Dean Underfunded Public Defender's Office (prior to 9-11)

It seems at one time Howard Dean didn't think the poor deserve equal representation under the law. From the Rutland (Vermont) Herald:


For the Defense

Dean chose not to reappoint Appel for a third four-year term as defender general, the state official who heads the state’s public defender program. In appointing Valerio, of Proctor, the new defender general, Dean had kind words for Appel. But Appel had clashed with Dean on numerous occasions in his efforts to secure for his office the resources necessary to fulfill his duties conscientiously.

Just two years ago Dean tried to prevent Appel from accepting a $150,000 federal grant aimed at assisting defendants with mental disabilities. For Dean to block a government agency from receiving federal money was unusual in itself. But Dean’s openly expressed bias against criminal defendants provided a partial explanation.

Dean has made no secret of his belief that the justice system gives all the breaks to defendants. Consequently, during the 1990s, state’s attorneys, police, and corrections all received budget increases vastly exceeding increases enjoyed by the defender general’s office. That meant the state’s attorneys were able to round up ever increasing numbers of criminal defendants, but the public defenders were not given comparable resources to respond.

The problem with giving a disproportionate share of state resources to prosecution and enforcement is that it throws the justice system out of kilter. A just result occurs in court only when the prosecution and defense both are ably represented. Thus, Appel felt compelled two years ago to notify the court that the Rutland public defender’s office would take no new cases unless the defendant was in jail. The Rutland office was so short of staff that case backlogs threatened to overwhelm the public defenders.

CONTINUED...

http://rutlandherald.com/Archive/Articles/Article/31792

on edit: = opinion.

This is from the Public Defender referenced above. Now what could he be saying Howard Dean doesn't agree with? The Bill of Rights part? From the Rutland Herald:

August 18, 2001
(from the Letters to the Editor section)

Defending defendants’ rights

Thanks for your kind words and those of Tracy Schmaler and Diane Derby before her and your consistent support for the value of the role of indigent defense in ensuring true justice. By acknowledging that we as a society need to: 1) provide adequate funding for all segments of the criminal justice system, including defense; 2) provide access to effective treatment for 80 percent of offenders who have substance abuse problems, and, 3) ensure that the protections provided by the Bill of Rights are embraced, you have done an invaluable service to promoting understanding by the public that defenders are key and do make a difference. Please continue to inform the community of these critical concerns.

ROBERT APPEL

(Defender general) Montpelier

http://rutlandherald.com/Archive/Articles/Article/31915

With Howard in the starring role of Inspector Callahan.
Deans holds forth as fact, the REPUBLICAN based myth that the criminal justice system bends over backwards to favor the defendent, when ALL the fact point to the exact opposite. In the last ten years, due to the avaiablilty of DNA methods, nearly 1/3rd of all the people on Death Row in the U.S. have been found to be innocent.

Dean, as in all things bases his political decision, life and deatth decisions, on his personal opinion, and is totally unwilling to acept facts from any source other than his own head.

For the defense
August 16, 2001

(from the Editorials section)
Dean chose not to reappoint Appel for a third four-year term as defender general, the state official who heads the state’s public defender program. In appointing Valerio, of Proctor, the new defender general, Dean had kind words for Appel. But Appel had clashed with Dean on numerous occasions in his efforts to secure for his office the resources necessary to fulfill his duties conscientiously.

Just two years ago Dean tried to prevent Appel from accepting a $150,000 federal grant aimed at assisting defendants with mental disabilities. For Dean to block a government agency from receiving federal money was unusual in itself. But Dean’s openly expressed bias against criminal defendants provided a partial explanation.

Dean has made no secret of his belief that the justice system gives all the breaks to defendants. Consequently, during the 1990s, state’s attorneys, police, and corrections all received budget increases vastly exceeding increases enjoyed by the defender general’s office. That meant the state’s attorneys were able to round up ever increasing numbers of criminal defendants, but the public defenders were not given comparable resources to respond.

The problem with giving a disproportionate share of state resources to prosecution and enforcement is that it throws the justice system out of kilter. A just result occurs in court only when the prosecution and defense both are ably represented.


http://rutlandherald.com/Archive/Articles/Article/31792

Or try this, from a national journal for heads of public defenders department all over the U.S.



Support Your
Colleagues Under Siege
•
After fighting the “good fight”
as head of the Vermont defender
system for eight years, Defender
General Robert Appel has just
been notified that the Governor will
not reappoint him. Vermont news-
papers report that Robert’s zealous
advocacy to obtain resources and
other initiatives to support and im-
prove Vermont’s indigent defense
system had many times put him at
odds with the state’s chief executive

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:OpvVyQ9UsIkJ:www.nlada.org/DMS/Documents/1007060084.73/ACCD%2520Executive%2520Summary,%2520Vol%25201%2520No%25203.PDF+%22Robert+Appel%22++%22federal+grant%22&hl=en&ie=UTF


A Dean quote again...Dirty Harry could not have said it better

In an interview his first week as governor, Dean made it clear where he stood: “My view is that the justice system is not fair. It’s not fair. It bends over backwards to help defendants and is totally unfair to victims and to society as a whole ...,” he said.


Dean subsequently supported toughening the guidelines for people qualifying for a public defender and limiting the services defenders provide to prisoners.

If in fact Dean does replace Appel, it will be under similar circumstances in which the governor brought him into the job.

In 1993, Dean opted not to reappoint then-Defender General E.M. “Bud” Allen, explaining that he wanted someone in the position who would focus more energy on the fiscal management of the office.

Dean replaced Allen with Appel, who at the time was an assistant attorney general. Prior to his time in the Attorney General’s Office, Appel worked in the Defender General’s Office.

Strains in relations between Dean and Appel appeared fairly early.

Months after Appel was appointed, a study was released showing that public defenders in the state were receiving low wages.



http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/31711.html

This a a copy of and article from the Spangenberger report indicating the grant that Appel obtained and which Dean opposed, leading to his decision to not reappoint Mr Appel. It was a grrant to provide those who are mentally disabled with proper legal defense. Mr Appel had to find additional sources of funding due to the Governor's antiquated and punitive ideas about the criminal justice system

Deans archaic ideas about the criminal justice system and the socio-economic roots of crime and substance abuse are SO conservative that it is impossible to find anyother democrat who supports such overwhelmingly barbaric ideas.

They show in his massive and unwarranted ideas about drug treatment, medidcal marijuana, and his simply neo-con like ideas about the role of public defenders in the United States. I would not be suprised if PNAC and other Neo-cons did not get base their philosophy and docreine by following Deans career as governor.

http://www.spangenberggroup.com/newsletter/TSG_vol5_issue1.pdf

Deans supporters must continually twost and turn to find furtther justifications for Deans overwhelming NEO-CON nature.

Dean is a complete SUPERCONSERVATIVE.

He hass had to completely hide all record and evidence of this as well as he can, and simply lay out a presidential campaign based on total lies.

Dean NEVER balanced the Vermont budget deficit he was left with. The mechanism that did this was set in polace before he took office.

Vermont NEVER had a health care system that provided one mopre person with heath care than would have had Dean never come to office.

The Vemront government itself did a stusdy at Dean behest that showed that Vermonts health care delivery system was it total chaos. In No place outside of Deans own campaign will anyone find that the health care delivery system in Vemront is ever rated as anything but AVERAGE, among all of ther states.

Dean is a liar. in journalistic jargon, the Vermont does all but call him a liar directly:

Although sometimes loose with the truth, Dean's attack strategy seems to have paid off. He has put his opponents on the defensive and has drawn considerable attention from political commentators and Democratic contributors. Polls show him neck and neck with Kerry in the critical New Hampshire primary and closing in on the favored Gephardt in the Iowa caucuses.

As Dean becomes a top-tier candidate, however, his casual approach to facts and abusive tactics against his opponents could get him into serious trouble -- and severely damage Vermont's reputation for political civility and intellectual honesty.


http://www.sover.net/~auc/deanbites.htm

This about says it all. The only way Dean is getting to the top of the polls is by the Republican route. Lying. Attacking other candidates, keeping his politicval record sealed, and attacking again.

Dean is a flat out liar.

His supporters cannot find on shred of evidence verifying any of Dean claims as governor outside of his own campaign, and are afraid of ANY suggestion that they even do so.

THey LIKE the lies they are hearing from Dean.

The fact that Dean has no intention of keeping to his campaign platform if elected does not matter to them at all.

But the statements that Dean has made about the crimian ldefense system hasproven that he would be a greater danger to civil liberties than the existing patriot act, and even Patriot II.

Deans paranoic belief about the criminal justice system are serious proof that he desires to put an end to the right to a fair trial, regarless of race or economic status. They fly in the face of the truth that if a large percentage of the p
And like John Ashcroft. Dean just beleive that they are not entitled to a fair trial. Like they even get a fair trial when the public defenders offices see their bugets cut by Dean, but the prosecutors are given big increases.

Finally, when Dean announce his candidacy, this brief little description if Dean was published:

Dean said he was running because “most of all, I wanted my party to stand up for what we believe in.” But the liberal Democratic tag defies his record in Vermont, where Dean was known as a centrist, pro-business governor for 12 years.

He battled Democrats to restrain spending and balance the state budget, even pushing for cuts in human services programs such as benefits for the aged, blind and disabled.

He nominated tough-on-crime judges, most of them former prosecutors. And he imposed work requirements on welfare recipients well before President Bill Clinton did.



http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/930144.asp?0cv=cb10#BODY

Everything about Dean smacks of republican. His own supporters must struggle, but can never find evidence of Deand ever adhering to, or supporting ONE piece of legislation, or asking for legislation, to improve the lives of anyone but the wealthy and big corporation.

They got very wealthy with Dena as governor. but thousands of small family ownd businesses went under due to Deans bringing Wal-Mart and dozens of ather large corporations, into the downtown areas in which many of these businesses had thrived for decades. Dean destroyed many a family business with the stroke of a pen.

Would you like us to post some of our more damning quotes from the Boston Herald which doesn't much care for Kerry? Having read substantially from both the Rutland rag and the Boston Herald, the BH comes across as far more credible and the Kerry's historical problems as being far more real and far more grave. The Rutland stuff has been rebutted over and over and over again, point for point on the merits and on subtance.

I have resisted posting the anti-Kerry articles for one reason only: because I don't want to turn DUers off to voting for Kerry if he should be our candidate in the general. You and a few other rabidly flame-throwing Kerryistas, on the other hand, seem to have no such compunctions.

Under the circumstances, I don't know how much longer my ladylike restraint can be counted on to protect your candidate.

Did not fund the pubic defenders office, incrased funding to the prosecutors and the police, and prison population in Vermont doubled while Dean was governor. 85 percent of the prisoners were in jail for fisrt time posession of pot of some other nmon violent crime due to Deans changes.

Back this up. I want a reputable news article stating that:

85 percent of the prisoners were in jail for fisrt time posession of pot of some other nmon violent crime due to Deans changes.


Put up or shut up.

where is the link?

The bulk of people in Vermont's prisons on minor charges are those who were given a community sentence (probation, parole or house arrest) and knowingly broke the rules placed upon them after being given a second chance. You can't blame Dean when a drunk driver who gets probation turns around and does it again after being told quite clearly that if they do, they will have to serve out their sentence. Seeing as I drive with my children on Vermont's roads I have to say that I'm all for locking folks like this up for awhile if they insist on endangering me and mine. Seeing as Vermont prisons have a top notch substance abuse program and AA meeting with people from the community, it might just do a drunk driver some good.

you are a one trick pony, for sure..you have single handedly made yourself insignificant..one purpose...

Perhaps he's got a shot in the South after all. I still remember when Clinton took time off from campaigning to head back to Arkansas to preside over the execution of a mentally retarded death row inmate. Craven as all get out, but probably a shrewd political move.

Dean names Rutland lawyer next defender general
August 15, 2001

(from the Top Story section)
By TRACY SCHMALER

Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER — Rutland lawyer Matthew Valerio has been tapped to become the state’s next defender general.

Valerio, a criminal defense lawyer in Vermont for the past 12 years, will take the job now held by Defender General Robert Appel next month, Gov. Howard Dean announced Tuesday.

“To me this is a great challenge in an area I love,” said Valerio, who has worked as a contract attorney in the public defense system for the last few years. “I honestly have a passion for the criminal justice system.”

Next month marks significant changes in Valerio’s life. In addition to his new job, the 37-year-old Proctor resident also will be installed as the next president of the Vermont Bar Association.




http://timesargus.nybor.com/Archive/Articles/Article/31763.html

Sorry...

A President Howard Dean will be a George Bush and John Ashcroft rolled into one.


Vermont Defender General Robert Appel Not Re-Appointed to Post: Underscores the Value of Indigent Defense Commission Model and Need for Independence of the Defense Function

August 17, 2001 - In August, Vermont Governor Howard Dean appointed Matthew Valerio as Defender General ending the tenure of Robert Appel, who held the post for over eight years. In Vermont, the Defender General serves at the will of the Governor. The appointment of a new Defender General had been rumored for many months, because of public disagreements Mr. Appel and Governor Dean had over the funding of the state's indigent defense system. (Further details to be published in the next issue of The Spangenberg Report).

http://www.spangenberggroup.com/pr_081701.html


Yes, Dean like other rich people didnt beleive that the poor should have adequate money provided for public defense, so cut the finding and just started throwing them in jail

“I am very impressed with Matt’s work with the Bar Association, his focus on attorney training and teamwork, his commitment to indigent defense and his proven ability to run a law practice,” Dean said.

The governor also had praise for Appel: “I very much appreciate Robert’s eight-plus years as defender general. Robert has been a strong and effective defender general who will be missed. Eight years is a long period of service in any administration and I was fortunate to have his services for two full terms.”

from Texas? The one who pats people on the back that he's about to get rid of or underfund their departments?

Dena did exactly as Bush did. Appel was one of the nations most repspected public defenders, and Deans actions simply reflected Deans desire to get rid of the Bill of Rights, or at least to re-write it in his own image.

As Dean himself has said:

Dean's comments on civil liberties cause alarm
September 14, 2001

By DAVID GRAM The Associated Press

MONTPELIER — Gov. Howard Dean's call for a “re-evaluation” of some of America's civil liberties following this week's terrorist attacks was criticised Thursday by a Vermont Law School professor.

“Good God,” Vermont Law School Professor Michael Mello said when read the remarks Dean made at a Wednesday news conference. “It's terribly irresponsible for the leader of our state to be saying stuff like that right now.”

Benson Scotch, the head of the Vermont chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union, said it was simply too soon after the attacks to engage in the sort of debates Dean called for.

Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street.”

Dean said he had not taken a position on these questions. Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights — the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution — would have to be trimmed, the governor said:

“I haven't gotten that far yet. I think that's unlikely, but I frankly haven't gotten that far. Again, I think that's a debate that we will have.”



http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/33681.html

Monday :: July 21, 2003


More on Howard Dean and Criminal Defendants
We wrote last week about a Vermont newspaper editorial critical of Howard Dean's view of indigent defense and criminal defendants while he was Governor of Vermont. We were hoping he would address this on his blog and debunk the charge. We haven't seen any response. But we did receive this from a lawyer whose integrity we trust and who was a former public defender in Vermont.

I was a public defender in Vermont during part of Dean's tenure. He was openly hostile to the defense function. He once addressed a meeting of defense attorneys by stating that "my job is to make your job as difficult as possible." He is a man of his word, at least on this campaign promise. He did not want to fund public defense.

To his credit he appointed Robert Appel to the post of Defender General (Public Defender in charge of the state system.) Then he refused to reappoint Appel apparently because Robert was most effective on the shoestring budget he was given.

Dean, despite his present self proclaimed environmental advocate status, was fairly hostile to environmental concerns while Governor. Dean repeatedly appointed pro business, non environmentally sensitive people to the Environmental Board. In Dean's logic, any business that would provide a half dozen minimal wage jobs could do what they wanted to the environment. When I returned to New Jersey, I could observe that the only real difference between N.J. and VT environmentally (at least under Dean) was that VT had 7.5 million less residents.

http://www.talkleft.com/archives/003739.html

there is a word for this. It is chickenshit.

The lawyer wants to avoid retaliation, as it is a quite common practice to retaliate against empolyees who blow the whistle. Dean was FAMOUS for doing so.

The source of this true story can't be revealed because of fear of retaliation, for which Kerry is FAMOUS. The very real proof that he's famous for it can't be revealed because of fear of retaliation.

(I considered starting a new thread instead of kicking this one but decided that it still wouldn't be worth it just to show some stubborn bullshit artists...)

Howard Dean said so.

EDIT: Removed "Forkboy," inserted "Howard Dean."

Remember he isn't gov of Vermont. This is a chickenshit who won't back up his charges. Like all the chickenshits who trashed Clinton, Gore, and any other Democrat.

Of working in a profession where blacklisting is common.

You put all of the articles toghether, and there is more than enough circumstantial evidence to convict Dean of attempting to destroy the right to fair trial.

Again. perhaps much of thea "EMBARASSING" truth about this is locked up in the records that Dean tried to get sealed for what would amount to the rest of his life, if he had obtained the 20 years he searched for.

Deans action make John Ashcroft and the Patriot Act look like the greates supporters of civil liberties since the founding fatthers, since Dean DOUBLED the number of people in prisons in Vermont, many without the benefit of decent defense due to Deans cuts.Whereas federal actions had nothing like this effect on those arrested.

Patriot Act and has been praising Ashcroft's performance at all of his campaign stops. With a little bit of skill, he will succeed in his desire to destroy all of defendant's rights. What an asshole he is.

Can you say Republicans I knew you could. The opposition party to Dean is in power now. Far from being blacklisted this person would be feted for trashing Dean, yet still no name. Chickenshit by any other name is still as rank.

No more "chickenshit" than a DUer with little or no personal information about themselves on the their profile, or with their profile diasabled.

Why should someone whistleblow, and then have their entire career and earning power destroyed-especially by the vindictive who don't like what he or she has to say.

You might remember them THEY ARE THE OPPOSITION PARTY. Maybe your excuses make sense for when the article first came out but not now. Not when REPUBLICANS RULE UP THERE.

Although I haven't yet decided who to back, I have consistently defended Dean against the many egregious attacks here at DU. In this case I feel compelled to note that Dean really didn't stand up for the right thing. How do I know? During the period in question I had frequent contact with Robert Appel. He did a good job as Defender General, particularly championing rights of defendants with mental disabilities. I don't know the particulars of why Dean turned down the grant Nicholas J mentioned.

The Rutland Herald is not a partisan hack paper. Two years ago the editor won the Puliter Prize for editorials for the pro-civil union pieces he wrote. Tracey Schmaler, who recently became Jim Jefford's Press Secratary is/was a fine journalist.

Robert Appel is now the head of the Vermont Human Right Commission. I don't know if he supports Dean or not. I ran into him a couple of months ago and we did talk about the Governor's run in general political terms. He does not, I think, bear any personal animus towards Dean. I don't know if he supports him or not.

It should be obvious to anyone that I'm not flaming Dean. I liked him as Governor. He's not some conservative in liberal fleece. Nor is he a DK type liberal. I've said it before, and I'll say it again; he's not an easy guy to label. Comparing him to Bush or Ashcroft is merely hot and heavy-and empty- rhetoric. However Dean's got his warts, and in eleven years as Governor he took positions I disagreed with. This one happens to be the one that bothered me the most.

(I'm tired, I don't feel like proof reading this. Please forgive any typos or spelling errors.)

the problem with this piece is no facts are given. How much was cut? When? If you know this please fill us in. I don't think that is too much to ask for.

Could you clarify that question for me? What do you mean when you ask how much was cut? Do you mean from the PD's budget? I don't know the answer to that. I don't even know if any was cut, I do know that the office was chronically underfunded even as their case load grew. I can find out for you. Not tonight, but I can talk to a couple of folks and get back to you later in the week

And oh yeah, for you Dean bashers, Vermont is very different from NJ and it ain't just population. Our environmental laws are some of the strongest in the country and Dean did not try and subvert them, something our new Repuplican governor is working diigently on. Vermonters are justly proud of the environmental record here. Act 250, no billboards, not a one, preservation of our town centers and significant land conservation including the Champion land deal with it's core environmental area, something Dean fought like hell for.

I do mean the PD budget. Every department head wants his budget increased. But that doesn't get to happen. I am more than willing to look at a factual article about his or in your case a factual interview of the prime player. What I don't accept is a factless editorial with no way to check.

I tend to give more credence to those that lived in Vermont and not those that live in Florida.

As for warts, they're all frogs looking to be Princes.

Thanks for your insight.

Thanks for not jumping on me over this. By the way, I still live in Vermont. I can't imagine living anywhere else.

goodnight folks.

MOst of the articles I have posted about Dena as Governor come from the Rutland Herald, The Times Argus, and the Burlington Free Press, all rather respectable papers, and well known to be without politicla slant, in the best tradition of New England Journalism


The problem is that Deans supporters are unable to come up with reasonable anwers to those questions in Denas record which place him closer to John Ashcroft, than to Paul Wellstone. Much of Deans record as governor, and most of his re-elections was largely dependent on Republican support, not Democratic support. His record regarding legislation is largely one of complete support of ther Republican legislative agenda, and virtually complete oppostition, or threats to veto Democratic sponsired legislation. His opposition to methadone clinics basedon the effects on properties in the neighborhoods these clinics would be based in is almost cruel, and he completly forbid opiate maintanance in prosons, after the director of prosons establishe such a program after a court decision requiring it.


Governor Nixes Methadone Plan for Vermont Prisons
Thursday, December 20, 2001

Vermont Governor Howard Dean has again proven himself to be a formidable obstacle to methadone maintenance therapy in Vermont. In May 2000, the state of Vermont finally joined 44 other states and passed a law allowing for methadone maintenance, despite the opposition from the Governor. Gov. Dean eventually reached a compromise with the Legislature by stipulating that methadone be distributed in a controlled environment and not for take-home use. Although a methadone clinic has yet to open in Vermont -- the first is scheduled to open in January 2002 in Burlington - the Vermont Department of Corrections recently announced plans to allow certain inmates to receive methadone in jail. This summer the Department of Corrections argued against methadone in court, but later agreed to allow methadone distribution in jails. Since the Department of Corrections’ approval of prison-based methadone maintenance therapy, Gov. Dean intervened and put a stop to the program, which would have been limited to inmates already on methadone.
The recently thwarted Department of Corrections decision resulted from a lawsuit involving an inmate who was on methadone as a condition for his probation. Whether or not the Governor’s decision will spur future lawsuits remains to be seen. At the press conference announcing his opposition to methadone distribution in prison, Gov. Dean said he would like to see AIDS “put back on the front burner.” Hopefully the Governor's opposition to harm reduction does not extend to needle exchange. According to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 58% of AIDS cases among American women are linked to injection drug use or sex with partners who inject drugs. Overall, 36% of AIDS cases in the United States can be traced back to intravenous drug use. This easily preventable public health crisis is a direct result of zero tolerance policies that restrict access to clean syringes.

http://www.lindesmith.org/news/12_20_01vermont2.cfm

In order to establish a clear record of Deans actions as governor, I, along with a group of 20 othe researhcers are going through every piece of legislation that was offered during Deands tenure as governor, dividing them up by democratic sponsorship, republican sponsorship, and who the legislation favored, and comapring this with Deans position on all of the legislation. We are half way through the first year and it has rapidly become obvious that Dean has opposed democrats on all issues, and supported all republican legislation.

Dean ran Vermont as a virtual dictator, was incapable of working with the legislature to develop meaningful legislation threatened to veto what would likely have been the first meaniingful universal health legislation in the entire nations, because it stipulated control over the costs and insurance premiums. And so on


Deans action in trying to totally destroy all meaningful public defenders work in Vermont was obviois, and RObert Appel was hailed by his collegues as one of the best heads of public defense departments in the US in his ability to maintain prublic defense for the poor and indigent and mentally ill in spite of all Deans opposition and budget cuts. Dena was infuriated when Appel found alternative funding, and refused it, as it was Deans goal to create a Republican like criminal justice policy:

TO Dean it was better to send a few innocent people to jail if that gave you a better chance of getting more guilty people.

ANd it wouldnt do any harm if this made Dean look tough on crime, but it reminds me of a very old quote:

“There is no crueler tyranny than that which is perpetrated under the shield of law, and in the name of justice”

Charles-Louise de Secondat, Baron de Montesquieu 1742.

This is only scratching the surface of Deans attempts to subvert civil liberties. He escaped New Yrk to move to lily white, crime free Vermont, and all of Deans legislative ideas of governance were, and are based on NIMBY...Not in My Back Yard.

85% of people incarcerated in Vermont are there for first time drug and other non violent offenses.

Am I ever going to get that?

for your statistic about Vermont's prision population?

What Dean did to Appel was disgusting by refusing to reappoint him for finding monies to keep the public defeders' office running.

Cuts to public defenders is an egregious attack on civil liberties for those who cannot afford GOOD private lawyers.


To maintain the right to a fair trial, those who cannot afford lawyers need to have representation.

our young men and women off to die on foreign soil based on a freaking lie? Jeez. Talk about warped perspectives.

John Kerry is supporting this war (yeah yeah he didn't like the way Bush went around doing it, but he always goes on about how he supports this war, doesn't he?).

Nothing Dean has done can compare to John Kerry's support for this illegal war.

Even Wes Clark is saying that this war does not qualify as just under international law because there was no evidence of an imminent threat.

That is why Dean and Clark are my #1 and #2.

Clark is totally going to smash Kerry on the military issue and he's going to be in the position that Kerry could have been if he had a spine. Now if Kerry had done the right thing and opposed this war, he would be sitting pretty right now. But he didn't.

Isn't war and peace a much bigger deal than what you guys are hitting Dean with?

that still would have led to war. Kucinich was the only one who said the war was illegal. If Dean's stand was that the war was illegal then why didn't he join in Kucinich and other leaders with their legal efforts to stop the war?

Dean is very pro-Israel. All the hardcore pro-Israel lawmakers voted for the resolution. What makes anyone believe that Dean really wouldn't have voted the way AIPAC wanted? Heck...Dean is even for going into Iran, something Kerry negotiated against and it cost him his vote.

been posted and discussed at length. The guy is simply slime in a free society.

This is one of the issues where Dean sides with Republicans.

some Deanies claim that Dean advocates for BETTER representation for defendants. I wonder why they think that when his record in Vermont doesn't show it.

:kick:

:eyes:

a poster specifically stated that Dean ADVOCATES for better representation for defendants.

I'm doing as I always do. Countering the misperceptions. Would you rather that they continue to state his position inaccurately?

He's a conservative law and order type. He's proud of it. Why hide it?

Dean probably would have given more for criminal defense if Vermont had enough crime to warrant it. The other side got more funding for court diversion programs, rehabilitation and money to build a prison so we could bring home all the prisoner currently being housed in other states for lack of room. One jail had to be closed due to the building not being suitable and overcrowding has been a big problem for years. None of the towns wanted to host a new prison, so it was expensive and a place basically had to be "bought" to get it done. That accounts for MOST of those budget increases.

I'm guessing that IF Dean refused any grant money it was because there was unfair stipulations attached to it that he didn't feel were right. That's why he seriously considered not taking federal funding for education, because of mandates that would have forced the state to take a step backwards.

Money for the prosecution only includes the DA. Money for jails, outreach, halfway houses, drug treatment, etc...don't count.

The only possible explanation is that Dean hates our liberties.

What makes Dean different from Ashcroft? Neither one seems to care at all about the right to a defense.

Because Dean didn't pump more money into an area it wasn't needed he is suddenly against people getting a fair trial?

Why on earth would he waste money where it wasn't needed and risk leaving some kids without insurance?

I've already pointed out that Vermont spends a lot of money on rehabilitation and helping the prisoners we have. We have had to send prisoners to Virginia and Rhode Island due to lack of space. It is expensive to do that and it separates families. Good for Dean for recognizing the importance of normalized relations to community ties for prisoners. Good for Dean for providing good prison programs for rehabilitation.

Have you looked at Vermont's crime rate? Apparently not. We've got just about the lowest crime rate in the nation...so why don't you tell me why, exactly, we need to add needless pork to our budget and cut services elsewhere to set aside money to defend criminals we don't have?

Better yet, why don't you just admit that you don't know enough about my state and what goes on here to judge anything Dean did or didn't do?

I remember taking a police science class where we were trained in how to trick people into confessing - even when they were innocent. Miranda discussed used of rubber hoses. I remember one class with a number of officers, where one stood up and said that he would arrest people and then create the evidence. The DDA who was running the class, looked at the other police officers and said "Did you hear that?" The others looked like they felt it was a "so what?" Throwing out bad evidence because it is bad evidence is what this technicality issue is about. Why does Dean want to eliminate these technicalities that give innocent people a fair trial. Why doesn't he care about the innocent victims of his streamlined trials? This is one issue where every other candidate is better. The other candidates all understand that in America people are innocent until proven guilty. Dean thinks like a person who has no concept of the American justice system. He needs to get an education before he starts asking people who support the Constitution to support him.

"Why does Dean want to eliminate these technicalities that give innocent people a fair trial."

How about you find a quote where Dean says he wants to do this.

"Why doesn't he care about the innocent victims of his streamlined trials?"

Again, kindly post the link to where Dean says this.


"This is one issue where every other candidate is better."

You mean like Kerry, who fought to get our government to leave American Prisoners of War in Vietnam to fend for themselves? Touche'.

"The other candidates all understand that in America people are innocent until proven guilty."

That's why a whole lot of them signed onto the Patriot Act, allowing for God only knows how many muslims to be arrested, deported and not be given due process? Yep, they're really big on legal protections.

"Dean thinks like a person who has no concept of the American justice system."

On the contrary...Dean thinks like someone who knows you have to make tough calls with the money you are given to work with and that you don't spend what you don't have.

"He needs to get an education before he starts asking people who support the Constitution to support him."

In light of the post I'm responding to it would appear that detractors of Dean need to get an education before they claim anyone else needs to.
 

this is hardly news...it has been hashed and rehashed about how dean has managed to piss off just about everyone...he certainly does not play to his constituants..never has...his focus has always been the budget and that has meant that he has trimmed the budget of an awful lot of really worthy programs. he has squelched plans for some really worthy programs. trust me, when he is president, i promise you, he will not even try to please you or anyone else

interesting to note though that vermont is only 1 of 10 states not facing bancruptcy...hmmmm

After all, the ex-governor ex-doctor ex-stockbroker CLAIMS to represent the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party.

So, he's not what he says he is.

Or vote for the Patriot Act?
Or lobby to abandon American POWs?
Or vote for tax cuts?

You're absolutely right...I'm voting for someone who actually acts like a Democrat, Howard Dean!

Dean would have voted for the Patriot Act. His entire record in Vermont weighed heavily on the pro law enforcement side. He also brought up the curtailing of some civil rights THREE DAYS AFTER 9-11.

NONE of the Dem candidates voted for Bush's taxcuts. That's a lie that has been pushed because Deanies think they can get away with it since 12 Dems did vote for it, and they count on the audiences' perception.

To say that Kerry lobbied "to abandon American POWs" is slander generated by people who have NO good intentions for this country. Segretti-Atwater-Rove planted anti-Kerry stories like this have been promoted for over 30 years. HO- fucking- HUM.

If you Kerry folks don't want Kerry to be criticized and have people point out things you'd rather have voters forget then I'd strongly suggest that they quit posting misleading crap about Dean. I live in Vermont and so far just about everything I've read posted about Dean by his detractors here have been complete and utter bullshit.

At least people who criticize Kerry have a verifiable reason to do so. He's voted in favor of Bush too much. He hasn't stood up and fought and hasn't proven himself to be a leader to promote Democratic values. He's laid down and let Bush Co. walk all over him. The criticisms of Dean has been desperate grasping at straws by the supporters of other candidates whose campaigns are in trouble. It's pathetic.

I love NH almost as much as I love VT...especially when it comes to shopping. ;)

10 miles below the canadien border...northwest

I've been to the north in both states. Newport, VT is beautiful, and Dixville Notch is unlike anywhere I've ever seen. Breathtaking.

way west of newport...tiny village close to ny state

Been there before, too.

about 5 miles

I used to take the Vermonter up to Swanton once in awhile to visit a friend on weekends. We went mad with yard and junk sales. Nice area.

not for everyone...but it sure beats the city...i grew up here..but lived 6 years in nyc...i will take my small village over that anyday

I grew up in a very small town and that's the way to go. Everyone sort of looks out for each other and it's nice to recognize people you know from what they're driving. Of course, it's not so great if you're scandalous, because everyone knows your business...lol.

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Riddle me this, blm...

Did Kerry vote to let Bush go to war? Yes or no? Why yes, he did.
Did Kerry vote for the Patriot Act? Yes or no? Well, whaddya know, yes, he did.

If that's not voting in favor of Bush, I don't know what is.

Of course Dean is a centrist. We all know that and have always known it. Does he compromise? Of course he does, that's how things actually get done. There's nothing wrong with compromising as long as the compromises are good ones. Are you claiming that Kerry doesn't compromise? If that's the case, then what the hell are those shitty votes about? Those were crappy compromises, however.

I honestly don't know what your problem is. You act as if Dean has claimed to be some liberal bastion. That's a crock of dung. The lazy press claimed it and the only people who bought it were people too lazy to look for themselves.

The last few decades have NOTHING to do with today. No one cares what Kerry did 20 years ago. They do, however, care about what he's NOT doing today...giving people a reason to support and vote for him.

Besides, everyone knows people as liberal as Kerry don't get elected president. Centrists like Dean do get elected, though. Sorry the truth hurts so much, but those are the facts.

How am I smearing Kerry? I'm just criticizing what he has done. It's documented fact. It's not my fault you can't handle the truth.

And one more thing...that last line sounds an awful lot like a threat. I suspect that's against the rules.

with Bush over the Iraq resolution. It cost KLerry his vote to help force Bush to not bypass the UN, to let weapons inspectors in first, to present evidence to the UN (causing Bush to overreach and inflate the presentation, and to not allow him to further invade Syria and Iran.

If Kerry and others refused to negotiate at all with Bush he truly would have had a blank check and those lawmakers would have been derelict of duty. Only those ignorant of how the process of government works will blame any Dem for negotiating for the better deal.

You KNOW Dean brought up the curtailing of civil rights THREE DAYS after 9-11. Mr. law and order Governor had no real problems with the Patriot Act BEFORE he lurched left rhetorically and started collecting liberal antiwar $$$$.

Kerry fought the GOP FOR 30 years, not just 20 years ago. You care not for accuracy. You obviously have NO idea about Kerry's record over the last 30 years. And more...you aren't the least interested in the truth of that record.

Threat? Hahahah. We're talking politics, here. The idea of a threat is just another inaccurate portrayal from you.. Are you THAT thinskinned?

he lurched left rhetorically and started collecting liberal antiwar $$$$.

Yupp, that's a lucrative racket! I don't get it why more people aren't eager to rake in the big bucks. :-)

The media promoted Dean as a liberal antiwar candidate when he was NEITHER. He was a lifelong centrist and he supported the Biden-Lugar version of the Iraq War Resolution which wasn't that different than the one voted on.

The media IGNORED Kucinich speaking in front of millions at antiwar rallies, and IGNORED his legal efforts to end the war. Dean chose NOT to speak at the rallies and did NOT join in legal efforts to end the war. BUT...the press touted HIM as the "staunch antiwar candidate" instead of Kucinich.

he flushed our bill or rights down the toilet..had no problem with that...if you don't think that will be a huge fight to get them back..regardless of who gets in, you are sadly mistaken...and he knowingly voted to upset the balance of power so carefully placed by our founding fathers by voting to give bush carte blanche on the decistion to INVADE....what is it about this that you are not understanding?

Bush have a REAL blank check that would have him in Iraq, Iran and Syria TODAY?

That Bush NOT have to present evidence to the UN? Isn't that how Bush lost much of his credibility?

For any Senator to refuse to negotiate for a better bill...well...they SHOULD be impeached.

You seem to think there was a choice. Get real. Bush had the votes to go in HIS way. Dem negotiators PREVENTED that.

vote to support giving away your power...or not...can't get much clearer than that...kerry voted away his power..and in my opinion had no right to do that..coward's way out...he had no right to do that...president..i don't think so

Or...you WANTED Bush to have a REAL blank check.

Well that explains it!

It's okay for Kerry to compromise when it results in the deaths of Americans but it's NOT okay for Dean to THINK about compromising when the results could be preventing the deaths of Americans?

I can't help but wonder where the logic is in your argument.

when it was a staple for his career for 11 years. What he did was act outraged about it when it was putting $$$$$ in his campaign.

with all the "disingenous" complaining you do...

I gotta point out that your argument holds no weight, per usual. Dean didn't start getting much money until quite recently...and unless you think people are complete idiots I'd imagine they would look at Dean's record before contributing to him.

Maybe, just maybe you should stop going on the assumption that people support Dean because they are under the false assumption that he's a liberal. His supporters KNOW he's not. You're beating the hell of a long since dead horse.

Take your candidate's advice and just "Get over it". (and you wonder why he's not getting the money and support Gore did...it's not Dean's fault, it's Kerry's.)

Dean's dollars and support came AFTER the media singled him out as the liberal antiwar candidate. Before that he was struggling along as a centrist.

You need only look at the archives here from January thru April to see how many believed him to be staunchly antiwar and a liberal.

Do you HAVE a good answer why the media labeled him as THE liberal antiwar candidate when he was neither? Do you HAVE a good answer why they ignored Kucinich speaking at antiwar rallies, and spearheading legal efforts to end the war, and instead gave all the focus to Dean?

Kerry saw the removal of Hussein from Iraq as a good thing, thus he voted to support the war in Iraq. Senator Kerry has stuck to his guns on the matter, he believes Iraq is better off without an oppressive, dictatorial regime. I completely agree with him on this point. I do believe we should not have removed Hussein with military force, and especially without international support, just so you know. Senator Kerry voted for the side of the matter which he agreed with. His part, as Senator, is to act in the best interests of the people, and he voted along lines that he felt were in the peoples best interests. It is not the role of a Senator to vote against the policies of the President simply because you dislike the President, Administration, and their policies. Anyone who votes in such a manner ought not to be in office. Kerry has criticized the handling of post-war Iraq vehemently, because he felt justice was not being served. He feels the Iraqi people deserve better than what they have recieved, and rightly so. Were John Kerry president now, instead of President Bush, would we have gone to war with Iraq? I think we can all definitely say no, we would not have. How then does this affect his viability as a presidential candidate? Dean dosn't claim to be a liberal bastion? What, then, did he mean by the "democratic wing of the democratic party?" Also, if what happened 20 years ago has no bearing on the present, then i suppose what happened last year dosn't either. The fact is that the experiances and lessons learned over the course of a career such as the one John Kerry has lead provide a vast amount of wisdom, knowledge, and expertise. Kerry has spent 18 years on the Senate Foreign Relations Comittee, he, as i'm sure we all know well by now, fought with great valor and distinction in Vietnam, he's helped pave the way for Gay rights, i could go on listing things but i'll spare you, i'm sure you've already seen them. The point is this. I don't think Dean is as terrible as he's been painted, nor is Kerry. I do think the plain fact of the matter is that Howard Dean was Governor of a small, liberal state. It is a completely different animal than the United States as a whole. I have serious reservations as to Dean's ability to effectively govern the US. I believe Kerry has the experiance nessicary to fill a post such as the Presidency, and I believe he has the capability to take on the President in a general election.

Thats all, thanks for taking the time to read that giant thing, you have my sympathy.

is that the office of governor is all about compromise....so he was very tough with the budget...ask any of our poor up here how greatful they are to be able to bring there children to a dr. and be assured that they will be covered....can't do it all..for sure...but talk to someone that has lived here throughout his entire tenure and you will get a clearer picture of his caring for the poor and disenfranchised...do some more research

Reading all the posts today, obviously non-orchestrated in any way, that say the same thing, makes me want more people to read this interesting topic.

Once voters find out that he has not been helping accused criminals, people will surely vote for Bush.

Once Democrats learn of Deans stance and actions, same as Bush's, they are likely to begin deserting him...

so many of them feel we are too hard on accused criminals?

September 14, 2001

By DAVID GRAM The Associated Press

MONTPELIER — Gov. Howard Dean's call for a “re-evaluation” of some of America's civil liberties following this week's terrorist attacks was criticised Thursday by a Vermont Law School professor.

“Good God,” Vermont Law School Professor Michael Mello said when read the remarks Dean made at a Wednesday news conference. “It's terribly irresponsible for the leader of our state to be saying stuff like that right now.”

Benson Scotch, the head of the Vermont chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union, said it was simply too soon after the attacks to engage in the sort of debates Dean called for.

Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street


http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/33681.html

seemed to agree with Dean, here the day after 9/11. And they didn't even have the "debates"!

Please don't go there - your candidate is on rather shaky ground on this one.

That the "Anti Patriot Act Doctor"

Seemed intent on creating his own. And statistics of innocent people being jailed due to lack of proper legal assitance is SO high that Doctor Dean has more than likely put more innocent AMERICAN CITIZENS in jail than the Patriot Act, which is limited to non U.S. Citizens.

More indication of the good Doctors "Vermont Maple Syrup and Waffles" Platform