Some Advice For Hard Times: In My Position I See A Lot of Resumes.

I see a lot of people who I'd love to hire - not that I necessarily have jobs for everyone I wish I could hire - and I see a lot of people I would never dream of hiring, and usually I can tell in 30 seconds who is who and which is which.

For what it's worth, let me give you my impressions of dos and don'ts.

In this post, I'll start with entry level people with undergraduate degrees. My heart goes out to young people who are working hard at their educations, and who are entering a difficult job market with nothing more than academic educations and no experience.

I have cloaked what I actually do in the examples I give, because I believe that it applies across lots of fields.

If you're entry level, do:

1) Send me a resume that has a cover letter. Do not make grammatical errors. Use the spell checker. Say something that is not generic and rote. Make it succinct but focused. Here's an example: "I noticed that you are working on polymerization in highly ionic solvents, and I I found this was a topic that fascinated me in my PChem course and about which I wanted to learn more. I would be pleased to grow with your company because this is a area of strong interest to me."

2) This is only possible, of course, if you can show me that you are familiar with my company and what we do via independent research that shows you have called up our website and actually thought about what we do. A young man sent me what he called his "writing sample" and it was a short fragment of his write up of an undergraduate thesis. His point was that he knows my company does research, and he knows how to do it and how to communicate results. I didn't have an appropriate opening for him, but if I did, he would be the first one I would interview for it. He told me he could write and communicate. He referenced that he could do this with projects of the type my company does.

These are hard times, but he's going to have a great career. I can tell.

3) Use your knowledge obtained from point two to show me what you can do for my company. This goes in the cover letter. "I have been reading about phase diagrams connected with system x or y, and have read a few papers on it and would enjoy the chance to sound out some ideas that might move your project z along." That's a killer sentence, and will attract my attention and distinguish you from everyone else. Even if your ideas are lousy you're ahead of the game because you have ideas.

4) But be succinct. The truth is your resume and cover letter get 50 to 60 seconds, even though you have (or should have) worked hours on it. Be pithy and quick.

5) List any experience that is relevant to what I do. Particularly impressive is independent work. "I work on robots in my spare time..." Killer.

6) Choose a name for your computer file that reflects you know who you are talking to. Indicate your full name and the company to whom you are sending the resume. "John.Smith.Molten.Salt.Science.pdf" is a much better name for a file than "Susies.resume.anycompany.docx" I actually got a resume file named like the latter. It didn't get saved. "Latest.resume.doc" is also a bad choice. Same thing for your cover letter.

7) Choose a file format that is generic. If you have Microsoft Office for Windows Vista (God help you) be aware that not everyone has upgraded, and thus it will be a pain in the ass to open your file. Adobe Acrobat is easily downloaded for free. Everyone can read a *.pdf file. Best choice.

8) Tell me what courses relevant to the job you seek you have taken if you are trying to break in. "Organic Chemistry I and II." Programming C++. Physical Chemistry I, II, III." These matter. On the other hand I couldn't care less about the thesis you wrote on Christopher Marlowe and the status of Catholics in Elizabethan England. Sorry.

9) If I call you for an interview, and ask when you can come in, suggest something. Say, "would Tuesday at 2:00 pm fit in your schedule?"

Don't:

1) Tell me about your long term career plans that do not involve my company. I get these resumes from kids who say, "I have a 3.8 GPA and am thinking about applying to medical school," in their cover letter. Great. But I'm not going to invest time in training you in my company so you can leave for medical school. (I once had a guy work for me who got into medical school, and he was worthless to my company - I didn't hire him. Someone else did. In fact, I was pleased to ask him to leave earlier than he planned.)

I once hired a young woman who was going to dental school, though. She was a great employee, and took her work with me (while she worked for me) seriously and worked hard. She didn't mention it in her interview and I feel OK about that, because she was focused on this job while she interviewed for it, while she worked at it, and right up to day she left it. That's fine, because no waste was involved.

2) If you worked at Walgreens drug store, that's great. List it. Don't tell me all the gory details about stocking shelves, waiting on customers. I know, I know. Just say "Walgreen's Customer Service Associate 2002-2003." (On the other hand, if you won an attendance bonus or employee of the month, please mention it.)

3) Don't say anything negative about any of your jobs, even if you actually hated them. People tell me their boss was difficult. Maybe I'm difficult. Don't tell me that you quit because they were promoting other people and ignoring you even though you worked harder than everyone else. (People actually do this.) I'm going to assume a different reason for that than the one you wanted me to believe. If you left six positions - even menial positions - for more money, I have no reason to expect you won't do the same thing in a professional position.

4) Don't tell me anything about your religious or political views. They're not relevant. "Students for Obama at Penn State University" or "Milt Romney Campus Organizer" may accord with my views, but not those of my peers, superiors or even my direct reports. It is a work skill to keep one's mouth shut about some things.

5) Don't violate confidences from a previous employer. If you worked for my competitor as a summer intern and you promise to tell me about all of their technology or all of their costs and prices, I'm going to assume you will do the same to me when you leave.

6) Don't make sexist, racist, or other offensive jokes or remarks. You're dead immediately.

7) If you have had ten jobs in ten months - even menial jobs - you better have good reasons for that. Don't fail to explain them. They are red flags and need explanations. You may wish to skip listing some of them. Justifiable reasons are things like "temporary job," "company lost anticipated funding," "summer internship." (For an experienced person, this goes for ten jobs in ten years.)

8) If I call you for an interview, don't list all of the other things you have to do in the next week. "My boyfriend is coming over on Monday," "I'm interviewing with another lab tomorrow," "I'm getting a haircut," and so on are not good. They may give an impression of how serious you are about the job. Like I said earlier, suggest a time. If I suggest another time that conflicts simply say "I have a prior commitment at that time, how about...?"

9) Don't list hobbies that are not relevant to the job. You may be a member of a great rock band, but if I'm hiring you to run an NMR, it doesn't matter to me. On the other hand, if your hobby is doing mathematics, that may be relevant and do tell me.

10) If you think you're smarter than I am - and you may well be - you will have time to show me that when you are on the job. I'll respect that. On the other hand, if you try to communicate that to me when you hardly know what I do or who I am, we're not going to work together, trust me on that.

11) Don't let me know - even if its true - that you look at my job as a stepping stone to bigger and better things. "I figure if I work for you, this will help me break into a company like Merck."

This actually happened. Needless to say, no offer was made.

12) If you put on your resume that you know how to work a particular piece of equipment and have experience with it, don't come to an interview unable to describe the model you used, the software you used, etc, etc, even if it was at an academic institution.

13) Be reasonable about salary expectations. Research what entry level jobs pay, weigh your own flaws and strengths, and weigh how much you want to work. Nothing will improve your salary quite like experience.

14) Brush up on technical stuff before the interview, if the job is technical. Treat it like an exam. It is.

Well that's it for what it's worth. I hope someone will find this useful. It's a tough competitive world out there.

People would be well-advised to bookmark this. :patriot: :thumbsup:

I've been out of college for 30+ years and there are things here I will keep in mind and pass along to friends and associates who are looking. Kudos, NNadir!

Crosspost this so it doesn't get lost too quickly.

Crosspost this so it doesn't get lost too quickly.

Not that I don't love the Lounge, but this is a good OP and deserves many more eyes.

Thanks for posting.

(They barely look at the resume anyway, if they look at all.) Interesting.

EVERYTHING is mulled over. You've made it to a very short list of considered applicants, almost anything can cause a nod or an eyeroll.

Nods are better.

That's what so many don't understand when they're job searching - and why the resume can't be sloppy, poorly written, too wordy, or anything that isn't less than stellar.

They'll also look at your email address - if you send a resume from "lover-of-fatties@yahoo.com" or "smokeanotherbowl@gmail.com", your resume goes in the shitter.

Or if your voicemail message on your cell or home phone goes "Hey, you know who you called, leave a message" or "Yo! I'm probably nailing my girlfriend, leave a message" or some bullshit message with music and funny shit, you won't be getting a message left on there asking you to return the call for an interview.

Employers want professionals, not children.

We once interviewed an applicant with a very...memorable...email address. She didn't get hired, but we do still talk about her and we refer to her by her email address. This wasn't the only reason that she didn't get hired, but it suuuure as hell didn't help her.

Most of the time when you find tips like this its all about the bullshit on top. This one cut through the bullshit to the important stuff underneath.

I'm not looking for a job right now, but I'm gonna save this just for when I do.

Thanks for taking the time to share that advice, NNadir :toast:

:D

Thanks for posting. :hi:

Though I'm closer to the end of my working life than the beginning, it's still good info. I'd only add that when it comes to the money thing, don't say 'whatever you think is fair' to an employer. It'll cost ya! :toast:

thanks for posting.

I'm more or less one of the college kids you describe, and I like to think I've done fairly well in following your advice up 'till this point. I think it's all valid, for certain.

These are all great tips, and some of these apply to any job applicant. I have bookmarked this for future use if I leave my current job. If I may add one that I've noticed in my time on hiring committees:

If you are applying for a company that asks for a comprehensive resume and cover letter that "demonstrate the knowledge, skills, and abilities required for this position", do not copy/paste a list of requirements straight into your cover letter. You won't make it past stage 1.


Can't aggree more about grammar. That's always a killer. Entry level undergrads should have grammar skills, hopefully.

I'd also like to add:

If you have under ten years in the workplace, keep your resume to one page.

Once you've been out of college and working for more than five years, drop the GPA. Nobody is interested, they want to know your professional accomplishments. I just got a resume from someone who's been in the workforce for 29 years and it still had his GPA on it.

I have my GPA on my resume because I thought it would demonstrate successful multi-tasking -- an adult student, working full time, going to college and maintaining an above-average GPA.

Do you recommend I remove the GPA? My resume includes 20 years of work experience. BTW, I'm currently unemployed.

Thanks for your advice! :hi:

8 years out of school, you don't need the GPA. You should still list if you were cumma sum laude or other recognition, but GPA is irrelevant.

. . . what to leave in, what to leave out. :shrug:

so you're likely safe, but one never knows. Probably a few hard-asses out there, or a guy who's just having a bad day, who'll look at it and think, "God, 8 years later, still posting his GPA? Does that mean he's done nothing of accomplishment since graduating? Was that her last success?"

Good luck in the job search!

When I see a GPA on a resume from someone who's been out of school more than five years I think that person is padding to make up for a lack of professional accomplishments. It matters a lot when seeking employment as a recent college graduate but once you begin working in your field, it's what you have done THERE that is going to matter to a potential employer.

i may be back later with questions...(I'm far from entry level, though)

"6) Don't make sexist, racist, or other offensive jokes or remarks. You're dead immediately."


This has actually happened? Any hints for an older student (37) whose work experience has nothing whatsoever to do with the desired type of employment?

Often it is subtle stuff like making characterizations about a class of people. Examples include, "I worked with a lot of black people, and I'm able to get along with them."

"Some of my friends have trouble working with women, but I'm OK with them."

I've actually heard worse and less subtle though. Amazing but true.

You should not refer to racial, ethnic or religious classifications at all. You can't win and you can only lose.

Here's a hint for an older student: "After long experience in career X, I finally realized my life long dream to do Y, and recently completed my education as a Y'er."

That's a winner. I will want to hire you because I will expect you will enjoy working in my company.

People who think they could work with gays and help patients who are illegal aliens who can't speak English.

Um, okay. :eyes:

Not sexist jokes exactly, but I've seen people submit portfolios for a corporate graphics job, and include drawings of oversexualized nudes (giant breasts, tiny waists, etc.) Dudes. If it's a corporate job, I really don't need to see renderings of your naked sex-fantasy women. Save it for another type of graphics job (tattoo parlor, perhaps).

I also see a lot of resumes and do a lot of interviewing. Recently, we were interviewing candidates for a high level computer engineering job. One of the applicants was shown in to the interview room by a pretty attractive receptionist. After the door closed, I swear to god, the first thing out of his mouth was "If I get the job, will I be able to work UNDER her?" (emphasis on UNDER) Yea, he didn't even make the first cut, even though his resume was one of the best we had.

It is greatly appreciated by this job seeker.

I have some advice for you, the hiring company:

1.) If you already have a strong internal candidate that you are going to hire no matter, don't waste my time bringing me for an interview. Hire your candidate and be done with the process.

2.) Please show up to the interview on time. Just because I am not working that does not mean that you can start the interview whenever you feel like it. It's rude and unprofessional and it shows how little you think of your employees. I also hired people, and I made sure that I freed up the time to do the interview, and I was always on time.

3.) If you place your openings with multiple recruiters, then don't get all upset when you have multiple submisssions. Sometimes recruiters don't tell you who they are submitting your resume to.

4.) Put the name of your company in your ad with a full job description. HOW CAN I DO RESEARCH ON YOUR COMPANY WHEN DON'T PUT ITS NAME IN YOUR AD?!!! Also, I've seen typos in job ads as well. It does not reflect well on your company.

5.) Please acknowledge receipt of the resume and please inform me the candidate if they were not selected for an interview. This is not that difficult to do with an email program like Outlook.

6.) When it comes to requirements for the position, list the actual requirements. Don't list everything and the kitchen sink in your ad. Asking for 10 years of experience with Oracle, SQL Server, MySql, Sybase, C#, C++, Java, AJAX, Javascript, Windows Azure, Cisco, ASP, JSP, PMP, and an MBA all for a help desk job is fucking ridiculous.

7.) Finally, if the candidate does not get the job, please have the common courtesy to send them a rejection letter. If you have the time to watch Youtube videos at work, then you have the time to write a rejection letter.

I know that times are hard, and I know that employers are having a field day because of it. Right now, they are the feudal lords, but what goes around comes around. When times get back to normal, shitty employers will have a hard time finding top talent, and they will have to over pay for mediocre talent.

Also, while you enjoy seeing the masses plead for work from you, understand this. If this economy does not recover, you too will be out on the street looking for work just like the rest of us.

-- Peace

was being constructed, people used to cheer outside the gates when someone fell off.

It meant a job opening.

I didn't create this situation, I am only describing the reality of it.

I feel bad for anyone who is out of work. You cannot imagine the highly qualified people who have had their scientific jobs cut by stupid MBA's with history degrees who know no science and who are destroying scientific intellectual infrastructure out of ignorance and myopia.

(The CEO of Pfizer is a guy who couldn't pass a physical chemistry course and so changed his major to business, where he proceeded to destroy tens of thousands of careers of people who are by far his intellectual and moral superiors.)

I try to be respectful of everyone whose resume I receive, and do send acknowledgments and encouragement to those I cannot even interview because I have no position to offer, in some cases where the resumes are unsolicited..

However, if I spent my day responding to unsolicited resumes, I wouldn't have time to do my job.

That's how it is. I am fully aware of the tenuousness of my own position in this economy. I'm not - whatever you think - being smug. I am trying to be helpful. Take it for what it's worth.

Good luck to you.

May you find a way to get over your possibly justified anger and take a deep breath.

I've been hearing such advice since I was in Jr. High School in 1978. It's nothing new nor innovative. It's trite. If there are people who are putting misspelled words on their resume, then they're hopeless, esp. in this day and age of spell checkers.

Also, I wasn't referring to unsolicited resumes. What I was talking about was resume submissions to actual job postings. Also, may I suggest that your company's websites place a notice that you have no openings at the moment and kindly suggest that people NOT send their resumes. That would alleviate your burden.

Here's better advice for the unemployed. Do something where you can demonstrate your skills AND help you learn NEW things. For example, in your field, which is chemistry I presume, find a research project for a professor or a researcher and work for free to gain experience and knowledge, even if that means sweeping the floor at the start.

If you're an UE lawyer, work on a political campaign as a volunteer.

For me, I'm unemployed, and I am in IT. Tomorrow, I have an interview with a technology center in Harlem. This center is trying to bridge the digital divide. Who knows where such an opportunity will lead?

Fixing typos on a resume does not get you work ITE. What will get you work is having the right tool set of skills and connections for when the economy recovers.

Finally, I'm not angry. I just don't like hacks.

I'm sure from your attitude that you are a hugely superior person far more human than say, someone who works the "help desk."

I wouldn't dream of hiring you if I had a job for your skill set, since you describe pretty accurately exactly what I am trying to address.

I wouldn't be suprised if the way you throw around insults and smug supercilious remarks says something about your career situation, but I'm sure that there are lowly companies that may someday be worthy of your august and superior skill set and your sense of entitlement.

I am telling you about how I judge resumes. If you don't like it, you can avoid me off by not applying and waiting until you find a company that is worthy of your consideration. Clearly I think we both agree that neither one of us would be interested in working with the other. If you have enough food on your table, and a roof over your head, and you can afford to find the perfect opportunity through noble projects, I'm not here to tell you what to do.

You're an adult, I think.

I assure you that volunteer opportunities in chemistry are limited, and for liability reasons alone we usually don't just let anyone work in the lab.

Effectively, if you really consider the matter, graduate school is sort of like a volunteer position since nobody really gets paid enough for what they do. It's not like they pay you to stay up past midnight trying to crystallize 2 mg of some damn compound that's taken six months of sleepless nights to synthesize.

There are, however, people with Ph.D's, two or three post docs in world class laboratories who are out of work.

That's hardly my fault. If you must know your highness, it literally breaks my heart.

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and it's not hard to implement.

A company that has no openings should put a statement to that effect on its website.

When I'm researching translation agencies as a free-lancer, it is helpful (although disappointing) to see statements such as "We currently have enough translators for the languages we work in and are not accepting new free-lancers."

Two much is ridding on your resume too us a cheep substitute four knowing how too spell. That sentence contains a typo every quarter-inch but a spelling checker, which knows how to match words in your file against words in its dictionary, will say it's a perfectly fine, well-constructed sentence.

A resume, no matter how brilliant, no matter how well typed, no matter how well structured is not the reason why most people are not getting jobs, and offering that up as advice to job seekers is trite.

Of course, you should review your resume and have it reviewed by neutral parties. I learned that when I was in Jr. High School, and it's been told to me a million times. Also, I'm sure that most people already know this, and for this poster to post this is condescending, arrogant, and offensive.

that they should check for typos, poor grammar, generically worded cover letters that are clearly not being rewritten for each specific job being applied to, and so on.

There's an awful lot of shitty job application going on out there. Which is fine if you're looking for work in some third-tier small company or broker's office out in the middle of nowhere (although in this job environment, even those places can be picky). But if you want a job at a major company, or a high up position in a lesser company, you better rise above the rest of the applicants. One easy way to do that is NOT TO BE SLOPPY.

That's the OP's point.

Because sloppiness abounds.

a job if they get one.

this economic turndown IS different.

As for me, I am coming to the conclusion I will have to work for myself in some kind of endeavor to be determined. It's just hopeless in my case.

the opportunity to even get an interview.

If you can't understand the difference between those two ideas, then that's a problem.

That was fun. I've read a lot of these types of situations before.

"1.) If you already have a strong internal candidate that you are going to hire no matter, don't waste my time bringing me for an interview."

And they're also wasting your money, the money you spent to make the trip, dry-cleaning bills...

See also: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=362x821

It is SO true.

then they couldn't make you feel like a loser for not meeting their high standards, and you wouldn't be pitifully grateful for their offer of a lesser position with lower salary, little long-term security, fewer/no benefits, etc.

From their point of view, it's a winning strategy. Besides, maybe someone will actually *meet* all those requirements, and if he's applied for the job where the salary is given in the ad, how likely is it that they'll feel obligated to offer him what he's really worth ?

Since we are trying to do it right here :)


"polymerization in highly ionic solvents, and I I found this was a topic"

should be-

"polymerization in highly ionic solvents; and I I found this was a topic"



"my PChem course"

should have space

"my P Chem course"
(Actually, on edit, you should probably spell it out. In this age of people using ty, omg, and np all the time it looks cheesy. Another reason is because it is a college course.

Acronyms are only to be used if it's common in the industry. For example: "I have extensive knowledge of SIP protocol and RTP." You wouldn't have to spell that out because the audience would know what you are talking about, and again it's common in the industry.



"because this is a area of strong interest"

should be

"because this is an area of strong interest"


"I once had a guy work for me who got into medical school, and he was worthless to my company"

missing comma

"I once had a guy work for me, who got into medical school, and he was worthless to my company"


"know - even if its true - that you look"

it's not its

"know - even if it's true - that you look"

"polymerization in highly ionic solvents, and I I found this was a topic"

should be-

"polymerization in highly ionic solvents; and I I found this was a topic"


His way is right. A conjunction such as "and," "but," etc. should never follow a semicolon when the semicolon is being used to connect two independent clauses. That said, the second independent clause should lose one of the two "I"s.



"I once had a guy work for me who got into medical school, and he was worthless to my company"

missing comma

"I once had a guy work for me, who got into medical school, and he was worthless to my company"

His way is kinda right. A dependent clause that describes the object of the sentence shouldn't be separated from the object by a comma -- at least in most cases. That said were I editing this, I would probably have rewritten it to simplify which noun was the object. Something like "I once hired a guy who got into medical school, and he was worthless to my company."

We just about got it perfect now :)

Can't have an OP talking about perfection on ones resume with all kinds of errors :P

I do understand where the OP's coming from. You wouldn't believe some of the god-awful resumes we get sent at my job, and I work in the writing/publishing industry, fer chrissake.

for those lucky enough to get an interview--

In our office we have a team interview. I'm always on the team because I'm the boss. One other person is always on the team, a receptionist who is a person of color (she is the representative from our affirmative action committee). If an applicant does not look at her when answering her questions, the applicant does not get hired. We are a team at this office, with everyone doing critical jobs that keep our office functioning. We want to hire people who understand that all who work here are critical to our success.

It is amazing to me how many people look at me when they answer any question from anyone on the team. (And I do not sit across from the applicant so that is not the reason.) Interestingly, at least to me, there are still some male applicants who only look at the men on the hiring committee, never looking at me. Those people don't get hired either.

that applicants should make a point to also speak to women in the room but I see you covered it as well.

As the only woman and technical lead of a prior team, I had final say over the hiring decision. I can't tell you how many dingbats sat there talking only to the guys on the team while ignoring me. Whoopsie, no cake for you.

It really is brutal out there in the job market. Give yourself EVERY advantage you possibly can or you will get nowhere.

I still can't believe the number of résumés I get with spelling and grammatical errors. Of course, these go straight in the trash at the very beginning of the review process, and I wonder why these people even bother.

I keep getting e-mails from job boards who constantly try to sell me their resume services to include keywords, bullet points, etc. Is that important to recruiters? Or is it a waste of money, as I'm inclined to think?

Thanks!

:hi:

I also look over a lot of resumes, and your advice is spot-on. I would add, though, that applicants should leave their notes at home. More and more, I get applicants who can't answer a simple question without referring to their notes. One actually answered the question of "Give a definition for Microsoft Exchange Server that an average user would understand" with "I have a 5 minute lecture prepared for that - would you like to hear it?". It came off as both condescending and naive in the same sentence.

It seems to be something that's recommended now by colleges or job clinics. I don't mind if the applicant brings notes to occasionally refer to such as their employment history, certification list, etc. I don't expect them to have everything in their life memorized. But c'mon - if you can't think well enough on your feet to answer a simple question pertaining to the job description then you're not going to get hired.

This is great and well-articulated advice NNadir.

-app

PDF is all well and good, but speaking as an IT veteran, it is rarely possible to CREATE a PDF in Windows for free. There is a utility that can be downloaded for Office 2007 that allows you to create PDFs for free, but if you have an earlier version of Office (2003, XP, 2000), you're out of luck.

As a technical person, I submit my resume where possible in HTML. EVERYBODY can read HTML, and it's easily searchable too, not to mention the fact that MS Word (all versions) can save written documents AS HTML and preserve such formatting as tables, shadows, minor graphics, lists, bullets, and of course all text formats like bold and italic.

(BTW: If your job IS technical, it never hurts to prove via the formatting of your resume that you can a) make computer programs do exactly what you want and b) communicate effectively through the use of multiple delivery systems, such as tables and lists where appropriate, graphical (but understated) bullets, and so on. You're putting on a suit for that interview, so your resume should look just as snazzy as you do.)

PDF works great as a fallback. So does XML, since most programs made after 2002 can read it.

As a final note, NEVER send a Word document (.doc) to a potential employer via email. You have a 90% probability that it will be blocked by the server and your target audience will never see it. (It has to do with macro security, if you're curious.:))