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Fountain79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-20-09 10:08 PM
Original message
Boxing or Mixed Martial Arts?
I grew up watching boxing as a kid. I used to love watching Iron Mike knock guys out and was devastated when he got knocked out by Buster Douglas. As I grew up I turned away from boxing and I have of late been enjoying MMA a lot more. I like the different fighting styles that are used and the fact that in many ways it is safer than boxing.(Seriously!) What do you think?
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LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-20-09 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. Iron Mike getting KOed was the death knell for boxing.
That being said, I am a huge boxing fan and will always be. The sad thing is though that as the heavy weight class goes, so does all of boxing. There just isn't any talent in the heavy weight class. Any time Nikolay Valuev is taken as a serious contender, boxing is in a sad state. I wish another Tyson would come along and revitalize the sport.

Personally, I'm not a fan of MMA. It's too chaotic and there is too much luck involved.
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Mojambo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-20-09 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. Definitely MMA
The ground game makes the difference.

There's a much wider clash of styles and disciplines in MMA.

Karate, Judo, BJJ, Wrestling, Boxing, Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Brawling...

BTW, the new UFC console game is amaaaaaazing!
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Fountain79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-20-09 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I wish I had the game console for it...
looks interesting.
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Mojambo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-20-09 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I'm amazed they got the ground game right.
It's really quite something.

I absolutely messed up Diego Sanchez's face with vicious Kenny Florian elbows from the mount last night.

Fun stuff.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 05:21 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. Good, I can't stand Sanchez!
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-20-09 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. MMA
Definitely.
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-20-09 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
6. I've been turned off to MMA ever since I watched an armless and legless person try to fight
Edited on Wed May-20-09 10:52 PM by DS1
I felt sorry for him and his competitor, who was basically reduced to knocking out a guy who should have never been there in the first place.

this is it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFWCZJyP1vE
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Fountain79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-20-09 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Wha???
When/Where was this?
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Mojambo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. That was a disgrace
But it had very little to do with mainstream MMA.

It was an unsanctioned freak show held in a state without any of the regulations that make MMA a legitimate sport.

I never watched the fight and never will, but I thought I heard the fight went to a decision, not a KO finish.

That's not MMA and most, if not all, mainstream fans, promoters, and athletes involved in the sport condemned it.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. That was no more mma than a bar fight is boxing
Edited on Thu May-21-09 05:19 AM by LostinVA
The UFC and its "minor leagues" are chockful of great athletes, inluding quite a few Olympic participants, with strit weight classes and safety regulations.
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
9. Boxing, like Greco-Roman Wrestling, is a sport
MMA, like freestyle wrestling, is little more than beating the shit out of a guy until he can't fight anymore.

Boxing, as brutal as it is, has some finesse. MMA is just two guys throwing whatever they hell they have at the other guy until he's too fucked up to stand. MMA is one step removed from those Tough Man contests that are popular in blue collar towns, where unemployed factory workers jump into a ring for the chance to win a couple thousand bucks for pummeling the living crap out of their fellow ex-line worker.

I don't like Boxing, but at least it's a sport with some finesse. MMA is little more than organized barbarism.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 05:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. I don't think you understand what MMA is
It IS a sport, and the elite UFC fighters are incredible athletes -- many were top-level and/or Olympic wrestlers, BJJ black belts, and decent strikers. It is safer than Boxing and is way more "chesslike."

It is nothing at all like "Tough Man" contests.

I don't think you've seen real MMA since the unsanctioned days before Dana White.
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Fountain79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
27. I disagree...
Even in the chaotic times of the UFC with no weight classes and no gloves there was a level of strategy involved and hardly a "Tough Man" contest. If you take a person like Royce Gracie, who was 6'1 and 170 pounds but was able to beat people bigger than him simply because of his technique and training, than that's hardly "beating the shit out of a guy until he can't fight anymore".

You could take someone really big and strong like Brock Lesner, 6'3 300 pounds, and he still lost to a more skilled jijitsu fighter.

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Mojambo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
33. Respectfully, your view of MMA is quite outdated. n/t
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
10. Boxing, with the caveat that I've probably never seen good MMA
Most of the shit on cable seems to be Spike TV-type "XTREME BRUTAL CAGE BRAWL #237!!!!!!!!!!!!! HOLY SHIT THIS IS SO XTREME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Boxing, at least, has some dignity. Well, most of the time.

I would be interested in watching mainstream MMA - as in the actual sport with rules - though, just to give it a chance.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
11. Still like up to middleweight boxing, but
MMA ROCKS!!!
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
12. Neither. I don't understand folks wanting to see people hurt other people.
For money or accolades. It has so very little (to the masses) to do about style. It's just about watching people hurt other people, and maybe making money off it.

Kind of like dogfighting, except at least the people had a choice.
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Fountain79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #12
29. Hmmm......
I think it's just like any sport. I could list reasons why I like both but if it doesn't interest, then it doesn't interest you. I can't watch golf on tv but I know people who love it. I don't even like to watch baseball on tv but I love going to a game.

I do think there is an appeal to our baser instincts in watching sports such as boxing and mma but I hardly see it as just "watching people hurt other people". For me what interest me about MMA is watching the culmination of wisdom and training of different fighting styles and viewing them in a pratical setting.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 05:18 AM
Response to Original message
14. In the first boxing match I watched, "Boom boom" Mancini killed Duk Koo Kim
In the first horse race I watched, last year's Kentucky Derby, one of the competitors broke a leg and they had to put it down.

Should I attend the next Republican debate?

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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 05:20 AM
Response to Original message
16. MMA -- love it!
Safer and more exciting than boxing, with way more skilled -- and skillful -- athletes.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 06:47 AM
Response to Original message
18. They'll never call mixed martial arts, "The Sweet Science"
Edited on Thu May-21-09 06:49 AM by HamdenRice
I guess that's why I don't find it that interesting -- or at least not inspiring.

I think that's because they have to master so many different disciplines, it becomes obvious that they are not great at some of them -- except maybe "ground and pound."

There is not a single MMA fighter who could survive a few rounds of pure boxing with any professional boxing contender. I get the feeling that none of these guys even know what it is to slip a punch. I don't think there is a single MMA fighter who could survive a few rounds of kick boxing with any professional kick boxing contender.

Their striking is incredibly sloppy. The kicks are sloppy.

In his prime, Sugar Ray Leonard would not just have beaten any MMA fighter in the same weight class; he would have utterly confused and outclassed him.

In stand up karate, Bruce Lee would have finished off any of those guys in about 15 seconds.

As violent as boxing is, there is something incredibly elegant about it, especially in the non heavy weight classes. Same with some of the other unmixed martial arts.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Bruce Lee didn't do karate
He started with Wing Chun as a kid, then developed his own martial art, Jeet Kune Do.

Both are VERY different than karate.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. Bruce Lee "did" everything, although correct, he did not teach or espouse karate
Edited on Thu May-21-09 09:28 AM by HamdenRice
He even studied western boxing (and was a local champ) and European fencing. I mention karate because that's a discipline that currently has lots of tournaments -- of the kind I could imagine Bruce being paired with an MMA practitioner.

I doubt you could get an MMA practitioner (or any reasonable sane person) to challenge Bruce Lee in the martial art that Lee invented.

The main point is that no one in MMA has anywhere near the level of Bruce Lee's skill or sophistication.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Yeah, but no one in anything had near the level of Bruce Lee's skill
Edited on Thu May-21-09 09:30 AM by HarukaTheTrophyWife
MMA, karate, whatever, I wouldn't put them up against Bruce Lee in a JKD match.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Since Bruce did western boxing (1958 amateur champion), I would like to have seen
Edited on Thu May-21-09 10:20 AM by HamdenRice
Lee boxing Sugar Ray Leonard at the time Ray fought Wilfredo Benitez (1979).

Not sure who would have one that one. I remember watching that fight in college and it was surreal. It was like watching a science fiction movie (The Flash) because you could not see their fists -- both Ray and Wilfredo were so fast that their gloves were just blurs.

I think Sugar Ray of 79 could have beaten Lee in his prime in pure boxing -- or for that matter, almost anyone in history at his weight class. Even though he was considered the greatest fighter of the 80s, he was superhuman in his art early pro career -- kind of the way we think of Bruce as being superhuman.

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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #18
28. And Arnold Palmer, in his prime, would beat a MMA guy in golf
Boxing and MMA are different sports.

Bruce Lee would not stand a chance against an elite MMA fighter. It has been proven, repeatedly, that fighters in a single discipline lose fights to MMA fighters. The whole point of the UFC was to compare various fighting styles against each other. Brazilian Ju Jitsu won. Then some wrestlers won. Now the winners mix BJJ, wrestling, boxing, muy thai and a dozen other things.

I used to box but now I'm more of a MMA guy. (Watching, not doing. I'm 40, I'd get killed.)
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Not at all an analogous comparison
Edited on Thu May-21-09 10:51 AM by HamdenRice
Boxing is a subset of the skillset that MMA fighters bring to MMA. You have to be able to box to compete in MMA.

Golf is not a subset of the skillset that MMA fighters bring to MMA.

The point is, therefore, that the boxing that MMA fighters do is quite unimpressive and nowhere near the skill level that "real" boxers have.
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Fountain79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. I disagree...
Edited on Thu May-21-09 10:58 AM by Fountain79
There are some MMA fighters that are quite good punchers or "strikers" as they like to call them. You could make the argument that a person who predominately uses Brazilian Jujitsu wouldn't stand a chance in a boxing match which would make sense, they are completely different styles of fighting. However the same argument could be made for a boxer suddenly putting himself in a Brazilian Jujitsu tournament.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. I don't think we disagree as much as you think. But I do think that MMA is an "anti-sport".
Sports is basically about achieving a physical goal through, or despite, artificial limitations. Boxing is different from MMA because of what boxing does not allow.

Imagine starting a basket ball tournament and then saying, Oh, by the way, we won't be calling fouls. And if you like, you can bring a switchblade. And a Uzi. Would we ever have seen the art of Michael Jordan?

Sport is about winning with one hand tied behind your back -- the rules, the equipment, the limitations. Even running, that most natural of sports, becomes incredibly artificial because it specifies exact distances, so that training for a 10K is radically different from training for 100 meters or a marathon.

MMA is a Darwinian "non-sport." It takes all these highly stylized martial arts and says to the fighters, you can use all of them, and there are almost no rules.

I agree that a boxer would not have a chance against a ju jitsu fighter in a ju jitsu match; and a ju jitsu fighter would not have a chance against a boxer in a boxing match. The MMA fighter is supposed to be both.

But MMA fighters certainly are lousy boxers, and all that boxing becomes in MMA is a sort of prelude to wrestling, a possible penalty if you don't properly avoid the fists before the takedown, or a psychological risk if you are the worse boxer and get snookered into "standing up," when you don't have the skill.

In a Darwinian environment of "vale tudo" (everything counts, everything is allowed), you may find which techniques trump which. The result is that most fights end with a very "inelegant" form of "ground and pound."

Horizontal boxing. While the winner sits on the losers chest.

But that's hardly what sport is about -- winning at a physical endeavor through elaborate restrictions, rules and limitation, which is the same thing as saying winning through prodigious exercise of narrow, honed skill.

Sure, MMA tells us which MA trumps which when there are no rules. But that just makes it "anti-sport."

MMA was the perfect "anti-sport" for the recent, late and not lamented period of free market, no rules, deregulated, Darwinian capitalist excess, just as baseball, boxing, and basketball were the ultimate sports for the era of highly regulated post New Deal, working man, mixed system, social capitalism.

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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. What you call the elegance of boxing is an artifact of the rules
MMA has different rules so it necessarily will look different. Pride looked different than UFC since the rules were different.

In MMA one has to worry about being taken to the ground and also worry about being kicked. Your stance will be different - more squared up with wider feet in MMA than boxing. When you must stand in that position your punching will look different - boxing has a narrower stance which allows more rotation at the waist for better punching. But the same stance in MMA means you will end up on your back with someone sitting on your chest elbowing you in the head or breaking your arm.

MMA is a different sport than boxing just as golf is different.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 07:20 AM
Response to Original message
20. still boxing
i can't really get into MMA...of course, if boxing didn't absolutely kill themselves with 25 years of corruption and dysfunction, MMA never would have risen to prominence...there are a lot of parallels between this and the decline of Indycar/rise of NASCAR in the 90s...

I think reformed, reorganized, unified boxing could still be very big...
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SoxFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
21. Boxing
Boxing: the sweet science

MMA: An outlet for the repressed homoerotic urges of frat boys and knuckleheads.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Actually, most MMA fighters are college educated
And, they don't end up sounding punch drunk like boxers.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
23. The MMA has never contained Thimerosal
True fact.
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jakefrep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
34. Boxing
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Tektonik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
36. MMA is boring, I almost threw my shoe at how bad the last pay per view was
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
37. Neither

I understand very well the skill involved in intelligent Western boxing but I've always had almost zero interest in watching it it other than being enthralled by Ali when I was a kid (and still an admirer of his....also, I sometimes surprise myself with how compelling 'boxing movies' can be, even if a good number of them share many familiar plot points). I never wanted to learn how to box, either, although when I first sparred against a skilled boxer and he bloodied my nose I realized that my martial arts training to that point hadn't prepared me so well to face such an opponent.

I can't stand MMA as a subculture -- as a concept it's okay because it's no different in base philosophy, style-wise, than what Bruce Lee was saying in the '60s and what the Shaolin and other fighters were doing thousands of years ago, which is basically taking what worked and mixing stuff up. The reason I have a fairly visceral reaction to MMA is twofold, I think: (i) I first saw it emerge in something like its current form with the first UFC bouts, and was disgusted by the attitudes on display and (ii) I'm a traditional martial artist, primarily in Chinese styles. The second informs the first, really.

I have no doubt that many MMA enthusiasts are great fighters, but I have long resented them being lumped in with martial artists because it seemed (and here I admit that my views on this are based in the '90s MMA explosion, and for all I know now MMA types tend to be less objectionable in this respect) that they tend to be at odds with the most important aspects promoted by traditional martial arts of the Asian traditions, basically the majority of what people understand as 'martial arts' that can ultimately trace its origins back to Shaolin, Wudang, or older sources. There were practical reasons why those old dead Chinese dudes codified a system of behavior and philosophy to go along with the physical form of their martial arts, and without that tradition (humility being a big one) it's just fighting. As I said, some loudmouth braggart of a UFC type may well be a fearsome fighter, may well be more formidable than many true masters of traditional martial arts, but being a blowhard meataxe who can rip the beating heart out of an opponent has little to do with martial arts -- traditional martial arts evolved from practical necessity but, ultimately, what the fighting arts became had less to do with actual fighting than might be expected. That's especially so now when, for a great many situations in which you'd actually have to defend your life or somebody else's, traditional martial arts have little or no direct relevance (physically, I mean...the mental and emotional, and even spiritual, benefits of martial arts training could still make all the difference and, of course, in a hopeless situation in which you're literally outgunned, it's perhaps better to have a minuscule chance than no chance at all).

So there you go. Basically, I'm offended by the attitude of a great many MMA practitioners. Again, I may be mired in a misunderstanding based on the early days of the movement here in the US, but because of my job and where I do it I've had a lot of recent contact with MMA fans and exponents and the predominant vibe seems to be a hyper-testosterone-charged egofest based on the ability to cause physical pain (I have to say, though, that I've met some actual fighters and for the most part they do seem pretty decent, at least 'offstage'). The braggadocio fit Ali well, but I have a problem with it being applied to disciplines with roots in arts for which such behavior was anathema (yep, when Gracie jiujitsu was all the rage the BJJ proponents were every bit as bad, and led the way in establishing the tone). It's an extremely American thing -- as in Ugly American -- and it just makes my skin crawl. 'Regular' martial arts, beyond the MMA realm, has suffered enough in this country in terms of too many 'karate' (usually Tae Kwon Do) schools being belt mills, where you pay your money and you get your pretty colored belt and an unearned boost to the self esteem (ego), and in terms of instructors -- usually of spurious lineage -- who set themselves up so as to feed their egos and wallets in similar proportion while promoting the new, Americanized, anti-humble martial arts in which it's survival of the fittest, baby. No mercy.

One thing I think MMA did in the '90s (well, UFC, anyway) was hint that a lot of fights end up on the ground. That's likely true, despite the fact that those events tended to be skewed toward a BJJ win. I've never been very adept at groundfighting -- wrestling, anyway -- even before I started formal martial arts training. I could probably benefit from exploring that aspect of fighting more but, really, it's never interested me at all and I never did get into martial arts in the first place to become a fighter or adept at self-defense. I've since spent a lot of time training to fight, of course (I mean, beyond the basics...specialized fight training, and so on) but the emphasis has always been on staying off the ground, takedowns and the like aside, and using angles, strikes, and chin na (nerve attacks and the like, and grappling). Basically, my strategy in a real street fight would be to explode and knock the hell out of the bad guy as quickly and efficiently as possible, relying on speed to not let him get a grip on me, and then flee the scene. I'm strong and fast, with long arms and legs, and I have a lot of advantages because I'm big but learned how to fight like a small person, infighting included, with my prime weakness being not much in the way of defense against a wrestler other than hoping I'm fast enough and elusive enough to avoid their grip. Wrestlers are my Kryptonite, my only consolation being that if you don't go near a wrestler you're not going to get locked up by one....again, proof that the ultimate martial art is either not to be there at the time (tai chi's central tenet, if you ask me) or to get really good at running. I'd likely be at a significant disadvantage on the ground, against a dedicated wrestler or very good MMA fighter (and, by the way, I DID end up on the ground in a real fight, and almost lost the advantage I'd pushed that took the mofo down in the first place because he was one strong SOB and it took a lot of additional pain infliction before I could get him to loosen his grip and let me get back to my feet). But, again, that's not the point...self-defense ability is a decided bonus of what I've studied, and I'm arguably equipped to handle more than the average person, but if I really wanted to defend myself in this day and age I need to be toting a gun rather than relying on my Fists of Fury. Besides, I have had cause to use my martial arts skills a good numbe rof times in this town, as a result of my work here, and every time the end result was defusing a situation without anyone losing blood or body parts. Again, I'm not denying the proficiency of well-trained MMA types in a fight, I'm just far from being a fan of the kind of attitude that seems too prevalent in those circles, at least in this country.

Given that I've gone on about this way more than intended, I should probably additionally note that I'm not only not averse to MMA but have trained in mixtures of systems that, although not organized under the MMA label, are essentially the same. For example, one of my prime teachers taught me five-animals style kung fu as the core of my training but along the way he also taught me at least some of the elements of mok gar, wing chun, seven-star mantis, and related styles, and in the special fighting classes he included inputs from many other martial approaches (boxing included) assimilated by him and by his teachers -- basically, it wasn't JKD but it looked a lot like it, yet another example of inevitable convergence. Same with another teacher I had who primarily taught me Fukien white crane but also threw in a bit of the very complementary hsing-i, pakua, Chen tai chi, and Wah Lum mantis. Yet another instructor taught me northern Shaolin (the Ku Yu Cheung tradition) but included Wah Lum mantis, older Shaolin forms, and - in the fighting classes that were perhaps the most intense physical exercise I've ever endured (anyone who's studied martial arts at all might appreciate what that means) -- a personal style that drew heavily on the Goju-ryu and other hard-core karate that he'd originally done and that was the style of his local associates but that basically mixed up everything into one pretty amazing mix. One of his senior students also taught us some of the basics of Israeli krav maga, a MMA if ever there was one. Heck, look at my own martial arts résumé and (unfortunately, in that I tend to move to another part of the world just when things start getting interesting in the style) it's a fairly eclectic mix that includes everything from tae kwon do and tang soo do to white eyebrow (nasty stuff!) kung fu, and if I have a personal fighting style it's inevitably informed by everything I've learned...it's a MMA! And, yeah, I love training to fight and light- to full-contact sparring, even if there're an awful lot of things that really are (some MMA types seem to scoff at this kind of assertion) too dangerous to roll out for anything but the literal fight to the death. But, to me, fighting's a series of high-speed problem-solving exercises (when you get the answer wrong, you get whacked) and not something to be sought in 'real life,' and it takes a definite back seat to the empty-hand and weapons forms that are the heart and soul of traditional martial arts. Then there're all the intangibles, the parts of it all that count the most (internally), and to some extent that may be perhaps best understood by training in martial arts yourself.

As I said, conceptually I think MMA is not only eminently sensible but is inevitable and the only real way to maintain an effective fighting system (or non-system). 'Traditional' does not and should not mean fixed, or static. I kind of appreciate having a relatively entrenched starting point, in the forms and so on, but the martial arts are and always have been dynamic and even in the most 'traditional' styles you'll find considerable drift and divergence from what was taught hundreds or thousands of years ago. You just need to look at Jeet Kune Do (and Jun Fan, or whatever) to see the inherent difficulties in systematizing an open-source personal fighting approach though, and JKD has been afflicted with some of the factionalism that's particularly apparent in wing chun and in the remnants of the late, great Ed Parker's kenpo system (in most cases because ego or profit got in the way...good luck to martial arts instructors in making ANYTHING from their efforts, fiscally, but we all know some are in it for the money and engage in predatory practices to realize that goal). Even 'traditional' systems like those I've studies ultimately lead to a personal style within each student that, if they ever start their own school, will result in differences from the source being amplified with each generation of students, even if only as a natural consequence of emphasis on the parts of the art that fit the individual instructor's temperament and body (and, of course, sometimes THEIR teachers change what they teach as they grow older). Bruce Lee, as one example, merely accelerated this natural process within his own life by consciously mixing styles that, although hardly fixed (as revealed by the insistence of a multitude of Yip Man's students who claim to hold the keys to the only true wing chun style, all of them noticeably different), were evolving very gradually. He didn't come from nowhere; he came from a background of traditional arts. And if his is essentially a MMA system, or set of systems (concepts, really), I think it's interesting how his students are not known for being self-aggrandizing blowhards who loudly proclaim their superiority. Going back beyond Bruce, Wong Long, the alleged founder of the original mantis style, was adept at Shaolin kung fu (not a very specific term, I hasten to add: Shaolin, even within the original northern temple, was analogous to a university of martial arts and family and regional styles from all over China ended up there and were mixed and refined...MMA!) and was said to base his mantis style on the footwork of apes and the handwork of the mantis. Similarly, further back in the mists of time, Yue Fei mixed ancient military styles with other source, including a monk's style named faan tzi, to create for the battlefield the eagle claw system that's still practiced today. MMA is old news. It works. And if it doesn't, it adapts to work. I just don't like the concessions that've lately been made to Americans' apparent need to loudly proclaim how 'bad' they are...even if they are.

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Fountain79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. A very well thought out post but to point out one point you made...
Part of your argument is that MMA is a product of American Culture, which I think ignores a few points:

1. The original UFC events were started by Gracie family, who of course were Brazilian.
2. Part of the origin of UFC comes from vale tudo which again...is Brazilian.
3. The fan base itself has a growing international following, to the point that some events sell bigger outside the U.S. than in it. Dana White has even commented on countries such as Canada having some of the most rabid MMA fans.
4. Perhaps I am misreading your summation, but it seems that part of your contention with MMA is a difference in philosophy of the purpose of martial arts. Whereas some view martial arts as more of a way of living, others, like myself, are more interested in the practical aspects of it. Basically is what I am learning really going to help in a real life situation?


I could be wrong but those are my thoughts
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Nope, I think you're

right.

1. Yep, the Gracies are Brazilian, but the UFC got off the ground once they'd established BJJ here in the US and was in collaboration with an American entrepreneur. Anyway, I didn't mean that the UFC, and certainly not the wider arena of MMA, was necessarily a byproduct of US culture (if anything, even in its competitive aspects, it's more directly a Japanese byproduct) but that the attitude was one exemplified most strongly by many in this country.

2. Yep, though the original art (and it's not jujitsu...BJJ is actually based primarily and originally on judo) is not only Japanese but is a modern Japanese sport more than a self-defense system. Judo is to jujitsu pretty much what modern WTF tae kwon do is to Okinawan karate.

3. Wouldn't surprise me. I also wouldn't be at all surprised if the rhetoric and posing, and outright bloodsoaked belligerence that characterized those original UFC bouts (pretty much reminiscent of Jackie Chan's The Big Brawl, more gladiatorial spectacle than contest) has been toned down to the point where MMA contests are now as relatively staid and businesslike as the kickboxing and full-contact karate of yore. In which case -- and, certainly, this is true of the many people who study MMA for its own merits -- I repudiate my erstwhile contempt for the movement, even if watching it still doesn't appeal to me any more than does boxing (of course, I also don't get excited about watching more traditional martial arts events, other than hand or weapons forms done by very skilled practitioners).

4. Yep. I'm interested in both but, at least for me, practical direct benefit (by which I mean techniques, because any martial arts training that's worth a damn will instill some very useful qualities) runs second. Yes, I am very interested in how to apply techniques that will actually work, or perhaps so, in a real situation. And the more efficient, the better. Not interested enough to improve my ground game, but otherwise very interested. I am certainly contemptuous of and disgusted by those who teach 'traditional' arts who insist that their students can take on anyone merely by performing their kata on the assailant, or by idiots like whoever produced Billy Blanks' Tae Bo infomercials who encouraged the message that people who train in martially-tinged aerobics can defend themselves (a potentially deadly triumph of misplaced confidence, again presented with a macho edge even though I recall the offending bits being uttered by a woman), or by people who include in self-defense-for-women crash courses all sorts of exotic Gymkata contortions and complex moves to, for example, defend against a rear grab when a stomp, us of free hands, or whatever else would not only be less dangerous and likely more effective but gets the neophyte at least thinking along the right lines. In real terms I recognize that proficiency in empty-hand self-defense, and even being able to pick up something somewhat akin to a staff, spear, or sword, has only limited application today and there's always the danger of either escalating a conflict that could be resolved or at least run away from or of having what turns out to be an inflated idea of your own martial skills, and discovering this lovely kernel of information only when it's too late. More to the point, though, it's always been the other aspects of martial arts that've been more viscerally compelling to me and that have made it part of my life and how I define myself.

The truth is that those of us who train or have trained hard in martial arts of whatever form in a legitimate school with good teachers -- who've put in the sweat, the blood, and the other lovely components (ER time and even worse things, like pushups) -- are likely to find more in common and understand each other better than might be indicated by the continual inter-style name-calling and the even larger clash of cultures that happened when UFC hit the big-time and the new breed of tournament fighters and the traditionalists began trading insults. Hell, I don't know if any MMA schools even use salutes, but I offer the old classic palm-and-fist Chinese hello and wish you the best with your explorations.

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