Why are we taking an insane killer to the county fair?

:9

Woo hoo! :party:

Because I do know; I have an uncle who spent 8 years in Whiting Forensic (CT's prison hospital for the violent mentally-ill.) for attempted murder. It's a common part of the rehabilitation process, these sorts of field trips, used to begin the process of getting patients who have been away for some time used to being around people and out in society so they can begin the process of being prepared for release. Otherwise they have rather close to a 100% relapse rate because it's just too big of a shock and long-term institutionalization tends to make people more fragile.

I do question taking them to the fair though...they used to take Uncle G. to the park, the grocery store and the bank, occasionally McDonalds. (Places with small crowds and other security personnel.) I'm not sure now much reintegration he got wearing an orange jumpsuit and being followed by two guys with shotguns filled with beanbag rounds either.

The harm here is that there will be a knee jerk reaction to this and it will destroy a legitimate and viable program.

In the case of Phillip Paul, he's almost certainly someone who should never be fully integrated into society, however I'm not sure it's all that humane to lock him in a padded cell for the rest of his life. As long as he's medicated, I'm sure he's probably no danger to anyone. Certainly someone seriously screwed up by letting him slip out of their control, but I fear the danger is now they will do away with those programs completely in many areas.

which means an insane man with a murder conviction is roaming the area.

I understand the viability of programs like these, and applaud them. The description, though, of how this man was managed while they were out is beyond negligent. He should never have been in any group like that at a fair, and common sense tells you that. Not just the numbers of people but all the sensory assaults - the noise, lights, moving things like rides.

And the idea that "someone was close to him" is just absurd. A man with a history like his should have been restrained in some way. You just don't let a guy like that roam free in a crowd.

You just don't.................................

Insanity acquitees rarely get these off ground privileges until they have gone through all kinds of hoops and have been consistently compliant wuth treatment.

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Patients are treated differently than convicts.

I'm curious as to how many "crazy" patients you actually represented - and for what purpose.

that is absolutely immaterial to what is happening now. He's on the loose. He was a patient involuntarily, so that makes him, for all practical purposes, a prisoner. He had absolutely no control over his freedom, no ability to sign himself out AMA, and that is why his functional status is essentially the same as if he had been convicted.

That said - and, as I said, it's not relevant - the numbers of people in mental institutions that I represented probably falls somewhere between eighty and one hundred, maybe a few more. I never counted them.

I did them when I was first starting out, getting court-appointed assignments to stand as their guardian ad litem when they had no family or other people who would volunteer and who had standing to take care of their legal interests. Very often, people inherit from deceased relatives, or they own property that needs to be transferred, or they want to get out and need someone to represent them, or they don't want certain things to happen to them and need legal representation, or they've been sued and need to have help getting representation in the lawsuit.

Patients are people, too, and it's really hard to get things done when you're confined involuntarily. It was a terrific way to get experience, but I also had some things happen that I'll truly never forget. Makes me cherish my life - and the luck of being sane - every day of my life.....................

While he was denied release by a judge two weeks earlier, it's clear his treatment team found him clinically suitable for this trip. His right to liberty, which prisoners do not have, was weighed against his treament needs and this was the decision made in this instance.

The hysteria and mockery these news reports engender are fed on uninformed opinion and the usual bigotry against the mentally ill.

I agree your experience is relevant only to the extent you referred to it. That said, the legal predicament of a civil patient with an external civil legal issue is far different from that of a mentally ill criminal defendant or insanity acquitee.

you'd be double- and triple-checking the locks on your doors at night, and you would be looking around nervously whenever you ventured outside. You'd be worried about your kids and your spouse, and you'd hesitate before venturing anywhere there wasn't a group of people nearby.

All your academic statements are very nice, but the bottom line is that the man has a violent history, and no indication that I could see that verified him as suitable for return to society. Their evaluation that he was fit to make that trip to the fair was proven ever so wrong, wasn't it? Nice work there. So much for their good guesses, which is really all any of the professionals can ever make with a man like this. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

They blew it.

It's not a matter of bigotry against the mentally ill. Not at all. I think your particular experience, whatever is it, is slanting your perspective. That makes your comments easy and understandable, given where I glean you're coming from.

It's not about the mentally ill.

It's about a dangerous man who was in custody and who was carelessly allowed to escape. He has a verifiable violent homicidal history, he's without his medication and supervision, and he is on the loose in a populated area.

His status, legal and otherwise, is meaningless right now. All that matters is that he is free and roaming somewhere, and without his medications, it's reasonable to expect him to act out in a sinister and destructive way.

His legal predicament is now complicated because he escaped. When he's caught, and I hope it's imminent, he's going to go through the process again, this time for busting out, and then his status will be that of a convict. You'll see that nothing in his treatment will change, and nothing in his history will change. He will still be dangerous without his medication, and for all we know - after all, he was medicated when he split, so exactly how well are the meds controlling his urges to act out is questionable - he was dangerous while he on them, but was simply able to game the system.

We just don't know enough, except, as I stated, a dangerous man is on the loose due to the negligence of the people entrusted with not only his safekeeping but also with keeping the people of the community safe from him.

I have no idea what you mean by "legal predicament," but, right now, his legal status is, as I said originally, immaterial..............

ON EDIT: CNN just reported - 4 a.m., Eastern time - that he packed up his clothes before they set out on the trip - he had them in his backpack, along with fifty bucks each patient was given.

There were eleven hospital personnel for thirty-one patients.

And there was a school field trip at the fair that same day.

Someone scheduled this field trip for thirty-one criminally insane patients on the same day as a field trip of school kids would be there.

A real nightmare all around.......................

There is nothing academic about how society treats the mentally ill who are charged with crimes.

Neither you nor I know the particulars of this case nor the factors that were weighed in authorizing this trip. To think it was done casually or frivolously is wrong.

My personal uninformed opinion is that this guy simply was tired of being locked up, planned a break, and took advantage of an opportunity. In other words, the product of rational thinking, not insanity.

And what is least academic about this situation is that the other thirty patients, who did nothing wrong at all on this trip, are now to be penalized because of the outcry against this one man, resulting in a wholesale condemnation of this necessay rehabilitation.

It's wrong.

because a murderer who was adjudged criminally insane is on the loose in your area?

Well, I suppose we have differing definitions of good sense versus paranoia.

Never, ever confuse "canny" and "cunning" with "sane." I've known people who were so deranged you'd have trouble classifying them as human. but who were capable of remarkably cogent insights and ideas. That this guy planned his escape might just as well have been the result of voices telling him to do it - the same voices that told him the 87-year-old woman told him, when he found the 87-year-old woman who was working in her garden, that she was the Devil, and that he had to slit her throat, which he did. Those voices can be saying anything, so your leap into the conclusion that his packing his clothes to take with him was a sign of santy is frivolous and ill-considered.

He's a sick man who needs to be institutionalized and medicated and he is dangerous. That is the fact set that we have right now. Your admittedly uninformed opinion that he "was tired of being locked up" strikes me. I gather that a lot of homicidal maniacs are "tired of being locked up."

That doesn't make them sane.

Nor does it make the way this field trip was executed any more competent. That he escaped is proof positive that it wasn't done well, that their plan failed, that it needs to be re-thought and until they come up with a better game plan, they might consider other outings for their charges besides fairs. Fairs where school kids arrive for field trips, too.

I agree with you that the other patients shouldn't be penalized, but the people who are in charge of taking care of them need to do their jobs differently, and come up with alternative plans for their outings.

For now, all we know is that this one failed, and a dangerous man is on the loose, and, while you would consider taking precautions while he's around and desperate to be paranoid, I would hope the people who are actually there are being careful, and that he gets caught and brought back without incident.............................

You have difficulty classifying deranged persons as human? There's another term for that.

As for leaping to conclusions, are voices telling you what's in his psychiatric reports?

It is as much a mistake to set psychiatric policy based on headlines as it is to say you see things that really aren't there.

You find my belief that it would make sense to take extra care in terms of personal security while a mentally ill murderer is on the loose in my area to be paranoid?

Well, OK. If that's what you have to do to make yourself feel better about all of it, that's all right with me. No harm done.

Here's what I see happening here: your agenda is getting all screwed up by rational thinking. It's hard to surrender closely-held beliefs, and sometimes even the real world can be bothersome when it doesn't align with your vision.

Those people to whom I referred as someone you might not even recognize as human, well, you'd have had to meet them in order to understand what I was saying. I had no idea such beings existed, and you are probably as in the dark as I was, back in those days. There are things out there, things and people and events that you would not believe. Some of them still trouble me when I think of them. Think of Tod Browning.

But, again, your agenda, shaky as it is, can, for you, for the moment, be affirmed by striking out at me and mischaracterizing what I wrote. Again, that's all right. You do what you have to do.

That second line of yours? About the voices? You aren't familiar with the crime he committed, the murder for which he was tried? I advise you to read about it, and then you'll understand what I wrote. That will clear up your confusion.

Your last line is just a bit off, I think. The policy of the facility will be examined and evaluated, and if things are changed - as they probably will be - it will be because their current practices failed. The headlines are secondary - the event is primary, and the event - that man's disappearance while on a field trip to a fair - was a colossal failure. Granted, it would not have gotten the publicity it's getting if it had been a compulsive shoplifter who ran off, but that's not what happened....................

"you'd be double- and triple-checking the locks on your doors at night, and you would be looking around nervously whenever you ventured outside. You'd be worried about your kids and your spouse, and you'd hesitate before venturing anywhere there wasn't a group of people nearby."

Feel free to divine my "agenda" all you wish but please do it with some rational thinking, which has been noticeably absent.

I see you've returned to cite your experience with the mentally ill. It really isn't about you, you know. I'll gladly leave my own out of this discussion, other than to say I have never met anyone, and this includes a man hospitalized for eating his student's testicles, whom I could envision to be human only with difficulty. In any event, if true, that's a more pertinent experience than representing civil patients in probate court.

As to this particular man's history, reading accounts of his arrest and prosecution do not substitute for reading the psychiatric records he's generated over the past 18 years, since that is the reason he was on a trip.

Since the Governor has already weighed in, prodded I'm sure by the sentiments expressed in your posts on the subject, feel secure that all of these patients will be clamped down, restrictions imposed, and their liberty deferred for years more.

But do not, once, in your smug security, believe that either treatment, protection or justice has been obtained.

that I can live with your assessment of me as paranoid. It's all right with me, so please let it be all right with you.

And, do recall, if you can, that you asked me what my experience was with committed clients. I didn't bring it up - you asked, and I answered. I was simply continuing a conversation thread that you had begun. If you don't want to walk through the door, don't open it.

And how you got the notion that my legal work was only in probate court, I have no idea. You do seem to find facts where there are none.

What was it you said about "rational thinking"?

I find it compelling that you keep trying to turn this all onto me. You're absolutely right - it's not about me. Whatever you are saying about his psychiatric records - and neither of us has access to them, which means you're being funny, so I'm laughing - we both know that whatever the assessment was of his condition, it's turned out to be not quite on the mark.

Now, in your final line, about my "smug security," whatever that means, I have no idea what you're talking about in terms of "protection or justice has been obtained." You do seem to be having a conversation with yourself, and it appears that no matter what I say, you're either not able to understand it - which I don't believe - or you're simply ignoring it because it doesn't fit in whatever rubric you're working from.

As I said, feel free to characterize me as any pathology you wish, because it's an impotent thing to do, having no effect, but, hopefully, making you comfortable.

I'm sorry you're so incensed about how this situation is being handled, but it was a gross misstep, one that the professionals in charge didn't think would take place, and that's what's making the headlines. Ultimately, as I already said, I hope he's recovered with no fuss, and that he doesn't do anyone any harm until that happens.

Interesting that you're not at all concerned about what might happen to people who might encounter this man, but you are mighty annoyed that the field trips might be discontinued. I would say that your values are very different from mine.

Again, there's that pesky "rational thinking."

But, as I said, you can blame me for everything, including my wish, if I lived in that area, to protect myself and my loved ones from a man who has been adjudicated criminally insane, who has murdered because voices in his head told him to kill an elderly woman tending her garden, and who is now on the run. You find it paranoid, and you needed to tell me that.

My hope for you is that you feel better. I'll let you go now, and wish you well, and I know we both hope the man is found and brought back to his institution without anything bad happening...............................

This man will be caught, brought back and remain there decades more. And each time someone is up for release or an off grounds furlough, he or she is more likely to be turned down, not for clinical reasons, but for fear of outcry. And that is a setback for us all.

I don't see that happening necessarily. I think there's going to be a great big uproar about the concept of field trips for the criminally insane, and that might not be a bad thing. Some good results can come from a misadventure such as this. I think there should be great care given to discharges when someone adjudged criminally insane is brought up for release. I don't know that there have been any problems with anyone who's been through that process and has been released, so I'm not sure that this will affect that part of the system.

But there will be a reassessment of the entire treatment continuum, and, clearly, it needs it.

I think you understand me perfectly well. You just don't like what I've said, so you chose to try to insult me instead of trying to explain to me why you think my opinions are incorrect. That's unfortunate, reducing yourself to, essentially, namecalling, because that just puts you in the posture of someone espousing an indefensible and flawed theory or belief or whatever you want to call it. I take none of it personally, but your need to personalize anything discussed here and try to turn it towards me, as if anything were my fault or my doing, just makes me feel sad for you, and I do understand that you have to do what you have to do to feel all right.

See, you never quite disagreed with me. You just called me paranoid and tried to box me in with allegations about my legal experience with the institutionalized, and you never did take on any of the issues I raised.

That's all right......................................

Don't take it personally.

How on earth can an opinion be incorrect?

OK, you're kidding. That's funny.

What's grand is that our exchanges are right there, where they can be read anytime. I wouldn't, and I'd be anything that you wouldn't, either.

But, I apologize to you. I was playing with my food, and I didn't realize it until the end.

And now it is

The End.................

Fin.

Sure, whatever, you've certainly shown that you understood what I was talking about.

Right.

Thank you. You've changed my life. I laughed, I cried, a memorable experience, your pithy and brilliant "post."

Does a few rather illiterate words in a Subject Line count as a Post? I suppose they do, since your vote probably counts the same as a really smart person's........................

It sounds like you've been watching too many Texas Chainsaw Massacre movies and using that to form your opinion of paranoid schizophrenics. Noise, lights, and moving things? You're kidding, right? While this man is perhaps one of the most extreme examples, that doesn't mean he should be locked in chains and treated like a rabid animal.

It's pretty rare for guys like him to escape, and it's even more rare for them to commit violent acts so long as they are caught in a short period of time and there's no reason to believe he won't be caught in a short period of time. To suggest that he's going to start hacking up kids or eating people's tongues because he sees some flashing lights only adds to the ignorance that is truly harmful for paranoid schizophrenics.

Certainly this should be a learning experience on what went wrong, but your reaction and attitude towards people with this type of "history" is exactly what I'm talking about. It's simply ignorant and it's harmful ignorance.

and I certainly never alluded to "chains" or "rabid animals."

Oh, please. You've decided that he'll be caught "... in a short period of time." Good luck with that one, my friend. Easy for you to say if you're not living there.

I hope you're not, and I hope nothing like this ever happens where you live or where any of your loved ones live. It strikes me as a very cavalier attitude to adopt since you're not there. Talk is cheap, but my take on life is that it's very precious, and if I'm told that a man who is off his meds, has been adjudicated legally insane, and has already murdered someone because the voices in his head told him that she was the devil, is on the loose in my area, I'm going to take extra precautions.

Here in the DC area, a few years ago, we had the DC Sniper. People were shot and killed in all sorts of places. Everyone - myself included - was looking both ways and scampering to their cars in parking lots - one woman was murdered in a Home Depot parking lot not far from where we live. It was frightening, and it was a hell of a thing to live through.

So, your talk is cheap.

My reaction is healthy and normal, and your refusal or inability to understand is troubling, but since I think you're yanking some chains, it's actually entertaining. No one is that thick, not for real...........................

Essentially it's 'you're not there so therefore your opinion isn't valid'. Yes, only people who have lived in irrational fear have valid opinions on the subject. Right.

You may find more information here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

See also 'appeal to fear'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_fear

Either P or Q is true.
Q is frightening.
Therefore, P is true.

Do yourself a favor and read up.

Have a nice day!

You know, for a field trip.

Are you on a volunteer list to take in violent felons? You should be if you believe what you are saying. Having said that, please do NOT volunteer for such a foolhardy task.

Your reading comprehension is poor...I didn't advocate anything in that post, I did however state a point of fact regarding programs run by state mental facilities and the reasons for programs like the one this person escaped from. (I know assholes like to forget this fact, but mental patients are still people.)

You may want to spend less time on the internet and more time on basic literacy skills thusly.

And you are probably a people-person. It's a stupid high-risk program, as evidenced by this case and others before it.

Not take steps to attempt to build, rebuild or maintain ability to function in society?

It's like I said earlier in this thread, I have a problem with taking him or any patient to a crowded place like a fair and as several people pointed out he probably should not have been eligible for this program as he's never going to be eligible for release based on his diagnosis and history.

That said, more than 99% (and 90% of those with violent convictions such as murder even) of people institutionalized as a result of a criminal act will be released during their lifetimes. The ones that don't go through these sorts of programs typically reoffend and end up in prison or reinstitutionalized precisely because they lack the social skills and capacity to function in society. They frequently fail to continue to take medications (most common reason: They didn't know how to get more. Second most common, "I felt better so I didn't think I needed them anymore."), many fall into drugs, as many end up homeless or exploited. Often they go without basic life needs (food, reputable financial services (ie. a bank), phone service, health and dental care, psychiatric care, I can keep listing but you get the idea.) not because they can't afford these things but because they have no idea how to obtain them and they're leaving a highly-structured environment where someone else took care of these things for them and kept them from falling through the cracks. It would be cruel to simply release them without some sort of real-world socialization program.

Until someone comes up with a better idea, this is what we have to work with. Yes, there are incidents...but like most news stories of this type, for every notable failure there are thousands of successes that go unmentioned. "Local man released from mental hospital following social re-entry program, gets menial job stocking shelves, lives normal incident-free life." is not a very good news story...kind of boring.

You're right about the reintegration process though.

:shrug:

especially because he escaped before during a similar outing.

Hey, a gig's a gig!

:hi:

we can always count on the good DUers to strike remarkable perspectives on an urgent question..................

:toast:

nicely done :)

They caught him, so it's all OK now.

But the field trips have been stopped for the time being.

No, really........................... :hi:

Didn't they go to a baseball game??

"Mentally unstable escaped convicted killer? No problemo, dude, we got twenty or thirty of you guys working for us."

a Tilt-a-Whirl. We were the only people on it. The crazy carnie wouldn't stop the ride for a long, long time. We just kept circling around and around, screaming at him to let us off. FINALLY he did. :scared:

dangerous the longer he is on the loose with no medication."

I wonder where they got a crazy idea like that. :popcorn:

Because, like it or not, felons, which this man is not, will complete their sentences and are entitled to liberty.

of course.

mark

a.) to get on the rides faster

b.) wanted to show off the seventeen pound zucchini he grew in gardening therapy

c.) to observe the interaction of nitrates and high fructose corn syrup with the latest anti-psychotics

d.) because Phil wanted to scout the talent

On the run with no medication.

I hope he is caught soon.

:shrug:

Probably the people making these decisions are rather intelligent and knowledgeable about the dangers of criminals and the mentally ill and take all factors into account and just got something wrong this time. For all you know, this exact program has helped in past treatments and saved lives and made the jobs of hospital employees safer and less stressful. Second guessing situations we know nothing about other than what we read in a couple of columns of poorly reported news print written specifically to provoke is not the best way to run a society.

Good grief.

Good grief, go out there and form a posse.

god knows what on unsuspecting people is better, right?

Any word yet? Have they caught the guy?

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2009900511_apusmentalinstitutionescape.html

Greg Davis, president of Washington Federation of State Employees Local 782,
said the union has expressed concerns about public outings to hospital management
during official and unofficial meetings.

In recent years, the types of patients allowed to participate in the outings
has become more inclusive, Davis said.

"Under older policy, a patient (like Paul) would not have been included in that outing," he said.
"That outing is for the best of the best ... patients with years of compliance and excellent behavior,
people who the courts agree are ready to re-enter society."

A Yakima County judge had ruled two weeks ago that Paul remained a threat to the public because
of his aggressive behavior and his decreased awareness of his psychosis,
The Spokesman-Review reported Saturday.



----------------------------------



Looks like a bad decision to let him out.

Posted: 08:02 PM ET

(CNN) — A legally insane killer who escaped in Washington state during a field trip was captured Sunday, authorities said.

Phillip Paul was able to elude a massive manhunt in Spokane County, Washington, after escaping on Thursday.

http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2009/09/20/escaped-killer-recaptured-in-washington-state/

:eyes: