kerry announcing from aircraft carrier?

Sorry if this is a dupe, but I just heard Tucker mention this on today's Crossfire. To be honest, even though Kerry is my second choice behind Dean, I think this is a pretty cheap exploitation of the US military. First, it's going to look like he copied Bush (that is, to mainstreamers out there). Second, if (when) Clark does annouce, Kerry's just shot himself in the foot by essentially proclaiming himself via his military background as the military candidate. Now, whether or not Wesley Clark can be effective on the campaign trail is yet to be seen, but the differences in their military service will be abundantly clear.

And people wonder why Dean is getting all this grassroots support.

PS, Garafalo looks HOT on Crossfire today.

Edit:typo

They have both served their country very honorably. Kerry is a genuine, bona fide, war hero and no one can ever take that away from him, nor should they try. I mean, Jesus the guy was wounded three times and had a reputation for rescuing his buddies in one of the most horrible, dehumanizing conflicts of our time.

Dean is my first choice for the nomination, but what the hell kind of characterization is that of Kerry?

Although I also agree with dean4america that Kerry's announcement on the deck of an aircraft carrier is "going to look like he copied Bush". But, now that I think about it, it doesn't matter that some folks will think and say that. It will get folks to think about Bush's "Mission Accomplished" speech on another aircraft carrier and the soldiers who are *still* dying in the Iraq occupation.

I think that Gen. Clark will pull votes away from Sen. Kerry whether or not he emphasises his extremely great military background. But, I don't think that Sen. Kerry should back off from telling folks about his honorable time in the military because of this.

He'll get a lot of play out of his line about Little Boot's flying in with a "borrowed suit" - one of my favorite digs

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm just loving the whipping that ALL the Dem candidates are dishing out

warms my heart

Heheh. Let them draw MORE attention to it. By 2004 everyone will know about AWOLBUSH.

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check it out here http://www.johnkerry.com/news/clips/news_2003_0822.html

Bush was AWOL from the Air National Guard. The objection was that cowardly Bush had no right to pretend to be something he was not. The one thing Kerry has going for himself is that he is a war hero who turned anti-war. By the way, I'm not voting for Kerry but he is more of a right than any of the other candidates to do this.

But only if he says something along the lines of "we war veterans" that distinguishes him from AWOL.

I welcome anything Kerry does that points the arrow towards the Boy King's AWOL during Vietnam.

Go Kerry!

I thought he abandoned that plan and decided to go to South Carolina instead for his announcement.

If it is true, I think it is dumb, because it will be reminiscent of what Bush did in May. However, unlike the president, Kerry has earned the right to use an aircraft carrier for his announcement if he wants.

Kind of like he did during the Vietnam War.

Seriously, though, why on Earth would this be a bad idea?

That being said, it depends on what Kerry says at the event. It might fly if he makes a mockery of Shrub's AC photo-op but it'll all depend on how the media portrays it. I just see too many possible downsides and only one upside.

Upside

Kerry ridicules Shrub's photo-op and "service." Thereby diminishing the Chimp-in-Chief and elevating himself in comparison. This requires that the media play the proper sound bites and applies the proper spin. Highly unlikely.

Downsides

He is portrayed as "Bush-lite." It is spun as a cheap stunt (see original). It lends tacit support for the ongoing militarization of America. It lends tacit support to the war in Iraq. It will be spun as Kerry trying to be like the chimp. He will appear as "Bush-lite."

I think it would take a speech of the highest order to overcome the many obstacles that will be in place, i.e., media spin, RW spin, reduction to soundbites, etc... Maybe he can pull it off. I wish him luck.

even half-ass competent advisor he'd be waaaay out front in this campaign. The Kerry campaign stragedy seems to have been developed in 2000 and is simply ignoring the fact that Dean has COMPLETELY changed the political landscape. Kerry's campaign seems to be running as if Howard never entered the race. Amazing. Simply amazing.

Dean '04...

Which one is it?

I guess the only way he could copy Dean here is if he went skiing in Colorado.

the inevitable bad results.

Dean '04

Dean '04

" Dean has COMPLETELY changed the political landscape "

That's the bill of goods he's selling, only he's really another pol just like the rest of 'em. He has managed to convince a herd of sheeple that he and he alone has the answers, that he and he alone speaks the truth, and that any criticism of Dean is an evil attack.

History will show whether Dean really is some sort of political messiah or just a slick politician ... if you want to know now, examine his record in Vermont and compare it to his rhetoric on the Presidential campaign trail.

Dean '04...A true American patriot.

.

Most of his supporters know nothing about his Vermont record - they just think he is the 'anti-war' candidate. They don't yet know just how easily Dean forsakes his supposed ideals in the name of 'pragmatism' -- to use the kindest term I can think of.

*****




(why bother?)

Why be concerned about what our elected officials do once they are in office? Why look at whether a politician's actions match their rhetoric? Why even have debates, or a forum discussing politics? Why read the news? Why examine independent sources to see if they confirm what a candidate is saying about him/herself? Why not just support a candidate because it 'feels good' or because it seems like the 'hip' thing to do? Is that the point of your post?

.

Do you say that he has changed the political landscape for using the internet to garner grassroots support?

We should be bashing Bush for this stunt, not repeating it.

Kerry has got to be the most politically tone deaf candidate ever. To make it even worse, with his antics, he makes it impossible for any of the other candidates to use Bush's stunt against Bush. If they did then the "liberal" media would have a field day screaming about the hypocrisy of the Democrats.

that's the point. it is using it against bush, and will continue using it against bush. kerry brings it up in almost every speech and uses it against the shithead.

Maybe I'm misreading, but it sounds like you're saying "Kerry shouldn't do this" in one sentence and then "Kerry's preventing other candidates from doing this" -- so which is it?

I say, go for it Kerry. Good opportunity to bring up REAL military credentials.

This guy has gotta get some of his own ideas instead of always reacting to everyone else. You can't lead a nation if you're a follower. Smart, decent guy, but slow on the draw and a weak campaigner.

Doctor's notes aren't cheap.

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http://www.awolbush.com/

PS - Ashcroft got 7(!) deferments.

Rush Limbaugh got a 1-Y for an anal cyst.

"My candidate must have killed people in order to get my vote."---DrFunkenstein

response? :puke:

I was trying to channel being 3 years-old. Apparently too young for you. How about 6 years-old?

"blather about other DU posters I have a grudge against" - RUMMYisFROSTED

I see you're already familiar with the pattern of argumentation around these parts.

"I speak of that which I know nothing about."---IIgnoreNobody.

"anyone who disagrees with me is not worth treating with respect" - RUMMYisFROSTED

"blather about other DU posters I have a grudge against" - RUMMYisFROSTED

This was how you entered the fray. When I said "when you've been around a little longer" I meant that you don't understand the dynamic betweeen me and DrFunkenstein. We've been at this playful "war" for weeks. I'd be shocked if DrF took anything I said outside of its intended spirit. We're not enemies. I don't think DrF is a jerk. I assume that it works both ways. Now you, not understanding this, jump in and attack me without understanding the various elements and context of the debate. Then I get:

"anyone who disagrees with me is not worth treating with respect" - RUMMYisFROSTED

Was I disrespecting you? No. I wasn't even talking to you.

Was I disrespecting DrF? Hmmm, maybe that could best be answered by DrF. My guess is no. Maybe he'll/she'll chime in.

All I'm suggesting is that you weren't being as perspicacious as you could have been. Sorry if I offended you.

How many Dean supporters would say that outside of the IWR, Kerry has the most far-sighted foreign policy among the candidates?

Odd choice for single-issue voting, considering Dean held the same exact position.

Did I mention Israel? Or how about gun control? Or public financing campaigns?

But what Dean is wrong on is outweighed by what he is not right on. He just doesn't have the record of supporting progressive issues like Kerry does. Just because he is not against them doesn't make up for that.

Dean's got a fierce style, which is commendable (when it is used positively), but on the issues he is still a lightweight.

also, how about the sanctions on iraq ? and the almost daily bombings ? was that ok ? why didn't we protest that ? the war against iraq had been going on for years.

Dean made his own way and has lived a pretty simple live for many years. He doesn't live in some huge estate or own lots of cars, private planes and live high on the hog. His kids always went to public school, he drives a beat up old vehicle and lives in a normal middle class house. He's the "guy next door" candidate.

And since when is being turned away by an army doctor the same as dodging the draft? If he wanted to dodge he could have easily had his father make a few calls and not even have to show up at all. And as for skiing, a couple of ski runs down a hill is a far cry from running with a heavy survival pack on your back for miles and miles. Dean's medical problem would have made him a liability and threat to the other soldiers. Had I been serving I would not want to have to stop to carry someone who was unable to run and put myself in danger...but I would still do it because that's what soldiers do. On another note...there's a boy in the house down the street that has a metal rod in his arm from agressive rollerblading. The doctors have told him NOT to rollerblade until it's healed or it could cause permanent damage. He's young and foolish and I just saw him go by...on rollerblades. He's still wearing a cast. Do you follow me here? This entire argument is inane.

In college I knew lots of trustfund hippies, the kind that dressed dingy but could afford to follow Phish around the country. They loved to drive beat up VWs, even though they could afford BMWs.

Second, Dean's 1-Y required an examination they do not perform. There is a definite possibility - but no hard evidence - that Dean brought in a doctor's slip excusing him from gym class in Vietnam.

PS - Dean played football with his "injury," which is kind of like aggressive rollerblading.

I don't blame Dean. Rush got away with a 1-Y from a doctor's note, and I say, "Good for him."

You following this, IIgnoreNobody?

He lives like any other middle to upper middle class Vermonter. What about the other candidates? Does Kerry live in a 3 or 4 bedroom house in the same neighborhood of the "common folk"?

He had a physical by an army doctor. Dean found out about the unfused vertabrae when he was 14, I think it was. I don't doubt that there were questions about such things that Dean answered and that the doctor looked at.

Football doesn't require long sustained running during live gun fire. There is a huge, huge difference. Dean showed up for the physical and was turned away. If his intention was to dodge, he could have easily done so without even showing up.

Personally, I'd much rather have a non-military candidate than one who changes which side of the war fence he's on more than he changes his underwear...but that's just me, I guess.

And again...young people can often be found doing things they have been advised not to do. To argue this whole thing is inane. No one cares. Vietnam was a long ass time ago. Let's get back to what's going on now and we might actually fix some things, ya know?

"He had a physical by an army doctor. Dean found out about the unfused vertabrae when he was 14, I think it was. I don't doubt that there were questions about such things that Dean answered and that the doctor looked at."

Link please?

"Football doesn't require long sustained running during live gun fire. There is a huge, huge difference. Dean showed up for the physical and was turned away. If his intention was to dodge, he could have easily done so without even showing up."

If your football team is any good you have to actually sustain running. Secondly, the military is a big place. There are jobs you can do without jogging around in circles. Kennedy had tremendous back problems, and he did exactly what Kerry did in the Navy. And if Dean opposed the war, he should have resisted. Instead, he went skiing.

"No one cares. Vietnam was a long ass time ago. Let's get back to what's going on now and we might actually fix some things, ya know?"

Actually, most Dean supporters concede that Kerry has the better plan for the future, but was compromised by his IWR vote. Rummy is one of the few who actually disagreed with the need for disarmament. Most others say Kerry was right, but voted wrong. And Kerry's foreign policy is smarter, has greater depth, and is more far-sighted than any candidate in the race.

and went to Viet Nam.

Note: Before you read this, understand that Bush had his flying privileges suspended for failing to take a drug test. That is still in effect as far as I know. Also, can this Caddell guy fall over himself a little more?

http://www.oreilly-sucks.com/transcripts/hardball.htm

Matthews: Ann Coulter, you’re the first to speak tonight on the buzz. The president’s performance tonight, redolent of the best of Reagan-what do you think?

ANN COULTER, AUTHOR, “TREASON”: It’s stunning. It’s amazing. I think it’s huge. I mean, he’s landing on a boat at 150 miles per hour. It’s tremendous. It’s hard to imagine any Democrat being able to do that. And it doesn’t matter if Democrats try to ridicule it. It’s stunning, and it speaks for itself.

MATTHEWS: Pad Caddell, the president’s performance tonight on television, his arrival on ship?

PAT CADDELL, FORMER DEMOCRATIC POLLSTER: Well, first of all, Chris, the-I think that-you know, I was-when I first heard about it, I was kind of annoyed. It sounded like the kind of PR stunt that Bill Clinton would pull. But and then I saw it. And you know, there’s a real - ” there’s a real affection between him and the troops. It’s-you know, when you see Bill Clinton with troops, it used to be like watching people going to the dentist...

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: The president there-look at this guy! We’re watching him. He looks like he flew the plane. He only flew it as a passenger, but he’s flown...

CADDELL: He looks like a fighter pilot.

MATTHEWS: He looks for real. What is about it the commander-in-chief role, the hat that he does wear, that makes him-I mean, he seems like-he didn’t fight in a war, but he looks like he does.

CADDELL: Yes. It’s a-I don’t know. You know, it’s an internal thing. I don’t know if you can put it into words. It’s a jawn (ph). It’s a-as I said, it’s a relation. You can see it with him and the troops, the ease with which he talks to them. I was amazed by that, frankly, because as I said, I was originally appalled, particularly when I heard he was going in an F-18. But-on there-but the-but you know, that was...

MATTHEWS: Look at this guy!

MATTHEWS: You know, Ann...

CADDELL: ... you know, they-it’s a quality. It’s an innate quality. It’s a real quality.

MATTHEWS: I know. I think you’re right. You know, Ann Coulter...

CADDELL: It’s not something (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

MATTHEWS: Ann Coulter, you know, some people have that leadership presence, that aura. Colin Powell has it. You may think him too liberal, but he’s got it. Dan Quayle, whatever his mental powers, he doesn’t have it. Some people just don’t have it. This guy’s father, George W. Bush- George Herbert Bush, was shot down by the Japanese at least once...

CADDELL: A war hero!

MATTHEWS: ... maybe twice...

CADDELL: A war hero!

MATTHEWS: ... and yet he didn’t seem to have it, Pat.

MATTHEWS: He didn’t seem to have that.

MATTHEWS: Ann, enter!

CADDELL: ... much more patrician.

MATTHEWS: Ann.

COULTER: Yes. No. That’s true. And though I have to say, in the current President Bush’s defense, he was a pilot. I mean, it wasn’t like the typical avoiding...the military service by serving in the National Guard. He was a pilot in the National Guard. He was training to be a pilot. It’s a dangerous National Guard duty. If the Vietnam war had continued, he would have gone to the Vietnam war as a pilot, so-I mean, he is a pilot, though he was not-he did not serve in wartime.

MATTHEWS: Is this a legitimate use of taxpayers’ money, to fly the president to the USS Abraham Lincoln tonight for this victory lap, basically?

COULTER: Oh, sure. With all the stupid things the government spends money on, this is pretty minor.

MATTHEWS: Pat, is this a legitimate use of the presidential office...

CADDELL: Well, you know, let’s face it, it’s kind of a-it’s a PR ploy, too. Let’s not kid ourselves. It’s a political-you know, it’s political picture shot. And you know, I-you know, I don’t think it’s a question of money. I think sometimes I think it’s a question of taste. But as I said, he pulled it off.

MATTHEWS: OK, let me run through the names, Ann. Lieberman-can you see him in this picture? Ann?

COULTER: Oh, no!

MATTHEWS: Can you see John Kerry do it?

COULTER: I can think of very few Republicans I could even see doing it. But no, not even Kerry.

That cost him big time. If Kerry does this it will look like he is copying Bush.

Mike

kerry was in the military and served in vietnam. last i heard, bush went awol from a ng unit that wasn't even going to vietnam.

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Suspended from flying August 1972.


"Gov. George W. Bush's refusal to give a yes or no answer when asked if he had used cocaine had been old news since his first campaign for governor of Texas in 1994. Then, he rebuffed the question with the words: "What I did as a kid? I don't think it's relevant."

John F. Stacks, an executive editor of Time magazine, framed the question differently in an essay in this week's issue of the magazine. "It's not hard to comprehend a national disinclination, post-Monica, to paw over the dark moments of yet another politician's life. The problem is that using cocaine, unlike having a bit of sport with the ladies, is illegal, and the country has decided to dole out harsh prison sentences to many people caught with the drug."

http://www.nytimes.com/library/politics/camp/082299wh-gop-bush.html

Kerry laid out his thinking on why Bush's drug use, if substantiated, is indeed an important issue for voters to consider:

"The issue about George Bush is not the fact that he may have used it, said Kerry. "The issue about George Bush is, how can you, if you have (used cocaine), have a position that is so at odds in terms of being a governor where you send a lot of other people who may have done the same thing you do to jail. That's the issue. It's not a question of whether he used it or when he used it, it's a question of what his policy is today and whether that's hypocritical and dangerous."

http://www.stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/123/gorequestions.shtml

Senator Kerry actually served his country on his own accord (He Volunteered) for military service unlike Bush who was a Draft Dodger!!! He is only using the Aircraft Carrier at the Naval Museum! He isn't using our men and women in uniform for his own political purposes!!!! So LAY OFF HIM!!!!

I think that Kerry ought to do a lot of grandstanding in this ares. This thread was posted by the Dean people. Dean is the one who would look presumptuous doing this.

He was inviting me to his "announcement" at Fanuial(spelling?) Hall in Boston on Sept. 3rd. He said if I wanted to go on the bus from NH they would have a front section set up for us, so it's got to be on land.

I have another commitment that day. But it is fun to get invited to all of this stuff.