Well-respected books/movies that could be readily seen as sexist/misogynistic?

(I don't really condemn anything simply because it can be construed as sexist, as artistic quality can transcend biases, but I think it's a fun topic. I'll explain the first one.)

One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Every character's problems stem in some or large part from a woman. Harding? His wife, Ratched. Bibbit? His momma, Ratched (in cahoots!). Chief? His dad's wife. And who is seen as the embodiment of the Combine in all its glory? Ratched. How do you defeat it? By sexualizing it, or having sex with it, in McMurphy's view.

MASH (all versions--though no one has probably ever seen AfterMASH, so who knows?)

Almost any and all T S Eliot poems (guy was a douchebag in many other ways, but wrote some neat stuff)

Most early African cinema, especially Sembène.

Now you go! :D And make sure to argue.

It's equally fascinated and horrified by female sexuality, which unfettered, is the cause of everyone's downfall, including Lulu's. But it's a stunningly beautiful, exquisitely sexy movie.

:dunce:

:evilgrin:

lost

but I love the guy.

The Bible ! Sexist/misogynistic to the MAX!

The story focuses mainly on the adventures of Odysseus, though as Margaret Atwood points out in her recent interpretation, he could easily have been making them up! And rather than looking at what Penelope went through when raising Telemachus on her own, and dealing with all those suitors ... the story starts when Telemachus is almost grown up, and he ends up taking some of the credit. Plus, when Odysseus does finally get home (after taking his time), he doesn't trust Penelope (even though she hasn't caved in and gotten married in the meantime). Odysseus confides in Telemachus, and even his old nurse, but not his wife -- instead, he tests her. And then Telemachus and Odysseus kill 12 of the household maids, supposedly for consorting with the suitors, but without giving them a trial or anything like that.

:P

At least Herodotus has Artemisia.

All of the female characters are either love-slaves who cry when their captors die, or impossibly vain.

The strongest female character is the Athena, the Goddess of Wisdom, who causes the deaths of hundreds of Trojans because Paris didn't pick her as the most beautiful. :eyes:

Bourgeois propaganda.
:hi:

Oh, wait...

Then what about that one where the girl defied her father's will so that she could pick which boy to marry?

Oh, wait...

:evilgrin:

Very misogynist, but I still love them.

the only women in it are a bitchy nurse and a couple of good-time gals

How things changed with "Alien".

Heck, I think we can readily identify ALL pulp fiction of that era as sexist and misogynistic.

I read it so long ago that I don't remember the details of why I thought it was misogynistic, but that was my definite impression.

The movie isn't as bad as the book.

n/t

As it was an insult to anyone who paid to see it.

I went to see that with some friends of mine because one of them wanted to see it and the rest of us give him hell about it to this day. It's at the top of my personal list of Worst Movies I've Ever Seen.

the classics, anyway. Before Sharon Stone became a cowgirl. :eyes:

famous for it.

Wanna run through the reasons quickly for me.

I am convinced that its publication has saved people from being lobotomized.

But if you think about it, it can seem awfully sexist.

Arwen was little more than a prize for Aragorn to win.

Éowyn tried to bust up Aragorn and Arwen. Not only was she a housebreaker, she was fickle, taking up with Faramir so quickly. I guess any Lord was a catch in her book.

Galadriel did little more than just hand out some presents.

Goldberry was basically a stepford wife.

My other picks are Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson, Pulp Fiction, and Kill Bill.

That's just off the top of my head. :shrug:

... after she's obviously got a crush on him.

I have to admit, while I like certain things about the books, I don't think Tolkien did his best work on the main female characters. (I even went along with Jackson having Arwen out there with a sword, just because it gave her something else to do ...)

When Beren, Luthien's man was in trouble, she took action! She kicked Sauron's arse, then went with Beren into Thangorodrim itself and fooled Sauron's master, Morgoth. And after losing Beren, she stood up to the Valar and demanded that they bring him back to life.

Arwen was simply described as pretty. Very pretty. I mean really, really pretty. But she basically did nothing (in the novel).

Having her stand in for Glorfindel at the Ford of Bruinen was Jackson's best departure from the novel.

After all, after seeing butt-kicking Éowyn defeat the Witch King of Agnmar, he would have to be wondering what the hell he even sees in Arwen.

And note how clever Aragorn pulls off his coup:

First, he lets Boromir get slain by orcs. That's one heir down. Later, his henchman, Gandalf convinces Denethor that the war is hopeless leading to his suicide. And then, only when the battle is almost over, he sweeps in, claims victory and steals the throne from poor spineless Faramir, who by that time was probably too distracted by Éowyn to care. Hell, Aragorn probably promoted Faramir to Éowyn to a) get her off his back and b) convince him that he should just settle for being Prince of Ithilien.

Follow the money! Aragorn gets everything! Wealth! Fame! Power! The kingship of both Arnor and Gondor, the hand of the lovely but lazy Arwen (who surrendered her immortality for him), and 120 years of bliss before forfeiting his life (he was starting to get some gray) and leaving her alone.

-----

Not entirely my own. Based on something I read on the internet years ago. Working from memory.

A friend who lives in England told me that he saw the Tolkien family grave ... and the additional inscriptions on the tombstone are not "Aragorn and Arwen", but "Beren and Luthien".

Which suggests where JRRT's sympathies were.


Someone posted a photo here (scroll down to see):

http://www.level.com.tr/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16909&whichpage=4

role differences reflected a more misogynistic society at the time of writing

:shrug:

KATHARINA

Fie, fie! unknit that threatening unkind brow,
And dart not scornful glances from those eyes,
To wound thy lord, thy king, thy governor:
It blots thy beauty as frosts do bite the meads,
Confounds thy fame as whirlwinds shake fair buds,
And in no sense is meet or amiable.
A woman moved is like a fountain troubled,
Muddy, ill-seeming, thick, bereft of beauty;
And while it is so, none so dry or thirsty
Will deign to sip or touch one drop of it.
Thy husband is thy lord, thy life, thy keeper,
Thy head, thy sovereign; one that cares for thee,
And for thy maintenance commits his body
To painful labour both by sea and land,
To watch the night in storms, the day in cold,
Whilst thou liest warm at home, secure and safe;
And craves no other tribute at thy hands
But love, fair looks and true obedience;
Too little payment for so great a debt.
Such duty as the subject owes the prince
Even such a woman oweth to her husband;
And when she is froward, peevish, sullen, sour,
And not obedient to his honest will,
What is she but a foul contending rebel
And graceless traitor to her loving lord?
I am ashamed that women are so simple
To offer war where they should kneel for peace;
Or seek for rule, supremacy and sway,
When they are bound to serve, love and obey.
Why are our bodies soft and weak and smooth,
Unapt to toil and trouble in the world,
But that our soft conditions and our hearts
Should well agree with our external parts?
Come, come, you froward and unable worms!
My mind hath been as big as one of yours,
My heart as great, my reason haply more,
To bandy word for word and frown for frown;
But now I see our lances are but straws,
Our strength as weak, our weakness past compare,
That seeming to be most which we indeed least are.
Then vail your stomachs, for it is no boot,
And place your hands below your husband's foot:
In token of which duty, if he please,
My hand is ready; may it do him ease.

I considered the OP while breaking open a fresh deck of Luckies.

The bite of the Scotch took the pain away of the split lip and the way she looked at me after I told her to take a hike.

Nabokov's character, Humbert Humbert, is a child molester and uses his intellectual phrasing to distance himself from his victim and justify his rape of this child. Makes it sound like it's nice. When it's actually horrendous.

Blames the victim and other little girls he watches in public for being "nymphets".

but since he's a creep, I don't think it follows that the BOOK is sexist. :shrug:

;-)

Besides, you should have seen what Nabokov wanted to put on the cover. It wasn't a glove, believe me!

Humbert's the classic unreliable narrator, but it's not like Nabokov is holding him up a hero. Lolita actually comes across as pretty resourceful and strong. OTOH, Nabokov kills her in childbirth, but I think that's more a case of tragic irony than anything else.

He doesn't "blame" them for being nymphets... he rationalizes his sickness by clinging to the idea that he's helpless to resist their blossoming sexuality.

I think the book certainly presents sexist themes... but it doesn't attempt to pretend that they're anything other than monstrous.

I find it disturbing mostly for that reason. That author truly hated women.

The book "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest" is an allegory, in which the Big Nurse represents The Establishment, with the full power of authority, and R.P. McMurphy represents the individual, who has only his own indomitable will. The conflict between the two is the heart of the story and is symbolic of the conflict between the individual and society. In the book, McMurphy and the Chief are moved to another ward, with a much nicer head nurse. If you read the book, it should be apparent that it's not misogynist. Kesey worked in a mental hospital before writing the book, and nurses are in charge while doctors (psych.) make brief visits. It's beside the point that it's a male character vs. the female character. McMurphy does not represent men and the nurse represent women. They represent the individual and the establishment. The movie version completely misses this point and turns the story into a cartoon. The movie also completely neglects the Indian character, who is the narrator of the book and whose progress from paranoid schizophrenic at the beginning to fully sane and free individual at the end, is clearly evident in his narration and choice of words. Both of these are prominent themes in the book which are completely lost and/or mangled by the ill-advised, bastardized, commercialized movie version. Kesey hated the movie version of it, and for good reason. I hope someone here will believe this - the book is NOT misogynist.

And how do you defeat the dominating "ball-cutter?" By exposing her breasts, choking her, or having sex with her.

Dr. Gray suggests women should stroke men's egos (among other things :). For example, if you are lost, do not suggest your husband ask for directions, this implies you do not trust his ability to find his way...BARF.

1) He realizes that he could ask for them if he wanted to.
2) If you're so keen on finding out, ask for the directions yourself.
3) If you already know that he doesn't want to ask for directions, why do you need to bring it up?

Questionable educational background of author

The quality of Gray's PhD status is by some reports, dubious at best, and fraudulent at worst. The educational organization from which Gray purports to have earned a PhD is an unaccredited "paper mill for doctorates" known as Columbia Pacific University<5> <6>, suggesting that his formal education in any area related to his book's subject is essentially nonexistent.

In 1995, Newsweek reported that Gray had spent nine years as a celibate monk and secretary to New Age cult leader Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. In 1997, Time magazine revealed that Gray earned B.A. and M.A. in the "Science of Creative Intelligence" from the Maharishi European Research University in Switzerland, a field of study created by the Yogi himself, purported to be the "scientific theory for the development of higher states of consciousness, which naturally develop through the practice of Trascendental Meditation." Neither the school nor the degree field is accredited.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_Are_From_Mars,_Women_Are_From_Venus#Questionable_educational_background_of_author

Apropos of nothing, but I can't help thinking of one without thinking of the other...

I found it very helpful for understanding some of the baffling things men do.

I also went to school with Gray's daughter. :)

Just LOOK at the brutal treatment of women in that novel.

But then I reminded her of who gets to make decisions about the books I read to her.

;-)

and therefore the literature produced by them to a degree is.

by Hemingway.

I still like him though.

For the record, both writers I love dearly.

I read it as a horror story. At least, that was my take on it.

But still...the premise that husbands kill their wives and replace them with subservient robots is...well...

Even as a little kid, it irritated me that female characters existed solely to give the handsome hero someone to rescue. :eyes:

Most Disney movies are *so* sexist, it's almost not even worthwhile going into analyzing them.

Woman is beautiful. (Any accomplishment she has beyond that is incidental.) But, the woman is incomplete. Man shows up, falls in love with her for her beauty, and makes woman complete. End of movie.

I saw Enchanted the other day, and it's funny how much it reinforces this paradigm while poking fun at it.

Personally, I thought Giselle and Susan (the fiance) should have run off together. :P