A conversation I heard outside my door a few minutes ago...

:yoiks: Two twenty-year-old-ish students were standing in the hallway not far from my door just a few minutes ago. I couldn't help but hear what they were talking about.

First student: "You gonna see Jeff tonight?"

Second student: "Yeah. We're not gonna eat dinner, though. I'm trying to lose five pounds."

First student: "What are you talking about? You're already underweight."

Second student: "I know, but Jeff likes slender women."

First student: "What the hell, Janie??? Why would you starve yourself?"

Second student: "I don't want to lose him."

First student: "That's bullshit. No guy is worth that."

Second student: "But I love him. He likes the way models look, and he wants me to look like that."

First student: "That's not love. That's incredibly shallow."

Second student: Starts crying. "I know, but what would I do if we broke up?"

First student: "You'd stand on your own two feet. C'mon---we're going upstairs to the counseling center."

And they walked by and went upstairs. :applause:

Just as they went by, I was heading into the hallway to tell them in a compassionate way that I couldn't help overhearing their conversation and suggest they go to the counseling center. I didn't get a chance, but they headed in the right direction. :) I really hate that young women still feel the need to starve themselves to be attractive, and I hate it even more that she thought so little of herself that she felt she had to in order to keep a guy. :grr: The other student has her act together. :)

It's also upsetting to know that media images (especially the heroin-chic models in beauty magazines) still have such a hold on attitudes and body image. :( It tells me that we still have a long way to go to dispel those notions. Women come in all shapes and sizes, and it's about making the most of what you have, not what you've been led to believe you SHOULD have. :)

And as for "Jeff," somebody hold him while I kick the shit out of him. :grr: :nuke:

:hi: :patriot: :rofl: But it's true.

I was thinking the exact same thing. Too bad NewWaveChick didn't get it on tape. Life imitating art. :rofl:

that's a lesson that it takes some women (myself included) a very long time to learn

and yeah, that jeff guy does need to get his ass kicked

:hi: I learned that lesson later rather than sooner, but at least I learned when I did. :)

Jeff needs his ass kicked!

Jeff was not even there. :shrug:

an ass somewhere is going to get kicked. If you want to volunteer your ass thats fine.



and just in case it wasn't clear
:sarcasm:

No offense to younger people (I am 34); but it seems to be a trap so many of the 18-25 set fall into.
I was never like that. I am who I am. If I don't feel attractive; I do something; but that's to fit the idea of what I want to look like; not what the guy I am dating wants me to look like. If he doesn't like me the way I am; then we shouldn't be dating.

So glad she has a friend to talk some sense into her and get her the help she needs! It's just a matter of perspective ( and CONTROL! I'll go with you on the Jeff ass-kicking thing..)

:hi: Make changes only because YOU want to. :) Too many women learn that too late.

profession.

But what they don't realize is that attitude really IS everything. Of course one would expect this industry to have a certain "standard"; as it were; but in reality the customers (not always men!) are real people; who like ALL KINDS of shapes; sizes and kinds of ladies. The number one thing that my customers like is my confidence and the fact that I am secure in who I am. That is sexier than a great pair of fake boobs and a 24 inch waist any day.:D

:hi: I'm glad you're secure with yourself! :) It makes all the difference.

:( Low self-esteem is definitely in play there. Why else would they subject themselves to such assholes? :shrug:

..I once dated a guy who threatened to break up with me if I cut my hair short.
So, I immediately got it cut short...very short (I can always take a dare!).
He broke up with me. It all worked out for the best, though, really!

p.s., Unlike most women, I was more confident at 20 than 40!!

:hi: :D :hug: I'm glad you stood up for yourself. He definitely wasn't worth it... :) Confidence will take you far!

he followed through on his threat to break up with you... but, I'm glad things worked out for you.

..but he wasn't.

It didn't matter, back then, because there was a much more sincere, and caring, young man I started dating. That guy- the one who broke up with me- ended up becoming an alcoholic. The way I see it, it was the ultimate irony...he was such a control freak!

How the control-freak ex ended up an alcoholic.

My ex-wife tended to be very controlling & demanding much of the time... after we got divorced, I heard from her about a year later (so, nearly 2 years since she filed for divorce, since the divorce process took almost a year) and she had asked me if I had had something that she might have left behind when she moved out. But, then she commented that I shouldn't try to contact her anymore because her new boyfriend didn't like that she was married before and had forbid her from contacting me, and how he had all her email passwords & everything (implying that he would check her sent mail...)

It was like I was in bizarro-world.

Strange, isn't it, how an ex, sometimes, still wants to be part of the other person's life...just to be a presence? I've never understood that. I have not gone through a divorce, personally, but my parents did. On second thought, I guess I did go through one! Anyway, it seemed (at that time) like my mother constantly wanted to keep my father as a "plan B" or something. It was truly a bizarro-world. :hug:

Even though we were divorced, she probably felt I was kind of the Plan B guy for a while - i.e., somebody she could go back to if needed.

It was kind of odd, though. I could only imagine if I had ever tried to forbid her from talking to an old boyfriend - she would have ripped my head off, "How dare you forbid me from talking to somebody, I'll talk to whoever I damn well please!" Not that I even thought of doing that...

It was kind of odd, though. Until she met that guy, she had always told me about new guys she was dating and would call me to tell me what was going on in her life. Then, I stopped hearing from her for a while until I got that odd phone call.

She did exactly as I knew she would, she cut it short....which is exactly the way I liked it. I've always been attracted to headstrong women. :)

;-)

did you two stick together after she cut her hair short? And, did you tell her that you really wanted her to do that later?

She later figured out my "Brer Rabbit" strategy when I was a little TOO blatant in it's use. She laughed, but you could see the confusion reign over her face on future requests. It was sort of like that scene in "The Princess Bride":

MAN IN BLACK: All right: where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right and who is dead.
VIZZINI: But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you. Are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet, or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I'm not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool; you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
MAN IN BLACK:You've made your decision then7
VIZZINI: Not remotely. Because iocane comes from Australia, as everyone knows. And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me. So I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.
MAN IN BLACK: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
VIZZINI: Wait till I get going! Where was I?

She'd be thinking: "Is he saying that so I do the opposite, or he knows that I know that trick, so is he really speaking the truth? But he'd expect me to expect that..."

Vizzini: Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?

Man in Black: Yes

Vizzini: Morons

People are attracted to different things. Some men like skinny women, some like thick women, some like them in the middle. Some like tall women, some like short women, some like blue eyed women, some like brown eyed women.

We can't help what we're attracted to, and you're wrong to dislike "Jeff" simply because that's where his attractions lay. The problem was with the girl, who was so desperate for companionship that she was willing to transform herself into something she wasn't simply to meet this particular guys desires. Any reasonable woman would have simply blown him off and kept looking for some guy who liked THEM for who they were, exactly how they are. "Jeff" will either find a girl who fits his attractions, or get tired of being lonely and modify them to something a bit more attainable.

mail-order by the time he's 45.

Most straight men would love to come home to a supermodel every night and do things to her that would make a porn producer blush. It's the more animalistic part of male sexuality. Most of us are intelligent enough, however, to understand that the world just doesn't work that way. If Jeff hasn't made that connection yet, he's simply dooming himself to loneliness. It's kind of pathetic, but not something that deserves the threat of physical violence.

Young guys also (please see my disclaimer in the above post!) seem to fall into the trap at this age. They don't know how to get what they want, or to ask for it correctly. They find that many young women they encounter will transform themselves (because they don't know any better either!!); and for a while (sometimes forever) they get a thrill out of the control they have.
Of course this is not good for either party.
Either they learn, and move on to a healthier relationship; or they don't.

I believe our problem (myself and the others who agree with me on this thread) is that we were hoping that if SHE didn't know better; he would be a caring enough/decent enough person to know better himself; and just break up with her or explain to her about what he wanted/her lack of self esteem. Of course we are probably expecting too much from young people that really have not fully grown up yet.

He could have been more polite than to tell her he wanted her to look like a model; even if he did. It smacks of control. It was unecessary and rude and hurtful. And ultimately; DUMB.

that was her interpretation - "Jeff likes that (emaciated model look)."

Why try to make "second student" and her issues somehow Jeff's fault?

'Second student: "But I love him. He likes the way models look, and he wants me to look like that."'

from the fact that "he likes the way models look?" You don't know, and I don't know. What I'm curious about is why people are rushing to make this Jeff's fault. "Second student" has some issues regardless of Jeff's taste in physiques.

Guy and girl hook up somewhere. Girl realizes pretty quickly that she's not his type and that she's about to lose him. Girl tries to transform herself into something more of his liking to hold on to him.

And yes, it does happen the other way around too.

Again, unless he actually TOLD her "Lose weight or I'm leaving you", Jeff really doesn't deserve the hate being shoveled his way. If he did say that, I'd gladly hold him down while NWC kicked the shit out of him.

In this case that was Jeff. I have a hard time thinking that this is purely about looks but I have never really had a "type" so I don't tend to think that way. But if this kid is going to reject someone (their whole being -- soul, energy, love, etc.) over a few pounds then indeed there is something "wrong with Jeff."

I made the mistake of admitting that I've never dated a person who wasn't physically fit, and never would (I'm married, so it doesn't matter much now). Why? Am I a dick? No, I'm an active person (I climb mountains ferchristssake) and expected anyone I dated to be the same. I've always been attracted to outgoing, athletic women, and never had any interest in dating anyone who wasn't. I was attacked for my stance, but I still stand by it.

It's a lifestyle choice. I choose to be active, and an active person was a requirement to join me. If Jeff is into the whole wafy Hollywood wannabe scene, meeting his ideal is a requirement to date him. There is nothing wrong with that.

We all have the right to set our requirements as high or as low as we want. It's your life, and you can date whoever you want, according to whatever criteria interests you. You only date one eyed bagpipe players? Cool, you're choice. You only date women who can climb a 50 foot tree in under 90 seconds? Cool, your choice. Your personal tastes lean more towards women who aspire to the concentration camp waif look? Again, it's your choice. We can choose to be with whoever we want, based on whatever criteria you set.

Nobody is forced to live by anyone elses personal tastes. Jeff may have some misplaced priorities by your standards or mine, but it's his right to have those. If he wants model skinny, he'll either find it or he'll live a lonely life. His choice, his consequences.

It's really no different than all the people here who are adamant that they'd never date a Republican. They have a preference in their potential mates, and they enforce it as they see fit.

In the original post, the girl was already underweight. Being further underweight can get really unhealthy quickly, as in she could die.
There is something wrong with men who encourage underweight women to get thinner, especially by engaging in unhealthy behaviors.

if he thinks his girlfriend looks better if she starves herself than if she eats. I bet you she never eats in front of him, and a normal person would call someone on that. And I will also bet you that he's said something to her in the past along the lines of "aren't you eating too much?" and that has scared her into thinking she'll lose him unless she's thin as a rail.

Better to lose a boyfriend that to starve yourself to death. Horray for the girl's friend for taking care of her. Too bad the parents aren't as observant.

And I will stand in line to give Jeff a good swift kick . . . . :grr:

Confessions of a Matchmaker?

They had a guy on the first night. 380 pounds. I mean, we're talking BIG GUY. And when she asked him what kind of women he liked, he had the nerve to say "slender ones"-- that he didn't like the "full figured" types.

The head lady-- I wanted to HUG her. She asked him why guys like him were considered BIG GUYS, but larger women were considered FAT. She told him how prejudiced it was, and that he needed to expand his options, because he wasn't Mr. Universe anymore either.

She set him up with a very sweet lady who had a little padding; they were both trying to lose weight. They hit it off and started mall walking on their dates. I'm glad she set the guy straight.

just thought i would share that.

:blush:

Well, we know who started all that, and it wasn't you. Thanks. :hug:

out what a hypocrite he was being. What I really liked was that he listened to her, and was open to not only watching what he ate, to working on losing weight, but also to her comments on HOW he was eating. (It totally grossed me out to watch him eat.)

And I especially liked it that he was open to meeting the woman with "a little padding." I got the feeling that even if they didn't end up in a romantic relationship, they could be very good friends with each other.

I think he REALLY helped himself by NOT ordering long, drippy pasta on the real date! It was SO GROSS!

Yeah, it was nice that he actually took the advice. Some guys would have just gone ahead and done what they wanted and blew it.

It made me laugh that the show takes place in Buffalo, and I just got back from my first visit there a couple weeks ago. Rudest airport I've ever been to!

usually the pickiest. I wonder how that's working out for most of them?

but I'm sure it happens every day. Last week, there were recent pics of Renee Zellweger going around and she looked positively emaciated. Lots of folks here disagreed and said she looked normal for a small-framed woman. I don't profess to be a health expert, but if you could gouge your eye out with someone's collarbone and/or backbones, isn't that a little extreme?

As for "Jeff" may I ask the ladies here why y'all date men like that? Specifically, how is it that some of you can recognize that you're dating a grade-A fuckwit but still "love" him? Back before I accepted my gay-ness, I was the dreaded "friend." You know how it goes... "Jeff is SO mean to me... I wish he was more like you. I want to date someone like you. NOT you- just someone LIKE you...." Sheesh, that used to piss me off!

I'll never understand that mentality either. It's ridiculous. :(

And I immediately thought "Renee Zellweger" when I saw the young woman in question. :yoiks: Very sad indeed.

Though at the time, it really felt like it! At one point, I permanently lost one such friend as her boyfriend was physically abusing her. She called me in fear for her life one night, so I rounded up some friends that happened to not like her boyfriend (which was tellingly easy) and we went over and physically removed him from her apartment (and I think a few of his teeth might have been collateral damage). Well, the next day she had "a good talk" with him and they were back together, and I was a violent jerk for interfering. "Fine, " I said. "Do whatever you think is right, but don't involve me again. Call the police or the battered womens' shelter. I suggest putting them on speed-dial."

Did he actually tell this young woman that he wants her to be thin like some super-model? If so, then the guy needs his ass kicked.

However, were Jeff and this young woman watching TV or a movie together, or reading a magazine, and he commented, "Wow, that super-model is hot!" and she just assumed that Jeff wanted her to look like that? I know plenty of times where women assume their boyfriends want them to look like a super-model, or playboy playmate, when the boyfriend is perfectly happy with how their girlfriend looks. Or, more likely, Jeff & this young woman were hanging out together watching something and she would ask him, "Do you find her attractive?" and because he said, "Yes" she might think Jeff wants her to look like that.

If her self-esteem is low enough that she is afraid Jeff might dump her if she won't lose 5 pounds, then she might be the type that believes Jeff wants a certain type based on his commenting about a certain actress or super-model.

If he never suggested to his girlfriend that he expected her to look like a supermodel, then he probably isn't at the heart of the problem.

for example, my wife is perfect in my opinion, and I know it's not just me that feels that way because she gets a lot of compliments and even more not-so-complimentary "compliments" if you know what I mean. I tell her every day that she looks wonderful and is beautiful, and also other non-physical things I love about her.

And it drives me crazy sometimes, but she hates the way she looks. As someone who grew up chunky, got really skinny in college, and is now in between, I am very sympathetic to how she feels, to want to shed a couple of pounds or get in better shape or what have you. And I know she often is attracted to skinny people, so it's understandable, AND even more importantly, it's her body: if she wants to lose weight, that's her deal.

Where it sucks though is that I have noticed she is absolutely unforgiving to herself on things where she would give someone else a little benefit of the doubt. In other words, friends of hers who are bigger than she is are "not fat" but she calls herself a "cow" sometimes. It really saddens me. Like I said, I can relate to the desire to improve one's physical fitness or appearance, but it's scary too. I also know that perfectionism and eating disorders can often go hand in hand, and sometimes it's hard to separate the two.

Of course, if the person in question is not a friend, she is a bit less than forgiving, but that's another story all together. Sadly she has occasionally said things about my weight - I am on the upper edge of what is considered optimum weight for my height/build, but have been so fairly consistently since we've known each other. I've tried to lose a couple of pounds - both for her and for me - but it seldom stays off, and frankly I do it more for her than for me, and that bothers me sometimes too.

But anyway, back to the OP, there is a chance that Jeff is not the problem with her weight, especially if she is already thin. As someone who lost a lot of weight once, I did not realize how skinny I was for a long time because (a) it happens to you over time and (b) I was too hung up on the details to notice the big picture, if you know what I mean.

I should kick your freakin ass!!!!!


(just kidding ;))

:eyes:

:P

S1 should have just hauled S2 to the nearest bar and got shit-faced drunk. That's how we handled this sort of thing when I was in college. Jeff would have been reduced to a bad cartoon. Counselor, schmounselor.
:rofl:

S1: "You'd stand on your own two feet. C'mon---we're going upstairs to the counseling center."
There's something oxymoronic about "Take charge of your life - obey me".

:eyes:

but then we were discussing 20-year-old college students, so ...
:rofl:

Back in "my" day, I don't think colleges had counselors. At least none that could be trusted. Counselors were only visited on threat of expulsion, and then the only goal from counseling was "how do I get off the college's shit list?" Or maybe visited to enlist help in getting into classes that were full.

I understand that things are different now. Students are more trusting of college authority. Maybe.

If your ribs are showing through your skin, you're not eating enough. Have a cheeseburger and fries, already. I promise I'll love you just as much as before.

:loveya:

I mean, I'm all for 'ladies first', but I gotta tell you, I can't STAND guys like Jeff, or the women who claim to love them, for that matter. In the course of my job, I see dozens of women being treated through the YWCA Battered Women's program. I can't tell you how many times I've heard the excuse "But I LOVE him!" :grr::mad:

Plus, most guys I know DON'T like the stick-thin heroin chic models. We like women that are fun to hold, 'cause they've got something to grab onto. B-) That emaciated look is just NOT sexy.

The fact that her friend was taking her to get counselling was encouraging. There is that, anyway. Let's hope it helps her get out of that abusive relationship.

evolved past women defining their self worth by whether they have a significant other,

Exactly what occurred to me. Damn.