Just finished Harry Potter V - have questions - SPOILERS!

********************** WARNING SPOILERS **************************


So what is the deal with the children of the Death Eaters?
Now that everything is out in the open, can they continue going to school as "normal"? And anyway, since Dumbledore knew the truth anyway, wouldn't he have had concerns about the situation throughout the whole year? Why on earth would he have made Draco a prefect? I mean, at least before knowing where Draco's loyalties are? Which brings me to the whole problem of Slytherin House. Why haven't reforms been instituted? Especially since a member of the Order of the Phoenix (Snape) is the head? Or is it all some sort of elaborate cover for Snape to continue to have an "in" with Voldy-thing?

Speaking of Snape, why hasn't Dumbledore had a sit-down with Snape and Harry to get the air cleared between them?

Anyone have any thoughts on these issues? Or anything else? I'm dying to talk about the book, now that I've finished it. (I missed the earlier thread that probably dealt with these issues).

She never really gives us much insight into what's going on in Dumbledore's head, does she? :)

My theory is that Dumbledore keeps the Slytherin students at Hogwarts because he wants to try to be a positive influence on them, try to keep them away from the dark side.

When you think about Snape, he is not a Death Eater, and is loyal to Dumbledore and the OOTP, but he's just kinda a jerk, you know? Maybe there are lots of Slytherin kids like that too.

I agree, it does get more and more outlandish now that their parents are actively opposing Dumbledore, but now that the MoM knows that V is back, they may be more likely to impose sanctions on DeathEaters, so the DE's will have to keep their identities secret, and Dumbledore can't exactly expel people without proof, right?

Dumbledore is not one to judge people, I think he likes to give people the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

Sorry so ramble-y.

Cat

All 4 houses have to join together in order to defeat Voldemort.

And about Snape? I believe Snape was in love with Harry's mom. You get the smallest hint of that in this book, when she defends him against her future husband. When she was killed, he returned to the "good" side.

But that is the real reason he hates Harry, and Dumbledore may feel it's not any of Harry's business.

And it would make a LOT of sense!!
Snape being in love with Lily would explain a LOT of what is going on with the personal dynamics of the situation. Especially since Harry looks so much like James.
I hope you turn out to be right. I know it sounds crazy, but I really LIKE Snape. I always have. I want him to be good, and having a broken heart makes his behaviour forgiveable, in my eyes.

but I think it is more about it!

There is a good side to Slytherin house and we will see it before the books finish, I have no doubt. The fine weave of good and bad in everything (except, maybe, the Dursleys!) is starting to come more fully into focus (probably another reason conservatives hate it--too much grey).

For me, one of the big things in this book was the abrupt shift in the way Harry's aunt is portrayed. And even the eccentric old woman with the cats, whom Harry loathed, was shown to be a secret ally.

Great observation earlier on about the hat ... I couldn't help thinking when I was reading those verses that it's been very difficult for any liberators to get rid of a dictator without the firm support of the country that spawned that regime ... for example, Germany and Japan would have turned into bloodbaths unless their citizens had welcomed and assisted the Allies. And more recently, even aerial bombing didn't dislodge Milosevic from Serbia ... opposition groups within the country (with friends on the outside) accomplished that.

Seeing that Tom Riddle (Voldemort) is from Slytherin, it won't be possible to defeat him without Slytherins helping. And his own house turning against him would do him the most damage (he already despises and looks down on people from the other houses).

seemed like a complete jerk jock in the scene depicted in TOTP... I think Harry was on the right track there until it was knocked out of his mind by subsequent tragic events.

Remember, Harry is the spitting image of his dad except for his green eye color, which he got from his mom.

James Potter and his gang made life absolutely miserable for Snape during their years at Hogworts. Being mercilessly teased and tormented during the prepubescent, pubescent, and adolescent years is something that no person would ever forget. It is an experience that lies festering in the back storerooms of the mind.

And poor Snape! No matter how much he'd like to forget, every time he sees Harry, he is brought face to face with his tormented youth.

I'd like to believe that by the time Harry graduates from Hogworts, he and Snape will have mended fences and will have become friendlier if not good friends...

It would make sense for Dumbledore to want to bring people in rather than drive them away. But I would think that at some point (and I think it would have already come) Dumbledore would have to ask them personally (and probably in private) to make a choice, are they going to support Voldemort and their parents, or Dumbledore and the school?

I think J.K. has not really thought some of these things through. And is going for things that help drive the plot and give obstacles to Harry without really looking at the consquences and the logic of her choices.


Re: Snape and Harry. This dynamic is now crucial to the books. It gives Harry something to fight against, even if Snape is really on the good guys side.

Re: The children of the Death Eaters. Definately think J.K. just thought it would be perfect to make Malfoy a Prefect, but didn't really think through the logic of it. As far as, their status now. They should be watched closer, but (even though they are portrayed as being clones of their parents) they are not really guilty of anything.

Jeremy

And I don't think the DE children should be expelled just because of their parents. But it seems like it would be a tricky situation, their parents are now considered dangerous criminals. Do the children become wards of the MoM? I mean, if the children misbehave, does the school notify the parents, who may be on the lam? It just seems like a really crazy situation.

in the 5th year Slytherin class would she have MADE a prefect? Crabbe? Goyle? Those are pretty much the only 5th year slytherins mentioned, and Malfoy certainly has a "high profile" role in Slytherin.

Who would you make a prefect instead? Crabbe? Goyle?

Malfoy may be a dick, but as far as what is known to be availabel in that house, he is definately a leader.

So he wants to make it look like he really despises Harry, when in truth he just despises him. Does that make sense?

Why do so many adults carry on over a childrens book like that?

Let's face it, Rowling is not JRR Tolkien here.

I watched about 5 mins of one of the movies on HBO and cannot figure out how any adult could be so enthralled with them that they run out to get the latest book.

Well, maybe not sucks, but it definitely isn't that great.

on edit: was never a big fan of tolkien, by the way. to each his own, i guess.

Why go into a thread that you know is going to be about a subject you are not interested in, and ridicule the people who ARE interested in it?

and post an "Astrology Sucks" thread. They'll love you for it.

:evilgrin:

No, really!

Here's my question: Why do people who've never read the books and so have zero idea what they're talking about constantly denigrate literate, well-read adults who believe the HP books to be thought-provoking, extremely well-written, and brilliant?

Cat

The latest book has multiple layers of political overtones. Here's just one; public education. As an American teacher, I was astounded by the mimicry of public education in America. I kept thinking, "This must be why the book took so long. JKR spent a couple of years in american schools."

The new headmistress wanted to raise standards, get rid of bad teachers, and bring back a rigorous curriculum to happy Hogwarts, only to be run out by a sock full of chalk dust and a wayward cane. She, of course, represented the stodgy, narrow minded, arrogance of the conservative wizarding community.

I'm not the only teacher to note this connection. I think I'll post a link over in Health/Ed/etc.

Found them quite funny (and chillingly like some of my past experiences). I'm a college lecturer, and our department just went through an internal review. Plus we have to distribute course evaluations at the end of each semester, which the curriculum committee has to look through. So I really sympathized with all the Hogwarts profs (especially Hagrid) -- I remember getting called in front of the chair because I had drawn a "z" axis out from the blackboard in one class, to illustrate 3d graphing, and a couple of students who had already decided to "get" me for making them rewrite a plagiarized assignment complained to the dean about it.


And those of my friends who aren't in academia are in government or private industry, and have similar processes at their workplaces ... the Rowling fans among them have bets out on whether JKR herself had a job like that, or has contacts who do!


After reading the book, I suspect that I'm a Hufflepuff type of person. In that long verse about the school, the Sorting Hat reveals that the Hufflepuff founder wanted magical education to be made available to everyone who had the ability -- while Slytherin thought it should be reserved for "purebloods", Gryffindor thought that it should be for the most daring (those who have the initiative to demand it?), and Ravenclaw wanted only the brightest. I'm sure not aristocratic, athletic, or ultra-intelligent, so I'm pulling for the Hufflepuffs to triumph!

and my wife teaches kids. Besides, I was truly amused by some of the stuff in this series. "Sarcastic profundity", indeed!

wasn't exactly Tolkien when it was published now was it?

you know a really bad movie? Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn. I mean I haven't actually READ those books, but they must really suck, the movie was awful.

wasn't exactly Tolkien when it was published now was it?

you know a really bad movie? Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn. I mean I haven't actually READ those books, but they must really suck, the movie was awful.

So what is the deal with the children of the Death Eaters?
Now that everything is out in the open, can they continue going to school as "normal"?

I think so, if only for plot reasons. :-) Seriously, my guess is that Dumbledore, being the fair-minded fellow he is, won't hold the sins of the father against the son (in Draco's case).

And anyway, since Dumbledore knew the truth anyway, wouldn't he have had concerns about the situation throughout the whole year? Why on earth would he have made Draco a prefect?

My recollection was that the house heads (McGonagall for Gryffindor, Snape for Slytherin) nominated prefects, with perhaps merely input from Dumbledore. But I could be wrong.

I mean, at least before knowing where Draco's loyalties are? Which brings me to the whole problem of Slytherin House. Why haven't reforms been instituted?

I was wondering this too. Perhaps Dumbledore is operating under the old adage, "The enemy you know is better than the one you don't?"

Especially since a member of the Order of the Phoenix (Snape) is the head? Or is it all some sort of elaborate cover for Snape to continue to have an "in" with Voldy-thing?

That too, is possible. Slytherin has always been the house that prides itself on clever, sly, subtle behavior.

Speaking of Snape, why hasn't Dumbledore had a sit-down with Snape and Harry to get the air cleared between them?

This has bugged me too, but again, I'm guessing this is just for plot reasons.

I was thinking Harry should have done this himself, after he saw Snape's worst memory. It was disappointing to me that he didn't.

Anyone have any thoughts on these issues? Or anything else? I'm dying to talk about the book, now that I've finished it. (I missed the earlier thread that probably dealt with these issues).

I am still trying to remember what "N.E.W.T." stands for. :-)

DTH

I love those cute acronyms. :-)

DTH

I dont know, sounds a little stupid to me. OWLs, ordinary wizarding levels made a lot more sense.

I can't remember offhand what NEWT actually stands for.

Then again, I could be wrong: Too much fanfic and you don't know what's from the real books and what is from the fic.

:shrug:

HOWEVER, it seems that there would have to be some sort of action taken. How do you send report cards to parents that are on the run? Wouldn't they be shunned or possibly harrassed by the rest of the student population?

My understanding from the book was that Dumbledore picked the prefects.
Possibly with input from the house heads, I'm not sure.

I also am disappointed with Harry's behaviour toward Snape in this book (and vice versa for that matter). See the previous post #2 by Finnfan that mentions Snape's possible motivations in this area. I really like it!!

on edit: added info

But that's the real beauty of this series of books - we see the stupid behavior of Harry's parents who, 95% of the time, were great, and we see Harry's stupidity and bad behavior, etc. I love Rowling for this, becuase the heros and righteous people are not perfect, like WAY TOO OFTEN happens in children's books.

We see here the TRUE NATURE of human living - even the best people have faults. Even the worst people have some positive points. I love that Rowling is willing to expose and offer the gray areas and the ambiguity and the humanity of people, and offer those examples to children.

Not to say that James Potter's treatment of Snape is good, but to say, "Look - this guy is really amazing, but when he was in high school, even he succumbed to temptation and did stupid, idiot things, but in the end, he still did okay" so as to tell kids, "There is hope after stupidity" and also "Not all good people are purely good, not evil people are purely evil" (except the Bush family, obviously, and the rest of the administration, which judgmental statement by me only tells me that I haven't quite actually learned the lesson....)

It can maybe clue people in to the fact that "harmless teasing" can get out of hand, and lead to long-term, lasting damage.

I also like your point about redemption, and turning things around. James Potter went from being an arrogant bully to a selfless freedom fighter.

Snape went from being a Death Eater to double-agent for Dumbledore.

What fun! I'm looking foward to the next two books, and what other new revelations to experience with the characters.

Thank God! So he won't just boot people out of Hogwarts based on associations.

Also, Malfoy's have a lot of influence and power, so politically he could not do so very easily.

As to Draco as prefect - wouldn't be surprised if either the family forced it, or Dumbledore did it to lighten his load (eliminating the certain harassment from Lucius if Draco didn't get it), and, I'm sure, clever thinking on Dumbledore's part to give Draco some power and see how he abuses it, perhaps with the hopes of really embarassing him.

As to not sitting down with Snape and Harry, Dumbledore seems the type to let people make their own peace at their own time; and certianly Dumbledore realizes full well what bothers Snape so much and what bothers Harry, and realizes that, until one of those two actually wants to discuss it with the other, there is no sense to be made in getting them together to discuss it.

until one of those two actually wants to discuss it with the other, there is no sense to be made in getting them together to discuss it. I think you've hit it exactly! Just forcing them to "bond" could possibly make their tumultuous relationship worse.

I mean, both Harry and Snape's lives are on the line, and their personal grudge is getting in the way of their protecting themselves and each other. Can Dumbledore afford to wait around for "the right time" for them to work it out? Sure, it would be better for them to have more of an internal motivation, but external forces are far too pressing for them to be behaving this way, IMHO.

he's not willing to destroy what is good to get at the bad. IF good can't stand on it's own merits, then what's the fucking point?

what I am still having difficulty with is that there have been times in my own life when someone gave me a good shake and asked me what the hell I was playing at --- I am grateful for those times, because even if I still felt myself to be in the right, the self-examination was beneficial. I think the situation between Harry and Snape could benefit from a third party intervention. But I guess that's just me reading my own experiences into the story.

Dumbledore might "shake him up a bit"; but I think Dumbledore, as well as myself, have faith that the overall goodness of Harry, and I'll say - the overall goodness, or at least dedication to truth and right - of Snape, will lead them both to reconciliation.

Given the truths that Harry has just learned, and which Snape now knows that Harry knows, and which I'm sure Dumbledore knows, I imagione Dumbledore realizes that what they both need is some time to process this new fact of their lives and realize - on their own - that they need to reconcile.

And on the other hand, let's say they DON'T come to that realization, I think Dumbledore has enough sense to let them never reconcile.

Unless, as I said in the subject, there is a true and immediate danger (maybe, "Harry - you misreable ass, Hermione/Ron/Existence is gonna die becuase of your pigheadedness, so stop acting like a selfish whiner or I'll blast you out of existence myself!"), there really isn't even a PRAGMATIC need for the two to reconcile. There is, one could say, a soul-based or pscyhe-based or spiritual-based need for reconciliation, but, they can still work together even if they spend the rest of their lives hating each other. Not as effectively, but they can work together.

And that kind of deep-seated hatred, which goes FAR FAR beyond mere misunderstanding or playground temporary hatred, will never be solved, no matter how much intervention someone else does, until and unless Snape and Harry both decide, on their own, to deal with it.

That's Dumbledore's genius, both to realize that AND to be patient enough to live with it, no matter how much more difficult it makes his job. This is what separates him from random asshole idiot non-leaders such as, oh, just to grab someone at random, that AWOL childish war criminal fuck Shrub. You know, just as an example.

You know, after pondering these posts, I can see that for some reason *I* have a need for Harry and Snape to make it up. I wonder why. I suppose it must be related to some personal issue of mine, can't put my finger on what it could be, though.
:shrug:

You could be correct in that you are putting your own issues into Snape's and Harry's relationship. Could be worth exploring (though I don't say that in a way that I think you're insane or in need of therapy or anything). I assume you are a person who doesn't like to have loose threads and personal grudges just hovering out there in the aether in your own life, perhaps...



After re-reading my example this morning, I have to say yeah, it was pretty good!

I really do think you hit the nail on the head for me.
It always bothers me to have those kinds of "issues" and when I thought about it for awhile, I actually discovered the parallel story in my own life.

Harry Potter-----is there anything those books CAN'T do?
:D

Dumbledore wouldn't be able to have a sit down--that would infer that Harry is Snape's equal when he isn't.


Regarding prefects--remember when Dumbeldore said that he couldn't have made Harry a prefect--he had too much on his mind.

I'm sure that the house heads send Dumbledore a list and he chooses from it. As for Malfoy, what other Slytherin character is as well known as him?

The Hufflepuff and Ravensclaw prefects weren't all that familar to me except Ernie Macmillian.



I just finished the book for the second time and I love it. Some criticisms of the book say that it is too long and she could have cut some parts out. I disagree. It wasn't a linear story and that's one of the things I really liked. There were so many subplots going on. I loved that.

I hadn't thought of the authority issue.

I think it was a good book also. I think it was better than IV. The sequence with Neville's mother made me cry.

I think JK will show us that Neville buffoonery is just that, an act. He knows far more than he tells, and uses his incompantancy as a shield. It protects him from undue expectations, he is the son of a powerful pair or Aurors, and it would naturally be the expectation of the rest that he follow in their footsteps.

He does get to see his parents, and fully understands why they were injured. They were too good at what they did, and therefore a threat to Voldemort. He had to stop them before they stopped him. Neville will need to face this fear, and rise to the occasion, when it is demanded of him. He is beginning to show real promise, it was Neville that stayed with Harry in the execution chamber, not Ron or Hermione.

He was really amping!!

I think he's gonna end up beingthe Nuclear Bomb (cf. Sun Ra "Nuclear War") of wizardry, at least at some particular skill. Not the total bomb that Dumbledore is, but Neville is going to find his power, and I bet it's gonna be pretty damn impressive!

Perhaps Neville will end up being the one to kill Voldemort. Or, barring the prophecy that it must be Harry vs. Voldermort, perhaps Neville in a fit of rage will "Disappear" the entire Malfoy family? That would totally rock.

Even the fact that he still has that "uncool" pet toad is rather endearing.

p.s. in high school, one of my friends had a mother who was institutionalized due to early-onset Alzheimers. There was (and often still is) such a stigma to the illness that he was often quite evasive about his home life, and going to visit her out of town at the facility on the weekends. He didn't tell people about it unless he was quite sure he trusted them. I recognized some of this in Neville's behaviour over the past couple of books re: his parents.

Before, he wasn't even at the level of competent. Now he's at the competent level along with Ron and Luna Lovegood - I consider Harry, Hermoine, and Ginny strong.

All of a sudden he's taking pride, not in his own accomplishments, but in how well others are doing under his guidance -- he's taking on a lot of responsibility (and making a lot of sacrifices) to do this, too.

One of the Rowling fans I work with had suggested, after the third book, that Harry might become a DDA prof himself at Hogwarts -- and eventually, succeed Dumbledore as headmaster. I dismissed it as wishful grad student thinking at first, but now I'm starting to wonder. He was right about Percy eventually turning his back on his family due to ambition.

Malfoy got his partly because of Harry's teaching?

Can't wait for the next book. Guess it'll be another 2 years at least.

Neville definitely grew in this book. This kid has a lot of potential and may be a powerful force in the future. Hell he may change from a bumbling forgetful kid to an Ass kicking Warrior.

I loved it and thought it was the best yet! BTW, I thought the movies were as good as they could be, with the exception of maybe having a more animated Harry.

I wonder why Crabbe was still in school at the end. I mean, he was even fighting in the battle at the Ministry of Magic. I've been waiting for a battle that good, BTW.

The power that Harry supposedly has wasn't explained well, except that it's in his heart. I'm assuming he's as honorable as Voldemort is evil.

What was that spell where the Death Eaters crossed their wands, I wonder?

As far as Sirius is concerned, maybe he was hit with an Avada Kadavra spell and went into the veil because he was dead? As I remember, the world of the dead was behind it.

I assume that Umbridge was trying to get Harry expelled, knowing he would use magic to get rid of the dementors? Because at the end, you would think Dumbledore wouldn't stand for attempted murder.

Bellatrix Lestrange is so powerful that maybe she's also a part of Voldemort somehow. I mean, Tonks and Kingsley are Aurors and they looked silly. Sirius was better - he just goofed by taunting.

I find Dumbledore's age explanation sufficient for other stuff.

of the Hogwarts student, not the goony sidekick of Draco.

As far as the final battle goes.....I have to admit I wasn't that impressed. It didn't come across that well to me. My problem was that I just couldn't really get a clear picture in my mind of the locations and the action-sequence. I really need to re-read it, and see if I can get a clearer picture. Unfortunately, I loaned the book to my sister and I'll have to wait for her to read it and give it back.

The unfortunate side-effect for me is that because that sequences was so muddled, the death of Sirius had almost no emotional impact for me. For me the climax was Dumbledore addressing Voldemort as "Tom". That was far more gripping, in my opinion. With that tiny name, Voldemort is no longer the fearsome LORD VOLDEMORT but merely Tom Riddle, former Hogwarts student, a simple boy. It is sad, almost, to think about how lonely Tom Riddle twisted into a monster.

I liked how all the characters were involved in the battle scene - and the attempted possession of Harry was interesting. I got so involved that sense of direction didn't bother me.