Thoughts On Alec Baldwin's Message to his Daughter

I heard this, this morning. Time line of my reaction


1) Wow he really used some abusive language aimed at his kid. That's awful.
2) Remembered the anger and resentment I felt the last time my ten year old lied to my face.
3) Remembered the language and tone I used including a few well placed and consciously used expletives to make SURE he understood this was not a little thing we were talking about.
4) Thanked GOD I am not a public person with an ex-wife willing to break a court order to make me look bad in a court custody case where my child is being used as a weapon with no regard for the embarrassment sure to be experienced by our child.
5) Realized that I had NO CLUE what precipitated this reaction from dad. Could it be that dad said no to some ridiculous request made by an 11 year old who knows mommy and daddy can "afford" just about anything, and upon being told no played mommies against daddy and got what she wanted? Or did the daughter make an honest decision that she wanted to blow off a "visitation weekend," and hurt a petulant, childish man's feelings; and he subsequently "lost it" in an immature hurtful tirade? (At the time I didn't know the message was left as a reaction to the kid turning off her cell phone at a time she new dad was supposed to be calling)
6) Gee I bet he felt horrible about saying that about thirty seconds after he hung up the phone (either for noble reason's or selfish ones, probably some of both)
7) Gee I bet he REALLY feels awful about this now that it's in the public media (again either for noble or selfish reason, but most likely a combination of the two)
8) Man there is going to be a LOT of public bashing of Baldwin based on the bullshit idea that "there's NO excuse for EVER talking to an 11 year old in that way." I guarantee that those who espouse that view either NEVER raised a child, or despite knowing damn well that there are plenty of valid reasons for ripping a kid a new asshole, will not acknowledge it because they want to hold onto a fake reason to justify ripping Alec Baldwin apart for doing what every single parent on the PLANET has done at some point between their child's 5th and 18th birthdays.

Look I don't care how "good" a parent you are, at some point your child is going to do something that is going to piss you off BIG TIME. Expressing that anger is in fact part of teaching a child that their actions and decisions have consequences. Just like realizing that you blew your stack for no good reason and apologizing for it teaches them that real adults aren't perfect and get things wrong sometimes and the mature thing to do is recognize it and apologize and/or try to make things right. Of course the next phone call where he appologized; or the face to face after he "flew out there," where he may have said exactly that (or not) is not a part of the story. You can bet teh Bassinger side of the battle will not be quick to break the court order to let the media knwo that Alec was truely remorseful (maybe he wasn't we don't know) and did his best to explain in more rational terms why he was so angy.

Not one parent on the "left" or "right" would like tape of them at their angriest (even when it's justified) moments with their kids aired to a national audience to be picked apart by armchair psychologists (me included), some of whom have a bone to pick with you. It is unfortunate for all involved that this tape was released to the media and whoever did it should be held in contempt of court, fined heavily and thrown in jail for a couple days. There is a REASON the court ordered that things like this be held in confidence; this "media incident" and the inevitable compounded-hurt experience by this child is exactly why the order was in place.

1. I have a twelve-year-old son. I have NEVER talked to him like that, EVER. Why? BECAUSE IT'S ABUSIVE.

2. If this were a right-wing celebrity (say, Patricia Heaton), we would be all over this for what it is: psychological abuse.

I'm happy that Baldwin has been a vocal advocate for our causes. It sucks that this divorce is so bitter that tapes like this have been released to the media. None of that changes the fact that what Baldwin did was very abusive and damaging, and it shows a man unable to control his anger, even when it matters most.

I am astounded at the number of people here who seem to think that what Baldwin did was not that bad.

My god, I have yelled at my kids, I have even sworn while yelling at my kids. But I have never, EVER, called them ignorant pigs, or stupid pigs, or whatever the awful crap he said to his kid. I don't care what she may or may not have done - NO KID should be called those names, ever!

And you are right - if Patricia Heaton or Dennis Miller or any of those wingnut clowns had done this, DU would go to DEFCON 4, we'd be so outraged. Let's not be hypocrites about it just because Baldwin is a lefty - he's a disgusting asshole for talking like this to his kid.

Had my late father EVER talked to me that way, I sure as hell wouldn't answer the phone when he called.

saying that perhaps somehow the child did something to deserve this. It's mind-boggling - did it ever occur to these people that perhaps his daughter was in the bathroom when he called, that maybe she was occupied for a split-second with something other than His Almighty Self, and she just missed the call?

For the first time in a long time, I may have to sign off of DU till this subsides, I am appalled at how people are excusing his horrible behavior.

I wish the hide thread feature wasn't turned off.

There are plenty of us here who feel like you do.

:hug:

We'd never let a Repug get away with this. I don't understand how anyone can excuse Baldwin for this.

By the way, maybe - just maybe - it's Baldwin acting like this that makes the kid not want to talk ti him to begin with. If my father talked to me that way when I was a kid of that age, I would do whatever I could to avoid talking to him.

Can you elaborate? Other than Alec Baldwin being angry at his daughter, I have no point of reference.

--p!

http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/Movies/04/19/baldwin.bassinger.ap/index.html

On the recording, Baldwin can be heard admonishing his 11-year-old daughter, Ireland, "You are a rude, thoughtless little pig."

"You don't have the brains or the decency as a human being," he says, apparently upset that she did not answer her phone for a planned call.

"I don't give a damn that you're 12 years old, or 11 years old, or that you're a child, or that your mother is a thoughtless pain in the ass who doesn't care about what you do as far as I'm concerned. You have humiliated me for the last time with this phone."

He goes on to say that he plans to fly from New York to Los Angeles "for the day just to straighten you out on this issue."

I agree that I have never called my kid a pig. I am not defending the used of that word its terrible. BUt we ALL make mistakes, and the over all message he was conveying was "it is rude and hurtful to turn your cell phone off when you KNOW I am going to be calling."

Again I am not saying that his use of the word "pig" to describe his child's actions was a good thing. I am saying that expressing anger in and of it self to a child is NOT abusive. I concede th point on his use of that specific word, but not on the larger issue of "is it abusive to speak angrily, even loudly to your child?"

And as far as him flying to NY to straiten her out, when you are in his tax bracket, and you daughter live 3000 miles away, that is no different than saying "I am driving over to see you right now to straiten this out," when you kid live 20 minutes away.

And you are missing the other point of my thoughts: WE DON'T KNOW THE DETAILS OF HOW ALEC BALDWIN TREATS HIS CHILD ON A DAILY WEEKLY MONTHLY BASIS.

All we are privy to, is this one tape. If there was a history of abuse, I would be killing the guy. If there is one point me to a source. It doesn't matter to me one bit that he is a "leebral,"
all I am saying is people need to stop being so frigging quick to judge. If he was a Conservative with no prior record of being abusive, I would be saying the exact same thing.


To be honest w/ you if I could have posted this to my journal without posting it to a forum I would have.

In this situation, he made a huge and hurtful mistake - on a recorded message. It is not okay that he speaks like that to his child ever.

I am not saying that it is "ok." For him to call his child a Pig of any sort. I simply didn't say that.

What I am saying is that we all make mistakes and YES it DOES matter if this is a part of continued abusive verbal behavior or not. If it is he is a generally abusive parent who the court would be right in restricting his contacts to nothing but supervised visits. If it isn't indicative of the way he normally on a daily basis deals with his daughter then this was a terrible mistake for which he needs to give a heart felt apology.

As for "no excuse to ever speak to a child 'like that'" I keep hearing that. The girl is eleven years old. Do you honestly think she's never been yelled at? Do you honestly think it would be healthy for her to make it to her twenty-first birthday without ever having to hear someone actually express anger with appropriate emotional affect? If you do I strongly disagree.

I am not saying that its "ok" to insult a child on a personal level - I am saying that it is not WRONG to express appropriate anger. I have since this morning had the chance to listen to the whole tape, and it doesn't sound like this was a "one time thing" with him being scheduled for a call and his daughter not having the phone on. That IS rude and it IS hurtful to a father. And before you say it, if the daughter is being prevented by Ms. Bassinger from having the phone on and Ms. Bassinger is making it look like her daughter is responsible, then she is WAY more abusive than he is. IF that is the case. If not, then he no doubt overreacted, but had a perfect right to express his hurt at his kid's actions. To do otherwise is to deny the child the knowledge that her actions have consequences and can hurt others.

I've been angry at my son plenty of times, and I've found (hopefully) constructive, non-abusive ways to deal with it.

You can be angry, but you should not be abusive. And it doesn't matter to me if there is a history of abuse or not, THIS WAS ABUSE. Once is enough for me.

Once is enough? Once is enough for what? For you to decide that at his core Alec Baldwin is an abusive parent who shouldn't be allowed to see his child ever again? Once is enough for what exactly.

Lord knows there is no possibility at all that he made a horrible mistake that he regrets. 'Cause human beings never do that. Ever. At least I'm sure YOU never have have you?

And yet, in spite of the poor little waif's pain, betrayal, and humiliation, her mother saw fit to broadcast the tape of Sweet Daddy's adult tantrum to the entire world. Ireland is doubly accursed. Even in the (unlikely) case that she really is a mega-brat, nobody deserves a father who is a blow-hard bully and a mother who is a vindictive harridan.

Still, I can't help thinking this will turn into this spring's big GOP Crocodile Tears Festival.

Perhaps James Dobson (and brother Stevie) can offer Big Alec some tips on how to administer painful-but-Biblically-justifiable "correction" to Ireland. (It's easy, Alec; just pretend you're England.) The Conservatives prefer to treat their children to that kind of pain rather that to verbal abuse. A $19.95 video of Christian chastisement could put Ireland through college, now that Kim Bassinger is so poor she's had to hock the china.

If I couldn't crack wise about it, I'd weep, unashamedly. Sometimes I just want to resign from the human race.

As much as I hated reading it, thanks for the link.

--p!

You're right. That poor kid is doomed.

Lots of people overcome childhood problems to be good, productive, and healthy adults. These parents obviously have a lot to learn though. If anyone is doomed, it is the parents. I hope the child gets a good therapist at some point.

but he always struck me as being kind of an ass.

:shrug:

I think parents should give every effort possible to not speaking that way to their children, no matter how angry they feel. It's emotional abuse to call them names. There's no excuse for it, and if he didn't, he should have apologized for it immediately. But I think Kim Bassinger is an even bigger ass for making it public. Most parents, at some time or another, will have that moment where they regret their action, even if it isn't abusive. There will be those moments where we know we could have handled things better. I don't blame her for turning that over to the appropriate people in the custody fight, because I do think it crossed a line, but making it public was beyond awful. That poor kid.

I have three kids. I've been plenty angry at them plenty of times. I have NEVER, ever used language like this -

"You don't have the brains or the decency as a human being,"

"I don't give a damn that you're 12 years old, or 11 years old, or that you're a child, or that your mother is a thoughtless pain in the ass who doesn't care about what you do as far as I'm concerned. You have humiliated me for the last time with this phone."


I don't care how pissed you are - you don't ever tell your child they're stupid. That's one of the rottenest things you can do to a kid. Nor should anyone force their view of the other parent on a kid, no matter how badly you hate them and no matter if they're doing it to you. That's bullshit, it's not fair and it's going to bite you in the ass.

It's not right that a private matter has become a media matter. But that's bullshit language to use to your child.

How sad.

My mother once told me she wished I'd choked on my umbilical cord.

I'm wondering if you can possibly have a happy childhood knowing something like that. I sure didn't.

It's too easy for a parent to be feeling selfish and only thinking of how a situation is affecting his/her emotions, and never considering the impact their words can have on a child.

I mean, I know I was a pain in the ass, but she always knows the absolute nastiest, meanest thing to say that will stay with a person for a really long time.

I hope Alec and Kim's kids can make it through this. It would be horrible trapped in a situation like that.

My son is the dearest thing in this world and brings tears to my eyes when I just think of him; which of course is all the time.
I don't care what anyone on this board thinks of me; babies especially and children are beautiful and precious and wonderful as a whole and are here for a reason. How anyone could ever treat them violently is something I will never be able to comprehend.
Call me a sap; make fun of me world; I don't give a crap.

Hugs to you if you ever want them.

And I have never and will never speak to my child that way. No matter that my parents might have called me stupid many times, or maybe because I understand how damaging it is.

Don't we all think things we wouldn't and don't say? My oldest child is almost 20. We went through a horrible, horrible period with her (I'll spare you the details) a year or so ago, and she WAS downright rude, thoughtless, and cruel. There were many times I thought, "You are a spoiled, selfish brat." I didn't say that to her, but I damn sure thought it. I'm only human.

First of all, don't assume that "everyone" blows up like that at their kids. I assure you, there are some people who can maintain self-control, even when extremely angry. I would understand a blowup like this a bit more if directed at a teenager, for doing something REALLY bad, like drinking alcohol, or joyriding in the family car. But turning off a cellphone just isn't a good enough reason to verbally shred and insult an 11 year old little girl. No, we don't know what preceded it, but I can't think of a single thing that an 11 year old could do to deserve that level of vitriol and viciousness from her own father. There IS no excuse for speaking to a child that way--the "everyone does it sometimes" excuse included. He owes that little girl a monumental apology.

Second of all, he insulted and degraded the child's mother on a voice mail meant for the child. That shows that he isn't the least bit concerned about how much it *hurts* his daughter to hear one parent being slammed by the other. Frankly, if he were *my* Dad and he spoke like that about my mother, I'd turn off my phone rather than talk to him too! As for being "humiliated" because someone doesn't answer the phone--seriously, how inflated and egotistical do you have to be, to consider it a "humiliation" because your kid isn't waiting to pounce on the phone when your Imperial Self is calling? I know he's a celebrity, and used to being the center of attention, but good freaking grief!

As for the comments about "breaking a court order"--court orders apply to the two parents in the situation. This message was left on the DAUGHTER'S phone. In this day and age of YouTube and blogging, it's just as likely that the kid herself leaked it to the press. And she has every right to do so, considering the way she was treated by an adult who's supposed to love and protect her.

I've only heard portions of the recording (can't listen here at work), but from the bits I heard on the radio, it didn't sound as though he felt "humiliated" because she didn't answer the phone. I got the sense that he was addressing some larger issue of which we aren't aware.

In a case like this, context is everything. I'm not thrilled with the way he comported himself, but since this is a deliberate release by one party in an emotionally charged situation, it would seem prudent to suspend judgment until we know more.

you will hear him say exactly that: she humiliated him by not answering the phone when he called her.

Okay, that is pretty darned lame.

"Hey, I want to tell you something, OK? And I want to leave a message for you right now. 'Cause again, it's 10:30 here in New York on a Wednesday, and once again I've made an ass of myself trying to get to a phone to call you at a specific time. When the time comes for me to make the phone call, I stop whatever I'm doing and I go and I make that phone call. At 11 o'clock in the morning in New York and if you don't pick up the phone at 10 o'clock at night. And you don't even have the expletive phone turned on. I want you to know something, OK?"

"I'm tired of playing this game with you. I'm leaving this message with you to tell you you have insulted me for the last time. You have insulted me. You don't have the brains or the decency as a human being. I don't give a damn that you're 12 years old, or 11 years old, or that you're a child, or that your mother is a thoughtless pain in the ass who doesn't care about what you do as far as I'm concerned. You have humiliated me for the last time with this phone."

***

"And when I come out there next week, I'm going to fly out there for the day just to straighten you out on this issue. I'm going to let you know just how disappointed in you I am and how angry I am with you that you've done this to me again. You've made me feel like shit and you've made me feel like a fool over and over and over again. And this crap you pull on me with this expletive phone situation that you would never dream of doing to your mother and you do it to me constantly and over and over again. I am going to get on a plane and I am going to come out there for the day and I am going to straighten your ass out when I see you."

"Do you understand me? I'm going to really make sure you get it. Then I'm going to get on a plane and I'm going to turn around and come home. So you'd better be ready Friday the 20th to meet with me. So I'm going to let you know just how I feel about what a rude little pig you really are. You are a rude, thoughtless little pig, OK?"

-----------------------------

All I can say is my father was an alcoholic and my mother was bipolar. They fought all the time and neither of them ever said anything like that to me.

but for some perspective....

she was widowed a second time when my dad died...she had two kids...had to re-enter the workforce with no education beyond high school and when my brother and I were in one of our moods....we could just set her off...and she was a very very patient person...but when she had enough...we got an earful and punished..

It was scary at the time...but in some ways...she scared us so bad...that we ended up trying to be extra good to make up for it...and she actually did a stellar job raising us and even helping us to put us through college...she worked 4 part time jobs...(my brother and I both also worked as well..but she wanted us to have a better life..)

So in the end...I realized that the tad bit of crazy that she exhibited and the mean things she would say could and should be forgiven...I would hate to have to walk in her shoes...cuz I don't know that I could be half as patient...

From this transcript, it appears

1.) Baldwin has been repeatedly trying to stay in contact with his teenage daughter, something a responsible parent should want to do, but despite his efforts, she has been unable to be reached by her parent, which in this day and age, doesn't seem plausible.

2.) Baldwin expressed his frustration with the situation of not being able to talk to his daughter but in a effort for a verbal coup de grace, makes thoughtless rude insults.

3.) A individual with access to the message, released this to the media.

Unless there's more to the story (which is quite possible), it seems there were three mistakes, only one was from Baldwin. While Baldwin's mistake has gotten attention, the other two shouldn't be ignored if Baldwin's mistake receives media attention.

Fuck. There is no excuse for that shit.

What the hell is that supposed to mean? Over and out, game over, you're not my daughter anymore? Last time or what? Last time he will ever talk to her? Last time before he flies across country and "makes sure she gets it"? Jeeeeebus.

That is an incredibly threatening phone call. No parent should ever make their child believe that something they have done may have caused an irrevocable and negative change in the way the parent regards them.

How do we even know it's authentic? Given Baldwin's courageous stands against the Chimp and his fellow pricks, I wouldn't put it beyond them to set him up. Until I have some concrete proof that he did this, I ain't buying it.

He's been railing in public against his ex-wife for "breaking a court order" and releasing that recording.

However, for all we know it could easily have been the daughter herself who leaked it.

First, I think Baldwin's attack on Kim Bassinger is unreasonable, both to his daughter and to the media. None of us knows how the media learned of the phone message. If the kid was upset, maybe she sent it. If the mom submitted to the court (and I wouldn't blame her a bit for doing so), then it's a public record. If Baldwin didn't want his abusive language shared, maybe he shouldn't have left such an abusive message on voicemail.

Alec Baldwin is not a victim. There IS no excuse for talking to anyone like that, let alone one's own 12 year-old daughter. For all he knew, his daughter could have been injured or she could have been prevented from having access to the phone. It might not have been her fault at all that she missed the call. But I'm sure Baldwin's language must have really encouraged her to participate in these no doubt joyous conversations. :eyes:

People aren't perfect. Parents get upset and maybe say hurtful things, but that message was extreme. Most parents are adults and don't need to hurt their children to "parent" them, as Baldwin's publicist claims his message to be. Baldwin's half-assed explanation was simply stupid. Though claiming the moral high ground of not talking to the media, he manages to insult his child's mother and blames the child for his behavior.

Even if Baldwin's accusations were true, I don't blame Kim Bassinger a bit for not forcing her daughter to talk to Baldwin. I wouldn't force my kid to be subjected to verbal abuse and insults either. And you shouldn't ever leave a voicemail you wouldn't want Perez Hilton to hear. But I suppose power can go to your head, when you're yelling at 12 year-old. :eyes:

was, imo, far more abusive by using this in a very public media war against her ex-husband.

If "thoughtless little pig" was the worst thing I was called growing up, I'd have no complaints. Is it right? No. Is it what quite often happens when dealing with adolescent children? yes.

And we don't know if Kim's the one who leaked it. The daughter could just as easily have leaked it herself--and would have been perfectly justified in doing so.

defines Adolescent as between the ages of 10 and 19. Of course 11 is adolescent - and probably pubescent.


Yes, I'm sure the daughter called her PR man and had it spread to the media :eyes:

likely has greater access to (and knowledge about) the internet and technology because of affluence and media exposure, it's not exactly hard to imagine her leaking it to a blog.

11 year olds post every day at places like YouTube, MySpace, and LiveJournal. But I guess that e-mailing a sound file is SO much more complicated than that? :eyes:

As for the adolescent comment--since this involves an American child, I was using the American cultural understanding of adolescence.

From the Wikipedia article on adolescence:

The ages of adolescence vary by culture. The World Health Organization (WHO) defines adolescence as the period of life between 10 and 19 years of age. In contrast, in the United States, adolescence is generally considered to begin somewhere between ages 12 and 14, and end at 19 or 20.

I would love - LOVE - for some everyday American parents to have their daily dealings with their children trumpeted in the press. Celebrities are not human in our eyes. We treat them like public property, judge them with our fickled fingers, indulging in schadenfreude when their flaws are marched before our eyes. We love it. LOVE it. We eat it up. ("Give me more!") Then we ignore the many private American parents who speak to their kids like this on many days, as they flip through the most recent issue of The Enquirer, hypocritically seething at the "unholy" in Hollywood.

Fuck US for not finding our own flaws FIRST.

I don't know that anyone else will read this... but thanks for understanding that I wasn't "excusing" or making excuses for Alec Baldwin's behavior. I was merely acknowledging my thoughts on fist hearing the story and pieces of the tape and not knowing what it was really "about." I was just taking the pulse of the first few minutes of what my actual reactions where. Isn't that a function of a journal entry?

The following is on the larger issue of parents and children not specifically about Alec Baldwin and his daughter.

I like most people here have never thought it was a good idea to call a kid (no matter what age) stupid or a pig or other personal attacks on the kid themselves and I always seek to address the behavior as unacceptable, not my son as a person being unacceptable. That being said, I am also acknowledging that although I CAN categorically say I have never called my son a " stupid pig," I cannot say I have ALWAYS been successful about in not making my negative reaction to his behavior about "who he is." And to be honest - children are people. They are people who need to learn a LOT, but they have personalities and proclivities all their own from birth. No amount of "perfect parenting," will produce a flawless child. Some times their behavior IS about who they are and like all people sometimes who they are is a miserable prick, and some times it's a sweet smelling wonderfully happy making person of sensitivity and grace. Luckily for me I am blessed with a child who from the moment he could talk has been 90% the latter. I pray to God that as he goes through puberty he remains so. I further pray that on the days when he isn't, I can remind him and myself of the great heart that I know beats in his chest. Oh, and I reserve the right to tell him he's being a prick when he being a prick.

Plus it's not a parents "job" to raise happy children. It is a parents job to raise a well adjusted ADULT. The way to do that is to mirror good adult behavior and have age appropriate expectations of the child. Alec Baldwin's behavior was boorish and repugnant. That it was directed at his child just makes it worse BUT: we all do things in relation to our children that we regret. I have. Hopefully, we all (including Alec Baldwin) have the balls to face up to it and admit our mistakes and ask for forgiveness.

I think every parent on this board should reserve just a little of the scorn they are heaping on Alec Baldwin (he deserves some), for themselves for the next time they make a mistake with THEIR child. That and be thankful that when you do, it is not likely to be broadcast to millions of people.

I am far from perfect.

My parents were not perfect either and I remember some hurtful stuff. BUT, I also remember even more supportive and loving parenting. Parents don't have to be perfect. They have to be "good enough." If any of us were subject to scrutiny under a microscope we'd all fail miserably.

going on. I don't really follow entertainment news, but I'm sure I'll stumble upon it soon enough.

Does anyone remember when he called a hansom cab driver a "faggot" and threatened to kick his ass? Like a lot of us, he needs to work on better control of his emotions. As for what he said, meh. I got into it with my mother once, and she said much worse than that. In the world of unpleasant exchanges between parents and teens, this doesn't even rate that high on the drama meter.

I am a highly educated progressive adult raised in the nurturant parent model. I love my children and would sacrifice my life for them. I am human. I have lost my temper and said things I instantly regreted.

I have to disagree with those who believe that isolated comments such as these would scar children irrevocably for the rest of their natural lives. If this is indicative of a pattern than I would agree. Children are resilient and responsive to apologies for anomalous utterances. They aren't going to be forever damaged by one outburst. I hope this isn't evidence of a pattern.

Shame on whomever released it to the public.

I have lost my temper with children. They know it is the exception, not the rule. I apologize, too. Children are resiliant.

what the parent does the other 95% of the time. These people pretending they think they know what happens here make me sick

but there is something about your own children...they can inspire you to tears of joy or drive you to the edge of reason...

I have yelled at my own kids...hell my one son has a therapist for his Asperger's and once when he was having a really bad period of about two months...I was dangling from a thread and he pushed me over the edge and I yelled at him for a good 20 minutes about his behavior and I gave him a big lecture about how he was driving me nuts...

After it was all over..I instantly called the therapist to tell her because I thought perhaps I should visit the mental hospital...and she told me that given the circumstances it was only natural that I would be angry with him and that in fact he would have to realize that his actions could drive people over the edge...and better it be me to teach him than some stranger who would not love him like I do...

You are one of the people here who has made me realize I am not crazy for having negative emotions and sometimes losing it with my child. Its the other 90% of the time, and sincere remorse for having yelled, that helps make the kid understand that transient anger does not equate to lack of love or abandonment. That is all I was saying about the Baldwin situation.

From the responses I've gotten, you'd think I was saying it was perfectly ok for him to have said these things to his daughter, and that he has nothing to be ashamed of. I wasn't, it's not ok and he should be ashamed. I just don't happen to think (absent a pattern) he "should lose his kid forever." But anyone who doesn't understand how it's possible to get driven by all circumstances to yell at your child and say things you regret, either has no worries in life, is emotionally constipated, or is just not being honest with themselves.

Parents can set the most positive role model by owning up to their flaws. Anyone ever wonder why Bush can't admit he's ever made a mistake? I'm going to have to guess he was never on the receiving end of an apology when he was growing up.

I'd lend anyone my 10 year old for a week if I thought it would teach them about being driven over the edge. But I think the important thing for him right now is that someone who loves him unconditionally is the one being driven over the edge.

when he was about four. he would do wrong and then give me an apology. i never apologized in my life. was like giving away something. was like made me weak. i would listen to him apologize and would be important for me to also ACCEPT his apology. big step. and made me realize that he was brave and strong in is apology. (he is 12 now). i have found the grace of apology to be a wonderful thing. i will go into a rant, when i know i am in the wrong, walk into their room, and apologize. no excuse, justifying or validating. just apologize. and the energy of it is so powerful.

yup

And as a kid who got beat a lot, let me just say that this shit is STUPID. Listen to this in the entirety. This sounds like a hurt parent parenting their kid because they constantly treat them like shit because the other parent who hates their guts has turned the kid into a mini them, hurting the father. Do I agree that he should live on the other side of the country from his kid? No, but the dude has to work. Do I agree that he flew off the handle, yes, but a lot of parents do this.
Listen here:
http://www.aolcdn.com/tmz_audio/0419_baldwin.mp3

I'm sorry, but this just sounds like a frustrated parent.
Duckie

But it's not like I think the girl is going to be scarred for life for them, either.
I know all about being the object of verbal abuse. I grew up with a constant stream of it from my stepfather. Verbal abuse and threats and physical intimidation even though he didn't have the balls to hit me. I'm sure 'pig' was one of the many things he called me, but 'waste of life' was his personal favorite.
I don't know what kind of parent Baldwin is otherwise, or what caused him to fly off the handle like this, or who leaked the tape.
The comments he made were inexcusable in ANY context, but I don't necessarily think it's part of a pattern.
That being said, if it's just another chip in the pile of a very ugly divorce, those comments might be very wounding in the long run.
My stepdad told my (at the time 8 year old) little sister 'Go ahead and kill me. I'll give you the knife.' It was only one thing that he said to her, but she will probably NEVER forget those words.

I am NOT saying he should be excused for what he said. It was hurtful and wrong. Hopefully it isn't a pattern of abuse. We don't know. And we don't know what is going on in his divorce either. I know divorce gets VERY bitter sometimes and people do and say things they would never have thought themselves capable of. I watched the divorce of a friend of mine who's husband I genuinely liked. Even without goading and churlishness from her, he turned into a person during that divorce I would NEVER have though he would be. He used his children as pawns to hurt her at every turn. I kid you not, NO ONE who knew him, and "them" before the divorce would ever have thought he would do and say the things he did.

That this happened in the context of a public bitter divorce does not excuse it, but it does make it a bit more understandable how an otherwise intelligent and caring parent can lose it. Hopefully he has done everything he could since then to show his daughter how sorry he is. If not, he's really is a prick. We just can't say for sure, one way or the other, from the outside.

Don't worry. :)

bitter, ugly divorce, this child has been nothing more than something to fight over for both adult parties. As parents I think it's safe to say they both suck ass.

Sorry. I don't care what the circumstances are. That's abuse, plain and simple. Things you say to children at that age can determine who they are; screaming to your 11-year-old daughter that she's a thoughtless little pig is a terrible, terrible thing to do.

If a conservative personality had done this to his child, we'd all be screaming for the courts to take the child away.

Baldwin fucked up...and he may lose custody over it.

I have called them pigs because their rooms were filthy and they decided playing nintendo or driving me nuts was better than picking up after themselves......so I was using pig as a barnyard reference...perhaps I am bad parent as a result...but my children (and one of them has Asperger's) have sometimes driven me so crazy that I have literally had to leave the house to scream out in agony...
and they are good kids generally...but boy...sometimes the perfect storm happens and I am ready for the looney bin.

As for Mr. Baldwin...aside from his very public nasty divorce...I don't know what precipitated this.(and I did listen to the tape)..but I am sure that he would love to take it back...and all parents and kids do stuff they regret...

Saying that someone is being a pig (read: messy) versus saying they ARE a pig...I can clearly see the difference.
Hope others can too.
But, that's not what happened here. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

I have been driven over the edge by my kids and screamed at them for stuff that they were doing...and typically it wasn't for little stuff..it was for that persistent irritable behavior they exhibit at certain times.

Different people handle it in different ways...my mother raised two of us by herself...she would light into us at the drop of a hat...but in retrospect...I know why...and all the while I knew she loved me...and she was an artist with profanity...

I for one wouldn't be, because I KNOW that sometimes people do and say things they don't mean and regret it immediately. As I've said elsewhere, IF this was a part of a pattern of abusive behavior, I would agree with you. The fact of the matter is you don't know it is and I don't know it isn't. All I was thinking was "this is a case where the knee jerk reaction isn't necessarily correct." Suffice it to say it's pretty darn judgmental and a LOT harsher of you to advocate taking his kid away from him forever for what you admit could be a one time or at least rare thing.

I suppose you have NEVER done anything in a fit of emotion that you regretted and sought forgiveness for later? Wow lucky you.

But I have NEVER called my kid a mean name, nor have I gone out of my way to be outrageously ugly to my child. I've never even hinted at my feelings about my ex-husband to my child--to do so would be cruel and manipulative. I may have screwed up a lot of things in my life, but I've never tried to hurt my son with words. You can bank on that.

I do know that this is a dirty divorce. I do know that both parents are guilty of putting the child dead center in the middle of it. I don't think that Basinger is the model of perfect parenting, either.

And I didn't advocate him losing his kid over this. But it's already being reported that he cannot contact her or see her until after a court hearing in early May.

If I were the judge, I'd call Alec and Ireland into chambers and have a long talk with both of them. I wouldn't take custody away. He loves his daughter, of that I have no doubt. But he's had anger issues for a long time--and he needs to deal with those before he causes permanent damage to his child.

(And I think that Basinger is a manipulative witch for leaking the voicemail. She and Baldwin BOTH need to get a grip, or that child doesn't have a chance.)

this is NOT what his relationship is with his daughter. we know of one moment in their relationship how he speaks to her. we dont know anything else. we dont know if this is the way he talks to her regularly. we dont know if the fight between him and the wife is run thru the daughter. we dont know if the daughter purposely does not want a call from father cause he is "angry" in the calls. we dont know if the mom has contaminated the childs head about the father. we dont know if the daughter is just a bitch

we cant say this call makes him a bad father

we cant say this is just one call and all parents get angry

we dont know. and i personaly dont need to know. not my business, dont care. i am more into this discussion because of the conversation of parenting (my interest) not the specific people

The more important aspect of what has become a discussion is aspects and realities of parenting.

I will say though that this was only "posted in the DU lounge" because we can't "just" post to our journals. I wanted to post the thought process I went through when I heard this because I thought it was an interesting arc from "this guy is an asshole" to "wait, who am I to say that. I've said things in anger or frustration or even hurt to my son that I regretted and I know darn well I love my kid more than my own life." That's all it was. My Journal entry.

There is no excuse for what he did or for verbal abuse of a child or of anyone else.
Lee

Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt need to adopt the young lady.

What kid wouldn't dig being named "Ireland Basinger-Baldwin-Jolie-Pitt".

Now, can we get back to the business of the Lounge???? :P

I just want you to know that was funny and I really didn't "intend" for this to be a big topic here. I only posted to the lounge because it's impossible to post to one's journal w/ out posting to a "room." Maybe the lounge wasn't a good place for it though. Any suggestions of another, less populated place for future posts would be gratefully accepted.

Laughter is MUCH appreciated.

If humor is requisite, the Lounge denizens will see to its prompt injection.
:D

a person who stood you up. If you really expect the other person to listen to the whole thing, its an earful, and its a lot to take emotionally. Its a lot for an adult. Too much for a child.

I think its ok to tell a child that they have hurt your feelings, to get angry and talk about it. But you do it face to face, and you do it in a safe situation where they have a chance to respond and apologize or whatever. You don't deliver a two minute diatribe over the phone.

Baldwin is a great talent, but one gets the general impression he's also an abusive narcissist. He is in love with himself, and I bet there is hardly room for anyone but him in any of his relationships.

He was talking to the girl as he would to an adult-- in particular, as he would talk to his ex-wife. He is channelling the rage he feels at his ex onto his daughter, and it is completely inappropriate. He feel manipulated by Basinger, so he is telling his child she is "humiliating" him. As a narcissist, he wants to be unconditionally loved and admired, and he flies into a rage when he is not treated as he desires.

An inexcusable outburst.

But why is it on the news and why should it be any of our business? :shrug:

It should never have been leaked.

:hi:

was his perception that everything was about HIM. He blamed his 11 year old for making him look like a fool and for making him angry.

Being angry because his kid wasn't respecting an agreement that they had made, being angry about wasted time and feeling hurt are all totally OK and understandable. But, telling her that she is a pig because SHE's responsible for his anger is harmful to a kid that age.

I like Alec Baldwin, so I found this disappointing. (And, yes, I've said things to my kids that I've regretted and apologized for.)

And I still have major issues with it that have negatively affected my life to this day.
I hope that Ireland is resilient and has other people in her life who are positive.
To me, it seems as if he is taking out his anger for his ex out on his daughter. It seems that her mother also has anger against him and may be using it against Ireland as well. And the poor girl has to hear (whether expressly stated or not) that she is bad and responsible for this whole situation. That is a heavy burden to carry. Parents are supposed to take care of their children, not the other way around.
Maybe I am reading too much into this but I doubt it.

...and speaking as one who was very frequently "talked to" in a very similar manner by a certain parent of mine, it is abuse, plain and simple. No one should EVER treat their child like this.

The whole situation with this and the custody situation is just sad.

I do not think any less of Alec Baldwin because of this. I do hope that he can work through this anger.