'Treat women nice and right,

and they'll shit all over you every time. Treat them like shit, and they'll treat you like a king.'

Somebody posted this in GD.

I’ve seen this sentiment expressed many times before. Why do so many men think this way?

Only theory I can come up with is that they, or someone close to them, has had relationships with women from dysfunctional backgrounds who expect men to treat them like crap. (“We are comfortable with the familiar, even if it is painful.”)


Edited for redundancy.

I've asked myself, how can a total asshole like that be in a relationship, but no one will talk to me? I'm not in that boat now, though. I always try to be nice to Sweetie. :loveya:

what they've seen and heard that supports that theory.

The problem is a very subtle misunderstanding. What those women they observe/heard about like usually (or course there always is an exception here and there... :) ) isn't the assholish behavior, nor do they dislike the nice guy behavior. What they like is a certain level of confidence. A level that unfortunately most assholes have and most nice guys don't.

The way to overcome this: Be a confident nice guy. :P It's not that hard. You can be nice without letting people walk all over you. And you can be confident without being an ass about it.

*edited to rephrase the title... I didn't want to make it look like I was saying 'most men think this way'... :P *

people will take advantage of you if you let them. Confidence/self-respect and assertiveness make all the difference.

I forget which DUer shared this link, but she was a woman. It can really open your eyes about perceived "niceness" and how many self-described "nice guys" are actually royal assholes.

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml

But because they're so busy kissing ass and letting people walk all over them, they think they're being 'nice'. :P

When the truth is they're only doing it because they want something. And they don't realize that being a pushover is the worst way to get what they want.

both ways. I've seen the nicest guys with real bitchy women! Can't understand those relationships either!

she most certainly isn't the same person she was 4 years ago.

1 - the situations where an asshole gets an attractive woman and treats her like dirt tend to stand out to men.

2 - sometimes, the nice guys seem boring, while the dangerous guys are exciting - especially to younger women. This can change as they get older, though.

I have strong tendencies toward people who don't treat me well. Wait - allow me to rephrase: In the past, I've had strong tendencies and attractions toward people who don't treat me well.

Certainly I could type out a long analysis of why that is but I can sum it up by saying that, for me, it was completely a self-esteem issue cocooned inside a real aversion to conflict. Comfort zone had to do with it. I like being partnered and am really not happy being alone. I don't like not having someone to talk with (though oddly, these folks who treated me like shit were never people who particularly enjoyed conversation) and so was always more apt to just stay where I was as opposed to "risking" having nobody to walk next to, kwim? Though this was not modeled behavior for me growing up - my mom is and always was a very strong and self-defining woman who never relied on my dad for decision-making or anything else. I believe that it's just how I was forged, kwim? That self-definition is one of my life lessons. I'm working on it really hard.

Perhaps worth mentioning is that it has never mattered whether it was a man or a woman, btw. I've allowed both to treat me like shit in the name of Lurrrrrrrve and really acted as though it didn't matter. The times, though, they are a'changin.

...completely irrational except for a malicious interest in seeing men humiliated. Previous dysfunctional relationships may explain some of this attitude, but some of it is just solipsistic asshattery.

like.. you can cut people off on the road all day and remember none of it, but that one time when that stupid fool cut you off to goto the Olive Garden is remembered for days.

:hi:

but that would probably involve several broadly sweeping generalizations even worse than the original statement.

There is dysfunction all around, to be sure.

I think the first sign of a dysfunctional relationship is one where either or both of the parties are looking for what they can get out of the relationship (ie being treated "like a king").

If you like someone, the only thing you should be after is a little of their time. Your life should be complete w/o them, their life should be complete w/o you. It should just be about enjoying each other's company, and finding out if you share the same goals in life.

Everything else is a power struggle... the essence of dysfunction.

This is only my experience and may not apply, but said experience is based more on both observation of others and a few events in my own life.

Women who seem to prefer someone who treats them like shit -- and let's be clear that they don't actually *prefer* this -- tend to have a legacy of, as someone else said, dysfunctional relationships that often stem ultimately from some form of abuse in their early years. A lot of these women that I've known also tend to have a male friend or two who treats them very well, and if you follow it over time, those relationships tend to last while they sometimes go through a series of dysfunctional "romantic" relationships with others.

But the other side of the coin is the men who complain about this. They themselves tend to have dysfunctional relationships, are not assertive, have little to no self-confidence and may have experienced some form of physical or psychological abuse in their childhood as well. Then too a number of so-called "nice guys" are only nice on the surface, and in my experience, these types tend to be the ones that complain the loudest.

In other words, it's not just about the woman.

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml

Some woman DUer shared this with me during a discussion so I saved it in my bookmarks.

but the bottom line is that trying to "be nice" or to use one’s social charm to achieve one’s social or sexual objectives is just as manipulative as anything else. The details are different, but what is at the core is the same.

Behaving in a certain way in order to get something in return.

It's dysfunctional.

or finding yourself first and being comfortable. If you have to act differently or not be genuine in order to get something, then it's probably not for you. Anyway, I certainly have social and sexual objectives!

I like this parable, the man with no spine:
http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/spineless.shtml
I can certainly relate.

“I would argue that the Nice Guy phenomenon is dependent largely on the age group you discuss. Most of the complaints I have heard on it personally have been from high-school students, or those in very little contact with women. Most of those complaints evaporate when they reach college.

High school is a strange place, with cliques, rampant peer pressure, and a well defined social hierarchy that applies to both boys and girls (note I don’t say men and women). Cheerleaders do not go with football players over nerds because of their stunning respect for women. They go with them because of peer pressure. A perfect couple in high school could very well never lay eyes on each other because the rules of high school declare that they are of different social classes. There are alpha males in high school, and the much coveted alpha females are probably not going to break rank for fear of social repercussions….”

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/yagtong.shtml

By which I mean the loudy-proclaimed self-labelled NICE GUYS instead of actual nice guys. The former trumpet how NICE they are, yet THOSE BITCHES treat them like dirt; while the latter just go about their lives.

The "nice guys" are manipulative, self-pitying jerks. I cross the street to avoid them.

personally, i have no patience for such bullshit.

(insert adjective here) or "All men are (insert adjective here)" than it is to look at themselves.

just kidding. :evilgrin:

I agree with you.

(in other words, it has nothing to do with gender at all), the reality as so many have expressed is not so clear cut as that expression.

I agree with the poster who said that confidence is a big part of it, and will further that by saying that many so-called "nice" people are borderline annoying in how they choose to be "nice" to you. Such actions can obviously drive someone away for a variety of reasons, including that the object of said "nicety" wants to feel they are free/able to do things for themselves and also have some personal space. In other words, not only do the "nice" people sometimes lack the confidence that someone else may have, but that they tend toward insecurity to the point that it undermines their own relationships.

I know I have in the past fallen for someone who is not nice to me at all, who in fact can be downright rude. But it's not the rudeness that attracted me, other than perhaps a little bit of the "forbidden fruit" thing, the idea that we can change that person, or that we're being rebels by falling for the bad guy/girl. If anything, I never wanted the "bad" person to be mean to me, and usually the contrary.

As I matured, I realized this is silly on so many levels, and that being infatuated with someone who is not a good person is a waste of my time and of theirs. Sadly, I know a lot of men who are very much stuck in this rut and get cynical, and worse who sometimes become jerks in the hopes it'll get them laid. Sure, it may work occasionally for the short term, but are they really happy? Of course not, and they also will inevitably drive someone away just as quickly if they are intentionally being assholes.

Unfortunately there are some women who are from dysfunctional backgrounds like you said, and they confuse attention with validation. They want attention from men, because it means to them they are worthwhile. With someone like this, the worse you treat them, the better they try to treat you, in the hopes that you will give them the validation they need. If you however start by giving them the attention they are looking for, then they have it already and see no need to give it back. It happens with men too, but in different ways. And unfortunately there are men who generalize this sentiment into all women, which it decidedly is not all woman by any stretch. It's a case of a few who have very low self-esteem.

Not that I would normally express it in such broad terms.

I think we have all known someone and thought. "Why is she putting up with his crap?"
That is some girl who deserved better than the shit she was getting from her "boyfriend".
While also knowing guys who worshipped the ground women walked on. And yet women never seemed to want to be more than a friend with those guys. And even at that never for social occasions. And of course the guy who we all thought was doing the right things for his wife. Then we discover she maxed out the credit cards and took off with another guy.

So most of us have probably observed some women who stay with guys who treat them like dog shit. While also having seen some guys get treated like dog shit by his girl.

even with the few amount of posts,

it has made me think I'm the dysfunctional one. I've always done things for others, whether it be past girlfriends, my first wife and now my second wife. That's the way I was raised. I've felt like I've always done those things which I feel try to make life a little less stressful and easier for them. Whether it be helping around the house, cooking and cleaning, being respectful and (not always happens) mindful of their feelings. I guess I see things as compromise is much more useful than conflict.

Maybe it is asking too much to want some of the same in return. Maybe putting her first whether it be sexually or non-sexually in our everyday lives is unrealistic. I've never considered myself a shelfish person. Maybe I'm wrong. Over the last year as things have gone basically to pot financially and personally the one constant that my friends and people who know me have always said that it's time for me to start looking out for me.

But there are two things that are very true right now. I love my wife dearly but I can't stand being treated like the hired help any longer.

http://www.nomoremrniceguy.com/buythebook.php

It has absolutely changed the way I approach life with regards to personal relationships, and it really did give me the inner strength to walk away from my most recent relationship...one in which my gf was starting to show clear signs of dysfunctionality that I would have completely catered to in the past.

i took that little self assessmemt. scored 40/48.

I think it's a Barnes and Noble run soon.

After we get moved this weekend though.

much of yourself you'll actually see in the stories and examples...

Good luck with everything...I sincerely hope you can work things out in your relationship!

I appreciate it.

How they treat me is up to them and if i take being treated like shit from them..It is on me.
But I do see and have experienced the nice guy finish last deal.
People of both sexes are assholes. That doesn't mean i have to be one to.

holds the power."

I am surprised at all the gender specific comments in this thread, because I thought this just got hashed out. The whole "nice guy/crap woman and crap guy/nice woman" polarity is a manifestation of the above statement. In many, many relationships there is a party that can "take it or leave it" and a party who "wants "it" really, really badly", the one with the ability to "walk" has the "power". It may not be pretty, but I think it lends plenty of non-gender specific wisdom to this discussion. g.

Love is not talking about every thing you see...

That would be "treat women nicley."

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