Would you call this sexual harassment?

This morning a man called in to a local radio station (102.5 FM in Greenville, SC) saying that once he had been accused of sexual harassment. This was his story.

He asked a woman, an Admin. Assistant at his workplace, for a date. She turned him down. (She was divorced. He was single or divorced at the time.)

Shortly after this—maybe immediately after, he started bringing coffee and bagels to her and two other Admin Assts, both married women, every morning for two weeks.

Then he got called in to his supervisor and was told that a sexual harassment complaint had been filed against him. He didn’t consider it was sexual harassment; he thought he was just being nice.

What do you think?

as being the "innocent", good-intentions side.

If that was truly all that happened, then no, I don't think it's sexual harassment. But I'd have to hear *her* side of it before knowing for sure.

We never know until we have the full story. In fact to be fair, we'd have to hear his side, her side, and and the version of other people who witnessed the events.

more to this story, and it probably isn't innocent.

would like to hear from all 3 women before i come to a conclusion

One thought I had was, if this woman had been stalked or something similar before, she would understandably be hypervigilant about that.

But even as the story was told, I would say it came close to the edge of harassment.

on the one hand -- i can see yes, possibly it could be harassment

on the other hand -- with ONLY this information, it is a sad world in which we live

I suspect there may have been more to it than that, but let's make believe there wasn't: Yes. She turned him down and he continued to give her attention she was neither seeking nor wanting. I would have asked him WHY he pestered her after she said no. Maybe he WAS just "being nice," but I doubt it. I've seen this kind of behavior at work before. I've had to discipline men for doing this very thing. Sometimes they are just clueless, but usually it's a very passive aggressive way in which to bother the woman involved and try to get away with it.

by bringing in bagels for the whole office?

Did anyone ask him to stop bringing in the bagels? Isn't the definition clear about the behavior being "unwanted"? He didn't ask her out again (that behavior WAS unwanted). He brought bagels into the office. Unless someone said to him that that behavior was unwanted, how would he know that it was unwelcome?

From the info I have. He never brought coffee before, but suddenl;y started doing it after she turned him down? Which means he chatted her up. She had let him know she was interested in ONLY a professional relationship, but he refused to respect that line. He knew it was unwelcome because her "no" concerning a date told him that. I see the bagels thing as very passive-aggressive and sneaky.

I wouldn't fire someone for this, but I would counsel them and warn them.

It's possibly telling that the other women also fired complaints.

I didn't see that other women had filed complaints.

When I worked for the state of MA I took a number of in-service trainings on this, and though I didn't teach them I feel pretty comfortable with the material.

I can see where a personnel officer or a manager may need to step in here, but I don't see how the claim would hold up in a court of law.

I don't think the OP said it did. It can be handled in-house in some circumstances.

I just checked with someone here, and they said that he would definitely be written up over that here, and fired if anything else occurred.

.

But to me the bagels thing does seem passive-aggressive and sneaky.

When he spoke to the DJ he was like, "I was just trying to be NICE." :shrug:

Especially since you heard it and the way he said it made you pause.

I would LOVE to know the details!!! Just to know what was the possible truth.


on edit: A guy I fired once for something like this (it was his third warning) also said the "I was trying to be nice." When I said the young lady didn't want him to be nice, just professional, he got all pissed off and said it was HER fault for not "being friendly like she's supposed to be."

:sigh:

And, I'm betting the other women sat by her.

More information is needed, I think.

I doubt a legal claim would go through, as bringing bagels to work does not appear to be persistent or severe enough to constitute a hostile work environment. But much depends on the circumstances. "Hey, want a bagel?" is different than "Hey baby, I brought you and your friends some bagelly yumminess" or "Why oh why are you rejecting my love bagels?" or "are you sure you don't want a bagel? I brought them especially for you. wink wink." :)

I suspect that the bagels are only one part of a larger complaint. And perhaps the complaint is not a legal one. People can (and should) go to human resources to learn how to deal with issues like this. "Someone asked me for a date and I said no. He's bringing bagels and stuff and I want you to know I'm not comfortable. How do I make it clear that I'm not interested?" Perhaps she thinks accepting bagels would lead to an expectation of being personal friends or romantic. :shrug:

As to unwanted behavior, it depends on how many times bagels have been brought in, whether he's been rejected, and how the offer of bagels is conveyed.

says everything to me. Definitely suspicious. And even devious, considering that he probably KNEW that it would be unwelcome, so he brought treats for the other two women as well. Like you say, this is passive aggressive, and I've seen it often as well. It puts the woman in the position of having to be cordial to this person, if maintaining her own professionalism, who is now showing MORE attention to her after she had turned him down. That's really creepy and manipulative, and I agree that it is very likely to be sexual harassment.

context is everything in these situations.

asking people out on dates can be very dicey. in most offices, it is frowned upon and considered inappropriate, especially in multinational corporation settings.

crossing that line without at least having something on the targeted employee is idiocy.

I read the OP and thought, yeah, I don't know why, but it is sexual harassment, or bordering on it.

So thanks for the passive agressive comment.

Then I'd say it's definitely not sexual harassment.

In any case, I agree with the prevailing sentiment that we have too little information, and it's too one-sided, for us to reach a reasoned conclusion.

But it strikes me as a bit odd that he only started bringing doughnuts and bagels after she'd turned him down. If the story is true as stated, it doesn't sound like sexual harassment to me, but it does seem like a potential personnel issue that would reasonably be brought to the attention of management.

that's how he served them.

:spank:

Nothing in his behavior (or at least the behavior that he has described) would be legally considered sexual harassment.


Here is SC:

http://www.sc.edu/eop/sexharassment.html



Here is what the federal government has to say:

http://www.eeoc.gov/types/sexual_harassment.html

And, what he did is considered sexual harassment under both USC and Federal law.


I'm not snarking on you, mI promise! You're a poster I really like. I've just seen many, many women intimidated by garbage like this, and have seen some of it turn into workplace stalking. It's especially creepy now because of the Tech shooter's stalking of female students. ANY unwanted attention is illegal in the workplace -- he asked for a date, she said no, he starts bring her food -- which he had never done before.

I'm not seeing it. Could you give a citation from either link indicating that his behavior qualifies as sexual harassment?

I'm likewise not trying to be snarky; I'd just like to understand where you're coming from.

(A date implies an interest beyond friendship.)

ie attention she had told him she didn't want. She apparently felt intimidated enough to report him. Without knowing all of the facts, I can't say if it was a fireable offense. Probably not. He needed to be warned, probably written up, and sent to sensitivity training. His side alone is enough to incriminate him.

I was reading the donuts/bagels as a no-hard-feelings gesture, but I can see where it could be construed as unwanted further attention.

"Intimidated" is hard to gauge, because it might simply be the case that she was (understandably) just annoyed. I mean, I work with a woman who reported a cubemate's habit of playing the radio too loud; she wasn't intimidated, but she was annoyed.

I'm also a little uncomfortable with a written warning, if it's something that would go in his file and possibly harm future advancement. A verbal warning (with a record of same), coupled with the sensitivity training, might be sufficient for a first offense.


Not to downplay the whole issue, by any means! I've known women and a few men who were put in horribly uncomfortable situations by the unwanted attentions of coworkers.

The "verbal warning" was her saying "No!" Then, he proceeded to bring her stuff every day for two weeks until she complained. Once? As an HR person I would probably let it slide. But, doing it for ten days is way over the line.

Okay, that definitely crosses the border into "creepy overkill."

From an HR standpoint, though, it's hard to take her "no" as the verbal warning, because unfortunately it's instant he-said/she-said.

But two weeks? Geez, buddy, get a life.

and did the cream cheese come already on the bagels?

might have been putting the two together in sexually provocative ways? :shrug:

edited because i misread the op duh

the women accepted the food or not. If they said "fuck off, Steve, we don't want any" or a more polite variation, then I could MAYBE see the complaint. If they said "oh, gee, thanks, yum" then they have absolutely nothing to say.

And that's assuming this is all there is to the story

As I started up thread, I've taught courses on this, and he's probably guilty of it. I would have counseled him and warned him.

Many women do not like a confrontation -- many are taught NOT to do that, and probably thought it was easier on them and the office just to let it go. Continued behavior like this would have, personally, creeped me out... especially if I had said no to the guy about a date.


Their acceptance of the coffee and bagels doesn't give certain behavior of his a pass (no pun intended!).

but he was told no when approaching re: a date (I assume). That doesn't mean that he should flee the country or anything. It is still possible to be friends (or THINK you are friends) after being rebuffed.

I know some guys who don't understand when creepy is creepy, and honestly don't understand when a girl gets freaked out. On the other hand, my sister is currently being stalked by her obsessive ex-boyfriend, so it clearly is reality.

So, I think it's one of two things. Either he is sexually harassing them, though in an interestingly passive way (says the psych major :)) or he really thought he was being friendly (maybe even as an apology for asking? though that seems unlikely), and this was all a misunderstanding.

I just don't want to condemn someone just because he was accused; without further info, I really couldn't say which it was :shrug:

edit: and that's a good point about the whole "women are taught to avoid confrontation" thing. I was just reading an article about that the other day, I should have recalled it.

:eyes:

As I've said, some guys are just clueless. It's when they continue to be clueless that I start writing "clueless"!

Anyway, thanks.

He overstepped. As I've said several times in this thread, if he didn't do anything worse than what he admitted to, he should have been written up and warned, and probably sent to sensitivity training.

(as I stated to another poster, I'm just debating with you, not being snarky!)

I guess things are different in the business world :shrug:

But I've been good friends with females that I've asked out having been turned down, so I guess I just don't see the automatic reaction of sexual harassment.

Though, thinking about it, everyday for 2 WEEKS I think you said? That IS a bit odd. Ok, quite a bit odd. Adding in that, I'm starting to see it. If he did it once or twice, no biggie, but that changes thing.

Just my opinion.

I find his "generosity" highly suspect. Bringing in bagels as a gift for the girls once a week - that's being nice. Doing the same thing every day after a social rejection is passive aggressive and bordering on harassment (but not sexual).

He's an asshole.

assholes would try to get some kind of 'revenge'

with breakfast treats and coffee for her office. Which is inappropriate and would probably qualify as harassment, but hardly qualifies as revenge the way that spreading a nasty rumor or scratching some paint off her car would. Bringing stuff is usually a nice thing to do, it just is weird when it seems to be done for transparent motives.

THat's considered unwanted attention. She had told him the only attention she wanted from him was on a professional level. He refused to accept that, and thus took a passive-aggressive route to keep bothering her in -- what he thought -- was a "socially acceptable" way.

So, I consider he was very much, 'I'll show you!" with his sudden gifts and unwanted attention.

I do recognize you think this is harassment! Not being a bword, just debating, Scout's honor.

It's a matter of labelling. But when I hear asshole and revenge, I think of harsher actions than trying to suck up. Sucking up is no substitute for wrath!

But it's my opinion that today's tool is potentially tomorrow's asshole.

In this case, I think that would have happened.

Your opinion: she said no, and he started bringing her coffee and bagels every morning for two weeks... why? To get her to break and "be nice"? That's what I suspect. It apparently backfired. What's your opinion?

"See what a nice guy I am bringing these treats for everyone (*you*)? See how likeable I am? Don't you feel like a putz for rejecting me? You can feel better about yourself by liking me. The bonus is that if you turn down this *gift* you'll look like a bitch. Just kidding! C'mon, you like me but you won't admit it. I'll be soooo nice until you 'fess up."

Some men equate being "friendly" with being "friends," and they think being "friends" means "I secretly love you but am afraid to tell you so it's up to you to chase me, Tarzan." I know the kind. Makes me want to tie their weiners in a knot that will take twenty years to untie. Hopefully they'll grow up by then.

but based just on the information i read in the original post, I don't see sexual harassment.

I think some people are maybe...possibly...perhaps, just a liiiiiiiiiiitttle too sensitive sometimes. I know some of you are going to view that statement as trivializing a serious issue, but, you have to admit, there are instances where people claim harassment inappropriately or prematurely. It does happen.

and schools. And, to be blunt, statements like that make many girls and women hesitant to say anything to stop unwanted attention.

This would be considered sexual harassment by any responsible company.

I'd want anyone to feel they can and should seek help if they feel they are being harassed. But, certainly, you must agree, it does happen. Not every claim of harassment is actually harassment. You automatically assumed this guy's intent was malicious and I think that's wrong, especially given the information we have.

:rofl:

Is it sexual harassment? I think it would depend on his motivation...which is something that isn't clear and possibly wouldn't be, even with all sides of the story. It's definitely harassment of some sort though. If I were one of the other two AAs, I'd probably feel bothered by it more than thankful.

Once might be nice*, 10 times in two weeks isn't nice. It's obsessive, an overtly aggressive act. Kind of a mixed message to it. "I'm going to bring you coffee and bagels until you like me, because you WILL like me."

*-depending on context...If you had always brought coffee on Thursday for the entire office and continued to do so. That seems harmless.

the construal of the deposition and subsequent testimony on the part of the admin. assts. (i think there were 3 or 4 total) would carry a lot of weight.

the onus is on the harasser to prove otherwise. witness testimony, credible documentation, and other evidence proferred on behalf of the victim is more readily believed nowadays.

Isn't the standard that someone has to ask him to stop? and if he doesn't, then it constitutes harassment?

He isn't required to read their minds, is he?

She turned him down for a date, and THEN he started approaching her every morning. He doesn't need to read anyone's mind -- he was told, "No." The most he should have done after that is only spoken to her when he needed to, and smile pleasantly at her.

her pay attention to him! Definite creepy, stalker-ish behavior - deserving of reprimand and future action if it doesn't stop.

And, he's doing it in a very passive-aggressive, sneaky way. "Hey, I'm just being nice! God, why are you being so sensitive??? Can't a guy just be nice without being accused of harassing someone"

intent on the part of the harasser is irrelevant.

what makes this harassment is the attempt at interaction and personal knowledge that is inappropriate in the workplace. the harasser attempted to change the nature of their workplace relationship from the professional and collegial to one that is personal and private (and where the victim has every expectation of privacy). the sexual intent is understood and is the primary motivation for this behavior on the part of the harasser.

"the sexual intent is understood and is the primary motivation for this behavior on the part of the harasser."

I thought it had to be more blatant than this, and that the harass-ee had to tell the harasser to stop with the bagels before it constituted harassment, when the harasser failed to do so.

I understand what you are saying about the attempt to change the nature of the relationship, it just seems like a grayer area to me.

it was harassment from his asking her on a date.

asking her on a date is harassment, or approaching her again after she turned him down is harassment?

and her testimony (and that of the other people) regarding a pattern of questionable behavior would help in a case.

sometimes when enough people tell a lie, or use fabricated evidence a court will believe it too.

other times, the company will arbitrate and pay off the person, fire someone else, and develop a paper trail for later termination for everyone else concerned.

there is no way of really knowing unless the details and history are there to peruse.

i'm speaking in generalities.

without the ask-ee becoming accused of sexual harassment?

it's tricky. lateral power relationships are sometimes easier and escape notice.

i've done it before.

i guess you have to have a good feel for people before you embark on a project like that.

the risks outweigh the benefits in this scenario though.

Approaching her with the bagels and coffee? DEFINITELY is.

Especially if they are in a subordinate position. Whether or not he actually sexually harassed anyone is hard to tell from this story but a good rule of thumb is not to date anyone you work with. Or to even ask them out. Of course, it depends on how large the workplace is and how closely you work with this person. But it just strikes me as a bad idea.

or like mah daddy used ta sah-ay

don't sh*t where ya eat!!!

in today's work atmosphere. one must be totally robotic. personality alone is enough to get one fired.

how was this guy supposed to know she did not want to go out with him unitl he asked her?

and then, so what, he bought bagels...for more than one person after the fact...

and if every guy gave up on the girl of his dreams cos she turned him down the first time, i wonder how many relationships would never be?

write-ups in my opinion are passive/aggressive on the part of management especially when applied quickly and without counseling before hand.


sheesh...i don't care if i ever eat another bagel after reading this thread, the HORRORS

are frowned upon.

you get moments of reprieve between yourself and your coworkers, but there is always someone there reading between the lines.

we were chatting in the lunchroom about internet policy (surveillance) and i joked that there were cameras in the a/c vents.

it ended up on a personnel action report when me and another broker got into a shouting match about a prospect. it was very loud.

they had security escort us from the building and we were suspended for the remainder of the week.

when i got back monday, management had these meetings about what happened with each of us individually and then together with management.

in the one-on-one meeting, they brought up the joke about the cameras.

and my pattern of tardiness and showing up to work still drunk.

and in between the lines is a VERY BIG PLACE :wow:

But showing up late and drunk? What the hell is wrong with that? Those bastards think they own us...

:)

just because i'd sleep it off in 10 minutes chunks in vacant conference rooms and bathroom stalls helped the matter.

It's getting pretty ridiculous out there. Lord, I remember when I first entered the worlkforce. Sexual harassment was just part of the deal. Glad it's not like that now, but things seem to be leaning too far the other way.

(plus, the ladies were pissed because he sabotaged their diets, and they each gained two pounds.:evilgrin:)
The upward trend in the number of overweight women is caused, on average, by an imbalance of only 100 extra calories per day. Eliminating this 100-calorie imbalance by eating a bit less and getting a bit more physical activity each day may hold the line on weight gain for many women.
'Big Boy Bagels' can contain 500 calories each OR more! Small bagels generally contain about 150 calories and are a dieter's dream. A regular-sized bagel (about 3 inches in diameter) contains about 350 calories.
Bagels are a high-energy food due to their complex carbohydrates - equal to most power bars!
http://www.dietbites.com/Calories-In-Bagels.html

Look dude, if she's rejected you, leave the coffee and bagels in the common room for everyone to grab.
I bet if she had the impression he was buying bagels and coffee just for her (and not the other two) it may have creeped her out *shrug* Actually I would just be creeped out being asked for a date at work, LOL.

never mind reread op