Is it true that Kerry wants to force kids to do community service?

I haven't ever heard of this before, and if this is true, as a parent, it really pisses me off! This is a link from what appears to be a youth group. At first I thought it might be a Republican site, but they like other Democrats, just not Kerry. Kerry supporters, what's the story on this mandatory service thing? I honestly have never heard of it before and I have kids, so I want to know what it's all about since it would affect my family. Here's the link:

http://www.geocities.com/hatredsucks/johnkerry.html

n/t

to graduate high school where I live in Canada.

And I oppose it. NO ONE is going to make MY kids work for free in order to graduate from high school! I looked on his website on the issue and he even wants to require kids 13-17 spend an entire summer working for free. That's bullshit! Kids 13 aren't even allowed to get paid to work and he wants to make them work for free? WTF?

(Just imagine that as a euphemism for what I really think of your efforts.)

"And there is something else they can do if we give them the chance. Teenagers thirteen to seventeen are too old for child care and too young for many summer jobs.

Parents don't want to leave them alone all summer but too many families don't have any alternative. I propose Summers of Service that will involve teenagers in the work of their communities.

Supervised by AmeriCorps volunteers, they can visit nursing homes, clean up local areas, or teach seniors computer skills - and, in turn, they will earn a grant to apply to their college education."

they can pick some cotton and plow some fields so they keep out of trouble. Doing this will earn them three hots and a cot.

BARF!

but your spewing on this subject displays clearly your lack of any kind of rational thought on the subject. Asking anyone, even a teenager, to get out of their own selves and do something for others is a wonderful idea.

Why do you think they call it Volunteering? Because it's voluntary. When one is forced to work against their will it's called slavery.

Edwards had a high school community service program six months before Kerry announces it. And for all the hyberbolic language you use, this is not about slavery, it is about giving back to our communities. Kids who have to work are exempted, and the kids who do it can do it in their school, their place of worship, the Y, the library, the parks system.
Listen, if you think community service is slavery, maybe you ought to also think about whether you are a Democrat.

It was such a good idea of Edwards that Kerry "borrowed" it. So if you don't like it, don't vote for Edwards or Kerry.

KK, you really crack me up. Where did you get the idea that this was intended to be a 'requirement'? We could pick mushrooms off your ideas... lol

(IV) A SUMMER OF SERVICE. The teen years are when young peoples' characters and conceptions of citizenship are most truly formed. John Kerry believes we need to offer teenagers the chance to serve and improve their communities. Making the Most of the Teen Years. Thirteen to seventeen year olds are too old for child care and too young for many summer jobs. John Kerry believes we should tap their energy and idealism through a summer of service learning. Supervised by AmeriCorps members, these young people could visit nursing homes, clean up local areas, or teach seniors computer skills. In turn, they would receive a $500 grant to apply to their college or vocational educations down the road. Helping Balance Work and Family. Parents do not want to leave their children alone all summer but most cannot afford other means of care. The Summer of Service program would give parents peace of mind at the same time build more responsible and dedicated young citizens and stronger, more vibrant communities.
http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/johnkerry_service_fact_sheet.pdf

Just who the FUCK does he think he is? He also wants to enlist more kids into the military...it says so right on his site. Kids are human beings and they deserve the same kind of respect adults receive. The government has NO business requiring a child to work for free or work at all if they don't want to. What an asshole!

because you are mixing up two different parts of the plan. Since I don't think anyone else shares your confusion, and I don't think you are interested in the facts here, I'll leave it at that.

BTW, if you are so concerned about your children, you might try setting a better example for them and skip the profanity in a political discussion.

:)

mandatory military service.

It's a violation of their rights. My kids will be forced to work by the government over my dead fucking body.

If you were to do so, it would have to be by your own effort.

Have you heard of the 13th Amendment? lol

In my day, all kids were required to attend school. And, yes, they were required to WORK. Not just throw spitballs and dip girl's pigtails in the inkwell. And we weren't paid to do this work. In fact, gasp, sometimes we had to buy our own supplies and materials. Oh the horror.

You know...seriously...


Kerry is not my first pick but his idea of giving kids a chance to earn some high credits and maybe some money, while performing a service in the community, sounds like a good one.

By the way, my PARENTS had fully expected me to work without pay, not only around the house, but also to put in my time in the community in the church choir and even, gasp, visiting old folks' homes and putting a little cheer in their day. You wouldn't be calling my parents or my minister child slavers would you?

Don't ruin your child's life by denying her the chance to be a part of a community and learning how to give and take without it always being about the dollar bill.


everything shouldn't be about money, we poison children when they teach them they should do nothing except watch tv without being paid

that could be considered "work".

Many highschools and colleges across the nation require some sort of community service or public interest requirement to graduate. Fuck, both my high school and the law school I attend requires it. It's not that uncommon. If you actually read what Kerry is proposing he is suggesting a community service requirement for graduation. Are you really that opposed to community service? Do you really expect people to get paid for doing such service?

In highschool I had to put in twenty hours over the course of 4 years. That's not a lot. I helped run a clothes drive for a homeless shelter in Denver, I collected medicine for a village in Africa, and I sent money and clothing to Russia. I exceeded my requirement very easily.

In law school, I'll be putting in hours and hours of work on a capital punishment case. I am not put out. I don't feel like my rights were violated.

All kids under 18 on the street will be collected by black windowed police vans and then forced to work on community service projects like collecting trash and cleaning John Kerry's house(s).

but this made me LOL.

n/t

That somnabitchin' commie pinko!!!

"States and local communities will design their own service requirements that make it significant without being onerous. For instance, Maryland's requirement is seventy-five hours over the course of high school and local educators have discretion to implement this in ways that meet student needs.

Nothing in this plan will prevent young people who need to work to save for college from being able to work. Certainly fifty to a hundred hours in the four years of high school doesn't seem too much to ask from young people as they take on the responsibility of being a citizen.

We can and will assist local communities in shaping High School Service plans to fit what they seek to accomplish - and then we must assure sufficient resources to put those plans in place."

Gee, what was wrong with making those slaves work for free since their master was feeding and housing them? I can't believe you don't realize how degrading, insulting and WRONG his idea is! I don't care if it's one hour in a whole lifetime, it's a violation of civil and human rights. Optional service is fine, but NOT mandatory in order to get a goddamned diploma! That is just SO wrong!

Volunteering is wrong. OH MY GOD. Kids already KNOW they have to be part of some sort of community service for their college applications. Alot of high school work/study and intern programs are not paid. You're grasping at straws here, it's just sad.

We're talking about FORCED work. Enlisting in the military is voluntary. Being drafted is being forced to be in the military. It's the being FORCED thing I have a problem with. It is WRONG!

25 hours back to your community is not equivalent to being forced into the military. We have a great country, but one of the problems we have is that too many people are "takers" who think that they were born here and have no obligations except taxes. Would that be you? We all have a moral obligation to give back to our communities, and it is important that our children learn that lesson and that it becomes part of who they are.

WHEN we choose, WHERE we choose and HOW we choose. The government has no right to force anyone to do community service. It's a bad idea and people will resent it. When people resent being forced to do something against their will they don't put in much effort and have a miserable, negative attitude. What old people want a bunch of angry rude teenagers visiting them when they don't want to be there? The second this kind of work is forced on a person it makes that work totally worthless.

That's biased against unhealthy people, and forces children to engage in physical activity!

Oh, that dirty rat-bastard!!!

Mainly because it prevented me from taking AP Computer Science last year.

well I like what I have had.
2 years of mandatory gym as a freshman and sophomore and as a junior and senior opitional.

but maybe he like supports it so kids can experience life, experience in the world makes you who you are. I am just observing. Theres a lot of sites like that only hate one candiate, theres one on Kucinich too and it was sick!

Something like that would totally screw up how my family works. As a single parent, I have enough carting around of kids to sports, band, other activities, and get to the places I need to be. No one has ANY right to do this. I have no problem with having an OPTIONAL program like this, but I am disgusted by Kerry wanting to make this mandatory to receive a diploma. That is fucked up!

but I think he probably has good intentions, also I would suggest emailing him. It should be choice related I agree,

community service. There was a choice of activities or areas would could pursue. I ended up choosing working at the state hospital in Concord, New Hampshire. It was basically a hospital for the state's mentally ill. It was a tough experience, one that I would never had done without the prerequisite.

I think, if we can 'make' kids get certain requirements to graduate (which we already do -- its called classes) than it is certianly reasonable to put this issue on the table -- especially as school days get shorter across the country.

If you think our kids are becoming full citizens through the current education set up, that's fine. Personally, I disagree. But I dont think its the kids fault. I dont think we give them enough options to pursue.

And if you dont think our society needs more volunteers, that's fine too. But again, I disagree. I see dirty parks, isolated old people, and general lack of community in this country. I also see alot of bored kids hanging out every afternoon.

My school doesn't have a civics class. All I ever learned about government I learned from C-SPAN, the press, and DU.

:shrug:

Oh my god, if you want to complain about it, can't you at least find something a little more rational than this?

The idea of national service has been around for a while, Clinton spoke about it.

"The National Service-Learning Leader Schools initiative was launched by President Clinton in 1996 at his commencement address at Pennsylvania State University. During the address, President Clinton put forth the following challenge to high schools:

"I challenge every high school in America to make service a part of its basic ethic. Every high school student who can do so should do some community service. There are some schools, both public and private, that require community service as a part of their curriculum. I say, good for them. Commitment to community should be an ethic we learn as soon as possible so we carry it throughout our lives."

http://www.leaderschools.org/slls_history.html

I actually wouldn't support laws forcing every school to implement National Service. I would rather see a very strong voluntary program.

Oh, and senior citizens have had the Green Thumb program for a while too. I think that's the name. Maybe it got cut, I don't know. But seniors worked in schools, libraries, etc. and were paid. So Kerry's Retired But Not Tired sounds like putting elements of this program back in place.

Except I was in middle school at the time/

with this. In fact, I think it's a good idea. I would suggest that you're looking for things about Kerry to get pissed of about. C'mon, lighten up. Kerry really is one of the good guys.

5 Reasons to vote for Howard Dean!!!

Reason #5:

Defeating John Kerry. Analysts agree John Kerry, the most anti-youth candidate in this primary, is competing most directly against Howard Dean. The two men are targeting the same primary voters. Therefore, if Howard Dean does well in the earliest primaries, John Kerry will have to give up and drop out of the race promptly.

If Dean does poorly in the early primaries, Kerry will think he has a shot and will stay in the race for the long haul and may even win. With Kerry's threats against youth, it is best Kerry disappear as soon as possible. Howard Dean can make that happen.

<>

http://www.geocities.com/hatredsucks/howarddean.html

You really are getting pretty desperate...

I guess I am impartial on this, but doesnt seem that bad from what I read.

ya can't get in to most four-year schools without some kind of community service.

As long as it is not a burdensome amount of time, I can't think of a better way for kids to learn about the meaning of civic and community responsibility. It's all well and good to talk, and that's all most people do. When it comes to actually doing anything, nobody "has time". Well, most kids in school have the time to do a little community service in the summer. As it was posted above, it's nearly a requirement to get into a competitive college. I can't imagine that Kerry is proposing anything along the lines of a second job here. Does anyone know how this program works in Maryland?

I dunno, I do agree completely its wrong if its forced.

Personally, I don't think you should be able to graduate high school without a minimum number of years of a foreign language. Other countries do it -- why not us?

But I think KK's real problem with this proposal is that it came from Kerry, lol.

Well I have a problem with standarlized testing but the language thing is ok, knowing another language is a big skill.

My old one had mandatory community service (called SSL hours *student service learning*) and you had to get 60 hours in order to graduate. When I moved to California, my new school had 45 hours in order to graduate.

We also have mandatory one year of a foreign language, which isn't really a problem since most people take a language anyway. But they have held people back for not doing these things and they remind us about it constantly.

Actually, I think it's a rather good idea. It has motivated a lot of students to get off their butts and go out and do something. We have about 20 different clubs at my school and maybe 15 of those are community service based. They're all really popular and we have a great time getting involved and helping. There's A LOT to do in a place like Los Angeles.

It seems like the teens here are majority for Kucinich :). Woohoo! I would love to go to LA.

And yeah, I noticed that :) I love LA. I used to live in DC, but things have been so much nicer since I came here. I've been trying to get to some Kucinich events since the last one I went to was to see him speak in the San Fernando Valley during the summer. School has been bogging me down to no end; SATs and all that.

--Alisa

See you around DU. *does math* whoa we got a sizable crowd here our age for DK. Thats terrific, see you around. You lived in DC or in the MD or VA suburbs.

My mom still lives in Montgomery County, MD and my dad lived on Capitol Hill before we moved out here. Where are you from?

--Alisa

Herndon. Nice town. California must be nice, I wouldnt mind being out there. Its always nice to meet others your age here.

(II) A MANDATORY HIGH SCHOOL SERVICE REQUIREMENT. As President, John Kerry will ensure that every high school student in America does community service as a requirement for graduation. John Kerry understands that young people have many obligations and recognizes that a service requirement should not be onerous or unrealistic for students to meet. Maryland and numerous school districts around the country already have such a requirement and have had great results. Knowledge of the rights and responsibilities of citizenship - including the duty to serve your community - are as important to American adults as knowing how to read and do math. Combined with a curriculum that teaches students about democracy, citizenship and civic participation, this high school service requirement will be a rite of passage for every young person in the country. States would design service programs that meet their community and educational needs. John Kerry does not believe in unfunded mandates. No state would be obligated to implement a service requirement if the federal government does not live up to its obligation to fund the program.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/johnkerry_service_fact_sheet.pdf

Nobody wants to be forced to serve, and this is how this will be perceived. I'm also suspicious of the "rite of passage" line. That makes me think of hazing thingys.

This year, my (private) school instituted a new service requirement for juniors: now we all have to spend three nights in Camden. Maybe it'll be somewhat enjoyable...but I'm @*#&$ed off that it's a requirement. I don't appreciated being told "Hey, <REAL_NAME>: You get to go to Camden!" And others of my age won't appreciate being required to serve either.

I am not sure, I seem to remember something about community service in middle school. I want them to get rid of some standarlized testing, the SATs keep em but this SOL shit drives me insane.

Guess what? I was wrong.

It was a requirement. And within the curriculum there are requirements, like so many years of math and english. Kerry is putting forth the idea that school should be more than books and homework, that it can teach "civics" in a much more real and meaningful way. Think of it as replacing civics class. If it was the same amount of hours, overall, except it was outside the classroom, would you still have such a problem with it?

Is this "gov't official" civics or "DU-style independent study" civics?

From what I read, the States would decide, I think. But I'm sure that will wind up being a local fight. After all, whoever gets these kids, is getting free help for their program.

Yeah, civics class' are being cut from a lot of curriculums. Because, Jebus knows, we don't need informed citizens anymore.

in her 5th grade class last year. They had to pick a project and track it for a semester, write about their experience, etc. She worked at the local animal shelter, and other kids worked in nursing homes, collected for food banks, etc.

This was a requirement for all of the 5th graders. If she hadn't done the project, we wouldn't have this:

That's one cute pup!

:)

your daughter learned the value of service, learned about the shelter and related issues, your dog found a home, you got a dog, and we all got to enjoy the pic.

Talk about win/win. Maybe this little story is not the biggest issue in the world but it is with these small victories that we CAN change the world into a better place.

It was a good project, and it does teach the kids the importance of helping others.

My kids both attend an afterschool program that is much more of a school than a daycare; the owners are former elementary school teachers who care deeply about the kids and their community -- every year they do several community projects. A few years ago they won the local United Way award for community service, for the money they raised to build a rehab center.

My daughter has been in this program for 6 years, and my son for 2 years, and they both have a great sense of responsibility for their fellow human beings. They are taught to help people for no other reason than that help is needed, and while we do extoll the same values at home, I like that this is a part of their education. It has undoubtedly made them more aware and more humble.

The school motto is "You have not lived a memorable day unless you have something for someone who cannot repay you."

Congrads to the project :).

The kids are taught above all to respect one another and to respect their community. It's not all heavy-handed, it's very gentle and fun.
One of the best things is how the older kids learn to work with the younger kids.

The owners are of course Democrats.

I saw this refered not your kids' program but programs like this refered to as the Hitler Youth. I see it as community and helping people out. Its something to be proud of, you must be a proud parent.

that we have a responsibility to teach kids about the importance of community service and getting involved. Kids tend to be fairly self-centered -- it's just part of their development -- but they are also capable of amazing selflessness and generosity, if given the opportunity.

I also think that these impressions made at a young age stick with a child forever and become part of who they are. My parents were very active and charitable, and it's just part of my life. I hope to pass that on to my kids.

Of course I understand that people are wary of "forced volunteering" or creating a Hitler Youth, but I doubt very much that is John Kerry's intent. We need to instill a sense of community and responsibility in our kids, and a program like this, if done correctly, could make a lifelong difference.

Okay, and I was also moved by "Pay it Forward"... :)

Its a good one.

Kerry would go further by making public service a requisite to a high school diploma. And he would offer four years of college tuition for two years of public service.

Some Massachusetts high schools, including Andover High School, already require students to perform community service as a graduation requirement.

http://www.eagletribune.com/news/stories/20030520/FP_002.htm

If Kerry ever managed to get this required "service" passed, the second the Republicans took the white house again it would turn into mandatory military service. I surely can't be the only person here who isn't so naive and gullible as to think something like this wouldn't end up being abused. Volunteering is VOLUNTARY. That's how it needs to stay.

lol

but I of course am not in the school of that the house and senate will be the same next year. Thats what confuses me, people think congress is gonna have the same makeup in the next congress that is 2005 will be the same as its been. They are gonna make it hell for anyone to pass stuff, so I see that often attriubted to Kucinich just I :eyes:, we dont have a clue what tommorow may bring, it could bring anything.

has a much better chance of shaping the debate in such a way that will provide some coattails. We do need to at least get the Senate back and narrow the gap in the house if we want to effect real change.

Thats why I like Dennis and Kerry as well. I think pretty much all of us disagreed with IWR but some of us including me despite supporting Kucinich looked at Kerry's record and realized it wasnt so bad. Plus hearing that Kerry wants to get rid of nukes too is a plus for me.

I'm not kidding either. You're either pulling our legs, or just completely off the deep end.

"No, I swear! The next thing will be mandatory military service and probably slave labor camps!"

Aye, caramba!

Yes :eyes: helping out the elderly will envolve in to mandatory military service and slave labor camps. I hate to be mean but thats a real ignorant thing to say.

"I can see it now...

If Kerry ever managed to get this required "service" passed, the second the Republicans took the white house again it would turn into mandatory military service. I surely can't be the only person here who isn't so naive and gullible as to think something like this wouldn't end up being abused."

Is somehow an ignorant statement to make? Karaoke truly seems to want to get to the bottom of this issue. I respect his sincerity deeply, and his opinion will always be cherished for its honesty and integrity.

and look what Bush managed to do to that in less than 3 years. Things were pretty good in this country just 3 or 4 years ago, and look what the Republicans have done this time. Am I really foolish for thinking this kind of program could be abused? Kerry writes a program that calls for mandatory service that also encourages kids to join the military. It's not that far of a stretch for someone like Bush to make a couple of amendments if he has enough Republicans in Washington, like right now. It can and eventually will happen again and I don't like this idea for many reasons. You can get people to volunteer of their own free will if you inspire and motivate them, like Dean Corps is doing. Forced service isn't a good thing.

I am a single parent of 4 kids who already is juggling the schedules of 3 busy teenagers, one toddler and my work. Between sports practice, music lessons, games, band, school concerts, jobs, and other activities that I am the ONLY person for my kids to rely on for transportation in this VERY rural area (it takes more time to drive to this stuff) I can't fit anything else in. This would be 3 different community service schedules that would be added. My boss is already frustrated as hell that I have to leave work early every day during the week to pick kids up, drop them off and cart them around. If there were more limits on when I could work I'd lose my damn job! On top of that, I really can't afford driving around anymore than I already am. I can't even afford what I drive now. This idea of Kerry's won't make people care more about their community. It will make them resentful for being forced to do things and less likely to view volunteering in a positive light. On top of that, the only time my kids get to see their father is during the summer. He lives in another state. I take serious issue with the government trying to infringe on my life or the lives of my family members. And my children all already volunteer when they have the time. They don't need John Kerry telling them when or where or how often to do that, thank you very much.

An her arrest in Vermont For Homeschooling, and her having her son taken away from her while she was in jail and Dean opposition to legislation that allowed homeschooling in 2002.

or how about:

Patricia and Ray O'Dell's four homeschooling children, 8 year old Elizabeth,11 year old Angela, 14 year old Samantha and 15 year old Andrew, are still being held hostage by Vermont Social Rehabilitative Services (SRS) on the bogus charge of 'educational neglect'. These children continue to be subjected to forced separation from their parents, forced public schooling, forced immunizations, verbal and physical abuse in the foster homes (I have photos to prove it) and a multitude of other violations of their civil, constitutional and God-given rights as American citizens.

Or how about:

VERMONT HOMESCHOOLING MOM JAILED
Refuses to Present Child to Court


MONTPELIER, SEP 6 (ZENIT).- Last September 1, homeschooling mother Karen
Maple appeared in the Vermont circuit court without bringing her
15-year-old son Trevor, whom the school district has diagnosed as learning
disabled. As a result, she has been placed in jail for contempt of court
without bail.


The story began very typically. Seventh-grader Trevor was bored at school,
displayed a short attention span, and read at a second grade level.
Academic problems escalated into social problems. He even went to live with
his grandparents to give another school system a try, but to no avail.


While discussing Trevor's problems with his school's vice-principal, he
advised Trevor's mom that homeschooling could be a perfect alternative.
Considering her options, schedule, and abilities, just two and a half
months into the school year, Karen Maples decided to give it a try.


Vermont requires homeschoolers to submit a portfolio to the Board of
Education or provide a Stanford Achievement Test score. Karen submitted a
portfolio the first year, but for efficiency she switched to the
standardized test the next year, and the year after. Trevor's score
improved markedly, as did his self-confidence when he was in a learning
environment that didn't call him "learning disabled." School officials
deemed the test results suspect.


http://www.cin.org/archives/cinnews/199909/0005.html

But finally legialtion was passed after Dean left office that:

COOL! Vermont's governor has

COOL! Vermont's governor has appointed a homeschooling parent to sit on the state Board of Ed.

The 10-member board oversees the Department of Education, teacher licensing and the standards of student performance. It also approves homeschooling curricula and independent schools.
Maybe in her new-found position, she can do something about that last bit.

http://www.cobranchi.com/archives/000413.html

Dean sat around and encouraged the arrests of a number of parents who chose to homeschool. Even though they were following the very demanding restrictions that Vermont placed on homeshooling, they were harassed by Deans Education Board, and in all cases the state was founbd to have violated the law.

Hows that for restrictive.

Do you have a Lexis-Nexis thingee? How the hell do you find this stuff!?!

This is an old one, been done here before by Nick of course. Karen Maple was arrested for not showing up for a hearing, as anyone else would be. (That being said, she was not treated fairly; her case is sad.)

Hey Nick, is there evidence that "Dean sat around and encouraged the arrests of a number of parents who chose to homeschool?" I realize that he was the Governor and he shares some responsibility for what the Board of Ed was doing, but you are suggesting that he targeted homeschoolers. The homeschooling issue is indeed tricky, and clouded by Libertarians and far-right Christians who don't think their kids should go to "Government Schools". Certainly not true of all homeschoolers, I know some great ones, but this is not such a simple issue.

I know you think Dean's "a monster", "a tyrant", and "in a way worse than Bush", but please. Get a grip. I would no sooner believe that Dean "sat around and encouraged the arrests" of homeschooling parents than I would believe that Kerry wants to force kids into slave volunteer labor.

That Maples had done NOTHING wrong, and that her rights had been violated. It is not an old one. Another family, as indicated had the same thing done to them.

When taken in isolation, one can make excuses for Deans behavior, but when one adds Deans firing of Robert Appel, who was rated as running the BEST Public Defenders office in the United States, because he managed to get grants to fund the public defenders offices after Dean cut the budget because of his unconstitutional belief that :crimanals get all of the breaks., anmd his abysmal record regarding Sierra Blanca and Yucca Mountain, a pattern emerges of complete insensitivity and disreagard for the poor and the indigent.

It is very clever of Dena and his supporters to come up with bogus arguments after the fact, but the fact is Dean is an elitist scumbag:

Vermont Defender General Robert Appel Not Re-Appointed to Post: Underscores the Value of Indigent Defense Commission Model and Need for Independence of the Defense Function

August 17, 2001 - In August, Vermont Governor Howard Dean appointed Matthew Valerio as Defender General ending the tenure of Robert Appel, who held the post for over eight years. In Vermont, the Defender General serves at the will of the Governor. The appointment of a new Defender General had been rumored for many months, because of public disagreements Mr. Appel and Governor Dean had over the funding of the state's indigent defense system. (Further details to be published in the next issue of The Spangenberg Report).

http://www.spangenberggroup.com/pr_081701.html


Or lets try:

Attitudes towards Justice

Dean's approach to criminal justice is regressive and draconian. Dean the governor was no friend of the public's right to legal defense. According to various attorneys in public defender's offices around the state, Dean underfunded public defense, pouring monies into state's attorneys, police, and corrections instead. According to the Rutland, Vermont daily, The Rutland Herald, this meant that state's attorneys were able to round up ever-increasing numbers of criminal defendants, but public defenders were not given comparable resources to respond. This, too, helped to fill the prisons. Its not that crime increased, but that police had more laws that they could arrest people for (and more resources with which to do so). As an illustration of his opposition to a fair defense for all, Dean once stated at a meeting of criminal defense lawyers that he believed his job as governor was to make the defense attorneys' job as tough as possible. He also tried to block a $150,000 federal grant aimed at assisting defendants with mental disabilities.

Why would someone want to do that unless he had doubts about the validity of the 6th amendment to the US constitution? Is he motivated by a need to appear tough on crime? As Governor he claimed the legal system unfairly benefited criminals over prosecutors. According to his own words, he wanted to "quickly convict guilty criminals,"(so much for the presumption of innocence), and opined that the US needs a "re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties." John Ashcroft, perhaps there'd be a job for you in a Dean administration.


http://www.counterpunch.org/jacobs08292003.html

Or:

Dean's Corruption in the Green Mountain State
By Josh Frank

William Sorrell met Howard Dean 25 years ago, when Sorrell's mother introduced the two during a neighborhood gathering. Grandma Sorrell was a Democratic Party loyalist, and an activist to boot. At the time, her son William was a rookie state attorney, and Howard a young doctor with political aspirations. They connected immediately. Both had hopes of climbing among Vermont's elite, where they could flaunt their power freely.

In 1983, shortly after the two met, Dean was voted into the Vermont House of Representatives, where he served for three consecutive years. By 1986 he became the state's Lieutenant Governor, and in 1991 took over Vermont's top job when acting Gov. Richard Snelling died unexpectedly.


It wasn’t long before Sorrell started benefiting from Dean’s unexpected job promotion. A year after stumbling into the governor's mansion, Dean made Sorrell Vermont's Secretary of Administration. Three years later Dean was back at it, selling his man again, this time for the Chief Justice position of Vermont's Supreme Court.

http://www.pressaction.com/pablog/archives/001035.html#001035


Howard Dean's Constitutional Hang-Up

Dean Would Rather Execute an Innocent Man,

Than Let a Guilty One Walk Free

by Josh Frank

Dissident Voice
August 16, 2003



As Governor of Vermont, Howard Dean openly claimed that the legal system unfairly benefited criminal defendants over prosecutors. He even took measures to cut federal grant money aimed at helping mentally disabled defendants--as well as appointing state judges who were willing to undermine the Bill of Rights. In a 1997 interview with the Vermont News Bureau, Howard Dean admitted his desire to expedite the judicial process by using such justices to "quickly convict guilty criminals." He wanted individuals that would deem "common sense more important than legal technicalities." Constitutional protections (legal technicalities) apparently undermine Dean's yearning for speedy trials.

Perhaps he was looking to make Vermont more like George Bush's Texas, where defense lawyers are renowned for lacking the resources necessary to provide their clients a fair representation.


http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles7/Frank_Dean-Death-Penalty.htm

AS well as:

Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street.”

Dean said he had not taken a position on these questions. Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights — the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution — would have to be trimmed, the governor said:

“I haven't gotten that far yet. I think that's unlikely, but I frankly haven't gotten that far. Again, I think that's a debate that we will have.”

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/33681.html

OR how about:


UVM AND DEFENDER GENERAL HOST AFRICAN JUDGES
IN STUDY OF VERMONT PUBLIC DEFENDER SYSTEM

It is estimated that less than 10 percent of the people
accused of committing a crime in Tanzania, Ethiopia, Uganda and
Zambia receive any type of legal representation to argue their
case before the court. This is due to a variety of factors,
including their very new constitutions that list freedoms
politicians don't yet allow and the scarcity of financial
resources for a legal aid system.
The University of Vermont, in partnership with the Office of
the Defender General, will soon host twelve East Africans who are
interested in changing this situation.
The U.S. Information Agency is funding a $200,000 exchange
of legal experts between East Africa and Vermont. The Public
Defender/Legal Aid Citizen Exchange Program was proposed by Rob
Gordon, associate professor in the UVM Anthropology Department;
Vermont Defender General Robert Appel; and Lauren Kolitch, a
public defender in Chittenden County.
Study of Vermont's justice system, and close work with those
who run it, should help participants from Ethiopia, Uganda,
Tanzania and Zambia begin to develop their own public defender
and legal aid systems.


http://universitycommunications.uvm.edu/newsarchives/d.%20Spring-Summer%201995/UVM%20and%20Defender%20General%20Host%20African%20Judges%20in%20Study%20of%20Vermont%20Publ

This is not to praise Dean, but to criticise him for firing the man who was responsible for creating a public defenders system in Vermont that had gained WORLD-WIDE recognition for its quality.

Dean fired Appel for obtaing grants to provide adequate defense when Dean greatly increased the budget to police and public prosecutors, while CUTTING the budets to the Public Defenders offices.

The full story of Dean attempting to block a Department of Justuce Grant to assist the mentally ill have proper public defense is here:



Vermont Govenror Initially Blocks Defender General
From Acccepting Deartment of Justice Grant---
Only to Rescind his decision after Increased Media Pressure

file http://www.spangenberggroup.com/newsletter/TSG_vol5_issue2.pdf.


or:

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:z3DJ596-pFoJ:www.spangenberggroup.com/newsletter/TSG_vol5_issue2.pdf+%22Howard+Dean%22+%22Public+DEfenders%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Deans behavior in this are is utterly monsterous. It resulted in Dean NOT reappointing Appel for trying to keep a balanced defenders system. Deans favoring of Prosecutors and police over Public Defenders is a great miscarriage of Justice, and his preference resulted in a 200 percent increase in the PROSON POPULATION in Vermont, and a 140 percent increase in the percentage of Women placed in prison.

If Deans policies were applies at the national level, and the statistics he created in Vermont apllied, the United States would as many people in jail as are incarcerated in EVER OTHER NATION on Earth.

It is easy to try to find justifications for every act Dean has performed, as well as his philosophical statements.

But taken together as a whole, Deans action as governot have been more insidious and in violation of civil and constitutional rights than ANYTHING John Ashcrofts Justice Department has even dreamed of being able to do.

Dean went from having a Public Defenders system that was considered a model for the third world, to one in which criminals without financial means are not entitled to an able or capable defense.

For the fifth largest law firm in the U.S. fifteentyh largest in the world.

I did their legal research and it was my job to train all new associate attorneys in the use of Westlaw and Lexis/Nexis.

Its easy, even without lexis nexis access, searching the Internat for what is available is simple.

I have access to Newspaper Databases online through my local public library, but you cant link the articles. So they can be printed into a post, and only a citation can be give.

There is a tom of dirt available on Dean though that method, but I dont post it often,as Dean supporters get whiny if they cant link to it.

Hey now...I can't speak to these specific cases but the law is NOT wrong for taking a very wary eye at parents who "homeschool."

Some parents will use the ruse of homeschooling to indoctrinate their children into religious fundamentalism and to deny their daughters an education. Teachers are supposed to be QUALIFIED. Most parents do not have teacher certification -- yet they think they can teach ALL subjects in a couple of hours a day and have their kid work on the lawn the rest of the day. I think not.

Forgive me for having a very cynical view of homeschooling but it has too often been a cover for rightwing activities. If Dean was wrong, and these parents were properly certified, and they were actually at home schooling the kids (rather than working at a job, as is probable), then fine.

Otherwise I'm giving Dean the benefit of the doubt, frankly.

Kids need a well-rounded education. Other kids. Other teachers. Academics. Physical education. And, yeah, some involvement in the community. It's all part of the package. You don't get that with keeping your kid at home.


and no one has accused me of being a deanie-bopper

why are your knickers in a twist?

I see you are either pulling junk off the Internet again, or self-sourcing from Deanforamerica.com.

Give it a rest.

5 Reasons to vote for Howard Dean!!!

Reason #5:

Defeating John Kerry. Analysts agree John Kerry, the most anti-youth candidate in this primary, is competing most directly against Howard Dean. The two men are targeting the same primary voters. Therefore, if Howard Dean does well in the earliest primaries, John Kerry will have to give up and drop out of the race promptly.

If Dean does poorly in the early primaries, Kerry will think he has a shot and will stay in the race for the long haul and may even win. With Kerry's threats against youth, it is best Kerry disappear as soon as possible. Howard Dean can make that happen.

http://www.geocities.com/hatredsucks/howarddean.html

Double K is totally pulling this out of the internet dregs.

Go to http://www.geocities.com/hatredsucks/ for the main page.

isn't this one of the things double d has "inspired" in so many of his supporters? to get out there and do community service? get involved in the shaping of your community? reaching out to others, connecting, peace love vote care community power village bla frikkin bla? if dean proposed this i'm sure there'd be a goddamn festival devoted to his innovative community service-- a pillar of domestic policy.

i personally think it's a good idea; perhaps it would make children more aware of their surroundings and concerned about what happens in their country. then we wouldn't need some 700 club televangelist to get the middle class brats off their asses-- or "inspire" them to vote. most kids 13-17 just atrophy on the couch all summer anyway (oh i am not talking about YOUR children of course so chill out m'kay); by september they have done little more than get the ps2 logo worn into their thumbs.

and P effing S: they receive college scholarships for it. ooh; that dastardly wicked evil kerry!@#&$!?!~

my brothers school required community service for graduation. and i had one class that required it to pass. i think it's a good thing. at the time i didn't like it, but i didn't like physical education either but can understand the need for that with the problems of health in this country. school is about learning through many ways. field trips, putting on shows,entering contests etc. we had a thing where on some fridays through the semester there would be multicultural show put on. i think later in life you realize the need or the benefits of these things.

This site, "Hatred Sucks" is a VERY partisan site for Howard Dean. The audacious label they give to John Kerry as "anti-youth" is preposterous. What has Kerry done that's been so detrimental to young people? He has said many times his campaign is ran and kept going by young people/college students. He himself was an active college student, in the democratic process.

I haven't perused this entire website, and I'm sure there is some good material here. But some of it borders on hysterical teenage defiance or something. In one article, the author claims that calling a teacher by Mr. or Ms. is an insult to students. Excuse me, but that's absolutely ridiculous. Teachers deserve the students' respect, especially now, with education going down the drain and teaching prospects that go with it. Oh great, let's give one more reason to repel teachers. Some teachers dig being called by their first names, some don't. That article did have a point in that Lousiana MADE IT LAW to address teachers as "Sir" or "Ma'am", which goes too far. But the thought that somehow the student is unfairly beaten into submission by simply being expected to show a little respect to a person who's up to 5 times older than them is either sheer arrogance or stupidity.

Look, community service for youth DOES NOT MEAN MILITARY SERVICE OR FARM LABOUR! I don't know where you got that idea, Karaoke. It's simply ludicrous. In my school, in Canada (the "great liberal place" that so many Americans want to move to), 20+ volunteer hours are required for grade progression each year. That number goes up to 50 if you want government funding for your college education.

The more young people volunteer, the more they give back to society. Volunteerism involves non-profit work. It doesn't mean that storeowners will now be able to employ students for no charge, which will somehow create an industrial revolution-esque workplace of underpaid, abused children. This is a good idea. It's already working here.

Kerry is far from anti Youth, that would seal the deal for me honestly, community service is important everywhere. This doesnt sound remotely close to labor or military service it sounds like helping out in the community and thats a good thing plus this helps the less fortunate students, I think get in to colleges, if I have read Kerry's education plan correctly. This is like a local Peace Corp doing good locally. Its people like us who would be affected George that Kerry has some strong points, any youth who lives in areas with corporate pollution would probably love a man like Kerry with a 97.5 lifetime record from LCV. I know people dont feel right on Kerry after IWR, but he wasnt like many of the GOP.

I think this website, "Hatred Sucks", sort of borders on the lunatic fringe. As I said, I'm sure there is some valid stuff in it, and the author is a proud but critical American patriot, which is always good. But articles like this anti-Kerry thing has absolutely no base. Where else has Kerry ever been labelled anti-youth? This site's taken something many people would see as a good thing, and has twisted it into something they pathetically try to pass off as harmful to the country. Sort of like rnc.com. They list a bunch of things "bad" about Kerry that sound like the best compliments in the world.

So and so gasp actually cares for the people not our big corporate family. Kerry has something that I think he should be very proud of and you may or may not know what that is, best environmental record. Kucinich is good in that but Kerry lol if anyone thinks he is a DINO and shill for the big companies think again. I think he is pro youth. This isnt manual labor Kerry is talking about, from what I hear from parents and students alike this isnt all too rare.

It's all-but-written-in-legal-ink that you have to do "forced volunteerism" to make it into a good institution after high school.

get in, fair enough.

That site advocates a boycott of Phillip Morris because THEY WON'T SELL CIGARETTES TO MINORS!

Of all the reasons to boycott PM USA, this is not one of them.

Contradicting the idea that 15 year olds are fully formed and capable of making such "decisions" about their health is an excellent reason to support Kerry's plan.

Cheers!

I don't just have one child this would affect. I have 3 teenagers and one toddler. I already have had to ask my boss to allow me to leave work a half hour earlier than I am supposed to every day during the week so I can get my kids to the places they need to get. I am a single mother who has no one to help me do these things. The father lives in another state. I live in a very rural area, and have to drive almost a half hour just to pick my son up from sports practice and home games EVERY day throughout just about the entire school year. Then there are music lessons, band practice, school concerts, part time jobs, academic activities, play groups, errands, etc. As it stands right now, gas is extrememly expensive and I'm having to spend over $300 a month for the driving I have to do now. I also have to pay rent, utilities, buy food and pay for the care of 4 children. It's not easy. The last thing I need is to be forced to have to do more things when I already have too much for one person to keep straight just so my kids can get a high school diploma. I don't think it's fair that the government can put more damn mandates onto my family that could end up costing my job, forcing me to take more time off, lose money, have to spend more money and have to give up something my family needs in order to do this. Volunteering is a wonderful thing...but it's VOLUNTARY. It should NEVER be forced. Encouraged, yes, but forced, NO! Such a requirement would be a burden on a lot of families. Yeah, Kerry will let me keep my almost non-existent tax cut, but he'll cost me a lot more by trying to force my kids to do community service. I STRONGLY oppose this.

and don't understand that some people can't afford to take time off from work and drive their kids to required community service without it being a hardship. It must be nice.

it wasn't a burden to my family. I took the damn bus, or bummed a ride from a friend, or walked. I didn't need my parents to cart my sorry-ass around.

The nearest bus service would take a $15 one way cab fare to reach. If Kerry gets elected this dumb stunt will lead to all kinds of poor kids having to drop out of high school and get a GED instead.

perhaps. maybe. definitely. :eyes:

Seeing as I once spent 6 months living in a homeless shelter after losing my income and not getting child support to help out, now that I managed to get on my feet I am not keen on the idea of some hoighty toighty asshole gold digging narcicist (sp?) of a politician doing something that could really set me back. I need my job to keep a roof over our heads and food on the table. I already am pushing my luck with my employer by having to leave 30 minutes early during the week so my son can play sports. I'm sure you don't give the sweat on a monkey's balls about whether or not my kids have a home or food to eat, but it's a little personal to me. I'm telling EVERYONE I meet about this. I don't want this jackass getting the nomination. He doesn't care about families like mine. Screw him!

In my day, we kids had friends. These friends had mothers. Some of these mothers had cars. When my mom was working, we caught rides in our friends' cars. When my mom was nonworking, she was one of those who gave rides to others.

And don't even bother to come back and say that your kids can't make friends. I was a high-functioning autistic. I barely spoke a word before puberty. And I had friends.

Your kids need to be out in the community. It isn't just necessary if you want them to go to college, for perhaps you don't want them admitted to college if it is another expense for you. But it makes memories and experiences for them that last a lifetime.


my annual income is in the high four figures, but no money doesn't have to mean no life

And I don't know the neighbors because I'm usually only at home for a little while in the morning and then at night. Most of the neighbors close by don't have kids at home, either. I also don't think you understand how things are in rural Vermont. I already spend $300 a month on gas to get to the places I need to get to now. And no, I don't have anyone nearby to help. I have a sibling who lives over 45 minutes away who works 2 jobs, and I can't very well ask them to help me out. Apparently you assume you know my situation better than I do. I'm glad you had that support around you to help you out. I don't have that.

The government as a positive force. Everytime I go to the public library, I thank God for the government. There is alot of waste and BS, but Kerry is making a big part of his campaign cutting out government pork.

When I taught my 4th graders, I gave them little civics lessons on the side about the positive aspects of government. They all hated Bush, but I didn't want them to think that government was nothing but thieves and liars. So I told them that the government means clean air, firehouses, city parks, nice drinking water, weekends, etc.

I told them that you can't be lazy about the government. You have to pay attention and work to make sure it does a good job. The rich people have the money, but that's nothing compared to the riches we have when we help each other out.

When I talked with those kids, they all thought it was a great idea that someone should get all the broken glass and wrappers off the playgrounds. They said they would never do it on their own, but when I asked them, they said they would be excited to pitch in if someone was there to organize it.

These high school programs don't have to be chain gang stuff. If the kids were to help old people buy groceries (or something!), something where they could see the actual benefit - I think that would be an absolutely wonderful thing. As long as they keep in mind that the purpose of this is to encourage a love of country and community, I am 1000% behind it.

As I said above, my kids are involved in an afterschool program where they do good bit of community service. Kids loving doing this, it makes them feel like they are making a difference (and they are).

I don't want my kids to feel powerless or cynical about the government or about their impact on the world around them.

("YOU have the power!" I tell them! Well, not really.)

That is what I consider this. Judges order community service, now principals are going to also? Parents can teach thier kids community service by volunteering and involving them too. I took my kids to Toys for Tots activities for years. When they were in scouts, they participated in food drives, helped paint houses and delivered food baskets.

This does not belong in school. Teach the basics, Reading, writting and rithmatic. This would just be one more reason that some parents would use to push for vouchers or take thier kids out of public schools. John Kerry can be alturistic on his own time, he has no authority to demand that I or my family be also.

I think if you really want this issue addressed you would ask it of the Kerry Campaign. From what I've seen and read we don't have any candidates who would mandate forced public service. I suspect this is pure FUD.

I just saw the original link going to a geocities site and assumed it was some wild-assed idea someone got.

HIGH SCHOOL SERVICE REQUIREMENT to ensure that every high school student in America does community service as a requirement for graduation. States would design service programs that meet their community and educational needs.

If a school board wants to make such a requirement mandatory, that is fine because that is a decision made by the community. For the federal government to mandate such a thing is assinine. Might as well call for mandatory military service as well.

Well, it isn't like I was out supporting Kerry in the first place, and it isn't like Kerry has a chance in hell of causing mandatory community service, but this is just evil.

Making kids ages 13 to 17 to spend a whole summer working for nothing. And what the hell is that "Community Defense Service"? It almost sounds like the National Guard. I am so disgusted by this idea. The ONLY thing he's proposing worth a shit is the trade off of 2 years of service for a college education, because it's optional and there is compensation for the work. 13 year olds aren't even allowed to get a part time job, but Kerry wants to make them work for a whole summer? Sorry, but he's an ass.

Gee, Kerry wants children to perform labor for free? I guess he misread Dean's labor proposals about getting other countries to meet our standards regarding labor and the environment and thought we should instead meet theirs. If China can have children laboring in the workplace, so can we.

I know, I know, Kerry doesn't want to bring back child labor. Kerry is looking at this with a hippie pie-in-the-sky point of view and if failing to see that this will actually put a burdon on people. You cannot mandate what people do with their time. You can tell them what to do with their money and how they can live their lives, but the moment you tell them they have to be someplace to do something for which they aren't compensated (how many people would go to jury duty if there wasn't some form of compensation?) you'll have a mini-revolution on your hands.

Volunteerism is a great thing and should be encouraged. The last thing you want is a teenager who would rather be hanging out playing PS2 changing your grandmother's bedpan.

Just think how much the stock in Heinz will go up if HS kids pick tomatoes during the summer for free. Sen. Heinz-Kerry will have no problem with money for his election eh?

but I am.

I want to stress that I don't for a second believe Kerry is supporting child labor or has bad intentions in promoting mandatory service, I just have a problem with totalitarian-esque things like this.

Overall, though, I do think it is funny to think of a youth corp 'learning the value of agriculture' picking tomatoes for Heinz. I can already see the commercial with Kerry in the foreground and children in the back covered in dirt and sweat as a uniformed guard with a shotgun watches over them as they pluck red tomatoes from the vines. Kerry, looking like Herman Munster with coifed hair, praises his new program and how it is not only giving children the lessons and skills they need to be succesful, but is also providing corporate America the much needed financial boost to be leading competitors in the world.

No longer, Kerry would continue, will we need migrant workers from foreign lands. There is no reason why those jobs can't go to Americans.

I do, everyday. The worse thing a person can do is take themselves, or other people, too seriously.

I didn't think that Kerry was smart enough to come up with this idea and I wouldn't be surprised if he was being mischaracterized here. However, if this is his plan, I applaud him.

We live in the most messed up society in history. The fact that this wonderful opportunity to give our kids the gift of community service is not looked on as a great idea is a sign that too many of our people have lost their morality.

We live in a society where those who gave us life and taught us everything we know are treated as a burden. We live in a society where money is treated as am indication of value. We live in a society where young Einsteins and DiVincis are drugged into normalness. In other words, we live in a very sick society.

I hope our kids have better values than we do and one way to encourage them to have these better values is to insist that they get used to giving back to society at a young age. There is a difference between forcing kids to slave for corporations that couldn't care less about anyone and requiring that as part of their schooling, they learn to give to those in need. Most kids would rather be out in society serving others than wasting time being forced to sit in a classroom re-learning what they already know.

Shame on anyone who would put down this excellent idea and I hope, for the sake of the humanity, their children don't turn out like them.

although I disagree with you that Kerry isn't smart enough to come up with this on his own. After reading many of his plans I find most of them to be very thoughtful and implementable.

If he gets in, I hope we will see more ideas like this.

if Edwards is not elected, Kerry is welcome to borrow it, I'm sure.

While I like Dennis better, I think Edwards is a good man.

The government wil pick up the entire tuition for four years of college, according to Kerry's ideas about it.

No need for scholarships, no need to qualify for grants. Do your two years, and school is free.

This would be an awesome opportunity.

I can't remember the politician or the candidate, but I recall a lot of parents being irked about it.

I think our kids should be encouraged to give to their community. I could see a volunteer program placed in the schools.....and attracting the kids to it.