Paging flvegan or other doggie DUers. I need help/advice!

Yes, me, self-professed dog expert - I am failing badly on this one.

About a month ago, my husband & I found a stray German Shepherd mix approx. a year old, male, un-neutered. Our vet says he's probably from the nearby reservation.

No one claimed him, so we're keeping him & my husband is totally in love with him.

Problem: He has no manners and is, at times, completely out of control. He's a good natured dog, and very smart, but he just has no self control & he has never been taught anything about acceptable behavior. Plus, he's HUGE and strong - way stronger than I am. In other words, this dog frequently frightens me, and I have NEVER (since I was a child) been afraid of any dog.

Now I "know" that he does not intend to harm me (he could kill me in about 10 seconds if he wanted to), but when he gets rough and bossy it is terrifying because I can't physically overpower him.

We are currently training him, intensively, with a professional trainer and also with all the methods and tricks that I know. Sometimes, he's as good as gold. Other times (like just now) he's just completely wild.

Normally, I just leave him alone (temporarily) in the backyard when he does this, but even after a month he hasn't figured out that "Gee, when I'm rough, Coventina leaves and I don't get attention anymore."

But right now, my husband (who is much bigger and stronger than me, and CAN control him) is out of town until Thursday. But I don't want to leave the poor dog out alone until Thursday. Plus, it will set his training back (and just be plain irresponsible in a lot of other ways) to basically abandon him for the next three days. (I'm not talking about not feeding & watering him, of course I would never consider not doing that! I mean playing/training/attention).

I just can't figure it. We've been consistent, we've been firm, we've been loving, we've been patient. I thought I had all the answers when it comes to dogs, but this one has me stumped and feeling like a failure.

Any words of wisdom would be appreciated.

ours it was the first thing we did!

him two things: that he got his way (because you relented and gave him his space), and that he is alone (probably something any dog doesn't like).

I'm not a dog expert, but I've raised many. You are going to have to confront him, firmly but lovingly. Don't put him out in the yard just because he threatens you.

in those situations is either

1) me to play "rough" with him (whoever had him before evidently accepted full-contact wrestling including "play" biting - maybe fun if you are 6 feet tall & 200+ pounds, but for a petite woman this is no laughing matter)

or

2) walkies that are on the OTHER side of the front door. Let's just say that leash training is NOT going well. He can drag me along like I'm nothing.

Believe me I "know" how to do this, except that nothing I "know" seems to be working.

:-(

I feel like a bad parent.

I realized I was totally rewarding her bad behavior just in time.

Couple questions. Okay, he's a year old and now neutered (read the responses). You've had him a month. Is he a full GSD? I'm assuming by his size that he likely is.

"Rough and bossy" is this during play, or just at random? What is feeding time like? Does he respect you as pack leader with food? Could you touch/remove his bowl? Does he wait for you to present it to him or does he knock you over to get it?

Putting him in the backyard isn't a good idea because the backyard is not only fun, but it's also the bathroom. You don't want to use such a thing as punishment. If he DID equate the yard with punishment, you may be quickly un-housetraining him.

I think that this could be an easy fix, depending on the answers above.

on edit: fixed stupid "will be" with "could be"

dominate breed.

The rough and bossy mode comes out mostly when he's being playful, so I KNOW in my brain that he is NOT trying to hurt me, but by golly it is still terrifying.

It also comes out during training sessions at times. We do it in short sessions, like 5-10 minutes multiple times a day. But sometimes (and only with me, not my husband) he just simply "checks out" of training mode and tackles me. Well, I should amend that, he responds to my husband's scold noise when he does it to my husband, but he may or may not respond to my scold noise (we're using "a-a!" instead of "no" on the advice of the trainer, as "a-a" can't be confused with anything else).

Food-wise, we couldn't ask for anything better, especially from a stray. He has NO food aggression whatsoever, and we've tested him in every way we can think of.

Housetraining we haven't even attempted yet. So far, when he's in the house, he's on the leash. Wherever he came from, he spent little or no time indoors. He hasn't figured out "indoors" yet. He thinks that the house is merely a conduit for getting out the front door and into the larger world.

When he's inside, he paces nervously around and constantly goes to the front door and whines.

Believe me, we are anxious to get him acclimated to indoor living so that we can have him indoors, socialized, and integrated fully into our lives. I am firmly against the whole concept of "outdoor dogs" (a concept I consider cruel). But that's what we have right now.

It's breaking my heart.

I took over full time over everything feeding training and playing. I even make her sit before I give her any of her toys , make her sit everytime we went inside/outside,and before i set her food and water bowl down to establish my role as alpha. I don't proclaim to be an expert I have had to do this because I am just learning my self. I feel as though if I show one sign of weakness she is going to challenge me for my position. I love her and she is sweet but god damn I am learning that terrier mix is code for crazy ;)

And we've been doing everything that you mention with this dog. He sits quite well, actually. But then, once he's released from that sit he propels forward like a cannonball with me flapping helplessly on the end of the leash. It probably looks quite comical from a distance.

Yeah, I NEVER use "no" because it's not fair because we use it in everyday speech (and if one tells the dog "you know better" it screws with the dog's head). I use "NAH!" personally, because it's forceful, so you have the right idea on that. Good.

The food thing is excellent. Very lucky with that. He's accepted that he gets fed, not that he feeds. Good.

I think your biggest problem here (and you already know this) is that he's a year old and just got fixed within the last month. He's a big puppy who may still be getting rid of some testosterone. GSDs don't "mature" until at least 18 months. If you took him to a dog park, he'd play with those dogs like he does you. You're just a big dog that happens to be the boss, and his last boss may have liked to play rough. If he's obeying your husband's scold, that's a good sign. Have you tried, when he jumps up facing you, putting your knee up to knock him off balance? Turning your back to end play? Staring him down? If you give him a "a-a" and he obeys, do you give him positive reinforcement?

Normally, this is where modern trainers and I part ways on how to handle this. Most go right to the "alpha roll" with you attempting to forcibly roll him on his back. A ridiculous suggestion with this sort of dog.

and that he'll calm down soon. And truth be told, there are good days and moments when I am really proud of him. Considering what he was like when we first found him, he has made significant progress.

I am pretty sure that whoever had the care of him previously played rough with him, so I suspect we're having to undo a lot of prior "training."

I've tried the knee thing, and walking into him, it simply gets him more jumpy and chompy. If I turn my back, he jumps on me from behind.

When I stare him down, he snaps at my face. Not in a hostile way, but my reptilian brain sure interprets it as hostile!! But if he was serious, I'd be without a face many times over by now.

When he is being cooperative and responsive to "a-a", I give him lots of positive reinforcement. I really am a firm believer in positive training. I use the little treats from a belt pouch to constantly reward him when he does the right thing. And like I've said before, he is good a fair amount of the time. But when he decides to be bad, it's horrible.

In moments of desperation, I have done the alpha roll, which he does submit to for a split second, then he wiggles out in a flash and continues the wrestling match, which I simply can't win with him. About all I can say is, he hasn't been able to force me onto my back yet! :-)

So why am I doing this? Well, my husband has fallen in love with the big galoot. Plus, I sense that underneath this problem is a good-hearted dog that wants to love and be loved.

The alpha roll has to be done in absolution. A split second and then on with play is just that...play. That's why with a dog that is honestly bigger/stronger than you in this situation isn't a good idea. What has he learned? You can't follow through. You can't hold him there. It's not a roll, it's just part of play. Worst case scenario, he learns that you will never be able to follow through. He may question if you are indeed alpha or not.

I think you'll have a fine dog in time. What you have now is the equivalent of a wild 3 year old child (that's as big as you). He's manic. It's only been a month. Etc, etc. Keep doing what you're doing with the positive reinforcement. Firmly establish your position. Don't let him end a stare down. Remember that with a dog like this, every single interaction is a lesson.

What you say makes perfect sense.

I have to avoid physical contests with him, because he will win, every time.

What do you think of squirt bottles?

I don't like the idea of making him afraid of me squirting him, but would that be better than him figuring out that he can boss me around with his superior strength?

is he equates the physical correction with the bottle, not you. I love them, personally.

As for the physical contests, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. I'm happy to lose a tug game with a rope now and then, but that's play. You have to avoid physical domination if you can't win, or rather if he's not willing to lose. With dogs remember, it's rarely physical. It's psychological. It's all mental. Hell, if it was physical, I'd be long since dead. The 8 rescues currently here follow me around like I'm king of the world, happy as can be. Like piranha, they could easily take me apart.

nervous about water.

Every time we turn on the hose he runs away, even though we've never squirted him with it (and we never would).

The day we found him, I filled a plastic container of water for him and he circled around me nervously until I turned the hose off. He then promptly drank almost the entire 1/2 gallon container and I had to refill it. Again, he nervously waited at a distance until the water was turned off.

Our trainer also recommended squirt bottles for correction, but I'm just so soft-hearted. Maybe too soft-hearted!
:-)

But if they are flvegan-approved, I'll go for it!!

You don't want to be using a wide spray, nor do you want to soak the whole house. You also want to be able to get the shot off in an instant.

Definitely flvegan approved.

I feel so much better than I did a few hours ago.

You've got a good canvas that you're working with already. Just some time and consistency is all it will take. And you know what you're doing.

Good luck.

And you know where to find me if need be.

I only have cats, not dogs (and both are very very well trained and behaved) but when I started training Priti the kitten, it was hilarious. She would 'stalk' the squirt bottle, get close, bat at it and then run away scared and hide behind me. She never got upset with me, I was her protector and the evil blue bottle was her enemy!

I've not heard a story like that. It's true, but that's so funny! :rofl:

Once, she knocked it over when she batted it and it landed on the trigger and squirted and she jumped STRAIGHT in to the air hissing and spitting, her fur went HUGE and she RAN to where I was sitting and tried to burrow under my legs. She doesn't do it anymore, but damn was it fun to watch her stalk that bottle.

don't they?

:loveya:

:)

I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it for myself, but that cat LOVES being squirted in the face! In fact the cat gets so excited about it, you almost feel like it's some kind of super-wrong animal porn.

So, my friend still hasn't been able to come up with a training tool!

But it is hilarious to watch.

I was just talking to a friend of mine, his cat climbed in to the shower with his room mate the other day! My Ion loves to curl up on my chest when I'm in the bath. Priti would come in to the walk in shower, just not under the spray. A normal shower, she would get REALLY upset, poke her head in and start crying and crying and looking very concerned until I got out.

I can't imagine enjoying being sprayed in the face though! Jeeze! Excited like, the way they do when you stimulate right above the tail kind of excited? :scared:

feels like borderline indecent) to watch!

But, that cat is kind of bizarre in other ways. My friend calls her "my abusive roommate."

Wow, that is crazy!

I have had dogs look at me like I was nuts, but I have also had dogs interpret that as "Oh shit... she's series!" P

:dunce:

PSSHT!

Like a shush sound with a very abrupt beginning and end.

what if the dog is 100 feet away at a dog park? Can't get out a forceful one of those very well.

I've yelled "NAH!!" at one of my dogs at 400 feet with his back to me while he was jumping up on someone. He turned and looked, sat, and then lay down as I walked over to him.

Milan's correction is good in close quarters, but I've found that active dog owners should have a more "expressive" noise to draw immediate response. IIRC, he also mostly uses it as a distraction, but I'm not positive on that. But then, whatever works...works!

I have a Siberian Husky/Aussie Shepard who is a classic "Alpha Male".He gets way too hyper if ignored,and there is no way we can keep up with him,as he would run us into the ground trying.

So our solution is to get Timber a "Playmate". We are looking for another Husky/Aussie as we think that he needs to be part of a "Pack",needs the playtime not only for his health (Laying around all day isn't good for his health any more than it would be for mine) and the energy he would burn off would help him settle down in the evening.

Also...Some dogs LOVE being outside most of the time!! Huskies,German Shepherds,Newfoundlands and other thick furred critters actually prefer the outdoors....Timber will lay quietly on our front porch all day no matter how cold it is outside. The Husky undercoat makes it too warm and uncomfortable for him indoors during the winter (Of course He comes inside at dark) and he hates hot summer days because we make him spend more time inside under the AC.

Also it is possible that he is bored,When Timber gets bored He "Invents" games to play...chasing the cat,chewing up things that are heavy cloth (My Jeans) paces around incessantly wants in and out,in and out,in and out,Trys to heard the Cat (And the Cat lets him know that isn't good,LOL)

Its just his way of sayin "Dad,I'm Bored...Play with me NOW!!"

Check with your trainer and see if a Playmate might help.

nothing to do with him!

It's really kind of sad. He's desperate for her attention and is constantly trying to get her to play with him, but all she does is growl and snap at him.

She's a shepherd mix as well, but much smaller and much older than him. So far, it doesn't look like a good match, sadly. Maybe in the future we can get him a suitable companion, because I think he would do well with a playmate, but right now getting a third dog is just not practical for us.

(I may change my mind on this though!)

Our backyard is pretty good sized. Big enough that he can run at a full gallop for about 20 yards or so across the width (it's wider than it is deep).

We've gotten him lots of toys, and he's "found" quite a few of his own as well. :-) But I'm still concerned about his mental health. I certainly would not argue that he has enough to do with his brain, energy, and time. That's one of the reasons why we would like to get him more acclimated to indoor living.

But just like a highly intelligent 3 or 4 y.o. child who is bored some dogs "Need a Job" ask any Aussie Owner...If they don't "Have something to do" they get to be just like a kid on a rainy day...an absolute P.I.T.A.

From what you say it really sounds like He needs a playmate...It sounds like your other dog has decided that the young'un is a Teenager and like most middle aged critters (Us Humans Too!) that "Little Juvenile Delinquent" is too "Unrefined and Crass" too deal with...She sounds like a Patient Soul!

If you can afford,have the room,the ability and the insane amount of patience to care for three dogs this may be your answer.

And Thank You for Rescuing Him.

with the door left open? This doesn't deal w/ the dominance issue (which, of course is the most serious problem), but I wonder if it might help w/ acclimating to indoors. The idea is you would put in the crate a favorite chew toy and a comfy towel or throw, and see if the denning instinct kicks in.

We plan to move it into the house when he's ready. We don't think he's ready yet.

If he had a spot of his own to retire to when he's anxious in the house, I think it could help him deal w/ his anxiety. Maybe if its not too dreadful to haul it in and out, you could have it in the house for a couple of hours each evening to help w/ the transition.

up to this point, EVER felt the need to physically dominate a dog. I have no patience with people who train dogs through fear and intimidation, it's against everything I believe in.

I've worked with MANY dogs bigger and stronger than I. But for some reason this guy is pushing my primal fear button in a way that no other dog has. That's one of the reasons why I just physically remove myself from his presence when he gets rough with me because the whole "fight or flight" thing kicks in, and I know that neither is appropriate. So I just extricate myself as calmly as I can and go into the house.

I can't figure out if the problem is him, or me.

I know that it's really hard to not be concerned, but if you're not sure that you're the boss...neither is he.

:hi:

*sigh*

:-(

Caveat: certainly no expert, and from the sounds of it, you have LOADS more training experience than I ever hope to!

Your dog reminds me of a dog a friend of mine has. Turning the back, knee up, none of those things work. The only thing that works is when she starts to jump, you walk right into her and keep walking, and she backs down. It's not an easy thing to do. (*I* certainly can't do it, and my friend said it took weeks of training *herself* to push the fight-or-flight down to be able to do it.) I can't think it would be easy with this dog, for you, given the description, but it sounds like the same kind of thing.

:hug: You guys are good people for taking this guy in. :)

to be a really great dog. As I've stated in earlier posts, he really does have an innate good nature, I believe. Just a set of really, really bad habits.

If we hadn't taken him in, I don't like to think of what would have ended up happening to him: huge, un-neutered, untrained, unlicensed dog wandering the streets. His future was not very bright. And there are, sadly, millions of others like him.

:-(

Thanks again. The kind words really help.

:hug:

(mind you this is just me sayin what I do)

With a small dog...

In your head you know you can whip it. So, they don't scare you. Hec, you might even find yourself growling back at him/her.

with a medium dog...

You still can "pwn" him/her. Fear come with loud noises and pain. You will win.

With a large or Larger dog...

You have to convince the feller you are in control. It sounds mean to say, but.. if you don't (and you don't live on an island), you need to. I guess there are big dogs out there that never needed this mentality, but I think it happens naturally with some so they don't know it.

I typed so much I caught my buzz so I'll hush... no wait..

Personal story.
I have an Akita. I generally can call his moves. Walk, "go do you're business," sit, shake etc.
If he has drug in a creature (groundhog, bunny, squirel<not got these yet>.) I get a split second of fear when I take the creature from him 'cause he look at me with .. primal. It is so hard not to flinch.

bla bla bla

:hi:

It doesn't really say what I meant

:(

I took in an abandoned toy/small breed puppy. I had always had a predjudice against small dogs because they always seemed like brats who were totally bossy/annoying/snappy. I have come to realize that people who have them baby them more (who wouldn't) but what is bad is that they are hesitant to correct them because of inheirant cuteness as a result they think they are the boss and act out.I never realized why the host of Its Me or the Dog (severelooking british dog trainer) had such a severe look about her: To get her self in that lleadership frame of mind and exude confidence of the alpha of the pack

not much more I can say.

:thumbsup:

lol

I was thinking of what to say to a new owner of a distraught German Shepherd.

:P

can be dangerous as well.

Granted, they can't take down an adult human, but small dogs have been known to kill human babies they were jealous of.

He'd either get away from me, or I'd be dragged to my death (okay, not to my death, but there is a serious probability that he would get away from me or injure me).

They make some that do not allow a dog to pull you, with a loop around the muzzle, that will pull his head around if he tries to pull too hard.

Many shepherd owners use prong collars as well, that the harder he pulls, the more the prongs poke into the neck. I don't care for those as much, never used one. But then I'm 6'4" and 225 and I can easily lift a large shepherd off the ground.

What you really need is for the dog to pay attention to you, which will likely require long term conditioning. For a dog the boss isn't only the string person, it's the person that controls the resources.

A good program is what is called NILIF or "Nothing in life is free". You can google it up and fond lots of resources, but basically nothing comes free, the dog has to listen and respond to something you want before it gets anything, attention, food, treats whatever, nothing is given without doing something to earn it in the dogs mind.

Over time that would likely help immensely.

stimulate or challenge his brain? is he able to play with other dogs anywhere? i have a 2-yr old shepherd mix with some of the same behaviors. i think sometimes he's just bored and a little stir crazy. we've had him since he was 8.5 months, and he was neutered right before we got him.

he's very smart, and very bossy ... pushes around our other german shepherd that we had first and is several years older than he is.

i'm sorry i don't have any more/better advice. keep us posted though, won't you?

As well patience will likely mean years, if not a lifetime.

You might want to take a video of it or something as well and post it here or in other dog forums...

http://www.dogforums.com/

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php

Are a couple I frequent.

I would also have him fixed, like yesterday.

I do have some experience dealing w/ a dominance problem, but I never took on a challenge like you describe. I only had to confront a medium-sized terrier who thought he should be in charge. I found a couple of Cesar Milan's videos helpful. Have you seen this one?

Seriously. Maybe they can give you some tips about maintaining your composure with an animal big enough to flatten you.

Some of my nieces have been bossing horses around since they were little kids. Dogs don't seem to bother them either, even big playful dogs who don't know any better.

My neighbors have German Shepherds and sometimes I find them intimidating even though I'm bigger then they are. They really enjoy rough and tumble play and I've been extremely startled by them while working in my yard. They've knocked me over a couple of times with playful but entirely unexpected bumps.

"Hah, hah! Let's play!" For an instant I'll be pissed and want to murder them, but they really are big silly kids who don't mean me harm. They are gentle with smaller dogs and little kids too.

They just want me to play with them like I play with our own medium sized dogs, but I'm not going to be wrestling them to ground or swinging them up off their feet playing tug-of-war with a knotted rope, they're just too big and too strong.