What to do with my 15 year old daughter who has screwed up again?

She got kicked out of her high school last year for pulling a false fire alarm on the second to the last day of school. This year she started at an alternative school with small classes in order to help the kids do well. She lives with her mom and stepfather, but I told her at the start of the school year that if she maintained a B average that I would pay for her tuition at the Paul Green School of Rock (from the movie Rock School). She is a drummer and has had lessons for years as well as a $2500 DW drum kit. After a semester it seemed to have motivated her and she had a B average as well as winning some awards at school. So at the beginning of this month she started at the School of Rock and I paid her $385 a month tuition for drum and vocal lessons as well as the opportunity to play and jam with other musicians (she is in a band, but they have yet to play a date).

She also started night school at the beginning of this month in order to make up credits from her freshman year. Last night her stepfather got a call from her school wanting to know where she was. He called her on her cell phone and she told him she was at school. He told her that the school had just called and asked if she wanted to reconsider her answer. She then said she was at her boyfriend's house and she knew she was not supposed to be there, much less cutting school to do it. She evidently thinks that adults are stupid and that the school would not report that she had been cutting classes. It is heartbreaking and frustrating to watch her flush her future away. She claims she wants to be a star, but she cannot dedicate herself enough to keep all of the benefits that she has.

So now she has lost her opportunity to go to the School of Rock as well as her other private lessons. She is also not going to be seeing much of her boyfriend and there's the rub. She has already demonstrated that she is more than willing to sneak around even when she faces consequences, so what will it be like when she figures she has nothing to lose? I told her mother that the older she gets, the more responsible she is for her own choices--good or bad. She is following in the footsteps of her older brother who blew off high school and at 17 is now in the Army and quite likely eventually on his was to Iraq. It is even more helpless to watch this from a distance. I'm afraid that if she does not get her act together that it will only get worse. It was so much easier when she was a little girl.

Maybe she needs to fuck up.. I really doubt anything you do will change her. Except make her hate you. Kick her out of the house on her 18th birthday. 40 hours per week at McDonald's will fix a kid up in a few months. And give her some condoms..

I am afraid that she never will graduate from high school. As far as we know she does not drink or use drugs. Her mom has it set up with her doctor that if she wants birth control she just has to go and ask for it. The bottom line is that she cannot be trusted and it's hard to have the control over a 15 year old that you would have with a younger child. Last year her mom would drop her off at the front door of her school and she would leave by another door. She seems to have everything and appreciate nothing. Her mother worked her way up from being on welfare and is now making $50,000 a year only to watch her kids throw away their opportunities.

My sister couldn't handle her so she came to live with me, the first year was rough.

My niece had a choice, straighten out or go to a group home until she turned 18.

She was afraid of going to the group home, and I really laid down the law.

I really can't tell you what to do, but I understand what you are going though.

My niece did turn into a fine young woman, so there is hope for your daughter.

All I can say is to be there for your daughter, she is still young.

However, we've straightened out some of the bumps in the road. She's now 38 years old, married to a young doctor, and they have two kids. We all live in the same town in Oregon.

She lived with her father and stepmother from age 11 to 18. Initially, I was confined in a hospital due to a pain problem and her father wouldn't take her "part time." So she (and her brother, age 10) lived with him and I paid him child support.

I know the pain of separation from teenagers, and also the pain of seeing them on the wrong track. I wish I could give you some advice.

We've also raised five children from two different marriages, with mixed results. The older ones were very difficult -- but at least they've all married and have families of their own. None is is prison, and only one admits to frequent use of marijuana.

Luckily, mine had a terrific stepfather from ages 2 and 3. As far as his children go, their mother died when they were 13, 11 and 9, and no amount of my mothering has helped them very much. I do believe they are damaged emotionally forever and it's pretty sad. It was a true challenge to have those children in my care for the number of years I had it.

In peace,

Radio Lady

I have three daughters - 37, 35, and 17. All presented me with different problems - you know the score. They never give you the advantage of learning from your mistakes.

When my 17 year old was fourteen, she started sneaking out of the house at night to see her boyfriend, who I let her see during reasonable hours because I did learn from the older ones that as soon as I told her she couldn't see him, she would make sure she did. (and he was no good - now in the pen) So, we screwed her bedroom window shut. So, then she just went out another window in the house. So, we screwed down all the windows. She unscrewed them so my husband drilled the top tips off so that fixed that, so then she used the doors. We did give her a brick to knock out a window in case of fire. The final win for us was an alarm system and we didn't give her the code. We never did stop her from seeing the "boy" and that did eventually end on its own. Birth control is important. Certain freedoms are necessary or I think my daughter would have gone stark raving mad. (I know I would have and I wasn't a perfect angel either.) I've learned that my major role was to simply keep them as safe as I could. All three are okay. The 37 year-old is a teacher, the 35 year-old is a physical therapist and the 17 year-old graduated from high school in three years and is now at community college. She was not a straight A student, but I felt if she didn't fast track, she would bog down. My oldest will tell me that in elementary school, teachers teach students. In middle school and high school, they teach subjects. I bet you anything that your daughter is lost in the system.

The 17 year old worked at McDonald's for a year. It's great job training to teach them what they don't want to do. I really did not encourage her to do this, but she wanted the independence and this took up a lo of her time. She did Baskin' Robbins after that and now has a part time office job while going to college.

So, here's my free (exactly what is worth) advice. Keep her safe, but give her some rope. Keep her busy. She will make mistakes. Just do everything you can to keep her safe and pray for the best.

Best to you. And to your daughter and son. I am thankful everyday that I had daughters and had easier options than the military.

Edited to add that getting kicked out of school for pulling a false alarm is wrong. I've seen that done in our local schools here, too.

My daughter is only 15 and so there is still time for her, although she has to want to help herself also. She is far too young to simply, as one poster stated to "drop her on her ass". She still does have a chance to finish school and has expressed that she does want to go to college, but if she is allowed to go on the path she is on she will end up being a teenaged dropout and possibly an unwed mother. Her impulsive pulling of the fire alarm is the only time she has been in trouble with the law and it took 6 months to work its way through the system and earlier this month she was given probation because she had done so well in school from September to January. She earned her entrance to the School of Rock and was told she would have to continue to earn it to keep it, but I think the boyfriend thing has over ridden all else. She is very smart and should do well in her alternative school because the class size is only about 15 students and she is given personal attention. Her teachers like her because she has done well and is capable of doing well. There are many kids there who are not able to do the work or do not care. Plus, this school is set up to help the students to succeed.

So my daughter is really at a crossroads and I am limited in what I can do from afar. Every time in the past that she has been given rope she has tripped up herself. She is oblivious to consequences since she evidently, and stupidly, feels she will never be caught even though she has in the past. She also thinks that adults are stupid and will lie to your face. The boyfriend thing is very big and at 15 my daughter thinks she is in love, especially when the boyfriend is 3 years older than her. Completely keeping young people apart is difficult when there are opportunities to sneak around, although once she is in the alternative school building they do not let her go she still has to go home on her own. So the boyfriend thing is going to be very dicey, also because her stepfather has threatened to have the kid arrested for statutory rape since he is 18 (they did meet when he was in high school with her).

I do know that my daughter's situation is not unique and that there are others who have experienced the same thing. Often, when you are going through a tough time you tend to feel like you are alone in it. So thanks again for the helpful reply which I will forward to her mother.

You seem to have a high opinion of this training (as expressed in the high cost you are willing to pay). This experience is a positive in her life. Withdrawing it reduces those things that are positive for her.

Is there another course of action as a penalty? Sounds like your ex-wife's husband cares for your daughter and that a real plus. Can you work out something with him that keeps the positive of Rock School in her life?

I sincerely wish you the very best. Her age is an especially tough time for a parent. I know....

:(

Whatever she has done, she always is left with something special she likes to do. She is finding it easier to sneak and lie than to do what is right. The cost of a month of Rock School is more money than I take home in a week, but it doesn't seem that she appreciates that. Even with her not going I still have to pay for another month, giving them 30 days notice. All she had to do was to go to school and do her best and not go to her boyfriend's family's home. He was welcome to come to her house. So not only did she cut 3 night school classes in 3 weeks, bizarrely not thinking that her mother would find out about it, when the chips were down she chose to lie about it which immediately busted her.

I know you are doing what's best for your daughter and your thinking is very clear. Someday she'll recognize she has a great father.

be any improvement. She should have learned consequences years back. Now she is going to learn the hard way, but that's better than not learning at all. I know a 20+ year old, with wealthy parents who sent him to Purdue. He had about 30 traffic tickets which is pretty amazing for a 19 year old. The parents told him, one more ticket and we're not paying tuition. Well, he did it and the school tossed him as the parents didn't pay tuition. He's working at Home Depot now, also blowharding how he's going back to school, but he never saves enough to go to school, even the local junior college. Somewhere along the line he'll get sick of Home Depot and go back to school.

that I have no kids of my own. My experience with child-rearing is mostly in being a surrogate father for five years to my ex's three offspring, who were all in their teens for most of that time.

That said, what you've told us of your daughter's transgressions doesn't strike me as much beyond the norm. I allow, though, that you've left out other things she's done.

Even the best kids screw up, and parents need to let them. As a wise man once told me, "People who don't make mistakes ain't doin' anything." What's important is that they don't screw up in ways that threaten life (their own or others') or property, and that they don't repeat their mistakes.

A lot of people say what's most important in raising kids is to let them know you love them, but I don't agree. I think kids want most to know that they're important, that they matter. From that, they'll surmise that you love them, and at the same time they'll have a sense of worth. And anyone who has that will be okay, kid or not.

TV movies tell you to get harsh and make them do what they should do. My life has taught me that parents in the early 1900 knew what they were doing. Drop her and refuse to support her crappy choices. Only since the 50's have 16 or 17yr olds been considered children. She's been given so much and decided to dump it. Let her. Drop her on her ass. She'll respect you later.

and expect to be accorded the full support due real children.

I have a sister in law who is going through what the original poster is going through,. Her second born son has never done well in school and for the past five or six years has had to attend summer school just so he could advance to the next grade. He started skipping school and was put in the alternative school this school year, but didn't succeed there, His mom thought he would do well in a vocational setting studying cooking (at one time he said he was interested in becoming a chef) but he didn't even attend that school regularly.

My nephew's problems are compounded by the fact that when he was 13 his father, my brother, had a heart attack and died in front of him and his older brother who was 16 at the time. A very tender age to suddenly lose a parent. My brother was also the parent who understood him best. My nephew has an older brother who is VERY, VERY smart and always did well in school. His brother is so smart that he came within one point of getting a perfect score on the ACT. My sister in law, who is also very smart, relates more with the older nephew better than she does the younger.

My nephew is also ADDICTED to World of Warcraft which his mom does not like. I have tried to talk to her and my other sisters about it but they wont hear anything I have to say. At least in the Warcraft world my nephew is having to do some kind of interaction with others and I find that a good thing. He really doesn't have many friends. My sis in law has even taken away computer privileges but even not being able to play WoW has caused my nephew to try to do better in school.

He will be 18 in a couple of months and my sister in law hinted at Thanksgiving that he may be kicked out of the house if he isn't working or going to school. I don't think he'll be going to school so I hope he is able to get some sort of job.

Self delete...duplicate post.

is it possible she could live with you for a while? I had a cousin going down the same path as a teen and my Aunt couldn't control her. She went to live with her dad in another state. Getting her into a new school, new friends, etc. as well as a more disiplined environment changed her life. She's a doctor now.

Good luck.

my son wasn't that much different then and still has issues occaisonally (he'll be 21 on Saturday) but he seems to have gotten his life in order for the most part. But he did spend his 17th birthday in a juevenile detention camp and that did have some effect. He's the type of young man who needs structure in his life until such time as he can rationally make correct decisions.

The key statement that I'm replying to in Rosie1223's post is the discipline issue. Knowing that there are consequences (and following through with those consequences) hopefully will allow her to just slow down enough to think for that one minute before doing something that may just stop them. That's a lesson I had hoped my son learned (and for the most part he has) that will help him mature.

The schools where I live are good, but the problem would be to find one that would take her after her trouble with her school last year where she was expelled. Right now she has her mom and stepfather to look after her and she has no problem lying to them and sneaking around. Here, there would only be me. It still might be a possibility, but a lot would be up to her and her commitment to making it work.

Her mom has been beating herself up over mistakes she has made with our daughter and her son, who is now in the Army at 17. It does no good to cry over spilled milk of the past, but I do see a big mistake that she has made which is not uncommon to many parents. Her mom has worked 2 or 3 jobs over the last 7 years or so in order to give her kids all of the "stuff" she thought they needed in order to make them happy--the nice house, the nice things, the nice opportunities. I have had a suspicion about this for some time and a couple of years ago I asked both my daughter and her brother if they preferred the nice house and all of the "stuff" with their mom being gone working much of the time, or a smaller house and fewer things, but more of mom's time. They both said they wanted more of mom. It's too bad it has turned out this way, but the "stuff" trap is a trap and the years lost cannot be regained.

Both my daughter and her brother were basically good kids who really fell apart in high school, a poor high school in a Chicago suburb which is one of the largest in the state of Illinois. Other than my daughter's trouble over the false alarm, neither had been in trouble with the law. Neither of them have, or had, trouble with drugs or alcohol (my daughter has been drug tested in the past to be sure). The trouble is for their mother is that she has seen the result of all of her years of trying to guide them to a good future has resulted in both kids both throwing away their opportunities. It's really sad to have done all that you think was right only to have your children act like they do not care. The older they get, the more responsible they are for the choices they make themselves. I only hope that my daughter chooses to make things easier for herself than harder and before she makes a mistake that will affect her life for years to come.

I personally don't think the school incident will have the detrimental effect you may believe. Talking to school officials about what happened and some contrition on your daughter's part would have a great result in her attending a new school.

You're point about "stuff" being more important than being there really rings hard, especially for me. That was the leading factor in my divorce from my kids mom. We both grew up not having alot but where she and I differed was that I didn't have the wants that she had. I was happy having the smaller house, the older car, not going on exotic vacations and the like. That was the way I was raised. I saw my own dad working the graveyard shift then coming home and going back out to do odd jobs and as a result him missing alot of the things my brothers and I did. I didn't want to miss out on those things with my own kids. But unfortunately those arguments led to more serious problems that I wasn't able to handle better and truthfully our divorce was probably best for both of us at the time.

I agree your daughter (and her brother) could care less about what they have and that they'd rather have their mom home.

asked both my daughter and her brother if they preferred the nice house and all of the "stuff" with their mom being gone working much of the time, or a smaller house and fewer things, but more of mom's time. They both said they wanted more of mom.

they felt they had to say that, but any teen real world prefers less of mom around and more of "stuff," it's all part of becoming independent

you were a teen once, did you want your mom around, don't think so!

i suspect a lot of mind games have been played now and in the past but what's done is done and second guessing mom for needing to work 2 or 3 jobs is fairly useless

asking "gotcha questions" is not gonna help anyone's mental health

Unfortunately, at the time, I did not have you there to advise me as to what to do. Next time I will know better":) I was guilty at the time of asking a question to which I already knew the answer, but which nobody wanted to ask. Aside from the typical mother/teenaged daughter battles going on, they are great friends. Also, her brother was a mom's boy. Their mom was all these kids had because although their stepfather is a good guy he is rather emotionally distant. They needed their mom more than the stuff. The time she could have had with them is now gone forever and most of the "stuff" is now junk, but the cost for the stuff is still there, financially and emotionally.
I still contend that the "stuff" trap is one that many parents fall into these days.

i don't know, i had a stage parent, so maybe i had a different view of it, but i've lived this long and to this day when something reminds me of the opportunities lost and the financial harm done to myself and my family by my mom's desire to push music on me and be there and basically try to run my life

well

all i can say is, moms who blame themselves for working -- moms who allow themselves to be blamed for working -- ought to wake up and realize that what they are doing is far, far, FAR better than being "around more" and trying to live someone else's life for them

that just don't work

it isn't PC to say so but that's just the way it is really

we can't admit it to ourselves, because working mom is the devil in this society and must be demonized for trying to provide

but anyone who had a non-working mom who was "there" all the time can tell you what a horrible thing it was, "the female eunuch" wasn't a work of fiction

My mom was a stay-home mom, was NOT a female eunuch, and was around the house all the time when my brothers and I were growing up in the 60's and 70's, as were all of my friend's mothers too.

Wasn't a horrible thing about it.

Take your broad brush elsewhere.

RL

There isn't a kid out there who would want less of mom. I'm here all the time and my kids are constantly saying how great it is because none of their friends' moms are home.

Your situation was extreme. Kids want mom around. period.

at least not long after they get home from school and this would have been possible. Then there would have been more family meals together and bonding. Mom would have been much better prepared to keep in touch with how the kids were doing in school and better able to help them and to simply spend time with them. In my daughter's situation, her brother is now pretty much gone forever and does not consider their house to be his home anymore and in a few more years she will be gone also. Then her mom will have the rest of her life to regret that she didn't spend more time with her kids. We don't know if mom being home would have made things better, but I think we do know that her not being home many nights and also weekends did have a negative effect. Even when she was home she was often far too tired to do much of anything.

There are lots of controlling, stifling mom's out there whose children WOULD benefit from them being away. I know because I had one & I totally rebelled against her control & got in all kinds of trouble.

there isn't a TEEN out there who wants MORE of mom

you seriously don't remember what is was like to be a kid, do you?

don't demonize mom for working, and don't kid yourself that you would have been happy in lockdown with a parent breathing down your neck, because you wouldn't have been

we're not talking about "kids," we're talking about a young woman of 15, and a girl that age does NOT want mom breathing down her neck

rather than working 2 and 3 jobs, not being home evenings and working on weekends. Nothing, including music, was ever pushed on my daughter. It is what she begged to do and would practice for hours on her own. If she had ever wanted to quit, that was fine. The main thing that was expected of her was to actually go to school and do the best that she could there. That is certainly not asking too much. There was no pressure to get straight A's or to get into the best college. We would have been happy with any college she would attend. Now we would be happy if she just graduates from high school.

mom set the example of someone who worked hard and nothing was handed to her

if that was a bad example, well, no wonder your daughter doesn't internalize discipline, because you don't respect discipline

read your posts again and think about what you are saying -- you are saying that working hard, evenings and weekends is a bad wicked thing for a woman

your daughter is a female, a woman, you are telling her that working hard to get what she wants is evil

and then you wonder why she don't wanna work

this girl is trapped in a classic double bind

your daughter will never succeed as a musician if working nights and weekends is a sin -- you have taught your daughter a very bad lesson and totally screwed her over mentally with this concept

The kids have all the stuff and they are very materialistic. The problem is I think my sister-in-law is equally materialistic and she instills her needs for stuff on the kids and shows them how important the stuff is.

:hug:

whips em into shape every time.

It is run by the Illinois National Guard and the military is always there to recruit new cannon fodder and promise these kids anything they want to hear. Her brother is now in the Army at 17 years old and probably on his way to Iraq later this year. I tried to warn him about enlisting given what is going on, but he wouldn't listen. I will not send my daughter to have anything to do with the military. I respect the military, but in my opinion they are the tools and enablers for those like Bush and will follow their orders unquestioningly, giving that sorry refrain to misdeeds of "I was just following orders". The military, any kind of military, will not get my kid.

dying in Iraq. That aside, I do not care for the robotic, unquestioning military mindset. They too often become the tools of history's dictators and Bushes.

and that it sort of eclipses many other things in her life: parents, school, future. It is going to be enormously hard to get her to focus on those things right now. Parents, school and the future are sources of stress/anxiety. The boyfriend (for the moment) is everything she has wanted for the last 3 years or so. He makes her feel older, worthy, loved, beautiful, etc. He probably has more influence on her behavior than anyone else at this point (which makes HIM the source of stress/anxiety for her parents).

The good news, sort of, is that this euphoria of her first love won't last. 2 months maybe 3 months, but then even if she is still with him, the almost drug-like effect will wear off. And she should gradually move toward making better decisions about what to do next. In other words, right now she can't see life after this boyfriend (because of course 'they will love each other forever' ). But right now there is no "next" in her mind.

And one crazy thought: perhaps you could talk to the boyfriend separately. Talk to him about how he can help keep your daughter 'on the rails' for the remainder of high school. If he loves her, he should also want what is best for her, especially if that includes her becoming a great drummer. Try to make him as much of an ally as possible in keeping your daughter from REALLy screwing up. I think of this as a version of 'keep your friends close and you enemies closer.'

Her mother intended to not let her date until she was 16, but she let the genie out of the bottle on this one. She has been with this guy now for 9 or 10 months. Now she is 15 and in a serious relationship with a kid who is not only 18, but also a Palestinian from Jordan. Nothing against him for being a Muslim, but his culture is very controlling of women and he has given some indication of that, saying that he must always be with her. That in of itself is trouble, Muslim or not. So I don't see any breakup being a casual or typical breakup of teenagers.

Her boyfriend has been talked to numerous times and does understand the importance of her education. He has been welcomed into the house and made to feel a part of the family. He has repaid this respect with lying to her mother and stepfather and making promises that he proceeded to break. Their relationship has become so all-encompassing that there is pretty much no doubt that it has moved beyond the kissing stage, although he promised that would not happen until she was 18. That could be a problem because her stepfather is probably close to calling the police since she is still a minor below the age of consent. The irony is that if this was the Middle East, his behavior toward her would have shamed her and if she had brothers they would come after him. I think that those of us in the West do not understand that the Arab's culture and mindset is one based upon shame and loss of honor, and not guilt. Here, much and most of our behavior is based upon guilt. So there is more than just a boyfriend-girlfriend thing going on here.

The real sad thing is that my daughter has no girlfriends, none. The alternative school she attends is nearly all boys and the girls that are there are not ones that we would choose for my daughter to be friends with. She is so busy trying to be a grown up that she is losing out on what should be some special years in high school.

Do you suppose that she has gone for a controlling boyfriend because she feels herself drifting and wants to be told what to do? That could be an added "glue" in the relationship, along with the "hit by a truck" feeling of one's first love.

but I think that the potential for him to be controlling is there. He "has" to see her all of the time. Teen relationships where the boyfriend becomes all controlling never seem to start that way, but then they end up bad. Her boyfriend is a Muslim from Jordan and there is the cultural heritage of how women are treated. But he does seem to want to know where she is all the time and wants to see her all the time. If he has as much influence over her as it appears, he certainly could have used that influence in a positive way and encouraged her to attend school and do well. Instead he seems to just be thinking about himself. From what I understand after talking with her mother last night, that relationship will be severely nipped in the bud. I'm not sure how that will work out because you know how it is when parents try to come between young lovers. If her stepfather presses the matter, the boyfriend is 18 and is here on a green card and she is only 15, below the legal age of consent, so he could face statutory rape charges and then I would think it might be likely he would be deported. Life is about choices and consequences and his choices may have severe consequences.

she blew her one tiny chance, probably got there and realized the huge amount of talent in this world and the reality is most people end up playing stupid-ass weddings

i have no clue because in some sense musical talent is a cruel gift, most musicians i know are indeed very unhappy people

i do not have any idea of what to say or to do

it's a bit like that dancer in carlito's way, "i hate my dream"

she needs a new dream that could actually be realized, but such dreams have to come from within and can't be imposed

i honestly don't know what to say or do, it is a frustrating situation even just watching it from the sidelines

my own mom pressured me to be in music despite my lack of talent, but my situation was different, i acted up and blew it off because i hated music and did not want to perform -- and also because i truly had another dream that i was able to pursue
-- a dream that did not involve performance in any way, shape, or form!

if she feels called upon to perform, and realistically there are way more people w. this calling than the world can possibly use, then it's just so tragic

She has had private lessons with a very good instructor for years now and has won state drumming competitions. The School of Rock where she lives only recently started and there are not that many good musicians and when I have talked with the director they were very excited to have her. Also, talented and good looking female drummers are not common and so she might get more opportunities than other drummers. It's too bad she has chosen to piss away her opportunities. I don't know if she would ever be a star, but if she could make a living doing something she loves to do she would have been miles ahead of most people. I at least wanted her to have a shot at her dream.

sometimes kids are depressed when they get to be teens and realize what reality is

there are millions of teens and only a few britney spears, lindsey lohans, etc.

when people realize what the true odds are, it can be easier to just give up and flame out than to be hit over the head for years and years and years and years

not saying this is necessarily a factor, but could be a factor

making a living doing something she loves to do often just means that she will no longer love to do it, if she's scratching out a living, as most musicians do, that's why they so often seem so unhappy, they haven't just lost the dream, they've lost the pleasure they once had too, playing at the holiday inn doesn't make everybody happy they're doing what they love, it makes them feel sick they sold out for nothing if you see what i'm getting at

don't know if i'm putting this very well, suspect i am not

could very well be that you put too much pressure on her too young, i think the reason there are not many talented good looking female drummers is because of the realities of gender discrimination and you don't sound very real about that either, if she fails through no fault of her own that's even worse than failing because she fucked up, because it means that society threw her away -- and that is really hurtful

again, not sure how to express this

i don't think you can buy her a dream at age 15, could be there's too much pressure there, could be depression issues, really hard to tell from here

maybe an independent unbiased counselor is the way to go, i dunno

She has already proven that she is capable of doing well in school--she just has to go. Nobody makes her do her music--she loves to do it. She is in a band and they practice at her house once a week. She has had private drum lessons for years which she begged to keep because the teacher is so talented and teaches her so much. She has had the opportunities and all that was asked of her was to actually go to school and attend classes and do the best she can. She is in an alternative school which is geared to make the worst students look good. This should be a cakewalk for her, but she still has to actually attend classes. She has had teachers go out of their way to help her because they see her potential, yet she throws it away. She had the chance to do things the easy way and has had so much given to her, now she gets to try things the hard way. If she cannot be dedicated enough to do the simple things that would help her to continue with her music, how dedicated would she be to the music when that road became tough?

because as you made sure to let her know, her mom working evenings and weekends destroyed the children

what musician was successful working 9 to 5, i wonder?

you have painted your own child into a corner to punish your wife

anymore. I don't know what to do either.

Let me add, his Dad was a professional musician who played first chair with the Youth Symphony when he was 16. At Carnegia Hall. He played professionally for years. He was one of the best trumpet players I ever heard. (And I can't stand the guy so it takes a lot to say that.)

He's now a toothless drunk on SS Disability who just got out of jail for his 4th & 5th DUIs. Talent means nothing.

Its got some great tips for single parents, especially moms with teenage boys. It can help you be back in control of things again. There is also a website with some great resources -- I think its something about the Savannah Family Institute. Good luck!

What I am talking about is being paid to play every weekend. She might not become a millionaire, but she probably could survive with just that or a flexible part time job. Of course, she needs decent people to perform with.

She did well in school when she applied herself. Yet, she is rebellious... it's a beautiful combination. It means she's smart and has thatchers... she'll do well in life, she's just trying to figure it all out now.

the more i ponder it, the more i think too much pressure was put too soon w. the "school of rock" and all

let a kid be a kid

and tell the 18 yr old to get the hell away from her, jeebus, i think we had this thread before, i'm surprised the stepdad hasn't already filed charges against him

After being kicked OUT of summer school. And I turned out fine. 15 means nothing.

I can't really say I turned out "fine", cuz I'm
certainly not rich or successful or nothing...
But I turned out "OK".

I'm now pushing 40, and I've not had any problems with the law
other than "traffic offenses" since that day in 1983.

Some of us are just born with a "contrary" gene; we just need to
explore life on our own terms,
and sometimes that means that we learn "the hard way".

But "hard way" or not, we do LEARN. If we survive the exploration.

I don't know how it works in Canada, but down here it's no biggie.

Plus, canadian school is just naturally more challenging

she is good at. I mean, I don't know the situation, so I can't judge, but it seems to me that a kid's talents are the one thing that will save them.

Oh well, my kids are preadolescent, so I have this to look forward to...

as she proves she can be trusted. Hopefully it will mean more to her then as opposed to when she was just given things. She did make the honor roll last semester when she was trying to earn the opportunity to go to the School of Rock. Things were so much easier when she was small. You do have some fun times to look forward to.

I wish I could offer you advice from first hand experience. I do know that sometimes you have to make the tough choices because the only thing that will get through is to lose the stuff that hurts. I think it's good that she's doing well in school now, even if she skipped a class. I think the boyfriend is more worrisome. I hope everything works out :hug:

Actually, my daughter cut three night school classes--she only got caught on the 3rd when the school called to ask where she was. So missing 3 classes in 3 weeks is not good. The teacher said she should drop her, but would give her another chance since she is doing well in regular school. You are right, the boyfriend situation is much more worrisome and is most likely at the heart of much of the problem.

I don't blame you for being worried and frustrated at the situation at all. You're right, 3 times isn't good. I feel for you. She sounds like she's basically a good, talented kid going through a rough patch. That she has parents that care for her and want the best for her goes a long way. 15 was a rough year for me, too. Probably the worst. I had my first real relationship, too, with someone too old for me, and then my grades dropped. My parents, who split that year, were fit to be tied. But we all made it through.

she's a teenager. Teenagers are beings who are only partially in control of themselves due to so many changes and hormones and of course, the learning experiences that go unnoticed until they hit their late 30's or so.

doing great in school... met a married man... then I married somebody else I had only know a few weeks... had a dead baby. This was just between ages 15 and 19.

Shit. I remember it all too well.

Here I am at 15. My father used to call me Datebait...

The School of Rock thing sounds like a positive factor in her life. If I were you, I would reconsider taking that away as a punishment or consequence. I'm not saying she doesn't need to face consequences for poor behavior, but I'm not sure that that particular thing is the best choice (just based on what you've said).

I'm saying this from the perspective of someone who was a very rebellious 15 year old once, and is now a hard working graduate student who is about to buy a house, is happily married, etc. When I was 15, I wasn't a bad kid inside, but I was struggling with depression and was unmotivated to be in school (high schools suck for kids that are smart or different). The harder my parents clamped down, the harder I rebelled. I basically flunked out of high school my sophomore year, and had to change schools, and I had some problems with drugs. But what really helped me get past the worst stage was having a goal that I could hang on to - I was a musician also, and eventually I just got more into that than drugs and sneaking out and stuff. It helped that my parents were supportive of my music the whole time, even when I wasn't doing well in school otherwise. I'm not sure I would have grown out of the bad stage quite as quickly without the music to hold on to - it's what gave me self-esteem at a time when I didn't have anything else to feel good about myself about. And my parents eventually relaxed a little bit, which gave me the freedom to think about what I really wanted out of life instead of spending all my energy struggling against their rules. When I had more control over the decisions I made, I actually tended to make better ones than when my parents were trying to be in control (sounds counter-intuitive, but I've seen it with other teenagers also). I also went to college on a full-ride music scholarship (although I do something else now), so it wasn't a waste of time in terms of the "real world" either.

Anyway, it's just a thought. I hope everything works out for you and your daughter.

That was her mother's and stepfather's decision and I am not going to get into the middle of it. She may be able to earn the right to go back again, but I certainly don't see that happening until this summer. I am going to send her a card today not to chew her out, but to let her know that although I am disappointed in her decision that I love her and believe in her and that I am confident that she can get on the right path if she tries. Pretty much all she needs to do now, which was all she needed to do before, is to attend an easy school and to do as well as she is capable of doing and to stop the lying and sneaking around.

Like a beach cleanup crew or shelter cage cleaners. I don't suggest it to be rude or unfair to her, but only because physical exercise and socializing with service-oriented people might be good for her.

...but that'll have to be up to her, I suspect.

a world of good. Also, she'd have all of your attention rather

than have to compete with her step-dad for Mom's.

Maybe being with you, her bio Dad would be a great thing, it's

at least worth a try.

NOTE: This is "general" opinion, and not intended as a personal criticism of you, or your life decisions. These are my first thoughts about dealing with a teenager in crisis, and the circumstances that put her there. Its "free advice" and I am NOT in control of you or your life, so when you ignore it, I'm not going to be offended. With those caveats in mind, read on ---

a) Why expect her to take responsibility for anything, when you aren't around as an example? I am specifically referring to the fact you live in two different states, and are thus NOT a part of her daily life. I am sure you have important and valid reasons for this type of "neglect," but frankly, her behavior is not unexpected. (And, if your ex left the state, and you let her take the kids, you can still follow after if you want to be a part of their lives.) If your sanity, or finances, or whatever made you move (or not follow, or whatever) was more important than daily parenting of your children, how do you expect them to behave? Isn't she simply following the example YOU have provided -- by doing exactly what she wants, and ignoring the long term consequences?

b) This child (and she's still a child) has ONE real parent living with her, and a step-father, who frankly, is no one to her. He's just the guy currently sleeping with her mother (and pray God not molesting her!), while you are the one who brought her into the world who she loves and respects. (In theory, anyway -- frankly, the abandonment issues she's dealing with from parents in separate states usually result in the type of behavior you've observed, and unless you get things straightened up, we're talking YEARS of therapy! Personally, I'd put even money on your becoming a "grandpa" before she's out of her teens -- and it has NOTHING to do with whether or not birth control is "available," but more about yearning to fill the empty place in her heart where a consistent love from a present father should be, instead of the anger and resentment at not being "important enough" to sacrifice for.) The two people actually responsible for your daughter's behavior are YOU and your Ex. Not around to help take care of things? MOVE CLOSER. Will it be hard on you? Will it disrupt your life? Yes. You've got three years left, and then you can put yourself first. Until then, YOUR KIDS COME FIRST.

c) One of the best sources I know for common sense advice is "Parenting Your Out of Control Child," a book that is available very inexpensively at Amazon. Get a copy. Read it. Use the extremely useful techniques in it to help her get her life back in gear. Being a teenager is already hard work, but being a teenager with divorced parents living in separate states is a nightmare. Can she survive and thrive with it? Yes. People survive and thrive with all kinds of handicaps, but that doesn't make it easy, and it ignores the fact that MANY DON'T. Why would you want your child WHO YOU LOVE to face life with the emotional equivalent of having one hand tied behind her back?

d) Will you and your ex agree about everything that can/should be done to get her back on track? Probably not. You will both have to sit down, suck up your own personal issues, and put your daughter's needs FIRST. My guess is that you won't do that (sorry!), but frankly its the only way. If you don't do it, then if your daughter succeeds in life, it will have been IN SPITE OF YOU, instead of BECAUSE OF YOU. And that's a pretty sad thing to have to say about being a parent.

e) Finally, a last selfish thought that may or may not motivate you. The odds are good that "someday" you will be officially "old" and in poor health. You may or may not have a trustworthy, dependable spouse around to take care of you either because you haven't found one worth keeping, or may have lost them due to age/illness previously. Regardless, it will be a time when you will yearn for the loving comfort of your children/grandchildren. You might want to think about the type of example you are setting when it comes to "inconveniencing your life" for the benefit of others. If you break your hip, require chemo for cancer, or need regular assistance due to Alzheimer's, MS, or Parkinson's, have you really EARNED the right to expect anything other than an occasional phone call and perhaps a little financial help? I will admit that this is a very "selfish" reason for a parent to "do the right thing," but frankly, I think its something to consider. Donating genetic material and paying child support do NOT a good parent make. Instilling the FEAR OF GOD into a child so that they would rather go to school everyday (despite disappointing a boyfriend) rather than face YOUR WRATH is kind of the "bare minimum" of being a good dad. (And I'm not talking "wrath" like "screaming/yelling" -- I'm talking "wrath" like the book suggests -- customized for each individual child, and exquisitely perfect as a result.)

Good luck!

I have been far more involved in my daughter's life than many ex-husbands are with their children. Until last summer my daughter would spend summers with me and I also saw her on every holiday and she sometimes spent those with me also. My house is the only home that she has known all of her life. We are very close and speak every week and I do send her cards nearly every week. Her mom has been married to her stepfather for 8 years now, so she has known him most of her life and he is certainly more than a man with whom her mother sleeps. Her brother has a different father. My daughter's major responsibility was to actually attend school and to do the best she can, along with stopping the lying and sneaking around. This is certainly not too much to ask and I think that most of us here were probably able to manage to attend our school. I am confident that I have done the best I can although hindsight is always 20/20. Whatever my daughter's difficulties may be she knows that there are people who love her and believe in her and are watching out for her best interests and that she lives in a safe home. Even my daughter's brother, who is 17 and in the Army now, told his mom when he was home for Christmas told his mother that he now appreciates how I was always there and how they knew they could depend upon me. So I don't think I have anything to be ashamed about because I have done the best I could.

were mistaken about whether or not you are good dad, and how important it is for your daughter's sake that you are involved in her life EVERY SINGLE DAY. It was eloquent, and painful, and it nailed you to a wall about how your actions/inactions impact her emotional and mental development.

Then the computer went wonky, and I lost it all. Sigh.

I'm not going to retype it. I'm going to say this: I don't think you are doing what is best for your daughter; I think you are doing what is best for you.

What is best for your daughter is having you involved in her life Every Single Day (and her mom, too). Step-Daddy is not the same thing. She is 15 years old, and it is HER PARENTS RESPONSIBILITY to get her but into class EVERY SINGLE DAY. That doesn't mean "mom and step-dad" -- it means "MOM AND DAD."

She has one responsibility -- go to school. You have one responsibility -- HER. If she is not the most important thing in your life, to the point where you would chop off a limb to save her from ruining her life, then it isn't any wonder that her life is heading into the crapper. She will pick men who will not be good for her, who will mistreat her, who will neglect her, who will not be there for her emotionally.

In other words, she's going to hook up with her father.

Its not your job to be liked; its your job to be the DAD. You are not a checkbook; you are the Authority Figure. It doesn't matter whether or not she likes you more than her mother (why not? its not like you are standing over her with a whip forcing her to do her homework, clean her room, get up on time for school, wear age appropriate clothing, etc. like her mother is), because she shouldn't -- You Are Her Parents, and as parents, you are supposed to be PARENTING HER.

You can't do that from another state. Or at least you can't do it very well.

Quit comparing yourself to "people who are worse than you" and start measuring yourself against a higher standard -- the ones who are doing BETTER than you. Then start emulating them.

If she fails, it is going to be because of YOU. If you don't start doing more, if she succeeds in life, it will have been IN SPITE OF YOU. I am telling you, as a total stranger, that you aren't doing enough. Go google "teenage girls and absent fathers" to find out if I'm making this stuff up. Don't blame the messenger for pointing out the obvious; look at yourself, and decide whether or not this is really the legacy you want to leave someone you love.

End lecture.

If you are seeking perfection, you are on the wrong side of heaven. Each of us can only do the best we can in our own way. Eleanor Roosevelt said that nobody can make you feel guilty without your consent. I refuse to consent to feeling guilty and neither do I accept condemnation for doing the best that I am able to do. Apparently the messenger, from their lofty vantage and viewpoint, is confusing themselves with God.

Honestly, some people have some nerve.

:eyes:

Anyway, my advice is to not worry. Sounds like you've got a perfectly normal teenager on your hands.

to be a model of perfect self-sacrifice than to be a model of perfect self-centeredness.

perfection. I expect PARENTING. You are living in the real world, and so is she. YOU MATTER TO HER. YOU ARE HER EXAMPLE OF HOW TO LIVE HER LIFE. YOU ARE IMPORTANT TO HER.

The bottom line is this: she needs you to be there to kick her butt into doing what is good and right. I am not trying to make you feel guilty (what's the point in that?), but I am pointing out that something needs to change -- and it isn't JUST her behavior.

Look, right now you consider yourself a "good dad who is THERE for his daughter" but in this post you have talked about the following:

-- Your daughter is flunking out of high school.
-- Your daughter started dating an 18 year old at age 14.
-- Your daughter is now dating a 19 year old at age 15 (which is a "serious" relationship).
-- Your daughter is skipping school.
-- Your daughter is lying to the authority figures in her life with complete contempt.

You haven't stated this, but you have no idea whether or not she is doing drugs, abusing alcohol, or having unprotected sex on a regular basis because you are only getting the "voice on the phone" once a week or so, where she can say whatever she wants to you because if she lies to you, you can't tell; you have to rely on the other adults around her to tell you what is *really* going on. (Did the school call you or her mother? Did she lie to you about being at her boyfriend's house? What do *you* think about her friends -- the ones she is bringing around, and/or their parents? Have you met them? Is she hanging with a good crowd? Etc.)

Do you honestly believe you have done EVERYTHING HUMANLY POSSIBLE (and maybe you have) to be the BEST PARENT SHE COULD POSSIBLY HAVE BEEN GIFTED WITH?

Look, if you can't move there because it just isn't feasible, why not take a vacation for a couple of weeks, and SIT ON HER? For example, pull the classic "don't just escort her to school, but stay there with her" move because she can't be trusted. (There is an incredible scene from some recent basketball movie about the first time African Americans won the NCAA title -- I forget the name -- where one of the players started goofing off because the coach couldn't be any worse on him than he already was. The coach called in his mother, who made sure he got his homework done, and then sat behind him in class making sure her boy was "participating" -- beautiful! No more slacking off for that child! Chuckle!) Be over at your ex's home when the boyfriend stops by "cleaning the family shotgun" casually, and mention to him calmly that if you *ever* have reason to suspect he's guilty of statutory rape, you've got no problems sending him to jail for the next twenty years. Demand a drug test, take away her drums, find out the buttons to push to get her back under control, DO WHATEVER IT TAKES. Sit down and do some serious brainstorming about how you can get this kid back on track before she completely ruins her life -- and that of your future grandchildren.

Quit pretending you are helpless to impact your daughter's life -- you are NOT helpless, and the power you wield isn't just that of the checkbook. BELIEVE ME when I say you are *NOT* in an impossible situation -- just an unpleasant one. You can get through this, and so can she.

This is the real world, and you are responsible for her. Please understand that a total stranger is officially BEGGING YOU to get more involved with your daughter. I can't make you do it; I don't give a crap if you feel guilty, or not. I just want you to change your behavior, and in so doing, change hers before its too late.

Good luck. I won't reply again, because it must be irritating having someone say these things to you, even if they are the truth. You wanted an honest answer, and I gave you several. Talk to a therapist, talk to a professional, pick up some books on the topic (I still recommend "Parenting Your Out of Control Child" at Amazon), go to the Savannah Family Institute Web Site, do some googling, for the sake of all that is holy: DO SOMETHING OTHER THAN PLAYING WITH THE MONEY because frankly, she's not a whore, so buying her behavior isn't the answer.

Many wouldn't even care enough to post here.

You were totally out of line here. Your preaching is disgusting.

his daughter is on the wrong track on an internet chat board and actually doing NOTHING about parenting his own child? I think you have a warped view of reality, and a weird view of decent parenting. Either way, common freaking sense is obviously NOT your strong suit. You keep feeling sorry for this poor absent daddy fellow; I'll reserve my sympathy for his grandchildren, who will most likely start arriving before she's out of her teens.

:eyes:

...for you to judge him so harshly. He was asking for a little advice not a sermon. It appears you have a few issues with your own lack of paternal parenting and are over compensating in your quest to be the perfect parent. Sorry, but one size doesn't fit all and you don't have all the answers for everyone. Jumping to conclusions and making strong judgements without knowing all the facts seems to be your strong suit.

I saw classic projection all over these posts.

Be there for your kid, or stay uninvolved out of state.

Pretend there is nothing you can do, or actually get off your *ss, and DO SOMETHING (like parenting your own child).

Feel guilty, or justified, or whatever. I don't really care -- I'm not the one who is going to have to watch my grandchildren grow up in poverty when they start arriving soon while their mother (who will have dropped out of high school at the rate she's going) has no job skills because she has no education.

Oh, but I forgot: she can DRUM really good! So that makes flunking out of high school, skipping school, lying to the adults around her, and "dating" a 19 year old GOOD THINGS. Damn, I didn't realize this thread was all about ME (who did none of those things, by the way, but did watch a couple of sisters do it, so what do I know?)!

:sarcasm:

She is going to have kids in the next year and live forever in poverty? Really? Would that I had your powers of prognostication.

You're supporting my point. Your sisters did it, you experienced bad parenting, so obviously that's what lies in wait for everyone else. Others of us also had less than perfect parenting but built our own lives, paid our own way and don't blame the folks.

There's nothing wrong with her applying herself to the development of a talent and the perfection of a craft. That may be her salvation, in fact. How? She can play music. She can teach. She can become a musicologist. She can apply those powers of passion and concentration to a completely different career. No learning is a waste.

My sisters behaved normally for the situation they were in, which is a pretty common one. I'm an "exception to the rule" person, and I know there are others out there who are the same. I can pretty obviously make the following statements tho:

If you are flunking out of high school --

If you are skipping school --

If you are dating age inappropriate men at 14 and 15 years old --

If you are lying with complete contempt to the adults around you --

Then odds are good that without some serious intervention, you are on a BAD PATH.

Can you overcome it? A lot of people do -- and a lot of people don't.

Who is mainly responsible for getting a teenager back on track? HER PARENTS. (That would be the Mom, and the Original Poster.) Any help from concerned teachers, social workers, etc. is bonus, and frankly, not to be counted on.

These things are RED FLAGS for a reason. They show "teenagers in crisis" and what happens next is COMMON PLACE.

On a personal note, my family has a nice mix of people who made good choices, and bad choices. The ones who finished high school avoided becoming unwed teenage moms, while the druggie/flunkie folks didn't. There is a clear financial cost to some of the decisions that were made as teenagers -- raising an infant, for example, as opposed to getting further education -- which continues to impact the economic lives of everyone. Yes, there was "bad parenting" involved in some instances (parents don't treat every child the same), but there was also "good parenting" in some instances, too. Explaining my family dynamics would require a book length post, and while interesting to some, is really beside the point.

In your world, a 15 year old may not need her father around, and her future life success may be such that he doesn't matter. I disagree with this premise. I think its important for children to have INVOLVED PARENTS. Can she succeed in spite of this? Yes, but her CHANCES go down dramatically. And what the hell kind of loving father would want to give his baby girl less than the best opportunities he can provide? Money isn't all that this 15 year old girl needs -- she needs her DAD!!! Not for much longer, mind you -- but she still needs him NOW.

I agree with you that "no learning is a waste," but I think you are overestimating the current passions of a 15 year old (drumming), and just how much of a chance a high school drop out is going to have making money as a "musicologist." Maybe there will be people who want to take lessons from her in drumming, and its possible she can make a good income from that, but (did you read the part where she lost all of her freshman credits, and is skipping school?) I'm not an "all my eggs in one basket" type of person. SHE NEEDS HER HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA. If that isn't a big deal to you, what can I say? We have different value systems.

As a final note on my family, let me say this with complete confidence: with seven brothers and sisters, 15 nieces and nephews, a small hoard of in-laws and out-laws, and multiple generations of some really weird stuff, there isn't much that I haven't already seen. I can pull examples of "good and bad" about pretty much ANYTHING from SOMEWHERE in my immediate family, and have a pretty clear idea of where some of the messed up stuff came from three generations back. (We have three generations of 'abandonment issues' on one side alone!) I get that people do the best they can, but honestly, sometimes that just isn't good enough.

Call it projection, or call it common sense -- if this was your child, would you be living out of state while she's going through this crap? Or would you be moving heaven and earth to be as much a part of her life as you possibly could? What do you think a GOOD PARENT would be doing? (No public answer required, by the way.)

You may be someone who doesn't believe children need their parents. That's okay. If that's true, that is what you think, and nothing anyone can say will change your mind. I give this kid a 20% chance of not completely screwing up her life, but that's just based on how common her situation is; I hope she overcomes everything, and everyone lives happily ever after. The odds aren't good, but people still win the lotto, right?

Say, maybe her father could take those 'School of Rock' dollars, and invest in lotto tickets for her....

because I'm using what is referred to as "Common Sense." He asked (several days ago) for advice on a situation he is actually going to be doing NOTHING about. His ex and her current spouse are making all the decisions, and he's not even taking responsibility for his own parenting duties. He talks on the phone once a week, pays his child support, sees his daughter in the summers and on some holidays -- I do just as much as an Aunt -- and is asking WHAT he can do to make sure his daughter doesn't completely screw up her life (which she is well on the way to doing).

Part One of an obvious answer is: BE A DAILY PART OF HIS CHILD'S LIFE. Duh! Followed up by such other common sense advice as "Be a Positive Role Model" and "Be Actively Involved In Your Child's Life By Knowing Their Friends/Significant Others" and that biggie: "Make Sure She Goes To School Everyday, Does Her Homework, and Gets Good Grades."

Like it or not, he is NOT parenting his child -- you can't do that from another state. That is not an opinion -- that is reality. I get you don't understand that, but that's okay. Maybe you don't have kids, maybe you are an orphan, or maybe the reality of the situation is hitting a little too close to home, and you feel like I'm commenting on your own situation because its possible you are doing the same thing, or have relationships with people who display a similar lack of loyalty to their offspring. I really don't care WHAT your problem is that makes you keep making PERSONAL attacks on me, but honestly, I am considering the source, and not even that offended because I don't think you have a clue what you are talking about (making decisions that are in the best interests of children as opposed to the best interests of parents), which requires a level of maturity and self-sacrifice that not ALL "parents" are willing to make.

In the meantime, you seem to be good at "jumping to conclusions and making strong judgments without knowing all the facts" -- which just goes to show that you can usually tell how people see their OWN character flaws in other people!

from my own personal experience. No, I don't have any kids so I guess I really don't know what the f** I'm talking about when it comes to parenting. But, I did have two that didn't do such a great job. I was given up for adoption by my biological father when I was 2 to my stepdad who was never around & left the parenting to my mother who was very strict and controlling.

I went through a rebellious stage but went on to graduate from high school early by attending night school, put myself through two years of college by working two jobs & became a successful business owner in addition to having a successful career in sales. I've done well for myself despite the imperfections of my parents and never once did I blame them for anything. I refused to be a victim of bad parenting. Maybe I was one of the lucky ones, I don't know. But I always understood they were only human with flaws and their own issues and I realized at a young age that my life and success depended on me and me only.

Maybe that gives you an idea of where I'm coming from. My issue with your posts was with your demeaning tone and preachiness. There are ways to get your point across without being so offensive & condescending.

can ever learn -- we are really responsible for ourselves, and our own success! That being said....

The problem with "poor parenting" unfortunately, is part of the infamous "what is normal" stuff -- is it normal to be dealing with a raging alcoholic in the household? If you think so, odds are good you are going to hook up with a raging alcoholic (or become one). Some people display a great deal of maturity and self-awareness, and learn to "examine" their own lives, and the unspoken assumptions they were raised with, while others don't, and even if you do your best to live an "examined" life, its still easy to get tripped up by the stuff you don't even realize you've absorbed.

I get that parents are going to screw up, lose their tempers, have bad days, etc. (and so will their kids), and to a certain extent, that's okay. It helps everyone learn about "consequences" and being human, and stuff. BUT one of the "basics" is "be a part of your child's daily life." I can refer you to your own example of your bio-dad -- was he a "good parent" to you? Or, comparatively speaking, was your step-dad the "real deal?" What do you think YOUR kids (should you ever choose to have them) would prefer? Do you ever see yourself as someone who could walk away from a two-year? (No public answer is expected; these are private questions only!)

They say most people taking college psych courses are trying to figure out their own family dynamics, and I confess that "back in the day" that is what I did. My family requires a flow chart to keep track of the blood siblings, half blood siblings, steps, in-laws and outlaws, and has for several generations. (On my step-father's side, he had an "unusual for nowadays" situation where two brothers married two sisters, everybody had kids, then one of each spouse set died, the remaining spouses married each other, and then proceeded to have more kids!) Anyway, there is a big history of "abuse" in my family, and one of my biggest fears about becoming a parent myself is whether or not I was going to be condemned to repeat the cycle. I've worked hard on my own issues so that I don't; in the meantime, I've watched A LOT of parenting mistakes, studied a lot both in a college environment, and on my own, volunteered on crisis lines (which meant learning a lot more "practical" stuff about family dynamics to be honest than a lot of the college classes), and also tried to help pick up the pieces of some of the more "disastrous" decisions people have made. I am a *huge* advocate for children, and while a lot of that is unpleasant for some people, I am not looking to make life easier on "the grown-ups" -- I want the children to start with as much "going for them" as they possibly can.

What you found offensive and condescending about my post is stuff I'm going to stick by -- the original poster is not being a "good dad" despite his thinking he is. Being a dad is about more than money; its about BEING THERE EVERY DAY. He has a choice in the matter, while his 15 year old doesn't; there is NOTHING she can do (except maybe become a bit of hellion?) to get his attention, and get him THERE. She's got a ton of reasons to resent him, but undoubtedly still loves him, because that is what children do, and at some level, her very survival depends on him. A good parent is one who puts his child's needs FIRST -- I'm not saying to go stupid about the topic and become a martyr to your child's life, because that isn't a good example, either -- I'm saying BE THERE as an example, as a loving, supporting, nurturing presence who teaches discipline and how to live. Most teenagers are obnoxious idiots who make stupid decisions sometimes, and its their parents' jobs to help them "learn better."

You can't do that if you aren't THERE.

Is there a nicer way of saying such a painful truth? I don't know of one. A ton of people on this planet think sending money is really all that they are obligated to do, and many of them resent doing that much. They make children, and then move on to new lives; new spouses don't like "reminders" of previous issue, and aren't happy that the new families have to give up resources -- meaning time and money -- to deal with "the other family." Sometimes "walking away" seems like a good idea, but I don't think it is -- I think sometimes its just plain easier.

If this 15 year old girl came on this board and said, "I want my daddy here!" what would you say to her? Would you criticize her for wanting the man who helped bring her into the world around more? Do you think she is going to have the "self awareness" at this stage of her life to KNOW that is what she wants, especially when she has loyalty issues between her mother, her step-father, and her bio-dad?

The adults in this kid's life have really dealt her a challenging hand. In addition to overcoming "normal life," she now has to overcome the emotional handicaps on "normal" relationships they've dealt her. She's hooked up with a 19 year old man looking for a stable male relationship -- and I hope I don't have to put in an eye roll icon to point out just how "unsafe" looking for "stable" with a 19 year old male is most likely going to be!

Can she overcome it? Frankly, if something doesn't change, I give her a 20% chance. She's not a firstborn to her mother (the 17 year old on his way to Iraq is that), so the odds of her being a super responsible raving codependent who will pull herself up by her bootstraps aren't on her side. She's the youngest, and she's going to look for someone to take care of her, whether that be her REAL daddy, or the surrogate boyfriend. (Again, please keep in mind that I am making GENERAL statements that apply to a high percentage of teenagers in her situation, and not the specific case put forth by the original poster -- I don't know the people involved, but I can intuit a lot from the fact that this type of situation is COMMON, but a COMMON PLACE SITUATION isn't necessarily a GOOD one; take living in poverty, for example -- a lot of people do it, but is it really how you want people you love to live?)

Either way, I'm not going to tell a peripherally involved parent who lives out of state whose daughter is flunking out of high school, skipping classes, dating an age inappropriate boyfriend, and lying to the adults around her with complete contempt that wringing his hands from a distance is the BEST he can do in the situation. There are books, therapists, internet websites with professionals giving advice, and basic common sense stuff that can better help him deal with what is going on. She isn't the only problem -- HE has been a strong contributing factor with his negligence. He might not like hearing that -- being a neglectful parent isn't a pretty thing to face in the mirror, but its the truth, and I said it -- but he is in COMPLETE CONTROL over what he's doing. HE is in charge of his own behavior; he's the ADULT. He's SUPPOSED to be the one taking care of HER.

I am pleased you overcame your own challenges. I think I've done a good job of overcoming most of mine, but we'll see when my kids become teenagers and start telling tales on how "awful" I was! With my luck, I'll raise a couple of neat freaks who will tell tales of dust bunnies that took over the house! (snicker)

The bottom line is that this isn't about ME -- its about HIS DAUGHTER and what is best for her. Maybe she really is better off without him being a part of her life (it happens), but frankly, I doubt it. Its an anonymous message board, and he never has to see me, or read a word I write ever again. Heaven knows I'm not the most tactful person on the planet, but the one thing I've got going for me is this: I don't tell lies FOR ANYBODY. I may be completely wrong about stuff, but I'm NEVER going to lie, especially about something so important as children.

I hope he picks up a copy of "Parenting Your Out of Control Child." Its got some of the most practical, useful advice I've ever read about getting and keeping kids on track when they start going down self-destructive paths. I know how frustrating it can be for parents when they feel helpless to stop their kids from destroying their lives, and I know how high the price is when the worst happens. I'll stop here.

Anyway, if the original poster wants to do something, he's been given the information he needs; if he decides he's too busy, then he will most likely stop worrying about it soon, until he's ready to complain when things get worse. He's the boss; he's in control. I'll probably never know how the story ends, but I truly hope it all works out, and everybody lives happily ever after....

filled with damaged people who were raised in intact homes with a mom and a dad. I've seen loving, well-intended, but woefully clueless families come to grief. My father 'instilled the fear of God' in me and I'm still recovering from it.

I've seen children respect their parents for making difficult choices. The parent grappled with their limitations and made the best choice from a number of alternative ones.

As for "real" parents, I am sure young widows would be glad to know that you don't permit them to marry again. After all, their new spouses are just some guy they're sleeping with. If the father had been truly responsible, he wouldn't have died. How thoughtless of him.

Gay and lesbians will be most interested in your definition of "real" parents, too.

Googling 'teenage sons absent mothers' doesn't come up with the same results. So it doesn't work the other way around?

"There are more things in heaven and earth, ,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Shakespeare, Hamlet.

Let us start with a basic premise -- the best thing for a child is to be raised in a loving, supportive two parent family. (I don't care whether they are gay or not; you've decided to broach that topic, but the reality of this "family" situation is that there is A mother and A father, so let's try to stick with it, ok? Although to be fair, if it was a "two mommy family" or a "two daddy family" I would still have been making the point that BOTH parents are important in a child's life.)

There are many studies that show strong differences in how children respond to being in a single parent home due to death as opposed to divorce/broken relationship. When someone is dead, there may be issues re: grief/death/guilt, etc. but the dead person doesn't usually have a choice about coming back and being a part of the child's life, movies like "Ghost" notwithstanding.

With divorce or an otherwise broken relationship, a LIVING person gets to make a decision about whether or not to participate in raising their child, and how much they wish to do so. If a child is "abandoned" because the other person isn't around, then you usually have a whole bunch of "issues" to deal with later revolving around that. Anecdotally, my biological father (who suffered from mental illness) did not and was not allowed to participate in raising me, which as an adult I completely understand and support due to the safety issues involved with his problems; however, when it came time for me to interact with adult males, I had many issues regarding trust and intimacy to work through because of it. While I repeat that is ANECDOTAL, I have since learned this is NOT a unique experience for an adult child of divorce, and in fact, is extremely common. My personal observations with friends and family also bear this out, but the extensive studies on the topic are available with google.

Studies also show that children respond in healthier ways to divorce (or broken relationships) when they see both parents "happier" in their new lives. For example, if you are married to someone who is committing Abuse, has un addressed Addiction Issues, or is committing Adultery, then obviously it is most likely in the best interest of the children to terminate the relationship so they don't end up believing this is "normal" and seek out mates with similar issues. (Again, presuming that you've done all you can do to get things worked out, etc. It does take two to make a relationship work, and if one person decides to sabotage a relationship because of character flaws (broad brush!), then obviously self preservation needs to kick in! But, the "sane" spouse needs to address their personal issues as well -- what made them pick such a partner in the first place? If the signs were always there, what personal demons helped them to do the "love is blind, AND deaf, AND dumb" routine? And what do they need to do to avoid stepping into the same unhealthy relationship with the next person?)

Step-parenting is a tough situation, and is obviously unique to each situation. Personally, I was raised by a step-father, which was both good and bad. I have one niece who is on "Daddy #6" at age 15; shall we discuss how messed up her attitude toward healthy relationships is? As she explained last year (at age 14), the current live-in "will live there for a while, then break up with her mom, and then her mom will get a new boyfriend, and it will all start all over again." Again, my niece is being "normal" for the situation her mother has created. (She was even married to a couple of the "daddies.") That is why I am bluntly stating that in the original poster's situation, he needs to quit depending on Step-Daddy to do HIS duties (which include parenting his own child). Please keep in mind that, while we don't know much about Mommy, we do know that she has two children by two different men, one of whom she wasn't married to (the original poster), and is currently married to a third man. I am sure there is more to the story than that, but none of it absolves the Original Poster from PARENTING HIS OWN CHILD.

As for your issue with widows and widowers, I will repeat that step-parenting is a definite challenge, and unique to each situation. Of course widows and widowers can remarry, but the bottom line is, their children should come first, which is not an easy thing to ask a new spouse to always respect. Sleeping with a child's mother does not automatically entitle you to respect, even if there is a ring on your finger. Most children will initially resent the interloper, and even if they like the person, there is going to be conflict as compromises and rules are set. Of course, a step-parent should NEVER lay hands in punishment upon a step-child, and unfortunately, there is a lot of sexual abuse taking place in homes with "new daddy's" because of the traditional "incest" taboo not being as strong. (And yes, I am aware of the stats on "incest" and am not implying that is doesn't take place.)

The bottom line is this: the daughter in the original poster's message has ONE responsibility -- GO TO SCHOOL. The Original Poster has ONE responsibility -- PARENT HIS CHILD. Doing that from another state is not possible, especially when children require DAILY interaction from loving parents. There are always a thousand and one excuses for not doing the right thing, but none of that changes what the right thing is, and in this case, BEING THERE FOR YOUR CHILD is what should matter.

I am NOT going to say that "being there" will solve everything, or that loving, supportive two parent families can't still end up with children who make bad choices, but putting UNNECESSARY roadblocks (like living in a different state) into an already difficult situation (raising a teenager) is literally trying to deal with a situation with one hand tied behind your back.

As for the "fear of God", if you don't understand that I am not referring to beatings, but instead that "oh, my God, I don't want to have to explain to my parents why I got caught skipping school so I'd better not do it!" terror, then I can't help you. Children will make mistakes, parents will too, and hopefully, that whole concept of "consequences" will be learned. That's part of the "un-fun" job of parenting -- to literally WORK YOURSELF OUT OF A JOB so your kids don't NEED you anymore (because you have learned how to be responsible, go to work everyday, have good values, pick a good spouse, etc.) all by example and instruction.

I believe children are the most important people in the world, and that the world does revolve around them. Part of making sure they are happy involves making sure I provide a good example of being in a loving, supportive, healthy marriage, which means I have to make sure their father and I continue to have a good marriage. If something happens (God forbid!), and my spouse is not around anymore, then it will be my job to continue taking care of my children. (I am a grown up who is capable of taking care of myself.) If I am lucky enough to find a second relationship who understands that my number one priority will ALWAYS be my children, then I can count myself as fortunate. But, if there's one seat left in the lifeboat on a sinking ship, its my child who is going to get it -- and trying to live this value system while making sure not to raise a spoiled brat is ALSO part of my responsibility as a Good Parent!

This answer was longer than I intended. You may not agree with it, and you may be okay with "adequate" parenting. I have a higher standard, and whether the Original Poster agrees with it or not is something I can't do anything about -- this is an anonymous message board, and frankly, who cares about my opinion anyway? So I don't have a lot of respect for "long distance parenting" -- who cares? So I don't respect people who ignore their children for "new relationships" and "new opportunities" -- who cares? So I'm not big on accepting excuses for why someone PRETENDS to be helpless to impact their child's decisions -- who cares? I have a low respect for Stupid -- who cares? The original poster can continue to blame his teenager for making dumb choices, while completely ignoring the example he himself has set for the rest of his life, and then when the common place occurs (she hooks up with an older guy, gets pregnant, drops out of high school, and lives in near poverty conditions for the rest of her life) happens, he can be all surprised about it because it really had NOTHING to do with him, right? Right? He's a "good dad" who is "there" for kid (except for the fact that as a voice on the phone once a week, he really isn't).

That's my opinion, anyway. But I'm a practical woman with the triple whammy of an education on the topic through college courses and volunteer work, private study, and personal experience/observation, so again, who cares?

:)

Best, Ida

Glad you got it all figured out.

Cheers,

Ellen.

I've obviously given the topic a lot of thought (!) and I am confident that I am going to make mistakes, but everyone does the best they can. Some of the obvious ones (like actually being AROUND your child regularly) seem exactly that -- obvious, but not everyone agrees.

Personally, I think single parents have it harder than two-parent families. In addition to being responsible for the financial well being of your household, you also have to maintain your household (laundry, cleaning, cooking, etc.), monitor the physical health of your children/take them to the doctors/dentists as needed, make sure they are taught good manners, good habits, good values, etc., instill a sense of self worth/help them to KNOW they are valued, spend time with them, encourage them in school and extracurricular activities, deal with their emotional angst, teenage rebellions, and everybody's occasional completely understandable human bad moods, all while maintaining vigilance against ten thousand and one dangers to the health, safety, and general well being of everyone involved in the household.

My head explodes just THINKING about it! LOL! At least in a two-parent household, when that clever, obnoxious teenage lawyer (who used to think you were God because you knew EVERYTHING a few years ago) pushes that final button that they KNOW will set you off as a raving lunatic, there is a chance to take a breath, and pull a "tag team" -- YOU DEAL WITH IT moment with your partner!!!

My great-grandmother used to say that she wouldn't take a million dollars for any of her kids, but there were days when she wouldn't have given you a plug nickel for them, either, while my mother has assured me that if birth control were retroactive, not one of us would have survived our teenage years.

Parenting is hard work and a huge responsibility. I wish more people took it seriously, but since I'm convinced the human race doesn't necessarily breed for intelligence (and, at one level, its an awful lot of work with years of only "mental" rewards -- the warm feeling of viewing your innocent babe sleeping, the lovingly crafted macaroni art, the spontaneous hug from small arms), I guess the current system helps it survive.

Saying she wants to be a star is like a kid saying he wants to play with the Yankees. It just is not going to happen. Somehow she needs a reality lesson. I have no idea how to do that, unfortunately.

Those truly possessed by the muse cannot do otherwise. It is her choice to live the life of a musician, or to walk away.

I think that the self-discipline instilled by perfecting a craft is transferrable to any occupation.

When they are kids, how do you determine which ones will and which ones won't so you can bring them back to reality? I just saw on Oprah the other day a kid who is determined that he will one day be President of the United States and is already campaigning and everybody thought that was great, but it is hardly realistic. If my daughter wanted to go to Harvard everybody would think that would be a great goal albeit unrealistic. She probably won't be a star, but I'm not ready yet to step on her dream and bring her back to reality. Drumming would still be a great lifelong hobby that she would enjoy.

and played in the Majors. It took years of applying himself to get there. Then he broke his thumb and was cut. He went back to college and wound up in financial management. My point is

some people do make it (but only because their spririt wasn't crushed by everyone who told them "you can't"), and

kids who apply themselves hard to ANYTHING, will go on to succeed in SOMETHING

i also believe the kid knows it, ironically it's the dad who doesn't know that his beautiful brilliant daughter is not going to be a star and she doesn't know how to tell him except by acting up

my situation exactly except it was mom and not dad

parents have illusions and as a teen you can't just sit and tell them, look mom, i'm not going to be a rock star, get over it, so you have to MAJORLY screw up to send the message

Try to maintain your relationship so at some point in the future, if she wishes to talk, she will be able to communicate with you. It is difficult having a teen like this, and we must take a lot of it with the wild hope that things will work out somehow in the end. My only advice is to make sure she knows, even if she won't say so know, that she can rely on you when all else fails.

It is much easier when they are little and I hope you all make it through this without permanent damage.

My ex did that with one of our Sons.

He was obsessed with his girlfriends, and insanely jealous if they tried to break up with him or did things that he didn't know about. It was awful. He had one really nice girlfriend that we all liked. Then, he got fixated on a girl a couple of years younger (he has always had a problem where he wasn't able to date girls his own age), and broke up with the nice one and that caused him to embark on a series of bad relationships. He would get so worked up (it must have been hormonal) that he drove them away. Once he thought a girlfriend had bought a bathing suit that was too skimpy and he broke into her house to try and get it from her closet.

Luckily my brother wasn't dangerous and it doesn't sound as if this guy is either. But I think it's clearly the relationship that is the underlying problem - particularly if he doesn't value her education.

Keeping them apart if they're in the same town sounds unworkable. However, if she actually moved AWAY, to live with you, it would probably fizzle out. He would find someone else to obsess over.

It looks as though you pulled her out of something that brought her joy, hope, and the possibility of a future because she skipped a class. Is that really it? She sounds like a normal teenager. Sometimes they skip a class and get too worked up in a relationship. That's what happens at that age. Its not the end of the world. The punishment, one that takes away what she cares about most, doesn't seem to fit the crime. Maybe there's more to it that I'm not understanding but the punishment sounds like a cruel over-reaction.

The one that I found the most helpful came early (#4) from silverlib because it reassured me without being a critique of me as a long distant parent. As in many things we go through in life we often have the feeling like we are the only ones, but I was sure that I could find some good advice here. I am sure that everything will be fine with my daughter, but with kids you often anticipate and fear the worst. I have a good relationship with my daughter and she does talk with me and in a perfect world all parents would be together and with their children and everybody would live happily ever after. However, this is the real world and I have done the best I can even though it short of perfection. I also liked the French Foreign Legion suggestion because if she learned French, maybe she could teach me :)

If not, I think depriving her of them is unwise. There are other ways to punish that won't involve depriving her of something that gives her a sense of self-worth.

When I was in high school, we were blessed with a wonderful band director. He might not have been the greatest musician in the world; but he had a way of turning kids' lives around. Band class was held in the auditorium. At most other times of the day, that was where the class-skippers would hang out, smoke cigarettes and pot, and wallow in their teen angst. They'd clear out when the next class started.

One of the regulars on the skipping scene was a girl named Alicia, whom I knew from junior high school. She'd never participated in a class that I could remember. In fact, I recall many times when she'd just put her head on her desk and ignore the rest of the world. Nobody liked her, and she didn't like them either. When she got to high school, she found out that she could get away with not being in class; so she started identifying with the class skippers.

Mr R. saw her often; and in his unconventional fashion, just started saying hi to her...pretending to ignore the fact that she was skipping. Eventually, he convinced her to play the bass clarinet in the band. He gave her private lessons during part of the time that she'd either be skipping a class or ignoring one. In less than a year, she was able to play with the band. It was the first time I ever saw her smile.

After that, for Alicia, everything revolved around the band. Like all of us, she sold candy bars to raise money. But she went out of her way, because she finally found something she cared about...and it made her care about herself. As the months went on, Alicia came out of her shell more and more, and I got to know her better. She was living with her grandparents, caring people who showed up to every concert. I didn't want to pry; but I got the feeling that she had been abused or seriously neglected at one time. She never spoke of her parents.

I don't know what her grades were like; but she managed to graduate with the rest of the class. She might have graduated anyway, without ever playing in the band; but it would have been because the school officials just gave up on her, as they did a lot of young African Americans in the 1970s.

I have no idea where she is now, or what she does; but I'm certain that her experience with the band has been a positive influence on her life.

Hope this doesn't sound too preachy; but I hope your daughter can continue her lessons. My husband is a guitar teacher; and works with kids who are everything from straight-A students to near delinquents. I know he's helped some kids turn their lives around, too...

Best of luck to you... :hug:

When she was in the regular high school both she and her older brother got kicked out of band for missing classes. She has had private drum lessons for years by a very good teacher. She is in a rock band that has practiced for a year, but because of their age have not really gotten to play anywhere other than a battle of the bands at school. She became interested in the School of Rock because not only would she get drum lessons and vocal lessons, but they also have the kids play together and so she would get the stage time she wanted. The school would also have seminars about music and the music industry and about how to get gigs and it would offer an opportunity to network. Her band would practice every week at her house and her stepfather would record them each week so they could see their progress. I would suspect that her boyfriend would eventually mess up the band because he would have to be at the practices and if they got places to play he would be there also and god forbid if some boy wanted to talk with the pretty girl drummer. My daughter can start to earn her opportunities back by doing what she should have been doing all along--actually attending school classes and doing the best she can and also to work on basic trust issues such as not lying and sneaking around.

Up until this year she was an A and B student. Broken home (my sister has problems), raised mostly by my parents, has a lot of issues, but is very smart and was doing well in school. This year she dropped out, claiming she could finish her degree online (some idiots here on DU said that was a good thing--kick them in the nuts for me if you get the chance). Since her legal guardian is an alcoholic, wasn't much the rest of us could do.

She claimed she had a job, and was paying for a car my parents bought her. One night my parents went to her work to fix something broken on the car. She wasn't there, and didn't work there. She somehow managed to convince my mother that she was there, that the manager was mistaken, but that she had been fired that night. Don't ask, my mother is not normally that naive.

Anyway, turns out she had a boyfriend half a state away, who was paying her money to pay for her car. She's pregnant.

Only advice I have is what I told my parents. Treat her like a kid until she proves she's not. They let her get away with lies, didn't keep track of her... they made it way too easy, even after she proved she was untrustworthy. Now she's made the big mistake, and it's too late to do anything. My parents never took my advice (I live two states away and have my own kids to worry about, so I wasn't in the picture much). I don't know if my advice would have helped if it had been followed, though. Just thought I'd share.

When you say that she lost her opportunity... was that the school or was that you pulling the plug?

Oh, and lest you forget... it is completely normal for a 15-yr-old to think adults are clueless and stupid... it's what makes 15-year-olds clueless and stupid. But it is normal. It is also normal for the 15-year-old to test boundaries.

Sounds normal for a 15 yo to me. Testing her boundaries and being rebellious is a normal part of growing up. If you've provided a good foundation for her, which it sounds like you have, I think you have to trust her and your parenting to give her some space to make a few mistakes. You can't control her at this point. She will make her mistakes and hopefully fall back on her musical passions and the foundation she grew up with. Sometimes as much as it hurts, you have to let go of the reigns & do a lot of praying.

I'm not a parent. I'm only speaking from someone who went through the same growing up. I skipped school, did drugs, got kicked out of the house when I was 15-1/2, and got in more trouble than you'd care to hear about. But, there was some passion in me that wouldn't let me resign to becoming a loser. I managed to get to school and graduated a semester early. It sounds like she has the same passion & basic foundation. Her music IMO, will pull her through and eventually put her back on the right track.

I wish you both lots of luck.

:hug:

and taking private lessons, why was night school added? She was already jumping thru the hoops set up. Was night school added after the original agreement? I wish the best for you and your daughter.

like they are not living up to there potential, and thus the feeling of them flushing the potential down the toilet, but there is not much you can do but hang on. Hang on to your soul. Hopefully your son will not be part of the surge and your daughter will get through school and then become a star. It may not help to remember this, but this is her choice, and not to feel bad that you can't change it. Please do give her a big hug, your son too, and let them know that not all is as you would like it but you do love them...... It sounds crazy hard for you right now. Take care!

is positively schizophrenia-inducing. We are arguably vicitims of our success--puberty arrives earlier and earlier, but fully independent adulthood starts later and later, suspending young people in a maddeningly artificial juvenilized state for 10 years.

Time was, if she looked like a woman, she was a woman, you married her off, and that was that. Not so simple any more. Economically as helpless as children, but with nearly all of the physical, sexual and intellectual potential (if not yet realized) of adults, they are asked to remain in this suspended childlike state for high school and college for a slew of social and economic reasons that they can't control. No wonder they go nuts.

My life improved dramatically when I moved out of my parents' house at 16. No one threw me out. I just took a look at my crappy situation with my parents, realized I could get an apartment and a job and finish high school by taking college classes, and decided to do that. That was in 1979 when it was barely possible to live off minimum wage, which I did. Then I went off the college with 20,000 kids who had grown up in overprotective "loving" homes who had absolutely no idea how to read, write, study, pass a test, fend off an obnoxious date, or otherwise pull their heads from their asses.

1. Fuck the School of Rock.

SoR is a BUSINESS that exists to profit/create profit off of the hopes of young people who wish to enter a specific industry.

Here's a secret your daughter won't learn there: you don't have to be especially talented or especially skilled to make music and be part of a great band, or even to be successful in the music business. The only thing you need to do is get off your ass, get out in front of people, record, and distribute. What's needed is proper feedback and support (financial + emotional).

There are plenty of musical legends who received no or barely any formal training. What separates them from your daughter is ambition and determination; does SoR have classes in that? Does SoR have classes in accounting and entertainment law? She'll need that more than performing lessons.

2. Take the tuition money and get her into a shrink's office, instead. You've stated she believes all adults are liars and has no trouble lying to authority figures. If that's so, she's got some major trust issues that ought to be addressed now, instead of waiting until she's 30 and on the verge of a nervous breakdown.

3. How involved are you and the ex in her education? Parental involvement has often been shown to be the #1 deciding factor in a students' grades. You also may want to consider trying to find a truly alternative school. There's a good chance her school work suffers because of boredom more than anything else.

4. I agree with Ida - your daughter needs more parental involvement, in general. Having parents around allows a child more time to — be a child. A latch-key kid learns independence but guess what? We're humans. Being able to trust and depend on others is a crucial necessity for emotional health. 15 is a little late for that, but it's not too late as long as she's still living at home.

I'm convinced that some kids who are bright but underachieving would benefit from a European-style lycee that really challenged them. Too many students show up in college obviously bright but having been allowed to coast all their lives, and the sheer triviality of much of what passes for American education has convinced them that school is just a bunch of hoops to jump through.