So my niece sends me this anti-ACLU email today

You know the one, the marines bowing their heads...

She sent it to a bunch of people, so I did a "reply all" and sent the Snopes link.
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Then I get this email back from one of the other people:

"However, it is fairly strange that in debunking the myth, the ACLU didn’t say that they are not against the soldiers praying, just that they “have no knowledge of the photograph” and “never had a spokesperson” with the name in the email. I would consider this one debunked in only the strictest sense of the word – in spirit, it is probably 100% correct! "
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So I replied:

"Actually it does say that: it says "this item is a fabricated exaggeration of the ACLU stance of the overlap of government and religion. It doesn't represent a real even or a position the ACLU has taken." Most importantly, it makes you wonder what exactly it is the creators of the urban legend are fighting for. If Christianity is their goal, they would best win that argument by not "bearing false witness" against the ACLU, or against the Marines, for that matter."
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So I get this:

First, I will concede the point that the email that started this conversation is fairly misleading and presents a misleading view of the ACLU. They do not appear to have any involvement (at this time) with the effort to remove prayer from the military organization. For an article about the effort (and the response) you can see: (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47432). The people who started this probably got them confused with the freedom from religion group and the Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

What I was referring to in my other email is the answer that the ACLU had given in their response to this email. It strikes me as very vague and evasive. There are many examples of this that you can point to in politics (Did you have sex with that woman… NO… well, what do you mean by “sex”?).

However, here is a less charged example: I don’t know if you have seen the movie the Fugutive, but there is a scene in the movie when the police are looking for Harrison Ford’s character and they go to the hospital where he used to work. They ask one of his co-workers – do you know this man (while showing a picture of harriston ford), and he answers, something along the lines of I haven’t seen him. The police officers trade a knowing look, having noticed that he didn’t answer the question. If someone doesn’t answer the question that is asked, that leads one to believe that they have something to hide. On the ACLU’s own FAQ page, (http://www.aclu.org/about/faqs/index.html#3_9) they have a question – “Why does the ACLU object to federal employees bowing their heads?”. Let’s look at a few possible answers to this:

1) The ACLU supports the rights of all people to pray, including those in government positions and the military. (clear and to the point – puts the issue at rest).

2) NO. We do not object to federal employees praying. (This would be less firm, but still clear and to the point).

What do they say?

3) We have never seen the picture in the email that is going around and do not have a spokesman by the name quoted in the email.


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Dad: Son, did you eat the cookies?

Son: I have never seen the cookie jar that Mom told you about.

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In the interest of clarification and honesty… here are a few things the ACLU is fighting for… (links are to their website)…

http://www.aclu.org/religion/schools/16120prs20020124.html
http://www.aclu.org/religion/discrim/16323prs20010403.html

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So this was my last response.

"Just out of curiosity... do we know what question it was that Snopes asked?

Is it at all possible that the only question Snopes asked was: can you confirm that this was your response to this picture?

Snopes isn't in the business of clarifying ACLU or anyone else's stance on anything. What Snopes does is debunk urban legend. And the legend was that the ACLU put up a stink about that picture.

And for the record the ACLU says this on their faq page:

The ACLU works to ensure that people remain free to chose which religious beliefs (or none) they wish to express and that governments, school boards, and legislatures do not become involved in deciding which religious beliefs should be promoted or in spending taxpayer dollars to support religious activities and symbols.

http://www.aclu.org/religion/index.html

Is there something ambiguous about that? They're out there protecting the rights of everyone. Unless you have a problem with this ruling:

http://www.aclu.org/religion/schools/27673prs20061212.html "

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How am I doing? Anything I'm forgetting?

But you were being polite, so I completely understand. You're doing a wonderful job in your replies.

If she's getting her arguments from "The Fugitive" she's really scraping the bottom of the barrel. :eyes:

Honestly, I don't argue with people who forward bulk emails. My standard response to them is that I'm always happy to debate but not with lazy people who can't put forth their own opinions or do their own research. Why the hell should I do their research for them? I tell 'em that when they want to debate me with their own words and opinions, I'll be happy to oblige.

she sent the original email, but the argument is coming from someone else she sent the email to, because I did a Snopes.com link and a "reply to all".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=284x284

This is from our Propaganda Debunking forum. Much good data in there.

your "opponent" sounds like a rightie judging by the obvious ACLU baiting, use of worldnet, and using Clinton as an example of political dodging when we've had so many better examples since then....

But good for you. Hopefully at least one person will walk away realizing the ACLU is not trying to turn America into "gay atheist hedonists" as seems to be the common misconception. Honestly, I've often wondered about the vitriol shown toward the ACLU, when they in fact represent everyone and anyone and their right to speech and belief.

telling her she's out of your will for aggravated assbaggery and willful dumbitude.

"aggravated assbaggery and willful dumbitude."


Love it!!!!! :rofl: