A Progressive Case for Dean? Not Yet, Kucinich Is Still Our Man

To Dean or not to Dean: that is the question.

Should progressives be supporting Howard Dean? In a recent article on Common Dreams News Center, Nico Pitney argues that they should. Pitney's article has been reprinted on left-leaning and progressive websites. His case is being repeated on discussion boards and across the blogosphere. We probably all have progressive friends and acquaintances who share Pitney's view, if only tacitly. It is worth our time, therefore, to carefully consider Pitney's intelligent and energetic "progressive case for Dean."

I will argue that Pitney fails to make a persuasive case. Rather than Dean, progressives should be supporting Dennis Kucinich.

Let's take a look at Pitney's argument.

First, Pitney addresses the question of party allegiance. Greens who refuse to support a Democrat just because he or she is a Democrat rather than a Green are making a mistake. Greens should keep an open mind.

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

regarding point 1- the Greens -

Nader Urging Democrats to Back Kucinich in '04 Primaries

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0711-05.htm
http://www.house.gov/apps/list/hearing/oh10_kucinich/photo_020227_nader.html
http://www.gopusa.com/news/2003/july/0715_nader_kucinich.shtml
http://forums.alternet.org/guest/motet?show+-ugnyrK+-ilad+Currents+827

First, Kucinich represents at worst the third and probably the second most liberal district in Ohio. It was carried by Clinton not once but twice. It was carried by Mondale (yes that Mondale). It was carried by Tim Hagan as he lost by close to 20 points state wide. It is beyond absurd to characterize a district like that as "rife with Reagan Democrats". For the last 40 years this district has either been represented by 2 Dems and 1 Rep, 2 Dems, or 1 Dem except for four years. In 1992 Mary Rose Ockar, who had been indicted and wrote over 500 'bad' checks on the House Bank lost to Martin Hoke in a fairly close race. In 1994 Hoke won again running against the Treasurer of Cuyahoga County who had literally singlehandedly bankrupted the county (derivative scandal).

Second, Dean only refused the state funds when it was clear he would be out spent by something like 10 to 1 if he did. He had signed a law giving gays full marriage rights via civil unions. I know you don't care about that but frankly I do. And if he wanted to take money to save his ass and thus my rights then all the more power to him. You can rest assured that the Christian Right spent money so why the hell no gay money? Unless, and until real public financing if both in place and upheld then we need to fight money with money. And good for Dean to say so.

you need to cut your post to between 3 and 5 paragraphs and supply a link. Under DU rules that is the way copywritten material is handled.

Check out his great ratings from many liberal groups. Just bringing this up because this article mistakenly says that Dean is just as, if not more, liberal than Kerry, and Gephardt.

"We thought he was great. Then we did the research. Now we understand Dennis Kucinich is not an acceptable choice for President."

See why here: http://dennisthemenace.blogspot.com/2003_07_01_dennisthemenace_archive.html#105958945157225661

All of this smearing of Dean by DK supporters is to be expected, as DK himself has shifted the focus of attack to Dean. But those in glass houses...

on Kucinich bashing Dean you mean the social security thing give me more examples. Ive been told by a Dean supporter that Dennis actually went over to the Dean table and wished them good luck. BTW a lot of Dean supporters dont hate Kucinich the way that site does, so I dont get it, and I checked out vote smart it seems hes gotten good reviews from the liberal groups so that arguement is absurd. I am sorry but that site is bashing. Also if he is so unprogressive why is the head of the progressive cancus, he is head for a reason. He hasnt ridiculed Dean, hes showed his frustration on Dean's views let the be past or present on social security.

Failing to note that he would reappropriate the funds to CIVIL DEFENSE and National Security, first responders, port inspections, etc.

As a Dean supporter, I have a great deal of respect for Dennis, and have lamented the fact that his supporters here have put a target on Dean's back lately. Our two camps used to have a great deal of MUTUAL respect. But, I guess that's what happens when one elevates himself to the "top-tier."

This is the first anti-Kucinich site or article that I have ever posted here. Guess this post was the proverbial straw...

Dean supporters meticulously research and refute the claims being made in the Kucinich vs Dean emails and opinion pieces being posted here (repeatedly). Why don't you give it a shot with the facts posed by the source I linked in my original post? They raise some concerns and I'd like to know if they're true.

on that family research council
even Bernie Sanders got a high rating from them. look I am sorry if I am frustrated about this but he cant be too conservative and hes not head of the progressive cancus for a reason and some of the stuff is out right bashing, giving him hell for liking kielbasa although hes a vegan who cares, that is silly as the people who call Dean a republican and you and I both know that. There are concerns to me about Dean at one time supporting raising the social security age yet he remains high on my list and I try hard not to bash him.
Ive looked at project vote smart and Dennis's record there many times and it seems awfully liberal to me or maybe I am a dumbass but I cant see him as too conservative. If thats the truth then why is said to be unelectable because hes too liberal and Ive heard people say that they cant have it both worlds. He has had good ratings by liberal groups too even before he changed on abortion, liberal groups gave him 80's and 90's and with the exception of that one group he never received above 50% from a conservative group. Kucinich hasnt bashed Dean much at all really and honestly he cant be perfect on all issues but he is near it on most.

Yes, I've noticed that.

The purpose of my post was a roundabout call for fairness - I guess in a heavy handed way.

Just because DK or IndyMedia or Bob Harris says something about Dean on the issues, it does not necessarily mean they are not skewing it a bit to serve their own purpose.

I'd just like DK supporters to do a little research on Dean before proclaiming he's a right-winger based on these missives which they treat as Gospel.

I guess that's why I usually stick to posting topics about Dean news and articles, and then spend the rest of my time here defending him against half-truths or complete misrepresentations.

No ill will toward DK was intended, just a little frustrated...

We dont think him to be a right winger actually, we will tell you our concerns, I think most of us were original for Dean, but we are big economic liberals you see and Dean good guy he is isnt that, of course thats ok but I want fairness too really. Look dajabar I dont think Dean is a right winger but hes not my kinda guy, that said if hes the nominee I wish him the best of luck in kicking Dubya's ass. We try to be fair you know, and I think Dennis and Howard are good guys. We are even more frustrated than you in reality; I know Dean cant help this but its like Kucinich is invisible and when the papers talk about anti war and stuff they never mention him just Dean and I realize Dean cant help publicity but can you see where I am coming from. Here's the big frustration thing, I hate being told my guy is unelectable by some of Dean's people when their guy was once in the shadows just like DK, please understand most of us dont mean harm but we want better than just a centrist we want change and we get change with Dean but with Kucinich we get the stuff I dream about. Thats just me John H Kleeb liberal democrat and idealist.

As I was typing my last response, I was thinking about Dean vs Kerry. It's an acceptable tactic, and I'd be a hypocrite to say otherwise. And while I think it's perfectly fine to raise issues about Dean, I just want to make sure they are accurate representations of his actual stances.

Just like blm and Dr. Funk among others, who (when not going after Dean as well) do an admirable job of trying to set the record straight (as they see it) on his IRW vote.

Doc Funk and blm are pretty good, I think blm is for Kucinich though a kerry defender. Most of the bashers you see are tombstoned remember celticwarrior that person was w-r-o-n-g and who can forget when that one guy bashed Kucinich and a friendly squad of Dean supporters helped us out thank you.

Throughout the Primary.

:toast:

To my knowledge the only issues the FRC give a damn about are homosexuality and abortion. Sanders is pro choice and pro gay to the best of my knowledge.

2000 On the votes that the Family Research Council considered to be the most important in 2000, Representative Sanders voted their preferred position 66 percent of the time.
http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=H4042103#Conservative

I guess I am out of touch with either Sanders or the FRC

yet I look at their reviews from the human rights campaign and they are solid. Its baffling I cant explain it either, see I told you we Kucinich supporters can and will use facts :) even if it is 2:15.
Cythina McKinney got a 33%.

even weirder is the fact this guy, republican senator James Inhofe got a goose egg. strange stuff isnt it, Kucinich has always got great marks from the civil rights groups, he wasnt great in the past with the womens groups but was pretty decent I guess. What I am trying to say, either vote smart is iffy or I dont see something

Maybe there are two FRC's. Unless I am just loosing it the FRC is that anti gay group run by the likes of Reed. Learn something new all the time I guess.

I found it under conservative groups so I dont think so maybe an error people can make mistakes, the project vote smart people.

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=BC032003#Civil+Rights
that same year Dennis got the 100 from the FRC he got a 100 from the Human Rights Campaign.

The information from your link dajabr, has been spun to the point of out & out lies about Dennis. Talk about bashing- this one is pretty nasty and really pretty far off base. If you feel the need to believe all this...I really hate to think what will happen when you find out who and what Dean really is.

Most of us DK supporters do not bash Dean. But I have found many Dean supporters show little respect & downright anger towards anyone who says anything that remotely puts Dean in a less than "savior" light. I have seen a very angry Dean supporter come after a DK supporter and literally get in her face about DK...as she was simply walking past her....geez, people - lighten the hell up! What are you so afraid of that you feel you have to defend this man to the point of confrontations???

You need to get real ...I will say this one time...Dean is not what you hope he is...he will disappoint & disillusion many of you....you might want to get used to the idea that he will unravel before your eyes.

...and please, if you feel the need to post links- at least make sure they are reasonably fair & somewhat honest. We are Dems here...if you have to bash every other candidate to get your man elected.... that is one sad thing....doesn't say much about your man, now does it?

Peace
DR

While I think that link is out of line it is no more out of line than the similar link it was based upon. In addition it is Kucinich supporters here who started the "Dean is a draft dodger crap". You are not pure as the driven snow either. As to the public attack you describe it would have to rise many levels to reach stupid and if he were working with me he would be asked never to return. It was reprehensible conduct.

but in reality I think we are decent, and many of us have Dean as a backup.

just like only a few Dean supporters are attacking Dennis. I actually live close to his district and most of my meet ups and other activities have taken place in his district and I haven't noticed any problems.

You are lucky to live near him, he is a pretty good guy and I think Dean is too but I do have other reasons than just issues for my support for Kucinich. The myth of the asshole Dean supporter I have seen, in reality I think I saw it most from a clark supporter, that vote clark guy, I tell you this being a person who opposed Kosovo I have more of a problem with Clark than Dean, plus Dean knows he is a democrat, and Clark wont tell us what he is. Its mostly Kucinich supporters like me who have their iffs on the General but I have seen some Dean supporters share it too.

In 92 he ran in the primary for my district and lost by only a few thousand votes to Eric Fingerhut. I worked for Fingerhut largly due to his terrific gay rights stands but met Kucinich and liked what I saw. To this day I regret that decision since Kucinich probably would have survived in 94 unlike Fingerhut.

He's tougher than a lot think, look it is a win win situation if either DK or Dean get the nod but what distinguishes me from Dean is economics, I am a big economic liberal and in primaries I will support people like that but I can support moderates. Fingerhut got beat down in the revolution huh that sucks.

Dean is my "stand-by" choice. Once it is clear that Kucinich is no longer in the race, I plan to switch my support to Dean.

And I believe there should be no acrimony between Kucinich and Dean supporters. I for one have not, and will not, engage in any "Dean bashing." I hope my fellow Kucinich supporters will do the same.

When was Dean accused of "draft dodging"? I'm not doubting you, but apparently I don't recall the subject or thread. As I understood it, Dean was in school during Viet Nam, and I certainly wouldn't call it "draft dodging" when a man is studying medicine!

I'd really appreciate it if you wouldn't generalize about Kucinich supporters. There are a few things I don't like about Dr. Dean on a personal level, but if I'm discussing him with his supporters I try very hard not to refer to those things. They aren't worthy criteria for judging him as a Presidential candidate, imo, and certainly not a foundation for debate. Let's face it, how can anyone argue with "He has a sleazy air about him." or "I don't like him."? Then you have to play 20 questions and the debate over what really matters gets lost.

In any case, I'm really sorry anyone made such a nasty accusation about Dr. Dean.

Except that it was a smear. An example that there's skewed info out there about everyone's candidate.

Search my posts and note that I've never once presumed to tell any DK supporters that DK "is not what you hope he is," or that he will, "disappoint & disillusion many of you."

But, thanks for jumping in and telling me what I should think and how I should feel about the candidate I support...

"and please, if you feel the need to post links- at least make sure they are reasonably fair & somewhat honest"

That, Desertrose, was the message I was trying to convey about Dean smears, and my reason for posting to this thread.

came through dajabr.....(I type slow...what can I say)

...realized after it posted that you were making a point.....I agree...too many smears on all of the candidates...why are we so defensive about our choices?
Possibly having chimp boy f-over the country for the past couple a years might be a factor....:shrug:

and no, guess you don't really need anyone telling you how to think & feel about your choice....it just feels so frustrating to have this dissension among us when all we really want to do is get that idiot out of the white house when he never should have gotten in in the first place...like we took a way wrong turn and instead of stopping for directions or turning around we just keep on going farther dwon the wrong road...like I know the world wasn't supposed to go this way....but I can't change it....

anyhow...I really shouldn't post late at night...too prone to hasty replies...and simply reacting...not the best thing...time for me to head off to bed...

so dajabr- honestly didn't start out to offend...again...reacting when I need to just slow down...will try to do from now on.... :)


Peace
DR

but in reality you werent and I gorgive. I am sorry about what genius is saying but I told you below where I think hes getting his conclusions from,

Like I said, I've always refrained from posting negatively about Dennis, and will continue to do so.

Just as long as he doesnt propose giving the wealthiest 1% a big tax cut, or a patriot act II or III, or wants to use the death penalty like how it was in Texas, and I know that aint gonna happen, it would be like having Clinton again which would be good but I wanna see Kucinich above all. Your subtlely is what started all of this, and if you look below you will see our class.

I defend people like you often too.

Late here too...

I don't think we've spoken before, but I want you to know that I've read more than a few of your posts, and I respect and admire you and your candidate. That's why I was kind of taken aback by your initial response. Thanks for clearing it up. :-)

Dennis and Dean evoke a tremendous amount of passion in their respective supporters. And, I think the Deanies can understand your frustration well. Dean could go back to being an underdog or out of the race in the blink of an eye. That's why I hope we all go back to being supportive of one another. There's an affinity for and among all the original "fringe" candidates that should also be reflected here in this forum.

Good night. See you tomorrow.

dajabr

Thanks for acknowledging something Ive been saying to y'all for a while about the past and all, some dont care, remember where you come from thats an important lesson in life, thanks for seeing our frustrations what I wouldnt give for Kucinich to get the attention Dean has got, its not his fault that the media doesnt mention DK and it is so frustration, it really bugs me for the record, anything can happen, you can be no where one minuite and somewhere the other thats life, I am ABB but pro Kucinich, and if he gets the nomination I will be happy, in fact I'd be happy for all of them especially the anti war ones, I dont mind Gephardt or Kerry either, and am ok with Edwards.

Dennis, Braun, Sharpton, Dean - you know how many times we've been told our guy/gal is unelectable? An abboration? A detriment to the party? I know you do.

And look, the stars have aligned a bit for Dean, but don't expect most of us old-time Deaniacs to forget where he started. They all owe a debt to each other for infusing a liberal/oppositionist slant to this primary. And whoever emerges the nominee, will be all the better for it.

Now, I absolutely believe that Dean is sincere, and not pandering on his "lefty" issues, but I'd fully expect him to be listening and learning from DK and the others - and vice versa. Just like I wish we were doing here more often.

is that two people can take the same data pool, use only the points that are relevant to the outcome they want, re-write the supported guy's data in glowing terms and the non-supported guy's data in inflammatory language, and come up with entirely different conclusions...

What the charts DON'T prove is why someone should vote for Dean over Kucinich or vice versa.

He's not for anyone who cares about their freedom.

This is what I'm talking about! Is Dean really against "freedom?"

Blanket statement + no link or source = bash

"Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped."
Elbert Hubbard (1856 - 1915)

I remember a thread does Kucinich annoy you too, and that was more wrong because it was an entire thread. I think he could be getting at that from that article about how Dean lowered money on the public defenders office.

But, I'm not sure they imply that Dean is against freedom as a concept.

Jumping in with a non-sequitor and not staying around to defend it (common MO unfortunately) does nothing to promote debate of the issue. It simply elicits more flames - which I guess is more satisfying to some.

Thats where I think genius is getting this from and frankly you are right it is nonsense, we are frustrated as hell you know at when Kucinich doesnt get mentioned or when he gets bashed, and I know you guys dont like it either.

When an issue has been brought up against Kucinich, with even just a tiny kernel of evidence to support it, I check it out. I'm perfectly willing to see my man's weaknesses as well as his strengths. How on Earth do I have any chance of helping him improve if I don't even look at where he needs to do so?! And honestly, I take that on as part of my responsibility if I back the guy. If I'm telling people I think he's the best choice, I'd better be able to make sure he really IS what I claim.

I submit ideas, thoughts, suggestions, you name it to the Kucinich staff all the time. Because it's part of my duty to him and to other voters. I don't run around beating up on Dean, although I have been pushed to respond to bashing of Kucinich by Dean supporters.

Can you back it up, because I can't, nor would I want to.

Sorry, genius, I know how aggravating it can be to listen to Kucinich get slammed, but how does it change anything for us to resort to the same tactics?

Dean is very conservative. Why would the progressives support him?

Like myself, because he actually made some progress in his state on issues like civil unions and health care...and figured out a way to get opposition to Bush's Iraq War on the national media radar.

Having said that, I was very happy to read the discussion on this thread.

I'm saddened by the continual accusations about how awful we Dean supporters are...shouting everyone down...and then when that is questioned...well, it happened several months ago. I wasn't reading the general forums several months ago, so I have no idea what is being talked about.

Here in my area...some of those leading the Dean and Kucinich camps know each other quite well and discuss tactics for gathering support and don't spend time attacking each other's candidates.

Basically, I see this:

Kucinich supporters have a point when they say many Dean supporters really believe Kucinich is the most correct, in their heart.

Dean supporters have a point when they say that Kucinich's campaign has not proven itself capable of competing on a national level.


My supporting Dean has absolutely nothing to do with me being anti-DK...but it does have a lot to do with serious questions I have about the operation of his campaign. I look forward to seeing Kucinich supporters and Dean supporters as being part of us for a long time to come.

nt

There are liberals and conservatives in the Democratic Party. Most Democratic officials want to throw parties and do absolutely nothing to change the world. Some Democrats, like Kucinich, want to change the world. These individuals are truly inspirational.

The Greens left our party because our party was stagnating and dying. The fact that they are coming back to support Kucinich is showing that he is resurrecting our party. I just hope the deadbeats don't stop the resurrection.

they are really. They help elect Republicans and set back the "progressive" agenda further. I see nothing "progressive" in being "regressive".

Kuchinich has some good ideas, but he can't win the general election against Bush.