have totally embraced a "hipper" form of conformity. Same bullshit, different names.




Ah, but to each his/her own I guess. If it makes you happy.....

Of course, there was no Beat "movement" at all. The originals, Kerouac and his friends, were past their prime (the events in "On the Road" occurred in the mid-40s, but the book wasn't published till 1957) when the media created a movement of wanna-bes, who wore berets, black clothing and white lipstick, and hung out in coffeehouses. This bore little resemblance to the original Beats, who did little of that except drink heavily and get high, in a literary atmosphere.

There were genuine (anti-establishment/war) hippies in the 60s, but by the 70s, most were just kids who liked to dress the part.

Being a goth is okAY, I guess, if yer into that shit...The freaks of LA in the mid-60's actually were pretty daring for their time (they weren't hippies or beatniks...read David Walley's "No Commercial Potential" for more info. Plus, the radicals of the 60's ACHEIVED things, and the beatniks were capable of great, unprecedented, rule-breaking art in the fields of literature and music.) But really, these phenomena have pretty much nil to do with each other.

"Goth" is just another conformist group to belong to.

My wife was a goth in the 80's and she's decent enough to be ashamed about it nowadays; she realizes she was into it because she had a bad upbringing and wanted attention from her parents, who were going through a divorce when she as in her teens. I've seen pictures of her from back then and I doubt I would have even talked to her had I seen her in her leather jacket and corpsepaint and Nick Cave T-shirts- I woulda laughed at the obvious cry for help she was presenting to the world.

But, you know, whatever floats yer boat...To paraphrase Lester Bangs, I just prefer people with some Looney Tune in their souls. (I'm not ashamed to be happy.)

I knew a guy back in the mid 1980s who was so into it, haunted the Albany club scene in 19th century garb, powdered face and all. And he was one of the nicest, gentlest people you'd ever meet.

Generally I view the '80s Goths as people who saw where the human race is headed and were hiding from it. Remember the SNL skits with the Goth kids? That was fairly on target, if a bit exaggerated. Latter day Goths? No idea.

"death chicks" (sorry for the un-PC term, but it was the '80s) were generally considered to be "easy" provided you weren't a total pencil-necked geek.

My main complaint was that the makeup tasted funny.

nothing else.

I like Goths. They're crunchy and good with ketchup. :evilgrin:

I think that is the whole deal. Teenagers lashing out. This was the 90's way of doing it. Of course some were artistic, and most didn't fit in. I went the punk route for a while b/c I am a cynical asshole who saw marilyn manson for what he was (apparently :)).

I graduated in 2001 and can tell you, there were no goths left in my highschool. There were 2 girls who dressed gothic but were also big time christians and punks... however that works.

BLACK

all Black

BLACK

black

is my word for them. The word seems to fit i think.
oh well

Don't fit the stereotype, and watch how they treat you.

One note: I've never met a male goth who was fat and WASN'T homicidally psychotic. That doesn't mean they could fight, it just means that they were unbalanced.

I remember this one fat goth guy years ago at a convention who decided to pick a fight with me. I obliged him, then went to pick him off the ground by grabbing a handful of his hair to deliver a gratuitous knee to the face as a subtle chastisement for being obnoxious and upsetting the hotel staff by bleeding all over the lobby, and his hair was so stiff that it broke off. I had to laugh, and deliver the chastisement by alternate methods.

BTW, this isn't a "bash fat people" post....I'm fat, but make up for it by being mean. :evilgrin:

I met this really overweight goth, he went on and on how he lived in darkness and shit.. I called him a fake and he got so angry :D

The guy was seriously crazy he cut himself to make scar patterns etc

...kind of self-absorbed.

So here's the short and hopefully less egotistical version: I love to dress in ways that have gotten my called "goth" more than once. It has really nothing to do with peers, since none of my peers dress like that, and it certainly isn't about a belief system. In fact, if anything its that I am a heterosexual man who is seriously in touch with his feminine side and loves it, and make up is sexy, and I feel good wearing it - so I would frequently wear my eye liner and mascara and lip gloss, with my black spikey hair, collar, crushed velvet button down shirt (with snap buttons - oh yeah, oh yeah, work it.../rolls eyes) black pants, black boots, and nail polish, black dress jacket from bananna republic, and that's how I'd go to clubs, or you know... to the store hehe. :D

I love it. And if there was any ulterior motivation for doing it, it would only be that girls loved it too. And the only reason I don't do this anymore (much to my disappointment) has nothing to do with "maturing" or out growing a teen "angst" phase or anything else. I don't do it anymore because I work my butt off all day long at a job where I don't want my "looks" to get in the way of my performance, and going back and forth and back and forth between "looks" from work to play just wasn't worth it anymore... :(

But I miss that stuff - it was primarily about expressing myself in ways that I liked, nothing more or less. Why did I post, because there's a lot of speculation about ulterior motives of people who get labeled "goth" and as a person who got that all the time, I wanted to point out sometimes its not really that complicated. :)

I feel my own death like a ... err... cupcake... on the... uhhh... dark cupboard of my soul.

Yeah...

named Captain Sunshine could ever understand goths!

It's no different for the slaughtered animals than fur. Other than that costumes are fun. Getting together with people who are in sync with you and like the same music is fun.

nothing new these days...different bands (and some still the same)...good times I always thought, ut I moved on from that.

Dreamers of decadence, seekers of strange pleasures, children of the night. Artificial? Of course. In that time between childhood & adulthood, why not try a different pose? There will be time enough to invest in a career wardrobe from Talbot's--or give up & live in 3XXX T-shirts from Walmart. (It's hard to be a chubby Goth, but black IS quite slimming!) When I grew up, I wanted to be a beatnick--missed it & carommed into the hippy thing. Or maybe I just wanted to be Morticia Addams.

She once ate a bible(well some pages atleast) at mcdonalds and finally the police came and drove us home..


Now about 4 years later she wears normal clothes and thinks Bush is a great president :shrug:






When I got angry at my dad in my teens I just threatened to become a lesbian, becoming a goth would have been too much work

Well, I still listen to the music, but my tastes are on the edgier industrial end of the spectrum. Back in my late teens/early twenties (1988-1993), there was a small Gothish/industrial/punk subculture in Birmingham, AL. I enjoyed the music and was introduced a lifelong enjoyment of dance/industrial music, but I could do without the self absorbed attitude.

On an aside, I typically enjoy about anything they publish. Among my favorites: the Cocteau Twins, This Mortal Coil, Clan of Xymox, Dead Can Dance, The Pixies, the Breeders, Bauhaus, the Hope Blister, Lush.

Among my favorites of the now-defunct Waxtrax! label: KMFDM, Coil (now on imported and expensive Threshold House), My Life With the Thrill Kill Cult, Die Warzau, Meat Beat Manifesto, Revolting Cocks, 1,000 Homo DJ's.