Dull, But Still a Draw

...Dean had the subjects. He spoke against the war in Iraq, which once was his personal and thus immensely profitable stand and now is becoming crowded as the war turns into the early Vietnam. Dean also spoke about the job losses being the worst since Herbert Hoover. The deficit is monstrous, he pointed out. If these issues are around next fall, Bush can be beaten by any aluminum-siding salesman.

But he said this in language made of wood. He spoke without saying one phrase that would inspire. And the cheers of the crowd seemed forced. The crowd out there was young and as white as the candidate. I walked through them for some time and there was no electricity in the whole place.

When I mentioned to people with me that Dean's shirt sleeves were too contrived, they mentioned that I had liked Robert Kennedy, who campaigned in this same Bryant Park in rolled-up shirt sleeves.

"He was Catholic," I said.

Dean is about as WASP as you can get. He is out of East Hampton, the part of it where money comes out of the safe with a light coating of dust. His father was the head of Dean Witter stocks on Wall Street. He has membership in the Maidstone Club. Some Jewish people point out that they could never get in the Maidstone Club. I couldn't get in the joint, either. Do they write about that in these glorious stories about the Hamptons?

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/politics/ny-nybres283431588aug28,0,5735107.column?coll=ny-lipolitics-print


Jimmy Breslins opinion...still the best of the best.

Breslin's theory is kind of blown by the fact that Dean's wife and in-laws are jewish, don't you think?

Without any major evidence of minority participation, you are screwed.

Having spent a major portion of my life living in N.Y.C. and knowing Breslin, he is on the money. HE knows the heartbeat of the New York Public, and to be honest, if he cannot be inspored by Dean, then Dean has nothing real to offer.

Dean is certainly screwed. His campaign is withering away and dying.

Breslin forgot to mention all the Birkenstocks at the event, like the NYT did.

statements like this make you look? Maybe it's too late for you to gain (regain?) credibility on this board. I don't know. At this point you've become a running joke, and I actually don't like seeing that. It's getting so that people are reflexively bullying and mocking you.

Dean does have a problem with non-white, non-college student, non-middle and upper middle class voters. And Breslin does know New York (and NY Democratic politics) probably better than anyone who posts at DU.

When he passes away, the crowds will be more massive than at Victor Hugo's memorial.

There is no one who has been closer to reflecting the heart and soul of the Democratic party and particularly New York Democratic Politics than Breslin.

New York City is now almost nothing BUT minorities.

And this is exactly the kind of thing that Breslin tries to observe when he is observing the political scene.

If there was anything in Deans message that said ANYTHING to minorities, New York City is first and foremost, the place you would be able to see the reach and extent of that message.

One of the strongest segments of the Democratic Party lies in its appeal to minorities.

They are also the most liberal and non-centrist wing of the party. Any message that speaks of conservatism, and in particular, fiscal conservatism, will alienate that wing of the party.

http://www.johnkerry.com/meetup/meetup_photos.html

Give me a break.

Meetups are not the same thing as public speaking events.

Denas lack of each to minorities lies in the fact of his HEAVY internet campaign, and Dean himself indicated that this constitutef his largest problem in attracting minority votes when he spoke at the Rainbow/Push debates.

Sorry, Dean has made so many decision as governor that were diametrically opposed to the interests of minorities that he will have to publically completely reverse his platform in order to get minority support.

He will have to support the war in Iraq, which was hughly popular with the southern black communty who largely support military intervention as a political soution to international problems.
HE will have to explain away his record on cutting funds to public defenders, his opposition to drug treament clinics and treatment in prisons, his support of the dealth penalty, which is VERY unpopular among minorities.

Dean has a lot of very BAD baggage related to things political of greatest interest to minorities.

That certainly was the way Breslin attempted to portray it--as if it was an intentional effort not to be inclusive. It is early in the season yet and it takes time to get the message out to everyone other than internet activists.

Oh wait, Kerry managed to show up at the NAACP after being embarrased publicly by the head of the NAACP and the fact that Dean showed up.

Yeah, Kerry has great relations with minorities. Maybe that's why he disses their conventions and doesn't want to be seen with them during election time.

At least Dean is working to reach out to the minority groups. Andrea Pringle, Braun's former campaing manger, joined his team as deputy campaign manager a few weeks ago. It's a matter of time before minorities start showing up at Dean rallies.

Kerry was always attending. The question was which day.

Your spin is TRULY UGLY, and has no base in the reality of how Kerry has governed and legislated in many ways that were TRULY HELPFUL and RESPECTFUL to minorities.

He doesn't have to feverishly play catch up.

"The crowd out there was young and as white as the candidate."




"I walked through them for some time and there was no electricity in the whole place."

but they seem to be broken for me.

They showed up in preview. Guess you'll just have to go here:

http://photos.deanforamerica.com/gallery/20378

.

.

along with Richard Reeves, Ted Rall, and all those other bad reporters who just too stupid to get it.

-snip-
The Bush people say Dean is the candidate they want. And the southern Democrats, who have a tubby clerk, Al Fromm, speaking for them, say that Dean is this year's McGovern. They had Sen. Evan Bayh of Indiana say that Dean would be suicide. Bayh wouldn't be working for the post office if his father, Birch Bayh, hadn't been here before him.

If this is the early lineup against Dean, then he gets early support.
-snip-
No politician in the land with a working larynx can draw this many to stand and hear a speech. Bush needs a captured crowd at a military base. On his own, he couldn't get half of what Dean draws on a weekday night.

A few nights ago, Dean drew another 10,000 in Seattle. With numbers like this, he might be worth a bet.
-snip-

Then he contradicts himself on the young and white part immediately with this:
-snip-
And right away, George Morrin, 67, standing at the side of the stage, told me that he had been working to set up the park since 8 in the morning.

"This is the first time that I've ever done anything in a campaign," he was saying. He is an old copywriter who lives at 89th and York.
-snip-

he also gets a gratuitous snipe in about Graham, too. Don't know what's in Breslin's craw (probably toxic dust from the towers which Bush's EPA said was fine), but the article is hardly a specific dump on Dean. I think he's just depressed.

edit - typo

...

So's Ted Rall.
So's Aaron MacGruder.

I guess when Joe Conason weighs in then, he too, will be "just depressed" and somehow found to be suspect here at DU. We'll see.

I'm sure Kerry could have gotten him all fired up. *cough*

I must follow the opinions of people meticulously selected by you, because I'm unwilling and unable to think for myself? Is that about right?

.

But it tells you Dean has virtually NO minority support, as the minorities "ARE THE DEMOCRATIC WING OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY"
They consitiute the most liberal, progressive, and are the furthest left wing of the party, and Dean is diametrically opposed to the progressive platform that the minorities represent.

that all the Southern Afro-Americans supported the war (although all the Afro-American churches and leaders were quite outspoken against invading Iraq). So it always comes back to Dean is either to conservative or Dean is too liberal.

In pursuing you own personal vendetta, you'll change the tune to fit the score everytime.

if minorities are so progressive, why do they favor invading foreign countries and killing a bunch of innocent people? Or maybe they don't. Or maybe does not compute . . . whir click . . does not compute (smoke)

a VERY differnt tacks on fiscal politics than Dean, and his ideas on fiscal conservatism are quite offensive to them. His behavior regarding funding the police, the prosecutors, and underfunding the public defenders office is also a bit problematic for most of them, given that a rather larger percentage of the prison population unfortunately consists of minorities. Again this aries. but on the fiscal side, minorities have a tendency to be far more progresive than non, minorities. As to war, the Jewish minority tends towards a more progressive platform, but war against Iraq is not something that displeased this minority. Blacks again, have the same ideas. It is not necessarily PROGRESSIVE to be a complete pacifist, from the viewpoits of various minorities, such a those who are living in the U.S. who happen to have had to leave their own lands in order to get away from rather brutal dictatorships. I am sure many Cubans would not mind an invasion of Cuba, even those who are Democrats.

Do not confuse your ideas of PROGRESSIVE politics with those of other groups. It computes very, very well, from a non rich kid, non computer assisted group of non college people. Minorities have been at the FOREFRONT of progresive democratic politics fot the better part of the last 60 years.

Most latinos are to some degree progressive, very fiscally liberal, but twice as many latino democrats are anti-abortion, rather than pro-choice. But still, three times as many latino's identify themselves as democrats, not republicans, and among democratic candidates, Deans support is lower than any of the other top tier candidates. Dean is the only candidate who sould lose to Bush among latinos.

Their ideas about domestic politics are quite progressive, far more than Deans domestic policy, which is by and large, due to his fiscal conservatism, to result in cutting programs that assist those in lower economic rungs, and unfortuantely in the U.S. minorities are still getting the wrong end of the stick there. Deans fiscal policies in Vermont had precisely that effect, driving the lower middle class into poverty. Deans policies in effect caused the number of people living at or below the povery levels to gron by about 12-15 percent, with a corresponding drop in the number of people in the middle class.

He doubled the number of people in prison while he was governor. primarily for non-violent victimless crimes. This doen not include the additional numbers required to be on prisin release type programs under supervision. Again, the people most effected by Denas polcies in this area were the poor and minorities.

Being against war is not the sole defining charactaristic of progressive politics. That is the mistake of Dean and his supporters.
Or perhaps mistrake is the incorrect word. Like neo-cons, Dean supporters are attempting to own the language, and define progressive and non-progressive in their own white, upper middle class, or student oriented terms. Checking on Deans polling stats whereever you can find them broken down in this way, this is precisely where almost all of Deans support comes from.

He has changed his position so many times on everything, that those who have been too often screwed by the non minority politicians, simply do not trust Dean.

Most southern blacks prefer than international conflic of the nature we are now in be handled militarily.

What Dean IS is the opposite of what most of the minorities in the dmocratci party are. Socially conservative. Fiscally Liberal.

For the most part, Dean supporters either do not notice that he has changed his position a dozen times on every issue.

THe main thing that is going to kill Dean is his intial statements on Sociual Security, tied in with his other flip flops during the campaign. Even the idea of touching social security, rasing the retirement age will eventually be the kiss of death for Dean, as other cnadidates keep brining it up, along with Dean tendency to change his position depending on time and place. Remind people that Deans can also change his mind again about SOcial Security after he gets in office, when no one can stop him, and Dean is dead. Fean that Dean will do another flip flop will work well. After all Dean has supported raising the reirement age since 1995, and only recently said that was a mistake. THe old may get slow, but not stupid. That is all it will take. There are lots of baby boomers getting ready to retire now, and if Dean can flip once, he can flip again, and there is record of him doing so as gvernor which will make WONDERFUL front page re-runs at AARP.
Dean is going to spend the next five months defending his record, and trying to account fo differing statments on different issues when talking to different people.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I know that a lot of you are going to vote for Dean -- he talks a good game; he can be charismatic and charming. But I'm warning you. This man will tell you what you want to hear, or at least tell you something that has some little kernel of something that you can interpret as support for the things that are important to you. But when the time comes to stand up and lead on the issue, to take on the money interests and backsliders in his own party, that stiff little spine will turn into a slinky.

If you vote for him, it's your job to stand behind him with a poker and keep him headed in the right direction. Don't give him any honeymoon period, either--keep the pressure on from the second you drop that ballot in the box. The minute you relax, he's going to turn right back into what he really is...a privileged, arrogant, middle of the road republican. Put your political energy into getting some truly progressive folks into the House and Senate, and into State legislatures around the country so that there will be more pressure from more directions. We need to get together our sophisticated progressive thinkers to develop policy ideas in every area, so that we're ready with real, well-thought out counter-proposals for the incremental changes a Dean administration might put forth. If you feel you must, support Dean, do--but then go do the work necessary to make real change.

Ron Jacobs, Donna Bister and Marc Estrin comprise the OLD NORTH END RAG collective. The RAG is an agitational community newspaper serving the Old North End of Burlington, Vermont. This neighborhood is a primarily working class section of Vermonts largest city that has a history of political activism


http://www.counterpunch.org/jacobs08292003.html

Ron: "I have never voted for a presidential candidate."

Marc: Green.

Donna: Dean is "a privileged, arrogant, middle of the road republican".

nt

and then explains why it isn't, really, according to him (and of course that is the section Nick highlighted)

But, actually Dean isn't always a smooth operator -he isn't polished and fluid behind the podium (I never could see the appeal in Hillary either since she "ahhhs" enough to distraction through most of her speeches)-he is interesting though. The sections of his speech I saw were kind of casual---"Now, we are going to talk about...Let's talk about", which was likeable and inclusive. Nice big town meeting touch.

Breslin proceeds to a classist smear job, every remark intend to illicit a disdainful air about privilige and wealth, as if Dean wasn't entitled to roll up his shirtsleeves on a hot summer night in NYCity. He uses every hook from WASP to no Jews allowed to white only crowd--as if it was all an intentional formula. Wonder what he would have to say about FDR or the Kennedys? Kerry better not attempt any populist overtones which might betray the company he keeps.

Genuine criticism is constructive, but this was just mean-spirited, as if he felt obligated to acknowledge Dean's success but compelled to attack him for something he has no control over, like the circumstances Dean was born into. Attack because he had the pen and the position to do so.

BTW,Dean was born Catholic, Jimmy, check your facts.

http://www.who2.com/howarddean.html

.

you're not allowed to talk to me. ;-)

Thanks anyway, even though I see that I used illicit instead of elicit. Should proof read everyonce in a while, huh?

Sheez...this piece belongs in the circular file along with Kerry "looking French." I thought Jimmy was capable of being a little more fair than that.

Kerry with that Jewish relative and Dean with his Jewish with. Now heres one only Kucinichites may know, our guy has a Jewish girlfriend, hes divorced if you must know, not sure what she was.

And my vote counts the same as Breslin's

Back to planning for the Sep. 3rd meetup - have my package of bumper stickers, pins, and cap on the way!

Damn...I thought this thread was going to be an autobiography :-(

My one concern about his speech at the California Democratic Convention was that it lacked substance. I had no idea where he stood on most issues. If you look in Late Breaking News, there is an article about his changing positions. It has been predicted that he will fizzle before the election. Maybe that's what the writer saw happening.