MEN, PLEASE READ THIS... It's about that young man who died in the Oregon wilderness...

A little secret and admittedly strange thought -- from a truly wild but mature woman's mind.

If that gentle fellow who died of exposure in Oregon – had just stayed with his car and his family for a few more days -- and drank his wife's breast milk -- while she continued to consume melted water -- I wonder if they would have ALL survived???.

This is not intended to be salacious in any way, and I hope it's OK for the Lounge... I don't believe anyone has brought this up as an alternative in any DU threads.

FYI, I was one of the first women involved with the resurgence of breastfeeding babies in 1968 and 1969. My mother was horrified. She had raised me on formula. But my grandmother was very supportive! However, I must point out that no husband of mine ever suckled on me (except for fun)!

Of course, the best answer to this would have been for them to have chosen a better road and had an emergency kit with food in their car.

But still, I'm curious.

The mom had nursed both her daughters while they were lost ........

The four year old, and the seven month old baby........

And this no doubt saved their lives.....

It might have saved the dad's as well.......

I always remember the final scene in the movie "Grapes of Wrath."

:shrug:

I fail to see what breast milk has to do with it. Don't you think his wife needed food to produce breast milk?

But if he'd stayed with his family, and had her milk for nutrition, he might not have died. And he would have stayed warmer.

She might have been able to produce enough to keep them all going for a few days, anyway....

It's all very hypothetical, though......:shrug:

And for her, lack of food would have been an issue eventually.

i would think the first priority would be to make sure the baby was fed. part and parcel of that would include making sure the mother's milk supply was not unduly interrupted/stressed. if she wasn't eating, i would be reluctant to take food and calories away from my baby.


edit...by "make a difference", i mean would there be enough milk to keep them all alive? how many calories are there in breast milk, anyway?

The more the mother is nursed, the more milk she makes.....

But of course, that's under optimal conditions.

Without adequate nutrition for the mom, it would be hard for her to produce enough......

I don't know what the caloric amounts for breast milk are.......

But I do know that the fore milk (the skim) and the hind milk (the cream) have very different amounts of calories.

i haven't been following the story that in-depth. did they just have car snacks to ration? if she wasn't getting enough food, the added burden of the husband would pretty quickly drain her, pardon the pun.

milk supply, even with all the baby and husband suckling.

My understanding is that women who are normally under very restrictive diets, such as in famine areas, can still nurse, but since she wasn't used to that, maybe the stress would be a bigger factor.

I think the important thing to remember is that most people can exist without food for quite awhile if they have water.

I'll PM you later after I've given said doc a call.

fairly reasonable weight, wouldn't the body convert her body fat and or muscle to make more milk? I think there are enough calories in breast milk and it's palatable enough to overcome a couple days' duration.

Thanks for your response.

no way she needed to be feeding a grown man, she had two babies to feed as it was

to do with production. If she had some nutrition, her breast production would keep up.

people can survive on just water. It might have endangered the baby for him to consume milk if her body was under too much stress and her milk production slowed down.

if anyone needs to know that detail, it is unlikely that consuming breast milk could have saved Mr. Kim in this tragic situation, let alone the entire family. My doctor friend said he didn't think it could have helped ward off starvation or dehydration for Mr. Kim because breast milk is designed to meet the nutritional demands of an infant, not an adult. He also felt that the stress of having to express enough milk to sustain the infant for more than a couple of days without much food or water, let alone express "enough" for a grown person, would have led the mother to severe dehydration herself. So, in short, no, it couldn't have aided much to that family's chances of survival, in that doc's assessment.

Also, I think someone posted that I should ask how long a person can survive without water--DoctorFriend said about three days.

Have a wonderful holiday season!

If he hadn't left, the helicopter might never have found them in time.

If he had been trained on how to be outdoorsy, he might have done better finding a place to find shelter and finding his way back to people.

Or, as you said, if he would have been smart enough (yes, I'll dare to say it - if he had been smart enough) to know that in that area, a car damned well better have some flares, emergency kits, and whatnot in it... they might have lasted longer, or more likely, been able to rescued sooner.

Who's to know?

And perhaps the amount of milk he would have had to consume would have deprived the children.

And kudos to you for bringing back breast feeding - I find the use of formula, except when needed, to be wrong wrong wrong, and that whole period of thinking "chemistry is better than what nature provided!" hubris, and the willingness of women to believe it, to be a dark and awful stain on our history.

Thanks, Rabrrrrrrrrr. (A couple of extra "r's there because of the cold. Brrrrrrrrr...)

I find the use of formula, except when needed, to be wrong wrong wrong, and that whole period of thinking "chemistry is better than what nature provided!" hubris, and the willingness of women to believe it, to be a dark and awful stain on our history.
--------------------------

I can still remember seeing photos where there was a pill in each section of the plate that we were gonna eat and get all our nutrition too. Whatta buncha dumbfucks.

"I find the use of formula, except when needed, to be wrong wrong wrong, and that whole period of thinking "chemistry is better than what nature provided!" hubris, and the willingness of women to believe it, to be a dark and awful stain on our history."

Yet we still fight about this even here on DU. I was one of the women who was made to feel like I was taking the feminist cause back a hundred years because I chose to breastfeed. And I was called vile and disgusting IRL because of choosing to nurse.

I know we've had fights here about breastfeeding in public, but I hadn't realized there were still people who think breastfeeding in general is bad, let alone un-feminist.

That's fucked up.

but a friend's mother called me a heathen for choosing to nurse. She also said that it would "cause my daughter to be a lesbian". (No, I'm not kidding.)

There are still people like that in this world. Sad, isn't it.

I'm coming to your defense. I did not see that thread, but heard about it.

Sorry the DU moderators did not keep that thread in line.

No one should take personal abuse because of their viewpoints.

In peace,

Radio_Lady in Oregon

It wasn't that big of a deal-no worse than what I've heard IRL.

..resembling civilization, and thought he would be back shortly with help. From what I've read, and from some of the
people I talked to who are "outdoors" types said the fact that he made a great big loop, ending about a mile from
his car, showed he was trying to get back to the car. Although they all wondered why he just didn't stay on that road.
Either way, they all said that when you consider he covered 10 miles in absolutely horrible weather and didn't have
anything in the way of protective clothing, it was a herculean effort on his part.

until her body runs out of fat stores. And I'm not sure what food they had in the car, but you really don't need that many extra calories to make milk.

based on her experience, i would think that it takes quite a lot out of a body to make breast milk.

at least in the beginning, and when they have growth spurts, but they tell women to stop and do nothing but nurse then. (And I'd hope she would have the sense to just sit in the car and nurse.)

I don't think she could have done it indefinitely, and he may have lost weight too, but he could have survived.

honestly though, if i had to choose between my getting the breast milk and my kids getting the breast milk, i wouldn't do it. not because i think it's gross, but because i'll starve before my kids do.

it's a really sad situation, but i'd have probably done the exact same thing he did.

to sit here and speculate. I certainly wouldn't want to have to make those decisions.

The American Auto Association (Triple A) reported a 40+ percent rise in Oregon sales of their Emergency Kit -- that was reported on Northwest Cable News last night.

and said we're all getting disaster survival kits for Christmas. :)

thanks for the suggestion. i'd been wondering about what to buy the fam.

Go to: www.aaa.com and enter your ZIP code.

Our area is Oregon and Idaho, so the link is:

http://www.aaaorid.com/discounts/discounts_store_specials_automotive.asp



Member Price: $29.95
MSRP: $39.95
AAA Traveler Road Kit

63 piece premium kit for those unexpected emergencies.

Includes:

AAA Emergency Car Care Guide
Heavy Duty 10' Booster Cables
Flashlight with batteries
Poncho
Duct Tape
2-in-1 Screwdriver
Bungee Cord
Shop Cloth
Cable Ties
First Aid Supplies
And much more!

Other suggestions from TV reporters: Matches (wrapped in waterproof material); cigarette lighter(s), extra batteries, clothing, food and water.

Several years ago, we also purchased two (one for each car) under-the-dashboard hammers, glass cutters and flashlights -- all in one unit. That's for emergencies where the car might be submerged in water. (We've read or heard about several people whose cars plunged into water and they panicked and drowned.)

Breast milk is a perfect source of nutrition for an infant, not an adult male. It would have probably helped w/ dehydration but there was snow for that.

I know that a woman's milk supply will increase w/ the demand but would it be able to increase enough to feed another human? And would her body have gone into starvation mode first?

I think it was a miracle that she happened to be lactating for her seven-month-old infant, and her four-year-old was able and willing to suckle, too.

When my daughter was about 2 1/2, she wouldn't have wanted the breast anyway -- and when it was over, it was over.

We can play the "what if" game for eternity but we'll never come to a conclusion.

IMO, it wouldn't have helped him. If there had not been an abundant fresh water supply then yes, breast milk would benefit. But there was snow around, enough to have kept him alive until search and rescue arrived. He would have made it until they arrived w/o nourishment. The young children were a different story. They needed it to ward off further problems in the future.

it's the same reason women make fantastic long distance runners

They had to make a decision about what they would do.

With one set of circumstances, the father might have been the only survivor due to leaving the car. With what actually happened, it's likely that if he had stayed with the family, all of them would have been saved.

But people can't know all the factors involved in such a horrible, life-or-death situation. And Mr. Kim made the decision he did, likely knew all the risks, and the end result was heart-breaking.

I just hope his family and friends can deal with the grief. What a sad, sad loss.

Breatfeeding requires a large number of calories, and many nutrients and minerals. Since she wasn't eating, her body had to create those nutrients from stores already in the body. Most of the material may have come from burning fat, but others, like calcium can only be generated by leeching it out of the bones. There are several other vitamins and minerals that can only be gained by the destruction of muscle or tissue.

In normal situations, this isn't an issue. Lactating women who eat a balanced diet usually obtain enough nutrients to satisfy their lactational needs without harming their body. In a starving woman, those nutrients can only come from within her own body. If my wife wanted to breastfeed our children at her expense to keep them alive, I would certainly understand and support that. I wouldn't harm her health for my own, however.

with him alive than with him dead. People just need to stay with the vehicle since a vehicle is alot easier to spot from a helicopter than a person.

How hard is it to throw a few cans and a can opener in your vehicle before you go off on a trip, or some beef jerky if you eat meat, or some dried figs or something like that. I've only been caught in a blizzard once in my life...I managed to get almost home before it started and my ex and I had to park my car and walk for two hours to get home before it hit. We knew it was coming, and we were snowbound for a week in a summer home with no insulation, but other than being cold we were none the worse for wear, and our pets survived, whereas people who were not able to make it back home in time lost their pets. My parents thought I should have stayed with them rather than walk the last two hours to get home before the storm hit, but there was no way I was gonna abandon my pets (my dogs were outside, too) knowing what was coming.

I mean, assuming they had a way to cook it. Human sushi wouldn't be very healthy, I don't think.

Maybe not a valid critique (but it might be), but certainly a valid point.

See my post below.

it wasn't funny.

Hopefully, that disgusting comment will be gone soon.

and some who have been wrecked in mountains.

It does raise the question of "Where do we draw the line about whether they did enough?" Just what heroic measures should they have taken before they are no longer morally culpable for their own deaths? (of course, in this instance that didn't happen, but how would we feel if they mother and daughters had died in the car as well? Would we be angry at the mother for not offering herself as food? Do we allow the killing of, perhaps, the baby?)

If we are gonna play the "what if?" game, then yes, let's go all the way with it, and see if we can find a line that we aren't willing to cross.

some of your skin, right, and eat it... I think the Donner party practiced cannabalism to surive, and that crew on that wrecked plane in the movie "Alive". Man, I need to watch that movie again. If I have no dependents I might turn my nose up at drastic measures, but since I do have some dependents, in animal form, I might be getting out my pocket knife.

how much milk exactly is a woman supposed to produce, she was already eating nothing and feeding two children

he did the right thing, he waited as long as a person could reasonably wait, then he went for help, it is a tragedy that he didn't succeed but i'm not seeing that a reasonable alternative was to drink his wife

If the mom wasn't taking in any calories, she may have been compromised if she had given breast milk to her husband, too. It may have done her in.

It is a very interesting theory, though.

Lactation, or milk supply, is stimulated by nursing. The more a child nurses, the more milk its mother will produce. In my opinion, if a man is hungry and offered breast milk as his only nourishment, he would be foolish to turn it down. There is plenty to share with the children. The mother's body will work to keep up with the demand.

She had plenty of water to keep herself hydrated, which is primary. Calorie consumption is secondary. Women in third world countries successfully breastfeed their children even with inadequate calorie consumption. It is only when those children are weaned off the breast that they are faced with hunger.

Reread the end of "Grapes of Wrath." Rose of Sharon did it.

If she had plenty to keep herself hydrated, then so did he.
He left the car and died from exposure. What does it have to do with breast milk?

Since that is the supposition, I just wondered in the OP if he had stayed in the car whether he might have been helped by additional food in the form of breast milk. You seem to be angry with my question. That was not the purpose of the comment.

Of course, we all know he died of exposure.

if you panic, you can die in 3 seconds
without oxygen, you can die in 3 mins
without water, 3 days
without food, 3 weeks

the bigger mistake in this mans case was leaving the spot and splitting up

3 weeks.

I mean if you are an island unto yourself and no one will ever look for you it's one thing, but if you have relatives that might wonder where you are, it's another. Just wait.

You can drink your own urine to survive. I saw a tale of one family that was shipwrecked floating in some kind of emergency raft for like a month and the mother who was an RN gave the children enemas from the salt water, the bowel filtered out the salt in the water and that is how they survived. I love watching those survival shows.

the concentated urine can become cytotoxic and contribute to organ failure and hasten the dehydration process, even if you are rescued you can die

rather than just die outright.

No working spigots on the manly b00bs there...

:shrug:

I just don't understand why this is being highlighted as an element in this case. A person does what he or she needs to do to survive, whether it be breast milk or - and this is a story I recall from a man who survived two weeks in rubble after the 1986 earthquake in Mexico City - drinking one's own urine. I get a feeling this story is being politicized a bit.

just pass the thread.

It was just a thought as I was going to sleep last night, warm in my comfy Oregon bed.

What's political about that? A woman who is lactating has the ability to feed her children and any other person she might be stranded with...

Just askin'!

no offense intended. It's asking something purely in hindsight. If he had stayed, he almost assuredly would have survived given the increased shelter and ability to huddle for warmth. Food wasn't really the issue. One can survive for a long time without food. He died from the cold.

And anyway, to fault him for trying to seek help for his family after staying there for seven days seems almost cruel though I realize that's not at all how you intended it.

Kudos on the breastfeeding, though.

he would have gotten completely antsy in a car for a week and he would have tried to get help by hiking out.

Forget about the children and the breast feeding -- it ain't happening here, Sir Captain!

Food is not the issue, plus if I were him, I'd want every drop to go to the children.

What I really don't understand is not building a fire and keeping it going OR if you are going to leave at least stick to the road you came in on vs. striking off through the words.

Like it or not, us "city folk" -- and James Kim was described as a city person -- are not as resourceful as people who are into rural or wilderness camping/hiking/boating/fishing.

After my experience with the road to Anthony Lake near Baker City, Oregon (we found it snow covered on June 1st!), I can tell you we could have gotten into real trouble there if I hadn't screamed at my husband to TURN AROUND!

Full story on another thread, found at this link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2642795#2643243

I guess Kim never read The Grapes of Wrath. Seeing the movie sure wouldn't count.

I remembered that too.

DECADES ago, can you briefly describe what happened in that book -- vis-a-vis your comments?

Thanks a bunch.

(Signed)

Your Local DU Book Club Representative, Radio_Lady

:hi: yes, i'ts been decades ago, but you can't ever forget the last scene in the grapes of wrath where rose of sharon nurses a dying man back to health.

is that apparently the guy was kind of a gadget freak and knew all kinds of things about the latest in technology. But, no GPS? No sat phone? And hell, didn't they run out of gas? A true tragedy. Story made me very sad.

wondered if any of those gadgets might have helped him.

GPS? Do those devices even work in mountainous areas? In 1995-96, I worked for LoJack Corporation, which use Motorola-developed devices. One is mounted in your car in a hidden place. If your car is stolen, the police can send a signal through a tower. That signal guides police and they can find your car most of the time. However, it ONLY WORKS in city areas where a tower has been installed. Out of range in a mountainous area? You're pretty much out of luck.

Satellite phones? Are those available for the general public?

...each generation gets more and more dependent on the Market Economy, and less and less resourceful. I remember a story about an 80 year old woman whose car went over a bridge and she was stuck in a swamp for 4 days--with bugs biting her and other things nipping as well! She was stuck in muck and couldn't move, but she bit a button off her sleeve and sucked on it to generate saliva and not get dehydrated. Well, I don't know about you all, but I never would have thought to do that. But this woman had lived on farms and knew how to react to emergencies.

Like me, the Kims are Urban San Franciscans. I can tell you, people like us know how to walk down dubious streets without attracting muggers, we know how to drive safely across 5 lanes if we see a parking spot on the other side of the boulevard, we know you don't turn on your highbeams if you're driving thru pea-soup fog at night. But we know nothing about how to survive in a wilderness--especially one that contains lots of snow. I don't even have the hot part of my cigarette lighter in the car anymore--that's a port to charge up my techie gadgets--so I couldn't have even burned my tires like they did.

I'm afraid this is just a very tragic story of people being out of their element. I applaud them for being as brave and resourceful as they were; if Kati Kim had also given her husband breastmilk would it have saved his life? We can't answer that--and I personally don't like a lot of the second-guessing I see people doing about the Kims. If it were me up there, I doubt I would have waited as long as James to walk off and look for help--2 days max, and I'd've been trekking across the snow.

And probably with the same results. My heart goes out to this family, they rose to the occasion as well as they could.

stated so up above.

could have done without food for awhile. The breastmilk supply could end up under stress depending on the mom.

nt

It must have been an angonizing choice to go for helpl.

If he stayed at the car without drinking the breast milk he likely would have been alive as his wife was found alive. Of course he had no way of knowing that the help was coming. He actually died pretty close to hunting lodge full of food and clothes.
If he made it to the lodge he could have been found alive too, but he did not know it was there. Breast milk had nothing to do with any of it as far as I can tell.

without the breast milk.

The fatal error was leaving into the cold.

with our without breastfeeding. there were many options available to them- unfortunately they felt the only way out was for him to leave on foot.

Breastfeeding does require lots of calories in the long term, she couldn't have supported them all without some nourishment herself. I would have been drinking my own breastmilk in the same situation. High in fat, high in calories.

I can understand the impulse. At some point, they reached the difficult decision to split the party, hoping that the husband could find help, thus increasing the chance that someone would survive. Had he reached help in time, we would be praising his heroism now.

He was brave enough to risk not only his life, but also the chance that he would reach help too late to save the rest. I won't fault the decision without knowing a lot more.