Pack of pit bulls wreaks havoc, biting a man from head to toe

DEERFIELD BEACH · A pack of marauding pit bulls mauled and critically injured a man in front of a store Friday after killing a pet rabbit and guinea pig nearby, leading to an all-day hunt by animal control officials who said they had never seen a wild group of the dogs wreak such mayhem in Broward
But three pit bulls were still on the loose Friday night.

<snip>
"It was like a gang of juveniles out partying and roaming the neighborhood," Ashcroft said. "They were having a good time."

The attacks resumed about two hours later, in the 1200 block of Federal Highway. Wall was walking through the Target parking lot when the pack attacked him, authorities said.

The dogs savaged Wall's entire body, leaving him critically injured, Coleman-Wright said. Deputies arrived in time to shock one dog with a Taser, she said, which caused the pack to flee.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-cpitbulls03mar03,0,3059906.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines

"It was like a gang of Juveniles out partying and roaming the neighborhood" Here in Grand Rapids they closed the bus terminal from 2-4 because our local pit bulls, I mean Juveniles, have been fighting and stabbing daily at the bus terminal.

Not just pit bulls.

That said, I wouldn't own a pit bull - or a variety of other breeds - because they have been bred, by humans, to be agressive. And I'll note, I've never met an agressive pit bull. Everyone I've ever been around has been sweet and loving, but I still have an insurance salesman husband who hears far too many stories about how agressive they can be.

It was only a few months old

She raised it with her two other dogs

When it turned two it attacked one of the others - only provocation was entering its "space" - ie, walking into the room

This happened three times (don't bother criticising the fact that it had a second and third chance; she tried to partition the house, despite much advice to deal with the problem more directly; the inevitable slipups occured)

The third time was fatal

When it later attacked her other dog and almost killed it, she finally had it put down.
It was a loving pet right up until it died. They are bred to be that way.
Otherwise the brutes who use them in fights to the death would not be able to handle them. They typically "turn" at about age two. Some don't, but many do. While not all become aggressive against humans, some do. And the aggression is unlimited. If the switch is flipped to "kill any other four-legged creature you can", then that is what they try to do. But in some, it seems to flip to "kill any other creature but your owner".

They are time bombs, and it is absurd to insist on selecting them as pets.

for years. One day the dog attacked him.

They are bred to do this - the behavior has been genetically cultivated.

At least Grizzy Man didn't make others less safe....

Clearly, folks with actual experience with dogs, have a different opinion. The saddest thing is, most of what folks know about Rotts comes from media hype, or from second/third/fourth hand info. Most "owners" who have a problem Rott, probably shouldn't own a dog, of any breed, period. Fact is, a very few people, cause 99.999% of society's problems, because they're irresponsible knuckleheads, to begin with, whether it's molesting kids, overdosing on drugs, or raising dogs they have no business owning, to begin with.

**************************************

Temperament

http://www.akc.org/breeds/rottweiler/index.cfm

The Rottweiler is basically a calm, confident and courageous dog with a self-assured aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. A Rottweiler is self-confident and responds quietly and with a wait-and-see attitude to influences in his environment. He has an inherent desire to protect home and family, and is an intelligent dog of extreme hardness and adaptability with a strong willingness to work, making him especially suited as a companion, guardian and general all-purpose dog.

The behavior of the Rottweiler in the show ring should be controlled, willing and adaptable, trained to submit to examination of mouth, testicles, etc. An aloof or reserved dog should not be penalized, as this reflects the accepted character of the breed. An aggressive or belligerent attitude towards other dogs should not be faulted.

A judge shall excuse from the ring any shy Rottweiler. A dog shall be judged fundamentally shy if, refusing to stand for examination, it shrinks away from the judge. A dog that in the opinion of the judge menaces or threatens him/her, or exhibits any sign that it may not be safely approached or examined by the judge in the normal manner, shall be excused from the ring. A dog that in the opinion of the judge attacks any person in the ring shall be disqualified.


* * * * *

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/rottweiler.htm

The Rottie is calm, trainable, courageous, and devoted to their owner and family. They have a reliable temperament. Protective, he will defend his family fiercely. These are strong fighters that seem immune to pain. Serious, steady and confident. Firm and careful training is essential for this breed, otherwise you may end up with a very powerful and overly aggressive dog. Yet they can, with proper handling, also be loyal, loving and very rewarding companions. They require owners who can handle their massive size. The Rottie is a natural guard dog with a mellow temperament. They are highly intelligent and have proven their worth beyond question in police, military, and customs work over many centuries. Because of their size, training should begin fairly young - while the dog is still small, and great care should be taken to ensure that the dog is not made vicious. This breed needs a lot of companionship and socialization to be truly happy. They can be aggressive with other dogs and should be kept on leashes in public places. When the Rottweiler is consistently brought up and trained, it will be a good playmate for the children. It will accept cats and other household pets as long as the dog has had a positive experience with them while it was young. Friends and relatives of the family are normally enthusiastically welcomed. Strangers can get no further than the sidewalk. The breed does well in competitive obedience, schutzhund, and tracking.

That they were used as babysitters for kids back in Germany. That was their original use.
Duckie

Rottweil, Germany. They were all around farm dogs--cattle drovers, pulling carts, guard dogs.

we've owned 2 Rotties and both were loving gentle giants. They were raised amoung 4 children and never once showed any aggression. It's all in how they are raised and trained by the owner...PERIOD.

but breeding is essential. If you breed a dog with aggressive tendencies to another dog with aggressive tendencies, you're going to get an aggressive litter and the risk is going to be high no matter how you raise or train them.

Your dogs were good partly because they had good upbringing but even more importantly because they had a breeder who probably cared about temperament when breeding. (Or was very, very lucky)

"bred" to attack people. That's ridiculous.

The breed was developed as herders and then as guards. Only complete flaming assholes breed dogs to attack people--there are some people who do breed and raise dogs to fight, and, as far as I'm concerned, those people should be jailed.

That's what I meant by my insurance husband tells the stories - similar to yours.

I'm just saying that *I* never met an agressive one, but I know for fact they exist. I know they're bred - by humans - to be attack dogs and I would never own one as a result.

I'm sorry your daughter lost a beloved pet, especially in such a horrible manner.

I've raised pit bulls, and pit bull mixes for decades now(have a mix currently). They are no more genetically programmed to be vicious than any other dog. In fact the vast majority of pits are gentle, lovable, intelligent dogs who harm neither humans nor other animals.

I'm sorry that your daughter's pit did this, but please don't take such limited cases and extrapolate to the entire breed. Pits aren't even in the top five of the number of bite cases each year, and the top position belongs to the cocker spaniel, which is, ironically enough, one of the most owned breeds also. Just because I've been bitten by a cocker, should I consider the whole breed vicious? No, I don't.

Much like humans, genetics is at most only half the equation, and certainly the less important half. Nurture and enviroment play a huge part in dog's behavior, and to broad brush dismiss entire breeds due to limited instances is wrong.

The last full pit I had was a sweety. He got along fine with my other dogs and cats, and in fact loved to lick my cats, who loved the attention. My other dog at the time was his best bud, and they were inseperable. Your experience is just that, your experience. It isn't reflective of the breed as a whole.

animals, that is bites per animals of a breed

the fact that the highest numbers are from cockers tells you very little, considering they are the most commonly owned, in fact it might even be predicted. How many bites per 100 or 1000 individuals of a breed would actual, usable information.

you, too, are generalizing from limited experience. Anecdotes really aren't that useful when discussing this.

The people who have been maimed, and the families of those killed, have a different perspective than you.

Rather than counting bites, let's count how many maulings and killings there are, and which breeds commit them.

How about the CDC and insurance underwriters?

In 2000, the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) reported that 25 breeds of dogs were involved in 238 fatal dog bites from 1979-1998. More than 50% of the deaths for which the breed was known were caused by Pit Bull type dogs and Rottweilers.

http://www.dogbitelegalcenter.com/resources/common-dogs.html

I'm not getting involved in any nature vs. nurture argument, because I frankly don't know.

But if you want to own a so-called "dangerous dog," you might want to take a close look at your homeowner's insurance to make sure that you're covered.

I have a 5-year old pit mix, for ANECDOTAL evidence, and I have three dogs total, none of whom are endangered. And neither have I been! If you want to address the "pit bull problem" which I agree there may be in terms of dog aggression, I suggest you drop the hyperbole, educate yourself, and then respond.

mho

I hope whoever is affiliated with those dogs gets locked up. Seriously, it's like leaving a gun exposed to a child. You ARE responsible.

Except that, if a Beagle can get you down on the ground, there's really no difference if there's a pack of them. The smallest of dogs STILL has the strongest of jaws.

They can "lock down"



and have jaw muscles the size of a fist

You want to know what the problem with pit bulls is?

Two things:

1. They're treated as a commodity. People breed them for money, frequently in neglectful conditions, often breeding animals with health or temprament issues just because they know they can get a couple hundred bucks for a pittie pup. Any breed where this happens will have unstable dogs. The various breeds that get identified as pit bulls just happen to be very popular.

2. They're very needy dogs. Unfortunately, many of the people who are attracted to them either don't understand this or don't give a shit. It's particularly problematic to keep them chained, as chained dogs of any breed are much more likely to attack.

So both problems aren't really problems with the dogs themselves, who are hardly the largest dogs out there, the most aggressive or the most potentially dangerous to humans by a long shot. They aren't the most likely dogs to bite or the most dangerous when they do. The problem (to the extent that there is one, and the statistics don't really show that there is) is a people problem.

The whole thing is media puffery tinged with racism. (You know who likes pitties, right? Those people. Be afraid.) Then sad thing is that a lot of dogs are killed at shelters needlessly as a result, either because people are afraid to adopt pitties because of this kind of nonsente, or because shelter management has bought into it and won't adopt out any pitties no matter what their history or temperament.

They have a muscle the size of small fist in the back of their jaw.

I have seen them jump and hang from a suspended tire for up to 10 minutes.
I see the ones that have lost a fight or were not "wanted" by their owners dumped
by the freeway all the time. When I see that I feel terrible for the animals and
anger @ the scum who owned them.

I used to think it was nurture over nature and if you raised them right you wouldn't
have any problems but I now strongly believe that if you take a pit bull in to your
home you are running @ least a 1 in 10 chance of of something going "really bad."

Race has nothing to do with my thoughts too. In central Ohio plenty of "dog fighting"
is done by white red necks.

Does that really mean anything? No, not really. And just for your information(and yes, I've also had many pits and pit mixes, I've also worked as a vetrinarian's assistant and know dog anatomy really, really well), the "locking jaws" is indeed a myth. The reason that you see pits hanging from tires is two fold. First, the jaw muscle size in proportion to the dogs weight, and secondly, the dog has probably built up those jaw muscles through repitition of this activity, much like exercise builds up any muscle. Any of your small/mid sized dogs with similar jaw structure can, and do, perform the same sort of trick. I've a friend with a boston terrier who can, and does, dangle from a rope for long periods of time. Similar jawsize to weight ratio as a bit, similar jaw muscle structure:shrug:

And just for your information, the majority of pits are loving, caring pets who don't harm a fly. In fact the AKC, up until public hysteria forced them to back off a few years ago, had recommended pits as the best family/children's dog for decades.

Nurture in this case is what is driving these dogs to be vicious. Subject any dog to the same sort of enviroment and they too would be vicious.

I propose we ban people immediately.

Compatible germs and what not.

It's amazing the hysteria, backed by little scientific fact, that pitbulls raise. When I was a kid back in the sixties, it was German Shepards that were the bad dogs, and I was raised with two sweeties. In the seventies it was Dobermans, and now it is Pits and Rotties. Sure, there is a number of idiots who like vicious dogs and raise vicious dogs. But the pit just happens to be the bad dog du jour. When the fad changes, then pits will be left alone. I actually hear that some African dog breed is the next rising bad dog star. I'll be happy, cause the hysteria about pits is entirely overblown.

Always good to hear from sane people like yourself:hi:

Pitties are terriers. As such, they're bred to be intensely loyal to people, and to be aggressive toward rats and other small animals. While there are individuals who are okay with cats, for example, they're really best to keep with another dog of similar size or as the only animal in the family.

They're very attention hungry. They don't normally bark, they whine. They're like babies, they need people to grow up emotionally healthy.

That doesn't make them bad dogs at all, it just means that if you can't give a dog a lot of your time and attention, then you need to get a lower maintainance dog, or better yet a cat. Any breed of dog will cause problems if you don't plan around their particular needs as a breed.

Oh, and as with any dog, it's vitally important that you establish from the beginning that you're in charge and that they're subordinate to you and to other people. Once you do that, make friends, but you have to make that power dynamic clear first thing, because dogs are canids and they need pack structure to be properly socialized.

He thought they were tasty kittysicles, and lick for all the time, while the cats just purred and purred. I've never had any problems concerning my pits and other animals big or small.

But you are correct about proper socialization. Whenever I get a new dog, one of the first things I do is wrestle it flat on the ground, place my open mouth on their neck and growl deeply. Dog talk for saying I'm the alpha pup. They get the message.

I've seen him carry small kittens in his mouth by the scruff like a mama cat. When kittens would escape from where mama kitty was raising them, he'd grab them up and carry them back to their mother, and of course two more would make a run for it in the mean time, but he'd just patiently go get them too. He was raised with them, so I guess that's why. Of course, nobody'd ever expect that from a creature that's almost entirely wolf, but gentle socialization does some pretty amazing things.

He did eat my best friend's pet turtle though. :(

And you are right, they do need to be well socialized.

They are also very high energy dogs who need a safe physical outlet. I've been told they do well in agility training.

They do have a tendency, (TENDENCY, not some genetic defect) to be dog-aggessive, but their overwhelming trait is to be OBEDIENT to their human. Even for pit-trained pits, this is crucial, because fighting dogs can't turn on their owners. It's NOT NATURAL for pits to be aggressive to humans.

What I have found to be "natural" among pits: Goofy, clumsy, very smart, and very obedience-oriented. They really want to make people happy. They have a sense of humor that is almost human. They don't want to hurt anyone, but are actually a little insecure (and in my dog's case--are actually a little afraid of other dogs). My pit mix just made friends with the neighbor's min pin puppy. He was very intimidated by this itty-bitty dog at first!

and the stakes are higher with the large powerful breeds. I agree with you when you say that the focus should not be on the breed. But we probably differ on where we think the problem comes from.

Many people refuse to accept that dogs are not just human beings with fur costumes on. They react in the moment -- they are dogs -- things can trigger their herding instinct, prey drive and their instinctual urge to help (which would mean doing things like picking up baby by the back of the neck like they would a pup). This urge to see dogs as humans extends to wanting to see them as saints and criminals when they are simply doing what dogs do.

(not exclusively, mind you), having run a couple hundred through my home, and having several here right now, by your statistics I should have had a major incident. Thankfully, I haven't. We also haven't had an adopted animal have an incident.

I'm not really trying to change your mind, rather offer up a "nurture over nature" example.

Also:
Dr. I. Lerh Brisbin of the University of Georgia states, "To the best of our knowledge, there are no published scientific studies that would allow any meaningful comparison to be made of the biting power of various breeds of dogs. There are, moreover, compelling technical reasons why such data describing biting power in terms of ‘pounds per square inch’ can never be collected in a meaningful way. All figures describing biting power in such terms can be traced to either unfounded rumor or, in some cases, to newspaper articles with no foundation in factual data."

The vet estimated his age at around 1 Year old when we rescued him. We've had him for a year and a half. He needed some rehab due to surviving on the streets and eating garbage, but he has adapted quite well. Then he turned on us - he turned FAT! He is aggressive towards other dogs, but he's the only dog in our household. We have a secure fenced in backyard for him to play. And he never leaves the house without a leash or a harness. He is not human aggressive in the slightest. Unless you count his willingness to lick you to death. So, we'll see if he suddenly becomes the monster everyone is so terrified of. If he does, I'll put him down. If not, we have a wonderful sweet (mostly) obedient dog that has more personality than some people.

they have these inherent tendencies - any argument otherwise is just silly. Possibly those traits could be in the process of being bred out again by some breeders but I rather doubt it.

On the other hand I have had two dogs that could hang or be slung around by their bites. A lab/german short hair and a queensland heeler.

you would know that their so-called "locking jaws" really have to do with their tenacity and desire to please their owners. Yes, they have an innate desire to lock on and to focus...but this is reinforced by praise, which is their primary motivation, from my experience. They can be similarly motivated to "focus" on guarding the door, or something as simple as "watching my socks" when I get home and picking up the laundry when it's time to do the wash. My pit mix wants to do what I want him to so I make sure he has harmless pursuits, and he takes them quite seriously, and I reward him for helping keep the house clean!

prevailing one for pits and pit mixes in this part of the country. Add to that fact that most of those that I see around my neighborhood are kept chained most of the time. They are bred and owned by people who want them because of their aggressive behavior and do not take the time to socialize or train them correctly. Many of them are even trained to be aggressive toward humans. These are the dogs that have given the breed a bad name and these are the dogs that dominate the breed right now.

I have known some pits and pit mixes that were fine dogs, but I have come in contact with enough of the undesirable ones to tell you that there is no way I could ever trust one enough to own one.

JMHO.

because the stats show that any dog regularly kept on a chain is three times more likely to bite, and of course is suffering itself.

Prolonged chaining and other fixed point tethering of dogs became illegal here in California effective January 1st.

:sarcasm:

edited to add: This thread is a prime examle of how pig-ignorant people can be when it comes to dogs.

that's for sure, and then proceed to lick you to death.

:)

They can have nasty breath, which makes the whole licking-you-to-death thing most unpleasant. BTDT. :)

One attacked my GSD twice.

Vegan kibble is in danger when she's around, and mint-flavored chew ropes. But anything that can move on its own is perfectly safe. This has been true of many beagles I've known.

There's crappy examples of every breed.

(may she rest in peace, sweet Belle).

One day I came back to the house and had forgotten my key. I proceeded to pry open a window and started to crawl in. I could hear this very serious growling and a low bark. I kept saying, "hey Belle, it's just Mama", but the growling continued. Finally I got inside the damn window and looked for the silly dog...found her in my closet, under my coat, growling still but hiding all the while.

Beagles are sweet and brave in their own way, but they will never be banned by any nation.

which wasn't closed tight. She had been watching a cat out the window, and decided to go running after it. She went out the door, off leash, with me behind scared she'd get into the street and get hit. She got to the bottom of our porch steps stopped, looked around, ran back up on the steps and hid behind me, quivering. What had scared her? A squirrel running up the sidewalk at her!!

Right now I have a couple of 70 pound mutts...but one day I hope to get another beagle...they are fantastic. I will never forget little Belle growling away all the time hiding in the closet.

when I gave up and handed her the stuffed kitty-cat.

I had I friend who had a pit bull ... it was a baby and used to
hop up and sleep on my lap. One day "baby" got out and killed
2 dogs.

it's part of what makes them a pain in the ass. I used to live in sheep/dairy country and if your dog ran loose they would shoot it on sight. After seeing first hand what happens to a flock that has been run by a dog pack I support the policy.

I love dogs but dogs are animals; not people.

you are absolutely correct. Growing up on a farm, I know what wild dogs (or formerly domesticated dogs who have gone feral) can do. Has nothing (NOTHING!) to do with breed.

And if you want to learn about pits I suggest you expand your horizons beyond your insurance adjustor. :eyes:

guns with legs.

ripped open...by a poodle. Any dog, improperly trained, can be called the same thing.

is just as likely to terrorize a neighborhood if let loose on their own. Now if only I could find the link to the fatal dachshund attack.
:sarcasm:

Serious note: I have been bitten by two dogs, a beagle and a pit-rotwieler mix. The beagle snapped at me and ran away, the pit attacked me at night from behind a bush repeatedly until I beat it away with the help of my queensland heeler.

I will never believe that all pits shouldn't be sterilized. The dog that attacked me had previously attacked 4 other people in the neighborhood savaging an old man who was on his daily walk. I won't tell you how we got rid of the dog but law enforcement was no help at all.

I have known people with every breed of dog plus timber wolves, coyotes and pure dingoes. I would trust a purebred wolf before I would trust the most tame seeming pit.

But hey, everybody has that right, no matter how little of it is based on factual evidence:shrug:

From 2000, PDF format and you have to scroll down pretty far to find it.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

"Indeed, since 1975, dogs belonging to more than 30 breeds have been responsible for fatal attacks on people, including Dachshunds, a Yorkshire Terrier, and a Labrador Retriever."

#1 in fatal attacks: Rotties #2 Pit Bulls

:rofl:

Pit bulls have been responsible for a HUGE number of fatalities.

9 breeds/types have been responsible for 230 attacks ending in a fatality for the person. 22 other breeds/types have been responsible for 54 attacks. Virtually all of the breeds listed are big dogs.

Of the 9 breeds and 230 attacks, pit bull types have been responsible for 33% of the attacks, and rottweilers have been responsible for 19% of the attacks. German shepherds and huskies have been responsible for 12% and 9% of these attacks, respectively. Malamutes, wolves, mutts, chows, and dobermans round out the remaining 27% about equally. Most of these dogs have been bred as guard dogs, and guard they do. If they didn't instinctively guard without intensive training, people wouldn't keep them for that purpose.

Whoever wrote the article is using different math than I am, because they state explicitly that pit bulls and rottweilers together are responsible for 67% of dog bite related fatalities.

People get dogs of particular breeds because you know what you're getting. Most people here who are describing the positive qualities of the pit bull are using the same words. People wouldn't own and breed pit bulls for dog fighting if the dogs weren't willing to fight and naturally good at it. Dogs that aren't willing to fight and aren't naturally good at it wouldn't last through their first fights. My deep and abiding suspicion is that once these breeds get angry, they just don't back down, while most dogs, even if they nip a person, will back off quickly.

I got bit in the tookus by a cattle dog, and that dog KNEW it was out of line. It would be nice to have three numbers: the number of dogs owned by breed, the number of dog bites by breed, and the number of fatalities by breed. Only then can we really pick through the numbers.

In closing, cockers may be responsible for a lot of bites, but the cocker spaniel has only killed one person.

The problem with pit bulls is that they are huge. No matter how hard my yorkies ever decided to bite (not that they do), they have tiny mouths and bodies. Someone could handle a pack of yorkies by squishing them. Dachshunds are bigger and tougher, but they are also small.

I don't know that pit bulls are inherently more unstable or aggressive than other dogs, but their size and overbreeding makes them dangerous. Labs are generally calm and intelligent. I'd say that the pits that I've known (mostly all good) have been single-minded and needy.

I blame breeders, even more so than owners. These dogs need to be bred less and more deliberately to curb size and encourage calmness. It's not that they're any worse than a yorkie or a pomeranian (hyper, hyper dogs), but only that their size makes it more important for them to be controlled.

Of course, most people can't identify a real pit bull from any other number of "bully" type breeds.

And decently sized dog has the potential to be dangerous. Hell, I know someone who needed plastic surgery after a lhasa apso attack and those things are small.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

she's have several cases involving pit bulls and other similar type dogs and she has stated that they are bred to hurt and kill, and has NO sympathy for the owners who let them get loose.

I'm smart enough to not buy into the mass hysteria of the pit bull as "bred to hurt and kill."

She does NO service to society mouthing off on something she knows nothing about on tv.

Judge Judy doesn't know what she is talking about. A lot of well informed people feel that way about pits. I haven't a clue what Judge Judy does or doesn't know.

The root of the problem is with irresponsible PEOPLE. The breed is the scapegoat.

other breed. If you've had a bad experience with a certain breed, you tend to shy away from that breed. Perhaps she hears too many stories about pits. I think any person would feel somewhat similar if they heard the same story over and over. She is basing her opinions on her experience. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. You can have facts all day long, but if your experience is always a bad one, you are going to base your opinion on that I think. I am sure she goes for the dogs owners as well.

Whether it's politics or dogs.

I don't understand why you're okay with it.

I said we don't know what she does or doesn't know about the subject. You can assume that she doesn't use facts to back up her opinions, but I am guessing that as a judge, she is smarter than that.

And you're making quite a big assumption that a television judge is smarter than that. Quite a big assumption.

stuff that other judges do. And from what I have seen of her, she is a decent judge

You believe whatever you like. You are obviously the authority on this issue. Anyone who has a different opinion is just ignorant and doesn't know anything about pits.

And yes, I would say that I'm more of an authority on them than Judge Judy, as is LeftyMom and flvegan and a few other people around here.

Being a veggie doesn't mean you know more about animals. How do you know what Judge Judy knows?

LeftyMom and flvegan are both extremely knowledgeable about the breed. Their veganism has nothing to do with that.

Why the would you think I was talking about that?

And I'm making an educated guess about what Judge Judy knows based on her fearmongering, broadbrush statements about the breed. It's not representative as the breed as a whole. No more than basing your opinion on the breed from this article and pushing it as fact.

that could support both sides. I haven't based any opinion I have on this article. I do have more knowledge than that. I personally think that they get a bad rep and that people breed some of them for the meanness. But I will not tell someone how they should feel about the breed. Especially if they have had a bad experience. I don't think that is fair. I love all breeds and mix breeds of dogs.

It contributes to the bad rep that the breed has.

I don't know why you're refusing to see that point.

And she has that right to feel that way. She may think it as irresponsible not to say that.

I am not refusing to see any point. I just don't agree with the point.

TV personalities have a responsibility not to participate in it.

I'm not saying she doesn't have a right to feel the way she feels, I'm just saying that I believe it is irresponsible to participate in fearmongering of the public.

I don't know why ANYBODY would disagree with that.

You do, and that is fine. This is really going nowhere. Let's just agree to disagree. And know that we both love and want to do what is best for animals.

pit bulls are, by far, responsible for more human deaths than any other breed. That's not a "feeling" - it's a fact.

"what you should know about school cafeterias and how they can kill your children. the full story at 9"

sensationalism creates ratings, higher ratings bring more advertising revenue.

that doesn't mean that what any teevee personality may or may not have grains of truth in what they say.

you will never change it.

there isn't anything you can do about it except sit there and be angry.

you could potentially be a voice of reason to dispel useless notions. that's always a possibility.

sensationalism in the media is as old as the sun.

still needs a person to pull the trigger.

Guess someone noticed, eh?

My best friend has three canids. Two dogs, a rescued pittie and an australian cattle dog somebody's abandoned, and a wolf hybrid. She's had a lot of pitties over the years, every one taken in because of a bad situation. She's not only not lacking anything, she's a practically a canidate for sainthood for helping so many dogs in need out of the kindness of her heart, and she has a real gift for socializing previously mistreated dogs.

Oh, and my fella, who does dog rescue has (iirc) 8 pitties in his care at the moment. Not so much because he likes them, though he does, but because they're the dogs with the greatest need. I'd point out that he's got a small car and none of the inadequacies you seem to be so fixated on, but since he's a DUer, I'm sure he'll be along to tell you that your factoid's freakin' retarded himself shortly. (Nevermind, he beat me to it. I should type faster.)

PS Statistically, the most of the breeds of dogs most likely to bite are small dogs. Those bites tend to be especially problematic because the victims are often children and the targeted area is often the head or face. So the next time you see somebody with a small, high strung dog, make sure to let them know that they're a menace for endangering children so. :eyes:

Up until they caved from the hyterical anti pit crowd a few years back, they highly recommended pits as the perfect dog for family and children. I would say that the AKC knows a hell of a lot more than you and the other hysterical anti pit people do. You've let the sensationalized media reports shape your thinking. I'm sure you don't let that happen with political matters, why do you let that happen with other societal matters?

They represent professional breeders who over the years have inbred most breeds so badly that many dogs suffer from genetic defects and breed specific characteristics that cause harm to the animal.

But breeders of prestige and show dogs are for the most part disinterested in pibbles, it's a social class thing. Most pibbles are bred by backyard breeders and small unlicensed operations run by people who can't be bothered to get a county dog license, let alone AKC papers, for their puppy-making money machines.

I have mixed feelings about pits, early socialization (before 3-4 months) is definitely key but there are just so many dog owners I have come in contact with that don't understand how to "raise" a dog. To compound that you have vets that tell new puppy owners to keep their puppies away from other dogs for up to the first 6 months due to susceptibility to disease.

I don't disagree with that at all.

As for socialization of young puppies, I'd suggest the same thing I would with young kids: planned playdates with healthy selected friends over a span of ages, and trips to the park and such to play with a more random group only when they're a bit older, sturdier and somewhat aware of behavior expectations.

AKC registered puppies? Most of 'em. The AKC's job is to breed dogs, and lots of 'em.

dissuade her from rescuing the pit. She loved the pit. Her other two dogs were also rescue dogs. The one that was killed was 12 years old; she'd had her since rescuing her as a pup too young to have been removed from mother. She is very active in pet rescue in her community. She insisted that her pit was NOT going to be a problem, that all the scare stories were bs. After the first attack, she did do some reading, and came up with the stories about some percent of pits "turning" at about age two. Those that don't "turn" may well be adoring pets forever.

Given that dogs have been bred into all sorts of strange shapes and sizes, and to have genetic dispositions to do things like kill rats and herd sheep, it is pretty disingenuous to claim that many, many years of selective breeding to win in "the pit" by killing other dogs has not had any affect on the breed. Why the hell does a sheltie try to "herd" you out the door?

As I said, they have not been intentionally bred to be human-aggressive. Incidents where they are are anomalies NOT bred in, and are likely due either to mistreatment, lack of disciplined upbringing, or combination thereof. Any animal can become antisocial - that is, behave in ways that are not consistent with its nature. A pet rattlesnake won't bite you as long as you don't threaten it. But what constitutes a threat?

What got into these dogs heads to motivate them to misapply their instinctive killing behaviors? Dunno, but that cocker, which might be far more likely to snap at you, is less likely to kill you.

If it weren't for the registration fees they receive from puppy millers, we'd be able to put the puppy mills out of business. Remove the registrations, the pups aren't worth producing.

And why would the AKC say anything about a breed they don't even recognize?

as pit bulls.

APBT...the american pit bull terrier. Which are the ones that cause the most trouble.

The CDC classifies all pit bull-type dogs and their mixes together.

A properly raised APBT is not going to be different in temperment than a properly raised AmStaff.

The APBT is the one that has mostly been bred for fighting by the assholes of the universe.

I don't discount the raising and training, but I also know that breeding is an important issue and one that is not attended to unless the trait wanted is meanness. Puppies that don't show the necessary aggressiveness are used as bait dogs and the winners in the ring are the ones that get to breed.

Do you really think we wanted to put down the 52 dogs...all APBT's...from the dog fighting ring? It would have been nice to be able to rehome them but they weren't safe and if they'd been allowed to breed, a good portion of their offspring would never have been safe.

Hell, we're still trying to breed out the temperament problems caused by one (ONE) breeder 30 years ago in Bouviers. The guy wanted to breed for aggressive dogs. He got his wish. He finally quit breeding and decent breeders are still trying to make sure that they don't cross dogs with too many of his breeding in their lines. We can count on finding a lot of them whenever we encounter a Bouv with aggressive tendencies.

Breeding counts.

or ever did.

Which are often referred to as "pit bulls."

People have bred the dogs to fight. They beat them up then turn them out if they lose and they wind up in shelters. 20% of the dogs in shelters are pitts and pitt mixes. It is not the dogs' fault and those animals that have been down this path need more than most potential owners can give them. It is not fair to blame the breed because recent breeding and the early life of each individual dog is a better predictor of behavior.

The ASPCA says:

As the "sport" of dog fighting developed, enthusiasts bred a lighter, more athletic canine. These dogs made their way to North America, the ancestors of today's pit bulls. The problems started when these dogs gained the attention of people looking for a macho dog-and to meet their demands, unscrupulous and uncaring breeders are producing puppies that are not only aggressive to other dogs, but to people, too.
...
In March 2000, the ASPCA asked representative U.S. shelters about their experiences with pit bulls. Thirty-five percent take in at least one pit bull a day, and in one out of four shelters, pits and pit mixes make up more than 20 percent of the shelter dog population. New York, Chicago, Boston, Phoenix and Honolulu each saw 3,000 to 7,500 pits turned in during the previous year. One shelter staffer recounted hundreds of abuse cases that came through their doors-pit bulls who had been burned, beaten, and fought with.


- Aggression to other dogs is a serious issue with this breed. Early socialization is essential for pit puppies, though your best efforts may not override a dog's genetics. Regardless of early experience, some pits will become dog-aggressive when they reach maturity. A pit bull who doesn't like other dogs cannot be let loose in dog runs or other public places. Some are also dangerous around cats, so please choose carefully if you have other pets.

- Due to their strength and exuberance, pit bulls are best placed with families with older children.

http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=cruelty_pitbull

scared still from an incident the other day. While running through my favorite dirt road area I saw a pit, alone. I stopped runnning immediately. He stared at me and I tried to see if an owner was anyway around (he had a collar) It was obvious from the way he was staring that he was going to come at me and I had the most horrible feeling that my life was about to change in a terrible way. Then he charged...straight at me. All I could think was to protect my neck and not fall down. I threw up my arm just as he jumped toward my face (I am a small woman (5'2). I managed to knock him to the side. My arm was covered in saliva, but either he thought better of biting or just was put off by my arm and by the fact that I was shouting NO! as loudly and in the deepest voice I could muster. He immediately came at me again. I managed to kick out at him, still shouting. At this point, I saw his owner running toward us in the distance calling him. He came at me one more time and then looked toward his owner. I shouted how stupid it was to have a pit off leash when out of sight. The owner was still some distance away but the dog was now standing still. I retreated and went the other way. I have since seen the dog with its owner and intend to tell her what I think of letting the dog loose.

Perhaps the dog was just having a game with me. But I have never been so terrified as when that pit charged. As a runner of over 20 years, I have had many dog experiences. A pit is not the same as being charged by a beagle, a pekinese, or even a labrador.

Now I am afraid to go back over there. I walk my own dogs over there (large friendly mutts). What if one of them had been with me? No doubt he would have attacked them. I will never forget the way he loooked at me and then charged.

He was small for a pit and had he been larger, I think he would have knocked me down on the initial charge.

morning walks by the beach. It would be different if they were off leash AND walking with their owners but that's very rarely the case. Most of them aren't even under voice control. I hate not being able to walk my puppy without constantly worrying about someone else's out of control animal.
:mad:

/oops

. . . .


i know what you are talking about. i had that happen just once ten years ago when i was a runner. there was nothing sweet or sensitive about that encounter with a pit bull.

Neither are good for the welfare of people. :scared:

I would LOVE to know.

Are just as gullible as the fools who believed in Fox's claims about WMDs.

Just two questions, who are the top two dogs for biting humans?

Which breed was highly recommended by the American Kennel Club as being the ideal family/children's pet for over sixty years?

The vast majority of pits, like any other dog breed, are not vicious. They are loving, caring, intelligent wonderful animals. You don't let the media shape your political opinions, why are you letting it shape other opinions?

because the frequency of some breeds is vastly different from other breeds.

And while any dog can bite under the right circumstances, how many horribly maul? I got bitten by a little beagle mix once, but he nipped me, then immediately cowered and rolled on his back.

No, the question is which breeds maim and kill the most?

And it's not ALL in the rearing of the dog. Many of these attacks are committed by dogs who had been loving family dogs. There's a certain tenacity that is bred into some of these breeds that makes them very dangerous WHEN THEY GET SET OFF.

To some degree, I'm on the side of the nurture over nature argument, but you have to account for the fact that pit bulls, like certain other breeds of dog (example: Presa Canarios, mastiffs-although they're very mellow nowadays-, etc...), were initially bred for use fighting other animals. It's not that hard for the really screwed up ones to make the switch to people.

And there's the fact that any big dog is more likely to do damage, just because its size and weight can put it on par with a human. That goes for smaller dogs and children as well.

Selectively breeding the mellow pits and spaying/neutering the ones who display too many aggressive tendencies might be good for the breed.

Than owners of other breeds, I mean. I won't argue that they're more violent or aggressive by nature, but they're sure as hell more -dangerous- if they come to be aggressive or violent. Any dog can be sweet in the right environment in my view, but in the wrong environment I think some dogs can turn out to be very dangerous.

Any large dog can do massive amounts of damage if they are triggered by whatever. Pits are very muscular and low to the ground, I guess that gives them more power. But many dogs attack. Not just pits. We definitely hear more of that though.

But also because a pit is capable of doing lots of damage if it turns out to be violent.

in those awful fighting competitions.

This is the Caucasian Ovcharka.



Dog fighting in Russia is practically family entertainment. The Caucasian is 100-160 pounds. When taught to be ferocious, they make the pit bull, the Dogo, the presa and the cane corso all look like kittens.

that's a handsome dog! Never seen it before.

It is a pretty dog!

my first thought was that if this dog ever caught on, we'd see a LOT of shepherd/chow mixes at shelters put down because the breed was mistaken.

That was, of course before reading the whole entry and seeing that these were dogs that most often top 125 pounds. Does look like a big ole chow mix, though, huh? Right down to the tongue.

It does look like a shepherd/chow/akita mix. Gorgeous. Poor things don't stand a chance I guess!

From dogbreedinfo:

"The Caucasian Ovtcharka's original purpose was to protect livestock. The typical Caucasian Ovtcharka is assertive, strong-willed, and courageous. Unless properly socialized and trained, the Caucasian Ovtcharka may exhibit ferocious and unmanageable tendencies. It is very brave, alert, strong and hardy. It distrusts people it does not know and it has a powerful urge to defend. Everything and everyone who belongs to the family, including children, cats, other dogs, etc, will be regarded by this dog as part of "its" family and will be respected and protected. This dog should not be left alone with children, because if play becomes too rough, the Caucasian Ovtcharka my feel the need to protect your child, and may do it extensively. It has no time for strangers, but it will greet family friends warmly. It can be rather dominate towards other dogs it does not know. Some German fanciers employ the dogs as foremost guardians and deterrents. This is not a dog for everyone. It requires an owner who knows how to display strong leadership and who is willing to spend a lot of time socializing and training."

In Russia this breed (and their ilk) are called "volkodavs" (wolf killers).

But that dog in the wrong hands (which is most likely where it would go, people want bad-ass dogs :eyes:), could be a terrible thing. The dog is only doing what it instinctually knows to do.

Well, the instinct is to be protective and obedient, but that will get bastardized in the wrong hands.

some sort of danger. Even then, some try to avoid it.

(I can't remember what I was watching), But it showed noe pulling a large man half way into the street to go after a car. If these ever "get big" here, the problems with pit breeders are going to look small.

according to ol' randy down by the parts store.

but i've never met a pittie who wasn't as sweet as the day is long.

any dog, any dog will bite -- and just about any sizeble dog can do severe damage -- that's no reason to smear -- yes smear a dog breed -- or dogs in general.

they are responsible, by far, for the greatest number of human fatalities caused by dogs.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

introducing facts (not anecdote/hyperbole/bombast/chest thumping self promotion) from reputable sources like the Centers for Disease Control.

how am i supposed to feel all warm and fuzzy about vicious dog breeds now?

and any dog will still bite.

and yes, any dog will bite. But a pit bull is far more likely to kill you when he does attack.

Just a statistic.

that's mighty big of ya -- and -- yep -- i still love 'em.

to expressions like that. You well-know that I wasn't granting permission.

But do you have anything to say about the fact that pitbulls kill far more people than any other breed of dog? It DOES seem to be relevant to the discussion.

it was another dog.

treat dogs well -- keep them responsibly -- give them loving homes -- and 99% of the time there will never be any problem.

but life isn't problem free -- it's the deal we all make to be alive.

and if we want to live with animals -- we have to take the good with the bad.

as the other posters have pointed out -- much of the popularity of pit bulls is based on a certain rep -- if -- these people would make a problem dog out of any dog they owned.


and if you don't want me to be offended by the things you say -- then don't be so snarky and arrogant.

I was just pointing out a fact that had gone unnoticed in this thread - that pit bulls are responsible for far more human deaths than any other breed.

Surely you know I wasn't deigning to give you permission to like what you want - it's just a expression.


Of course we have to take the good with the bad - but we also have to responsible. We don't let people keep tigers, for good reason. Yet I can still live with animals.

yes, of course there are many bad pitbull owners. There are also GOOD pitbull owners whose dogs attack and kill, and they do with a greater frequency than any other breed.

i've not known you to be an ignorant poster -- you seem to choose wisely enogh.

forgive my skepticism.

chirp chirp chirp

bombast can never trump fact.

chirp chirp chirp

chirp chirp chirp

Hands.Down.

:thumbsup:

got any? ;)

:popcorn:

Have at it! :P

:popcorn:

:hi:

:popcorn:

Not again!?

Treated well, pitbulls are capable of being as sweet, loving and loyal as any other dog breed. It's not the breed- it's the conditions.

it's not just the conditions. A terrier will chase rats whether you teach him to do so or not. An Aussie shepherd will try to herd you, your family, your cats, whether you teach him to do so or not. A portuguese water dog will take to swimming, whether you teach him or not.

Some behaviors are bred into the breed. Why should it be surprising that breeds that were cultivated to fight and/or protect tend to be more likely to attack?

From my own personal experience, I've found them to be good dogs when cared for properly, but it's not the kind of dog I would want because of its history. There's still that fighting instinct, whether it comes out or not. But I wonder if the same traits can also be bred out, as in the case of English Bulldogs. I'm not an expert on breeding, so I wouldn't know.

Our obedience instructor just has to accept the fact that my beagle will do a return slowly, with her nose to the ground, and is likely to be distracted by some smell. It's what she's bred to do, and you can't train it out of her. All dogs were bred to do a task. Pits were bred to fight other dogs to the death. Unpleasant but true.

Several countries have banned the breed, including France. Winnipeg in Canada has a ban and I think Ontario does too...

They simply turn to another breed that has the potential to be dangerous.

automatic weapons, because people will just turn to knives.

it's an analogy.

If outlawing something dangerous doesn't work in one case, then why should it be different in another case?

Jurisdictions have the right to outlaw those things it finds dangerous. It's why I can't keep a tiger in my home, or a nuclear weapon in my attic.

Personally, I don't know how I'd feel if my town tried to enact a pitbull ban, but I wouldn't oppose it based on supposed lack of efficacy. Not everybody who wanted a pitbull would automatically get a presa canario. Some might get a golden retriever, and we'd be that much better off.

I'm not commenting on the efficacy, just that there are such bans. Apparently, the last pit died in Manitoba some time ago...and they've not banned any other breeds that I'm aware of.

Just so sad that people just do not research the breeds they adopt (as LeftyMom pointed out). Dogs of all breeds suffer from human ignorance. For me, I'm happy with my two rescued mutts.

and we're dealing with it every day.

because of the new standards in the Dangerous Dog Liability Act.

People who don't understand the ramifications of the Act.
People who decide that there's no point in looking after the Pittie anymore, so why bother.

We have no legal option except euthanasia.

That said, I was treed on my truck about 2 weeks ago by the biggest meanest pit bull I've ever seen.

Thank FSM I deal mostly with livestock.

People get them for the same reason.


http://www.gocomics.com/tomthedancingbug/2006/09/16/

She must be compensating! Thank you Dr Freud, it's all clear to me now!

:eyes:

See, it all fits. So to speak. :silly:

Sad comic, there... but it won't stop me from :rofl:

right?

Or, wait...were you using a comic strip to prove a point?

I should wait for a response before I go further.

I promptly forgot about it but it must have festered with you. What I really don't understand is that last time you made some accusations about me that I ignored because I knew that they weren't true. I made a broad accusation that you seem unable to ignore. Why is that? Is it because deep down you suspect it may be true? You know as well as I do that a pit bull is a time bomb waiting to go off and that any "pittie" owner who doesn't treat it that way is irresponsible. The dog was bred to fight! No amount of human attention is going to take away a bird dogs interest in birds. Likewise no amount of human attention is going to take away a "pittie's" interest in fighting. The breed is a danger to all life that comes into contact with it. A responsible owner will acknowledge that and take proactive steps to prevent that from happening. Now I count three of you, at least, in this thread who are claiming that their "pittie" wouldn't do that. That, my friend, is irresponsible pit bull ownership. There are two kinds of "pitties". Those that have attacked and those that will attack. Be responsible and admit that, then be ever vigilant to prevent that. Another thing, if you don't want to be painted by a broad brush than stop associating yourself with a magnet for such brush strokes. I mean I am sure that George W. Bush is nice to his mother but that fact doesn't make me want to be a republican. The small amount of goodness that may be in a repub doesn't counter the overwhelming evil that is within that draws them to the party to begin with. You are known by the company you keep. Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas. One last thing: no, I don't know what "they" say about people who draw opinions from comics. Perhaps you will be good enough to enlighten me. I do know that comics have a long history of reflecting public opinion and events as they truly are. That goes all the way back to Thomas Nast. Here is a link for you so reading this won't be a total waste of your time. I'm sure I have done nothing to change your mind so at least you will have learned something about a famous cartoonist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Nast

:yoiks:

That's really got to hurt. Now imagine all those rabies shots he's going to have to take... :cry: I hope they test the dogs for rabies too...

Ashcroft has a point as well, but I'll save that for another thread. I know men are dogs, but I usually don't equate them regarding forms of violence...

oh wait

:eyes:

Who wants some?

I prefer mine without, thanks.

That's how I like it, too.

Anyone else? I don't mind melting some butter, and I just got a new jar of Hot Salt!

FLAMEWAR!!!

ugh

cuz I mean, what's the point?

and no one yet seems to have changed their position from the other 1000 flamewars on this subject

on the 'net or in rl. I've never seen anyone moved from their current position. I have more useful things to do with my time.

*checks*
And lo and behold, I was right
:eyes:
nice doggies.