I also vote for a military draft right now.

I'm pissed off tonight and am tired of all the hand-wringing and moaning. LET'S DO SOMETHING CONGRESS!!!!

Since I'm a member of the Viet Nam generation - I know that the draft was the instigator in getting people out and into the streets to voice their opposition to the Administration. Guess I'm nostalgic for the 'good ole days'.

These damned Bush people need to have it shoved down their throats.

http://www.slate.com/id/2097365/

Cheney's unself-consciousness about this is (or at least was) so pronounced that in 1989 he told George C. Wilson of the Washington Post, "I had other priorities in the '60s than military service."

Imagine the carnage that would ensue if we gave the * Administration all the warm bodies they wanted.

choose otherwise.

...the government counts on blind obedience. If it doesn't pay well, it gets stigmatized as an option for the lower classes.

We demand much of our troops, even in peacetime. I think service ought to stay volunteer, and ought to pay commensurate with the 24/7 dedication required of troops.

registered, 19 or 20 years old?

If so, I applaud your position!

:thumbsup: :applause: :yourock:

the oil crisis of the 70's, she isn't draft material, nor does she deserve applause

What do you think I am suggesting the draft be reinstated for? Since you were probably NOT HERE or recognize what my generation went through (or perhaps care since it is old news and doesn't affect you?) - perhaps you don't understand that the only way to get people out into the streets and marching against this god-damned Administration (who, themselves avoided the draft) is to force them into inclusion into this god-damned offensive war.

If you are a part of the 60's generation - perhaps you have forgotten?

And, if you did not take part in the oil embargo that affected this nation in the 70's - you might not understand as well the sacrifice that we all were asked to make? Have you ever been in either situation? Until you are, then I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

What are you really being asked to sacrifice at this time? If you or one of your loved ones are now participating in actively serving your country in uniform - I'd like to understand just why you resent what I am saying?

to play politics.



^That is how I feel about using a draft to end the war. If the leaders of this country weren't so pathetic they would be putting an end to this madness without such games.

uproar by the American voters. Like in the last election? What I'm advocating is a serious debate on the House floor and Senate regarding enactment of the draft. That's when the response will begin. Now, all I see is that life is going on as 'normal' - just as the White House wants.

and voting for the draft.

If you vote for the draft, the bottom line is you're playing games with my life. Ask me how I feel about that.

What we've learned from the Viet Nam debacle will definitely help to speed along the cessation of this illegal war. Right now - without any kind of sacrifice being asked of the American people - the current Administration is really not feeling much of a push from the general public. They need to hear it - LOUD AND CLEAR. I also have a daughter who is draft age. Certainly I do not want her to go to Iraq - but I'm ready to call the bluff of the WH.

NEVER.

I'm sick and tired of seeing a lot of 'talk' and no action. This is the thing that the Rove White House doesn't want - American involvement in any way. The only way to get mainstream America's attention is if it truly affects their family!!!

As a member of the 60's - I can truly say - BEEN THERE - DONE THAT!!!

It means we're both getting grey.
:rofl:

It's surprising to hear someone from that era in favor of the draft. I didn't care for it when I got drafted (unlike Cheney, I had "nothing better to do" :) )

You got sons of draft age? Or (it's been a long time since induction) grandsons of draft age? Do you really want to see guys pulled out of their jobs, away from family, away from mortgage payments, just to make a point with a president who won't listen anyway?

Clean out the burbs first, that will get people off their sorry asses.

yup - I'm all about that.

:eyes:

I'm honestly shocked by how eager some people seem to be for a draft. Even more young people would be sent over there, many of whom are already against the war (and part of the DU community), to fight/die/be traumatized for something nobody believes in. Meanwhile, the grey-hairs who actually call the shots remain home, and Bush has a whole new stock of soldiers with which to carry out his crusade. He doesn't listen to Congress now, and he certainly won't after the war machine is fed fresh blood.

What does this accomplish, exactly? What crystal ball has revealed this to be the magic cure for all of our ills, rather than something which would backfire horribly? After Vietnam and the consequences it had for so many, I'd think you would know the bad side of drafting people into unnecessary wars.

Finally, you'd only be eager for the draft if you want the Democrats to lose the Congress and the presidency. A draft cannot be initiated without the total approval of Congress, which we currently control. People would not understand the strategy behind such a move. They would remember it for a long time, and the Republicans would have all the ammo they need.

and once W sees that, he'll be so mad that he'll spontaneously combust. Then Ghandi will come back to life and we'll all shut down the factories and become basket weavers, and all the fantasies of aging hippies will be fulfilled.

How old are you? I'm 57 - going on 58 and have lost high school friends in Viet Nam. This is de ja vu all over again. Until each individual household in this country is affected - there is no national protest - words of anger - marches on the WH - NOTHING. This is what gives the Rove Administration it's power. Keep the sheep happily grazing and off the streets. Keep the aheep shopping. Keep them happily purchasing their SUV's and driving off into oblivion. What are you afraid of? That you might be called up? I'm sure that it would light a fire under those who love you to get out and make their voices heard. When there is a serious debate on the floor of the House and Senate regarding a draft - there will be attention paid and the WH will hear a roar from the public.
Can you tell me what's happening now?

Your plan cand be described of Cargo-cultism or a perverse form of Field of Dreams.

"If you build a national nightmare they will come" is not a responsible way to decide national policy. They say those who learned from history are doomed to repeat it, when the hell did this become those who experienced history are determined to recreate it.

I'm assuming that you might be in the draftable age limit and are afraid it might affect you? Would your loved ones get out into the streets and do something to protect you? Would people you know contact their reps and senators on a daily basis? What would happen? Would you go quietly into 'that good night'? I'm sorry to say that my idea 'sucks ass' ... is that a quote from your present generation? Are you understanding at all my position? When it really does affect you personally and your family personally - will your voices be heard at the WH level?

off their sorry asses and actually pushing this God-damned Administration to do ANYTHING AT ALL - is when it touches them personally. Now, without a draft - (which is what the WH and Karl Rove wants - aside from not showing the bloody body count and coffins coming home on the MSM) - people go about their day-to-day activities as if we aren't at war anywhere on this planet. When a draft is enacted - this God-Damned atrocity of a war is OVER!!

The draft ended BEFORE the Vietnam war ended for political reasons, but the war ran on. The only questionable good that happened to this dumb draftee was that the paranoid Nixon announced that dumb draftees would no longer be ordered to Vietnam. We had been trained for jungle warfare and became dead weight and useless to the military after Nixon's surprise announcement. They should have simply sent us home, post haste.

I am still angry that I was not cut loose when the draft ended. I detest the draft and equate it to involuntary servitude. I have severe anger issues that have been brewing for over thirty years.

have been discharged at that time. What did they do with you and those who were serving with you? Were you Army/Marines? I'm assuming that you were in one of those two branches. Can you understand what it is that I'm saying - that without any kind of sacrifice being asked by these asswipes - the longer this shit is going to go on. It amazes me to hear the cries of "Not Me, Not Me" by this younger generation - they just don't get it at all.

I have no idea why, but they did a heavy background investigation on me and loaded me up with military security clearances that included a Top Secret Cosmic NATO, Top Secret Crypto clearance and stuck me in charge of a nuclear surety program designed to keep tabs on the nutty (but clever) people training with our nuclear toys. It was a very intense surreal period of my life that I'm happy to report is behind me; I felt like I was an Inmate guarding the nut house, but we were receivers of the 'football', and I took that task VERY seriously.

On one level I can understand what you are trying to say with regards to the draft but a big part of me still has huge reservations about the draft plus I am a concerned father of twelve-year-old son. Perhaps Col David Hackworth's thoughts can shed some light on my dilemma:

On draftees

-"Even when they pissed me off, I had to admit there was something I liked about the draftees who didn't want to be there and made no bones about it. I like draftees in general, even with the attendant problems. Historically draftees have kept the military on the straight and narrow. By calling a spade a spade, they keep it clean. Without their "careers" to think about, they can't be easily bullied or intimidated as Regulars; their presence prevents the elitism that otherwise might allow a Regular army to become isolated from the values of the country it serves. Draftees are not concerned for the reputation of their employer, the Army (in Vietnam they happily blew the whistle an everything from phony valor awards to the secret bombings of Laos and Cambodia); a draftee, citizens' army, so much a part of the history of America, is an essential part of a healthy democracy, one in which everyone pays the price Of admission."

I agree with you - I don't want any more blood shed in this illegal war. It pisses me off royally that those in charge are chickenhawks and never had the nerve to either serve their country or feel that they are too good to serve in uniform. Therefore, to sacrifice the children of others isn't an unpleasant business. To sacrifice those who signed up for the National Guard isn't an unpleasant business. To call for a draft and be responsible, then, to answer to the will of the people is not something they readily want to do.
Unfortunately, it feels like to me that there are those here of the younger generation who feel that they are above everyone else and entitled to go about their merry lives living in this country without having to sacrifice anything. It's much easier to spout off when they know that they will never have to worry about being called up.
I lost a friend in Viet Nam. Michael White. He was a very sweet, kind nondescript boy. It saddens me that he never lived to see 20. It saddens me immensely that those in power now are playing the game of not involving the American people at a gut level in order to stave off massive outcries about this illegal war of theirs and their profiteering from it. I hope that those in Congress will call them on it. It is moving too slowly in my estimation. Of course, I'm salivating over impeachment and unending investigative committee hearings.
I'm just sick and tired of seeing most people going about their own business as if this country is not actively engaged in combat.
Thanks for your service. Glad you didn't have to see the fields of V.N.
I have another friend who suffers from some of the things he was forced to do as a draftee in Viet Nam. He's a good man and I'm grateful he made it home alive.

...and the thought of being forced into military service for the sake of Bush's war machine makes me want to retch.
What, exactly, would that solve? It would just give Bush more meat for the grinder. An invasion of Iran would be practically guaranteed, and a hell of a lot more young people would die. Many of them, like myself, DUers. Are you saying that's what you want?
You think that a draft is going to HURT Bush? He's not like Nixon. He won't back down. EVER.

People in the streets DID make a difference and the only way we get people in the streets is when a draft actually affects their families. Right now - what is? What are we being asked to suffer? NOTHING. I also have a daughter who is draft age. I want people in the streets - marching - NOW!!!!!!!!!

or anything.
He doesn't give a shit. Bush has said that he'll continue on the course he's on even if Laura and Barney are the only ones still supporting him. Translation? Bush won't listen to protests.
And as someone else pointed out...how is this going to bring immediate change? It certainly didn't in Vietnam...and in the meantime, while Bush continues to ignore protestors, even more people from my generation will die, at an even increased rate. As someone else said...we are people too, even though a lot of older people seem to have nothing but contempt for us.
Must be true if they're willing to shed our blood just to make a point.
Bush doesn't want a draft, and neither do the Republicans...but it won't stop Bush.

I'm of draft age, too. During Vietnam, the draft had been around since the mid-1960s (more like 1963) and it still took us a decade to get out. And let's remember that, if a draft is installed now, it's not going to be Bush who will get blamed for it--it'll be the Democrats, because Bush and the Republicans didn't draft anyone when they held all three branches. Enjoy a Republican White House for the next eight years.

forced out of Iraq - ask your parents.

how long do you think it will take to sufficiently build up a qualifed armed forces?

NO - I certainly don't want to see you or others that you know being swept up and shipped over to Iraq - but (and for the final time) until this hits each and every household in this country at it's utmost gut level - the WH is not hearing the uproar from the American people. I'm saying exactly what Charlie Rangle is saying - that until it comes to your own door - you aren't REALLY affected. Do you have a loved one serving in Iraq right now? I'm curious. I want them all home!

So quit peddling that crap

Of course, you can lie to me and tell me whatever you want. I went to a Democratic party meeting a couple of years ago and I remember a young woman saying something to the effect of "what good will it do to march in the streets?" - this after the Downing Street Memo came out. I looked at her and thought - you're right - why aren't people marching en masse over this - because it isn't hitting the majority personally. How different it is when you feel safe and secure and the outrage over this illegal war is talked about over coffee or at the water cooler. If your parents remember the Viet Nam days - ask them what it REALLY was like.
Ask them what kind of pressure was put upon Congress and the White House to get out of Viet Nam.
Also - ask why this current White House isn't proposing a draft and seem to be deadly afraid of it being bandied about.

concerns of others. All you do is spout bullshit and you don't deserve to be told anything except how wrong and idiotic your plan is

want to be a part of an active responsible debate. All you have done so far is to throw slander my way.
Hopefully if you feel this war is an illegal one, you are taking steps in contacting your Congressmen/women and are marching and protesting.

We shouldn't and there is no debating about that.

I don't mean to sound snarky, but I really want to know what you think a draft will do.

I have talked to my parents about it. My dad's response? "You'll be on a plane to Canada five minutes after those motherfuckers try to draft you."

(of which, by the way, I've heard rumors that Canada won't be as supportive in that as they were for the Viet Nam draft dodgers) - I would assume that they would be joining me in the streets and protesting very, very loudly to the WH. Bush, et al cannot hide behind those walls. Go back and ask your parents just what it really was like in 1968 - 1972. In the meantime, I hope you are making calls to your Representative to support Kucinich's articles of impeachment of the Veep. I will be calling again tomorrow and every day to mine to get on the bandwagon.

but lots of people hate George Bush right now, and I don't see that changing his strategy in Iraq at all.

Like I said, the Vietnam draft had been around since at least 1963, yet it didn't end until '73, and we didn't get out of the country until two years after THAT. Is it worthwhile to sacrifice my friends and me in 2007 for a war that won't end until 2020? Just because there's a draft doesn't mean that there's a policy change.

I'm sorry, but the people of my generation aren't political pawns. Believe it or not, beyond MySpace and Facebook and cellphones, we're human beings. And it sucks to know that our elders are willing to throw us under the bus and watch us die in an unwinnable war just to make a political statement.

opinion right now. Since you did not live through the 60's and the marches - perhaps you don't understand that the majority of us have definitely learned from the past. I know, I know - the Bush people certainly haven't - but how many of them were actually affected by Viet Nam? As far as I can tell - not many of them served their country - so they personally cannot relate. Those who did serve will not let it go like it went in the late 60's and early 70's. I feel that when it definitely comes to a point where each and every home in this country would be affected by a military draft - then you'll see the hordes coming out and forcing these asswipes out of office and out of Iraq. Why do you think this administration avoids the draft being an issue now and re-using servicemen and women over and over in Iraq? They FEAR A DRAFT.

It didn't in Vietnam, and I don't know why Iraq would be any different.

V.N. catastrophe that will not repeat that kind of time-frame. You have to remember that this Administration tried to tie Iraq to 9/11/01. Entirely different from the Tonkin Incident. The fact that this current Administration refuses to endorse a draft should be a telling statement on the effect of what the draft had upon the American people in the 60's/70's.

it will be the Democrats that initiate it, because the Republicans never will. They're still determined to smile despite all the troop shortages and say that everything is hunky-dory. And if the Democrats do reinstate the draft, you can bet that the Republican propaganda machine will crank into high gear shrilling that "Democrats are going to send your children to war!" That Democrats want to escalate action, etc. Democrats will be seen as the warmongers, while George Bush suddenly looks like a moderate. Untrue? Absolutely. But we live in an age of doublespeak, where bin Laden = Saddam Hussein, where Afghanistan = Iraq, where 9/11 = WMD in Iraq.

if you don't have one already.

I'm too old for the draft. I have 2 kids in their 20's & I convinced them both to get passports last year.

f'd-up Administration. The next step is nation-wide in the street protests. That doesn't seem to be happening right now due to the fact that no one feels vulnerable.
Good on you in having your kids get their passports.

:hi:

We must have a draft... of all the middle-aged Republicans in Congress.

I have three kids who are potential cannon fodder. NO WAY, will I sacrifice them for Chickenhawks Bush, Cheney and their war profiteer cronies!!!

My age: 20
Sex: Male
Registered for selective service: yes

Bush is blind. More so than Nixon. Nixon, mind you, who was so paranoid he had to wiretap the headquarters of the opposing party in an election year he had no hope of losing. Hundreds of thousands of people in the streets didn't stop this war from beginning. Millions of people in the streets won't bring this war to an end as long as Bush (or nearly any Republican) is president. As has been said above, the president does not reinstate the draft. Congress would do that. Congress, controlled by the Democrats. And you can bet that the spinmeisters will make it seem (rightly or not) that the draft was a Democratic machination. And we can all sit back and watch as millions of people march down the streets...and into the polling booths in November '08 to send the Republicans right back into power.

A draft would give Bush all the cannon fodder he needs for this war and the next, and no matter the protests, he will not listen. Don't use our lives to play political games.

to lose our lives, and guarantee the Republicans win the White House in '08.
And it won't stop Bush, either.