Why do so many guys make the same first date mistakes?

I've been on a number of first dates over the past few years that never lead to second dates, though one turned into a very nice friendship. Without exception, every single man followed the same formula; he told me about his job, his house, the cars he owned. bragged about his grades in college (which is weird, given that college was 20 years ago for most of them), his ex-wives or former girlfriends, and sometimes mentioned travel, military service, or other resume items. And, without exception, each guy asked me virtually NOTHING about myself. If he learned anything about me, I had volunteered the information.

Case in point this past weekend; date with "Joe", met through an internet dating site. Joe showed up wearing very worn sandals, khaki shorts, and a Tommy Bahama shirt with giant palm trees on it. I was dressed for a casual date-but not THAT casual. After the introductions he launched into a long explanation of why he wore what he did (it brought him luck during a golf game once) and asked me if he looked like his photos (he didn't but I lied and said "oh, of course! I recognized you instantly"). He said nothing about my appearance. We sat down for dinner and I asked him how he had spent his week, how long he had been with the dating site, if he had any interesting experiences so far, I asked about his family, hometown, interests, his job (mechanic, golf shark, and general handyman-NOT what his profile had stated). He launched into stories about a car accident he was in (to explain his very artificial looking teeth), and a long, long description of some aptitude tests he had taken in the Navy, the upshot of which was that he had no distinct aptitude for or interest in anything, which is rare (and therefore special in his view). He told me about condos he bought and flipped, old cars he restored, the beamer he once owned, how much money he made playing golf, the war heros in his family tree, and on, and on, and on...

Finally he asked me ONE question about myself. It was a follow up to the only question he asked me during our email correspondence. "So , you've worked on some popular movies. That must have been cool". I replied " Oh, it was! Working with so many creative people was really wonderful. I wish I could do it all the time. But the management was difficult, and now most of the studios have seriously downsized now so it's no longer an an option for me. Still, it was fun while it lasted. I met a lot of interesting artists and others who gave talks at our studio, lots of celebrities and such..." left an opening for comment. No comment. "but I also worked on some lousy films that no one saw, including me"! Another opening for a question. No question. So I told a funny story about Orville Redenbacher hitting on me at work when I was 25, and how my friends used to tease me that I could have become heiress to a popcorn fortune. He responded with how much he likes "Hunt for Red October" because it was just like his experiences in the Navy. We talked about that for a long time. He never had anything dramatic happen to him in the Navy, but I did learn loads about what it was like to spend weeks on a submarine. I leaned forward and was engaged and focused as possible, sometimes flirting. My actions and comments seemed to put him at ease, but still he made no effort to get to know me. Everything he said felt like a well rehearsed resume.

So, men of DU, why do so many guys follow this formula during a first date? Why do they show virtually no interest in finding out anything about the woman they are with? Yet they work hard to impress her with the stuff they own, or their degrees (like the previous date; three doctorates but no job, and no interests other than attaining more degrees), or how much money they make, or once made, or how other women fawn over them...very little about what they think or believe, what their passions and goals are in life, and no attempt to discover if the two of you have any real common interests or desires. It's depressing, because most of the men I've met are fairly nice people, but they aren't interesting in the least and make me feel as if I'm just there as some sort of prop, filling the position of "my date for the evening". I have a lot of male friends, and I can't imagine ANY of them behaving like this on a night out with any woman. Any suggestions on how I can get these guys to engage in real conversation with a little more give and take, or is it hopeless?

personally, I would never do that during a first date, I would be too interested in getting to know the girl to talk about myself...

not that I go on first dates anymore...:P

Stupid men think that it's about accomplishment, themselves. Preening. They're idiots.

It's actually all about her. The best resume is requested, not given unsolicited.

date is actually NOT helping?

Hmm... that might explain a lot.

answering a personal ad last year, i accidentally attached a pdf of my resume instead of my photo. needless to say the lady who received it was quite amused, and still went on the date with me. her only comment was something along the lines that i really looked like my resume... (which is to say, a complete and utter geek... which i am, but that would be beside the point)

date went well, as i had no need to say anything about myself... :D

I don't like feeling like I have to volunteer information about myself to keep the conversation going.It should all come out naturally as part of an easy rapport. But geez, I just keep finding the same sort of men over and over again-whether it's someone I've been set up with or someone I've found online. And they aren't all entirely stupid-some, like the guy last month, have Ph.Ds- but they are socially inept for sure!

Kind of like the bloke that is NOT a car guy who is single and buys a high dollar car with no clue about it. It's a cover sheet, they think. Or, they buy the $400 shoes and the middle of the road, GQ inspired watch because of the name. Idiots. Cracks me up. Them having PhDs makes no difference, because they're acting upon learned behavior, sadly.

:P

Lol...ever have any Phd talk non-stop about their topic, never stopping for a breath?

You know what you should do? Bring a spray can to your next date, clearly labelled with a sign saying "Bullshit Repellant" on the side. When the guy starts going off about his navy training or phd topic, you don't say anything. You just spray him. Like a bad cat.

In all fairness to self-absorbed guys who nervously go out on first dates and launch monologues, there are a lot of people out there who never get past the self-absorption, and/or never learn how to include other people in the conversation. I've noticed it with both sexes and with various age groups, too.

But I suspect it's getting worse due to cell phones, iPods, and the like, which actually isolate people as much as they connect them to the world.

But this advice I loved...

You just spray him. Like a bad cat. :rofl:

I'll have to buy a spray bottle on the way home from work tonight.

If guys just listen, or ask questions - they get much farther

....these are the kind of guys you'll constantly run into.

same formula. I just don't get it. Explains a lot about why they're still single though!

Becoming attracted to women I later found out were married was most of the problem ;)

But, I've never considered myself formulaic. Then again, I didn't have many dates before I met my first wife. I did meet her online, but not a dating site. Rather a spiritual board (that shut down about five years ago) so we became fast friends, first, then it got serious after that. The same goes for my current online relationship, though she's a bit further away this time around (New Zealand!)

I have heard at least two people (authors of spiritual books) mention that yoga centers were great places to meet guys... ;)

I do go to the gym regularly. No luck there. No luck at our local Dem chapter either. I'm 43 so I'm guessing that my time is just about up. I've always been VERY attractive to married guys, which really pisses me off. Finding a decent single guy in my age bracket has been one long exercise in futility so far. I'm running out of options and ideas. :-(

that were more interesting than the other women I knew. However, I feel I reached a turning point when I basically just "gave up". I stopped actively looking or even hoping and resigned myself to being single the rest of the life. One year later, I met the woman I ended up marrying and stayed with for a little over eight years :) We parted as friends and still remain in contact with each other, so even if the marriage didn't last, the friendship has.

Last year, I did a similar thing in that I said to myself (or the Universe) that I would actively look for someone in a couple of years, to get over the end of the marriage and all that encompasses. Then, in this past January I meet the woman I'm "dating" now. I don't know if you've got any belief or somesuch in the concept of "law of attraction" but thats seems to be what has happened to me. I can't say I believe it wholeheartedly, but I do know I pretty well told the world that though I'm available, I'm not trying anymore. If I'm meant to have someone, then they will have to come to me, instead of the other way around. Perhaps that is what you should try, to just "give up" for a short time and not actively seek anyone, even friendships. I don't know if it would work for you, but you could have a relaxed break from the stress of it :D

I was engaged when I was in my early 20's, but he was abusive, so that turned me off of men for a few years.When I recovered I fell in love a couple of times with wonderful single guys who I soon discovered had an eye for someone else.After those heartbreaks, when I was still young and very stupid I got involved with a married man who said that his wife had asked for a divorce and that he was just waiting for his kid to leave home before that happened. I really believed that if I went along with what he wanted, I would be first in line for the "great catch" that he was once the divorce went through. Of course, it was all a pack of lies. Once I figured that out I spent years very actively trying to find the perfect,solidly SINGLE man. I went through much of what I'm going through now and much more, but with the same amount of success-sometimes less, even. Then a few years ago I gave up completely. ANOTHER married guy started pursuing me, and one evening, when I hit a very low point (had just lost my job, health insurance, and was having a health scare) he seduced me and continued to chase me for years. The only positive outcome there was that he was stunningly handsome-the sort of man I would NEVER approach, no matter what his status was. As soon as he started showing me attention it seemed like other guys were coming out of the woodwork. Sadly, most were also married or just unacceptable in some very obvious ways (like being Republicans). But I think it was a bit of "law of attraction" at work. A man who I would have considered way out of my league was smitten with me, so I started opening myself up to possibilities with guys I never would have even considered before, and would have probably dismissed because I didn't think I was attractive enough for them. So now I am just kind of waiting for them to come to me-but waiting actively by putting myself on a few dating websites!

I hope that you find what you are looking for too. Hopefully the universe or whatever you believe in will send the right person at the exact right time-perhaps the one you are seeing now will turn out to be "the one". Who knows? But it sounds like you're on the right track!

I feel she and I will likely get together more than just the one time coming up in Hawaii (hopefully, though I'll have to vote early as we're meeting first week of November.) I'll let everyone know how it goes, assuming the election results don't drown me out! :P

You seem to be on the right track, too. What you say here is different from your initial post, as if you're seeing the bigger picture and maybe a more positive pattern and direction. So, keep thinking positively, imagining the best outcome and you'll attract it :)

You forgot the :sarcasm:

AAAARGHHH!!!

I couldn't get away fast enough.

One guy, who was one of the local TV sportscasters, got so bad (we lasted 2 dates) that I started thinking that if the camera wasn't on him, or there was no one in front of him to go on and on and on about himself to, he'd disappear. At least, that's how he acted.

Ugh.

but are too clueless to realize that the best way to impress someone is to be interested in them.

with his comment that the girl wouldn't find him worthwhile because he had no "skills". You expect that kind of idiocy from a high school kid, but a 40 something? They should have learned by now, certainly!

I am reticent to talk about my own life experience, unless asked, but I can listen to others spin their life stories for hours on end.

What some people find banal and commonplace about their lives I find enlightening as to why they have become the person they are.


Unless you ask me about my cats.

Then I'll bore you to tears with stupid pet stories.

1.) Why do men not ask questions?
Because we're nervous and don't want to ask the sort of question that would make us look like a moron. We're kind of hoping you'll occupy yourself until we're not nervous anymore. Alternately, we've decided already we're not interested and we don't want to be rude.

2.) Why do men talk incessantly about themselves and not interesting things about themselves?
Looking for validation in the form of "Oh! You like _______ too!"

I can't speak for others but I have no idea what other people find interesting about me. Truly. I once held a woman in rapt attention for over an hour with the story about why I know Federalist 10 and Federalist 51 verbatim. I've lost interest of women telling the story of how I nearly drowned saving the life of a little girl when I was a lifeguard in Ocean City, MD during college summer-break. Only one of those topics strikes me as remotely interesting.

3.) Why do men not respond to obvious openings for questions?
Because we usually know little or nothing about the the topic and...don't want to ask the sort of question that would make us look like a moron. This actually has a fairly-simple solution. Answer the question you'd ask if you didn't think you'd look like an idiot for asking it if you were him.

1). Asking "where did you grow up"? "Is your current job the thing you went to school for"? (if not, ask her what her dream career or life would be) "what do you really like to do with your free time"? "What was the last great movie you saw"? "If you could travel anyplace in the world, where would it be"? "You look great; do you do yoga or Pilate's"? "do you have any pets"? "What brought you to this town/ city? Do you think that you would want to retire here"? Those are just a few simple, innocuous questions that would never sound stupid and would at least show her that you're mildly interested in who she is and what she enjoys.

@). Telling me about how much your home cost, about the cars you've owned, how much money you make, or what kind of student you were doesn't lead to those kinds of questions. A story about how you saved someone from drowning does make you sound like a fearless hero, but she's not going to say "wow, you know, I like saving people from drowning too"! Unless she, too, was a lifeguard. One or two tales of that nature are OK for the first date, but generally I think it's better to save such stories for later on, once you've figured out if you have much in common. Funny stories are another matter; every woman loves a guy with a great sense of humor.

3). In the case of the sample I gave, the appropriate questions/ comments would be "Oh, what kind of celebrities visited your studio"? followed by your own "brushes with greatness" tales. The second opening should have elicited a "oh, the movies couldn't have been THAT bad! What were they"?

Never worry about looking like a moron. Just be yourself and treat her like any other human being that you'd really like to get to know.

might feel that women are looking for financial stability in a potential partner, or a sense of his accomplishments - signs that this individual would be a good mate, father or partner long-term, sort of like the bower bird with his shiny guilded nest, or animals that display to attract a partner! ;)


Just a thought. However, since women now are usually much more financially independent and career-minded, you would think that guys would have made the adjustment, or worked on more interactive conversational skills.


I tended to have a thing for geeky guys who had interests very simillar to mine when I was single, so that wasn't so much of an issue.

computer programmer over an upwardly mobile lawyer who anxiously awaits the release of the new Mercedes models every year. I make a point of saying that I have my own home, car, and salary,and I hate shopping- so finding someone interesting, intelligent, witty and compatible is at the top of my list. They guys writing me are either 58 and standing in front of a new sports car or boat, or 28 and showing off their six pack abs (obviously looking for a cougar, not a long term relationship). I had one fellow artist write to me, but it was just a long rambling jumble of romantic cliches followed by an adamant statement that he WAS the guy of my dreams, I just didn't know it yet. It was actually kind of creepy. There HAVE to be better options out there!

maybe you should attend some sci-fi or comic conventions! Lots of geeks there!

Also haunting record stores.... (the few that still exist)

two months ago. I had several guys flirting with me, but they weren't very socially adept either. One even showed up on the last evening we were there at 1am looking for a quick bang, which was really tacky. I have some geeky friends, but they aren't fanboys or fangirls; they're just intelligent people who may enjoy "the Lord of the Rings" or a few graphic novels; not furries dressing up as Star Trek characters time traveling into the middle ages, or anything like that. There has to be something in between average and MegaCon gaming or sci-fi freak show. A place for closet geeks perhaps? So far the local bookstores have yielded nothing more than married guys on the make, and there are no record stores in town. :shrug:

I never saw any women like you there

sad, but true.

Sometimes things like this make me embarrassed for my gender. Then I remember that things like this make guys like me look better. :D

and tell me that he didn't approve of tattoos but since we had such a "connection" I could have mine removed when we started dating...

Uh no...

He listed himself as ultra conservative. I was listed a liberal, vegetarian with a tat...:hippie:

Myspace and other networking sites - guys cruising who did not read one word of their profile usually.

profile. There are plenty just like him out there. The nerve of anyone saying that you could have the tattoos removed at all-let alone "once you started dating", speaks volumes about his level of assholeness right there!

I once had a profile that said I liked to do all these urban things and that I was a democratic socialist, and I got overtures from hard-right conservative farmers. Go figure.

These thankfully aren't my problems. I'm the guy my friends come to for dating help...and honestly I never realized dating was a skill until I saw that some people just don't have the dating skill. I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that I'm over my head, I cannot diagnose or fix things I cannot understand. Dating is like swimming for me...unconscious and natural.

One of my best friends, the nicest most amazing guy I've ever met (any woman would be lucky to have him) is the worst dater in the world. He buys real estate for a living (for a holding company/real-estate investment brokerage) and dates like he's buying property or selling himself. He will tell you all about Chuck (he's Chuck BTW) but in the manner that he's trying to sell himself like one sells 3.5 acres of lakefront property. I told him "ask questions"...that was a mistake. He asks questions like he's trying to size you up as a customer. "So...what are you looking for?" is not the right first question. Once you get him past himself and he settles down...he reverts back into a normal human being. He thus has a tendency to fall madly in love with women who he's known for years. Women who will not date him because he is not interesting to them, he's their friend.

I'm out of ideas...he doesn't formulate questions and I can't give him a list of things to ask. I can't tell him how to be interesting. I'm lost, Chuck is the basis of my initial answer. It sounds like you're dating "Chucks" and the single largest part of the problem is that they suck at dating. They'd be great boyfriends/lovers/partners but you just can't date them. Nobody wants to have to hold someone's hand through the dating process to get to relationship.

women are people like everyone else, and just want to be treated as such. Dale Carnegie's advice works for just about every kind of relationship in existence.

I'm not sure if I've had a long line of "Chucks", or just a whole bunch of hopelessly boring self involved men who don't see anything beyond their own noses!

he talked about nothing but himself. She just listened. At some point, he ran out of things to say and started asking her questions and actually turned out to be quite a decent guy.

But most of the time, I have avoided the men who put their resumes online, so to speak. The ones who obviously think they're a good catch because they have a job, a house, and a car.

The other type I have always avoided are the ones who write a political diatribe when asked to tell about themselves. Even if I agree with their views, I think it's weird to go into detail about Bush's failings when asked to write about YOURSELF.

*blerg*

pretty much sums them up!

don't give up...

:hug:

:hug:

I can tell you from experience there is nothing worse than going on a date with a woman that will not talk about herself or interject herself into a conversation.

One of the last girls I went on a date with was like that. After you try venturing enough questions there is little left to do but talk about yourself and hope something you say sparks a conversation.

well, I started to until he interrupted me anyway. I told him how much I loved to travel, about my favorite places in the world, why I love the neighborhood I'm living in now, but that I'd like to move to Asheville, NC some day (near where he grew up). I told him about a few funny exchanges I'd had on the dating site we were both using. But he never responded directly to anything I said. He either went off on a tangent about himself or said nothing.

about them, and how you learn it. I'm going to guess that, even though what you learned from him on the date is somewhat different than the perception his profile had given you, what you would learn if you got to know him over time, or thru less rehearsed press availability sessions, as it where, would be quite different than what he presented on your date.

I think it might compare to what I've found to be true on some discussion boards that are more "community-like" than this one; people may or may not be lying, per se, but they definitely aren't what they say (think?) they are either.

...I've always told my male friends when they go out, "it's not about you, it's about your date". Seems simple.

I always found it easy to talk to my dates. I found it boring talking about myself, so I always led the discussion towards them.

I guess I always thought that was Dating 101.

:shrug:

Therefore he requires no further information.

The little head cares naught about religion, politics, philosophy, education, career, hobbies, family, etc.

...if the little head wants happiness, then the big head must act like he cares. It's really not that hard to figure out.

Once you learn to fake that you got the world by the short hairs. Surprised he hasn't figured that out by now.

;)

For some reason he was a VIP at our studio one day. The dude looked like he was 90 or so. He came through with a couple of family members, then reappeared at my desk a half hour or so later with a magnetic key for the Swan hotel across the street "Here you go sweetie. Meet me after six.." he said. EWWWWWW! I was about 25 at the time-younger than his grand daughters! I told a girlfriend and she quipped "Hey, if he got you knocked up would your stomach expand like a bag of jiffy pop"? :rofl: Needless to say I tossed away the key as soon as he left. He died a few years later. And to think, I could have inherited that popcorn fortune, lol!

:rofl:

commercials. It's Newman's Own all the way for me, baby!

Why don't you only agree to first dates where you do something to talk about? Movies. A concert of some kind. The zoo. A sporting event.

THEN you have dinner or coffee, and you have a lot to talk about aside from the routine twenty questions.

Break out of the box!

maybe because they have more time to think about a response? Who knows? I wouldn't go out with them if it didn't seem like we had a few common interests. I couldn't have handled a three hour trip through the zoo with any of them, and there's not a lot of time for talk during movies or concerts, so lunch and dinner and a walk through the park seem fairly safe.

I think I just need some new places to find single men!

It's much easier to just ramble on about yourself than to actively listen to what someone else is saying. So a good guess would be that half the guys you date are scared to death, so they just ramble on about themselves because it's comfortable. The other half have no people skills, or the skills they have are bad ones. Active listening is an art that a lot of men, through lack of interest or lack of opportunity, never learn.

Perhaps you can help these guys along by gently steering the conversation. Ask open ended questions that you know will bring the topic back in your court. It's a lot of work, but at least you'll be enjoying the challenge if not the date!

because I never know what to say... although I do have a list of topics and other things to say stored in the back of my mind in case a dreaded silence erupts.

:P I only kid.

I find talking about myself really boring, so I'd always steer the conversation around to the woman. I'd ask what I thought were relevant and engaged questions, hoping to demonstrate that I was interested in what she did and thought.

Unfortunately, I found that this didn't get me many second dates, either. Only years later did I learn from a female friend that my dating style was less conversation and more "inquisition." Oh, well. I guess it's possible to be too curious.

Asking several, quickly-answered factual type questions makes it seem like an interrogation and you will go into the reject bin. It's gotta be fluid...maybe even introduce a topic, then ask their opinion.

Usually I'm less than comfortable talking about myself and much prefer listening to my date-- well, I haven't really done anything that might be called a "date" in quite a while, but anyway, you get the point. What about you?

with my friends, and I do always hope that he's fascinating and really witty, to boot (a tall order indeed). These days I find myself doing the "please don't let him be dull" silent prayer before every date. I've yet to be pleasantly surprised, though. The city is apparently packed with very uniform, unoriginal, uninspired, insipid men who seem terribly impressed with themselves. But then again, with the amount of time most people in America spend watching equally uniform, unoriginal, uninspired, and insipid television programs, maybe I shouldn't be surprised by this. America; home of the bland.

:-(

This is the way guys talk with other guys.

You see, (and yes, I realise I'm generalizing here) while you ladies were busy communicating with each other, talking about feelings, socialising, talking about those sort of things (mostly about intangibles, no, I am not trying to get into stereotypes here) guys were busy competing. Guys communicate by competing, the best job, the best car, the best pay, the best girlfriend... Well you get the picture, sometimes we forget to turn it off for a woman. Ironically, the best advice I got about first dates was "shut up, and let them speak" "everyone likes to talk about themselves, so ask questions, and respond, but listen more than you speak". Ironically, it was my wife who was the hard questioner, always asking probing questions, so, obviously, its not a universal truth.

Lorien vs. The Nice, Predictable Boring Guy!! Battle ROYALE!

This is why I never worry about being single.

I am also married.

In the dating/mating world women choose their suiters. It is true. So men have to prove to their potential mate that they are worthy and can provide for a family. All you want is a casual relationship? Fine. The rules are the same for casual encounters and finding a lifelong partner. If you are a gorgeous guy you can have casual sex a lot. But for the less good looking/lower status they have to prove what they can bring to the table in the form of resources.

To answer your questions:

So, men of DU, why do so many guys follow this formula during a first date?
They have to prove they have resources or at least more than most guys.

Why do they show virtually no interest in finding out anything about the woman they are with?
Women do the selecting, so she needs the info more than he does.

Yet they work hard to impress her with the stuff they own, or their degrees (like the previous date; three doctorates but no job, and no interests other than attaining more degrees), or how much money they make, or once made, or how other women fawn over them...very little about what they think or believe, what their passions and goals are in life, and no attempt to discover if the two of you have any real common interests or desires. It's depressing, because most of the men I've met are fairly nice people, but they aren't interesting in the least and make me feel as if I'm just there as some sort of prop, filling the position of "my date for the evening".

Again, women need to know what resources you bring to the table. There are ways to signal this. Fancy cars and clothes are the most common. If that is not acceptable in the social circle you travel in then they have to tell you or signal in some other way. Ever wonder why poorer people where more flashy jewelry than people with more assets? It is a signaling device that they have money, or at least more than the next guy. When everyone has a lot of assets then showy displays are frowned upon. But in the dating/mating game, worthiness must be communicated - if not in actual assets then in potential for assets.

Any suggestions on how I can get these guys to engage in real conversation with a little more give and take, or is it hopeless?

You want give and take? Understand their motivation, have a little empathy and maybe have a second date.

om edit: Also, you are fishing in a pool filled with social misfits, by and large. Most good men get snapped up for marriage. If they are 40 and not married there usually are good reasons for it.

I can't speak for the author of the OP, but I'd rather have a guy who is a total bum and makes me laugh than the rich guy who I have nothing in common with. :shrug:

We're not interviewing for who has the flashiest car, we're interviewing for the guy who we're going to hold hands with in the old folks home in 50 years. :shrug:

(and I am talking in generalities - so if one happens to be the exception to the rule, please realize that every rule has exceptions. But if one cannot speak in generalities then conversation on this and many other topics is impossible.)

Women who earn a lot want a man who earns more. That is the way we are wired.

You would not want a guy who is a total bum. Why don't women go trolling in the homeless shelters for men? Men who earn little tend to be dysfunctional in many ways. Drugs, alcohol, just plain crazy. Men who can't hold a job are irresponsible in many other areas of their life. They don't get tags on their car and end up getting their licenses suspended and in jail. If they can't get along with bosses, how do you think they get along with a spouse?

Employment is an indicator of healthiness and fitness for marriage/relationship.

For me, the sexist form of foreplay is verbal ping pong.

Since I have my own income, I don't need a meal ticket, even though another income would be nice, of course.

In my profession, I got several frequently asked questions, the most frequent and dumbest being, "Are you fluent?"

("No, Dumb Ass, I'm a Japanese-English translator because I speak only a few halting words of Japanese. You'd probably ask a mathematician, 'Do you know algebra?'")

Years ago, I realized that none of the men I had actually dated long-term ever asked any of the FAQs.

the usual questions are often a good conversation starter.

And if they can't get a conversation going, it's probably a lost cause. :shrug:

...than in finding out that our product ain't what the customer is looking for--much less the hopes and dreams of the customer. If the goal is to make a sale, we can be relentless.

:rofl:

You remember the story about the frog and the scorpion, right?



Thus endeth the lesson, Grasshopper.

Trying to explain why men do the same stupid shit over and over and over when they should probably know better is like explaining why scorpions sting things.

:toast:

I remember it well. But I think that what you've described is the definition of insanity; doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. I don't know who is the more insane, though; them, for using the same rehearsed lines each and every time, or me, for going on date after date expecting to find somebody worthwhile!

"I set my standards pretty low so I'm never disappointed..."

Just kidding.

:toast:

It's all trial and error. Someday I'm going to write a book called "I Learned All I Need To Know About Relationships From Susan Small." She really was the "girl next door"...a year older than me. Her parents bought the house when I was 13, and I ended up moving to California when I was sixteen...three intense years of things like sitting in my back yard under a full moon on a clear Massachusetts night waiting for her to get home from her date so I could see her. On that particular night, when she came walking up the street in the dark, she looked at me and said "Have you been waiting for me?" and of course I said "NO!"...but she knew, because one of the first lessons men learn, if they learn any at all, is that women know. They ALWAYS know.

We hung out for hours on end. There was a broken old stone wall, under some tall pine trees, at the edge of the hill overlooking the lake. I lived in the woods...my dad and my uncle built the house I grew up in. Susan and I would go for walks in the woods. We'd sit in the snow in my front yard. We just hung out. Sometimes we'd talk, other times we'd enjoy the silence. We'd talk about relatively straightforward stuff and we'd talk about off the wall stuff. But we were just two people who liked each other, who enjoyed each others' company, and felt comfortable and at ease being ourselves in the others' presence.

So as an adult, whenever things go sideways on me, I go back to that particular litmus test.

Rehearsed lines are a sign of immaturity and insecurity. The peer pressure in "Guy World" is that we are brought up to be "deal closers." That whole thing about the journey is the reward? Not so much in "Guy World." Guys seek agreement. Guys want to hear the word "yes." A lot of guys stop putting effort into a relationship after they hear the word "yes" because they subconsciously think that they've reached their objective, their goal, and now they need to set forth on a new one.

Guys...unfortunately...watch other guys for clues on how to function, and sometimes they take advice from guys who use rehearsed lines.

I have a friend coming over for dinner tonight. In about a half hour I'm going to the store to buy what I need. I'm making spaghetti and meatballs...the family recipe, everything made from scratch, including grinding my own beef. It takes about two hours to make the meatballs, brown them in olive oil, and prepare the sauce. Then it simmers for an hour and a half. I'll make a salad and get a loaf of bread and probably have vanilla ice cream with some kind of fresh fruit for dessert. My friend and I pass the litmus test. I really, genuinely like her and we hang out effortlessly. On my birthday she took me for Chinese food...real Chinese food, in a restaurant where there are no menus in English. It's the little things that have staying power. That's the other thing that a lot of guys miss in "Guy World Boot Camp." The consistency of a series of little things, over a period of time, is what adds up to the "big thing"...a relationship with staying power.

Keep the faith...sooner or later you'll meet a guy who gets it and on that day you'll tell yourself it was worth the wait.

:toast:

all of whom are now married, or there was no physical attraction to begin with. So I guess that I have a similar litmus test. I wish that EVERY guy had had a 'Susan Small" in their life early on; it would save everyone a lot of pain later!

Hey, it could have been worse; I could have gone out with the belligerent guy who emailed me and included this in his profile:

What she SAID and what she REALLY MEANT:
I live life to the fullest! - Likes to go drinking with her girlfriends at least 4 nights a week.
A few extra pounds. - Fifty.
Looking for commitment. - Won’t drive 10 miles to meet for coffee.
Picture is “recent” – 5 to 10 years old
Friends first – simultaneously dating 8 guys while she's "shopping."
Must be financially secure – gold digger.
Separated – married, and her angry husband has a gun.
That’s so far away – wants love to be convenient.
On hundreds of favorites lists – Not serious. Insecure. Feeding on attention.
Lies on her profile about her age or photo – will lie about other things.
I love to travel! - “your treat”
Must love dogs! (or other pets) – has substituted the love of a good man for the love of an animal
Must have this, this, or this – demanding & unrealistic. Thinks love is a menu.
I have this kind of car/house/investment – materialistic
Profile reads like a resume – thinks love is a job


Hey, all of my best relationships WERE "friends first", I adore my cats but adore the humans in my life just as much -and sometimes more (the guy also had some anti-dog owner rants there, so obviously he has issues). And man-I LOVE to travel, but have always done so on my own dime, thank you very much! If they are insulting on their profile, imagine how they are on a date!

I am continually amazed (and embarrassed) by the behavior of my gender.

:shrug:

So what *do* you do at an animator's studio?

True story: A buddy of mine worked at whatever studio did Smurfs; they used to come up with inventive ways to kill a Smurf (illustrated, of course). Smurf run over by a train, Smurf impaled on fence spike, well you get the idea. They had one wall where they all posted their latest renderings. Then there'd be a tour coming through, and they would take them all down. The next day, there'd be new ones. :P

animation studio out there. We'd usually do lewd things with our characters.Baby Herman in an S&M getup, Belle in a push up bra and fishnets, sequences (illustrated, obviously) called "under da sheets" instead of "under da sea", lyrics like "No one's dick's as incredibly think as Gaston's" or storyboards for "Pokeherhotass". Naturally, the studios ARE dominated by men. We didn't often come up with creative ways to kill our characters, but a friend of mine who animated Jar Jar Binks in "Phantom Menace" sure did! ;-)

Now, Snow White in push up bra and fishnets, on the other hand...

:rofl:




Seriously, have you tried any of the liberal dating sites? I remember Drinking Liberally talked about awhile back, and I'm guessing there're others... :shrug:

Animators working for the Mouse: as conservative as the rest of D****y? (geez I hope not...)

I think my buddy's cohorts decided Smurfs were particularly kill-worthy...

all we share in common is our disdain for BushCo. Plus, the guys who approach me on that site are often as old as my father!

Most of the people-including most of the managers-at the Mouse House are quite liberal and usually gay. We did have a fair number of militant fundie right wingers at the animation studio, but they only made up 5-10% of the studio population. And, of course, their illustrations were the lewdest of all!

I agree with your friend; Smurfs are indeed particularly kill worthy. I'll have to ask my buddy who worked on "My Little Pony; the Movie" how much character slaughter went on back then. ;-)

Surely there must be some divorced liberals in their late 30's-early 40's in southern Cal. Maybe they just haven't been lucky enough to meet you yet :9

And I guess you've tried match.com and the like; they have a checkbox for liberal/conservative right?

Sorry I'm not more help. I can confirm that the vast number of guys I know* are just clueless on how to treat women and how to behave on a date. Lotta jerks out there.


* Not guys I count as friends, you understand; they're more enlightened re women. Here I mean guys I've worked with or met.

I'm actually in Florida (we have a studio here too-or did). But my SoCal friends are mostly in the same boat too.

Yeah, I've tried several sites; the very WORST was aHarmony. Chock full of rabid conservatives who DON'T read profiles! The serviced "matched" people too; I'd always get short, obese, bald Christian conservatives who were standing in front of golf carts or an SUV. :shrug: Ugh.

So you're against Bush. Big whoop. So are most Democrats.

Would you be good company? That's what we middle-aged types want to know.

That's what we mean when we say that there are "no good men."

Most of the ones who are left over after we weed out the married men on the make and the closeted gay men lack imagination and social skills.

It's just a group where you get together and drink beer, and I met some of my best friends there. :shrug:

I'd love to see some off-color Disney spoofs! (I spent way too much time when my son was younger watching Disney films over and over.
I was so glad when he got to the age where he didn't want to see mainstream animated films anymore. (although I have to say that the CGI animations in wall-e were very clever)

:scared: I think I met a few like him when I was still dating. Imagine how upset they were to be told that no, thank you, I didn't want to meet them, and wouldn't even consider dating them.

I wish I had some sage advice. I haven't dated for about fifteen years now. At the same time, this might be nuts, but have you considered someone a little younger? Guys remain unmarried after age 35 for some good and compelling reasons. Also, I married a card-carrying nerd. They're everywhere, at least in Washington State.

Julie

This cuts across all humanity I think. It is non specific.

I've had various friends of other Nationalities who weren't always like that. I used to notice more of the "I, me, mine" syndrome among my entertainment industry colleagues, but now it's spread across the country like a virus.

It is pretty much my default expectation of how people communicate. It is especially obvious in casual environments and less obvious in formal ones. I definitely consider a date a time to put forward an effort to ask "you" based questions, but some people just aren't paying attention to themselves; even as they talk incessently ABOUT themselves.

Good luck.

If you are meeting online, try asking ahead of time how "they" show interest in another person. I guarantee you will hear about gifts and opening doors and buying dinner and romantic this and that. I expect few will say "ask questions to better understand them" or something.

ummm, because maybe he's, like, a loser?

I mean, geez. Showing up in that "outfit" doesn't scream that he really gives a shit about first impressions. And the not listening thing is a sign of immaturity not shyness.

It's actually pretty easy to talk to someone but the real thing is to listen (duh). That is pretty much the #1 rule of dating. That said, there are "people" talkers (gossip, celebrities), "things" talkers (cars, possessions), and "ideas" talkers. He sounds like a "things". The best way (and potentially most perilous) is to get into ideas - where the REAL personalities and feelings reside. That's the kind of date where you wind up talking all night.....

But then what do I know.

in my age bracket; what I've described, and the bitter, angry divorcee who still refers to his ex-wife as "Hitler" and obviously isn't ready to move on.

and i don't get second dates, either...

Something that they can put on their arms to show off to the friends, something that can entertain them when they're bored, something that will make them feel good.

It's the same thing they get from the TV; and if the TV could fuck, they'd have no need to date, except maybe to find someone to have babies with so that their "name" can continue.

Not all men, but it seems like a lot of men really look at a woman as nothing more than a TV that fucks.

But it would not help.

Awfully, awfully shallow.

I am reading the Illuminatus Trilogy again and it just seems more plausible then ever. We are surrounded by robots who no longer have functioning consciousness.

in "Bowling for Columbine", which was something like "If you don't wear the right clothes you don't fit in, if you don't drink the right soda, own the right watch or drive the right car, the girl won't fuck you. It's all about consumerism; it creates a culture of fear" . Most people I meet have NO IDEA what's going on in the world. They don't care about Iraq, or Georgia (they may not have even heard of it), or the shredding of our civil liberties over the past eight years, and they never think about the environment or climate change or Darfur. They don't have their own theories about ANYTHING; they just regurgitate talking points from the Mainstream Media. If you ask them something simple, like what they thought about "the Dark Knight", they'll quote a review they saw on television. No original thought or ideas. It's actually pretty scary.

I've often wondered if that was the truth but to hear you tell it depresses the shit out of me!

I have a friend who is always bashing men with statements like that and I always feel like I have to defend you guys because I can't believe that is true of all of you! The immature ones, sure, but all? Crikey. I don't want to believe it! *fingers in my ears*

As a female, if I had posted that I'd get run out of DU!

There are some wonderful men out there - like me, for instance - who want a relationship, and see their spouses/SOs as an extension of who they are and something precious.

But it's been my experience that men like us are few and far between (and also generally are to be found at comic book conventions, the anime/science-fiction sections of video rental stores, bookstores, home brewer gatherings, and the kinds of places that people go to to think).

and you are right in that is the kind of venue where people go to think. But there are even more fanboys there who think they are entitled to a Laura Croft lookalike. Never mind that they resemble the people in WALL-E, but she better look HAWT!

However, I'm not going to generalize but say that mature men are everywhere -- one just has to look for them and pray some smart woman didn't find him first.

I sure don't want to turn this into a sex thread, but I *do* have a fairly voracious appetite which the few men I have been seriously involved with have very much appreciated.But if there's no intellectual stimulation, then you can't expect much else to follow and you certainly can't expect anything to last. From what you're saying most guys are just too damn lazy and shallow to even make the effort, which is fairly pathetic (though hardly surprising given my last dozen dating experiences). However, it does help explain why all those shallow, mean spirited bimbos are never alone.

Now that we know you all ALSO have urges, it is more waiting than courting. If you don't want "it" someone else will.

I am sort of kidding. I think we ALL give up sex too easily. If we all held back more, perhaps our collective IQs would actually go up a bit. People might explore themselves artistically instead of spraying their creative urges all over in an orgy of meaningless flesh and friction.

Men and women. You can't write a funnier comedy.

Unfortunately, most women aren't really that much better. One out of every ten dates you MIGHT find someone who gives a shit what you think or cares about more than just looks, money or flashy cars. I was getting downright cynical before I met my gf.

Not that I was a good guy or anything. If I sensed the women I was dating was dumb or shallow, I'd mimic. Better getting some play, I guess, then going home and despairing for the human race. This behaviour would often lead to meta-analyzing, however, as I wondered if by acting shallow, maybe I WAS a shallow fucking bastard.

Ah well.

housekeeper/nursemaid who fucks.

I swear, I have experienced the same thing with men.

:hug:

meet at the Denny's - he's in shorts, flip-flops and a wifebeater. He's hairy and unattractive. he looks at em and says "hmmm..turquoise or red.."

I said huh?

He says "oh nothing just wondering which color lingirie would look better on you"

Then he proceeds to try to convert me to libertarianism. Haven't been on an "internet" date since.

I think tho - msot guys go with the resume stuff because they are nervous and what else do you talk to a stranger about. You can try listening and asking clarification on points that interest you, and then share your experiences as well.

of course if he won't let you get a word in edgewise - time to go.

My friends signed me up for DemocraticSingles.net when my ex-fiance decided he didn't love me anymore and left. Meet some cool people on there, some I still correspond with.

My first Match.com date was something they write horror stories about...haha

My last internet date was in November 2006, I ended up marrying him this past April. In between the first and the last, I should write a book...

My favorite question was always, "Do I look like my picture?" In most cases NO! Why do men need to lie about their height? Do they think we won't figure out that the are not 5'8 when we meet them, and they are shorter then we are at 5'4?

my last internet friend (not from the usual dating sites) and i clicked, but we're having troubles now and I had to cut it short. Still on the fence on whether it's permanent tho - I'm having a tough time letting him go.

But yeah - the fake pictures? The average height? The hats?

not fooling anyone.

Altho my last boy's pictures were completely out of date or from too far away but he turned out to be a cutie anyway. And his personality was spot on. Even tho he votes republican. *sigh*

which site did you meet him on?

A woman I know went on over TWO HUNDRED internet dates before finding her husband. I don't think that I have that sort of intestinal fortitude!

lavalife.com. I had tried match.com, he had tried eharmony.

I liked lavalife's payments. It was not monthly, you bought credits for what you were going to use. So I didn't feel pressured to have to meet and date on a websites schedule!

Good luck, you'll find the one! I kissed a lot of frogs before my prince showed up. I already owned a white horse, my prince showed up in a red pickup truck!

Although I've had experiences like yours when I've gone on dates, I've noticed that a lot of guys who I am not dating and have no interest in dating will blather on and on about themselves if given the chance (I'm a guy by the way). There are some men that I know that I will simply avoid because they talk incessantly about themselves and ask no questions about me and what's going on in my life. I befriended a person like this several months ago and even started a thread about him here. Our friendship did not survive.

I noticed something in your post that reminds me of something that I used to often do: You asked a lot of questions. And while this is a good and natural thing to do, I think it's important to strike a good balance between asking questions and "volunteering" information about yourself. Unfortunately, it's often the case that I feel the need to volunteer information because I'm not being asked for it. On the other hand, I also reach a tipping point at which I'm reluctant to ask any more questions because I know I'll get a long-winded answer and no reciprocal question.

All in all, I don't date much anymore. And I pick my friends very carefully.

and again. It's seems like a societal trend which shows no signs of reversing; it's just spreading like a disease. Whenever I volunteer information about myself with these guys, they generally just bring the subject right back to themselves. Or they don't comment at all on what I've said and start a whole new topic. I've seen the same with a few women that I've met, but mostly it seems to be a male thing. And yeah, too many questions can sometimes mean an extra hour of your life being lost to these bores!

You'd have to interrogate me to get me to say anything more than one syllable at a time unless you got me talking about work or politics.

"how (you) can get these guys to engage in real conversation..." you're simply meeting the wrong guys.

As for suggestions on how you can, instead, meet the right guys? I don't have any.

But you're an intelligent, talented, and attractive woman. I can't believe a decent guy won't show up sooner or later.

Redstone

Men yapping on about themselves is just their way of trying to engage you so you'll throw out info on yourself as well. They don't ask questions: they impart information and expect us to do the same. That's how they talk to each other.

As for my personal stories about online dating--they would make straight hair curl and curly hair stand on end! But here's the one thing that stands out most in my mind:

Watch out for the phrase "wants a woman with a sense of humor". To me, being Jewish and all, I figure a sense of humor means I crack very entertaining, sarcastic jokes that keep people in stitches and reference the zeitgeist a lot. But to a man, a sense of humor means you're gonna laugh a HIS funny, sarcastic cracks and make sure you never overshadow him. Especially in a group of his friends.

Seriously, I've been dropped like a hot turd for "showing up" my date by being funnier than he. I see it as the last bastion of sexism.

I saw the ad on the back of my UU newsletter. Being inclusive, they won't rag on you if you're not one. :P

:-)

Lots of liberal educated folks there.

www.uua.org

I just got back from a date about an hour ago (third one I've met through OKCupid). She was surprised that I listened to her as much as I did, because apparently I'm a pretty aggressive talker on the phone. (I hadn't realized that) Regardless, it doesn't look like it will go in a romantic direction, even though I think she wants to pursue a friendship.

It's just dating. People should have fun with it and not stress out. Rejection sucks, but it's also a good thing because it prevents you from being with somebody who isn't compatible with you and gives you the opportunity to find someone else you are compatible with.

I hate talking about myself. Oddly enough, no-one has ever noticed that I'm not talking about myself, since most people love hearing themselves talk. I've only ever had 1 date notice that I never talk about myself. ONE! lol.

Other than that, talking is over-rated. I like to take ladies to DO stuff...coffee shops are boring after awhile.

I took a date wall-climbing once.....really recommded. You have fun, then you can go get drinks later while you recover your sore muscles.

Oh, and I wonder if, for some guys, talking about their money and cars actually works for them. Did you get the feeling that he was succesful with women? Or was he sort of loserish?

Do you think that maybe the majority of guys are too influenced by TV or something?

I am a guy, but I don't understand other men very well.

it was the first speed dating experience for either of us, and things have been going incredibly well...she's an amazing person!

Not to sound like a salesperson, but I think the nice thing about speed dating is giving you that instant barometer as to whether genuine chemistry exists, at least at a rather superficial level. We actually didn't go out on a "real date" for over a month after that initial meeting, choosing to just speak on the phone/share e-mails, in an effort to learn more about each other. There were some eerie similarities in a few of our experiences growing up, and this really allowed us to open up to each other...

I certainly can't guarantee success if you were to try that form of dating, but I'm glad I was willing to step outside my comfort zone to see what could happen.

You are very attractive with a very pretty face. I have to think many of these guys are attempting to impress you, because they feel that someone as hot as you needs to be impressed. Perhaps what you need to do is give them another date or two and see if they start to act normally after they get relaxed a bit.

:blush:
I grew up with a facial deformity and speech impairment that have since been fixed, but I'm still someone who doesn't like being looked at very much. And I sure dislike it when anyone tried to impress myself or the public at large. It's just...sad. I usually let them know in my profile that I have my own income and home and am just not into shopping or material things. I find intellectual curiosity and creative thinking a turn on, not "stuff" or income. But when it's really obvious that they DO think that their possessions are of the utmost importance and show zero curiosity about anything at all...well, that 's a pretty big strike. I have met the nervous types and that I let slide completely. I do what I can to make them laugh and put them at ease, but sometimes that kind of backfires and they proposition me right away, which is a real turn off. I just think that it's time to look for some new places to find men. I wish those new places could be someplace like, I dunno, New Zealand or Canada!

get involved in a few volunteer activities. Things like community theater (they need more than just actors), habitat of humanity, so local conservation group etc are all good choices. It's been my experience that people who are will to give their time and effort are people who are not caught up in the material world.

The men are either college aged or over 65 (I'm in Florida). Plus, the goal of the group activities is generally to get something done ASAP, so nobody has much of any time to get to know anyone else.

I recall one time, years ago, I was working for habitat for humanity and having an OK time of it when a younger, scantily clad brunette showed up. Every man in the area-young and old-surrounded her like a pack of voracious wolves, so there were certainly a few guys there on the make. I ended up teaching myself how to nail up siding, thank you very much! From that point on I never volunteered for anything with the delusion that I might "meet interesting people" while doing it. Nope, I volunteer to get something done like the other 90%.

I think the organizations are better for those looking for a social benefit.

The standard opening line among graduate students is "What department are you in?"

I felt as if I should carry a tape recorder, because my answer ("linguistics") always led to the same two questions:

"How many languages do you know?"
"Are you going to be an interpreter at the UN?"

I took to saying, "I'm not going to tell you."

The ones who couldn't handle that were obviously not keepers. The ones who felt challenged by it and knew how to talk beyond clichés were the ones worth pursuing further.

If I ever get another date who starts going on and on about his house and car and job as an insurance salesman, I'm going to say, "Look, I've got my own place to live, my own car, and my own job. What do you REALLY have to offer? Do you ever think about anything that the mass media haven't put into your head?"

But they'd probably run for the hills before saying anything at all!

My cousin, a very accomplished executive producer in Hollywood who is on the board of directors with countless organizations, is a very self assured and poised woman. She always says in her somehow polite and non-threatening way "I know what I have to offer, but what do you bring to the table"? Oddly enough she has a half dozen highly eligible men pursuing her at any given time. When we last spoke she was seeing a Space Shuttle commander, a stuntman, an FBI agent, and a corporate executive who was also a tribal elder (she's also a Native American). I'm nowhere near as self confident as she is so I could never pull off the same thing, though it would be nice!

...from the advice columnist (I forget which one it was) who said that dating after a certain age was to be approached like the Democratic primary: with complete confidence. I actually hung that comment up on the wall, so maybe when I get home tonight, I can post it here.

The only woman I've dated and married was one that I got to know from riding the bus at my job were I worked for 5 months and was not interested in anyone. Plus the fact we lived in close proximity of each other.

I never asked anyone out. It wasn't that I didn't think I could be a good significant other wasn't the issue. I was intimatitated maybe because I didn't have a sister or any type of father figure :shrug: Anyways the only woman prior was when I lived in Flagstaff for 6 months in High School she became my best friend and even though he she had other boyfriends, who weren't anygood. During the meantime I had 2 girls who were best friends that both wanted to be with me and asked which one I would pick. I never had anything further with any of them because I left soon after the my friend who I never saw after that was probaly the most truest person ever in my life but never saw her after that. Anyways,

When I first met my wife, I put myself under so much pressure that I was afraid of cracking. We made many plans but she opted for others at the last minute, I was nice trying not to lose this one. Eventually she started falling in love with me quickly as I was. I was under so much pressure by myself like carefully saying everything not to stir up anything. Like when the first time she became upset with me mainly because she was in a bad mood and I said the wrong thing I cried. Being that sensitive I was sure I lost her.

Long story short this woman stuck with me even put up with me. However seemingly meaningless moves have gotten me to know her the way I have with my unwillingness to approach a woman who I was interested in wouldn't of been possible. The biggest move I made was near our shift ending, she talked to me a prior 2 times. She walked by me and said "hi" and kept walking, I said "hi" pack and I realized the impact from experiences of mine and simply stopped her dead in her tracks and asked her what she was doing sometime later in which something was arranged to see each other away from work.

My point is I can't speak for them personally, but without any background you have no idea why some might act the way they do.

I listened and asked questions. I still do listen. My wife/girlfriend and I have
been together 14 years. Lots of guys who are single at a certain age are single
for a reason. They are egotistical and think the sun rises and sets on them. I have
two female friends 38, and 45, who first date all the time and rarely get to the
second date. The guys who will listen and care are locked down for the most part.