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AmyStrange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 09:01 AM
Original message
Dean is Perfect

unless you like stale politics...

The guy speaks his mind and thinks on his feet and sometimes makes a gaff. He sometimes speaks off the top of his head and says the wrong thing. Lately, his critics tend to focus on this aspect of his campaign over almost everything else---except maybe the actions of his supporters.

What ties this all together is that Dean is perceived by the anti-Dean camp as a cultist conman. In short, he is a waffling liar.

It's very difficult to defend against this kind of attack, because the assumption is that if you change a position you are a waffling liar.

And that is where my argument lies. If a politician isn't allowed to change a position, than why bother organize protest marches, or send e-mails, letters, or call your Reps in Congress. It's the conundrum that faces Kerry right now. If he were to change his position and stop supporting the war... he's screwed.

The fans of all the other candidates know exactly what I am saying. Is there no one here who has had to explain why their candidate did what he or she did, or have to explain what their candidate meant whenever they spoke in public..

Dean is perfect to me, because no other candidate (except Kucinich) can show where they have changed their positions since Gore bowed out in DEC-2002. If you notice though that most presidential candidates almost always waffle after they get in.

Is Dean really perfect? No he's not, but because it is so easy to ridicule him because of his imperfections, makes me see him as thoughtful. I like thoughtful. I like anyone who is different than the political stalemate we got now where one state can lose it for us. I hate that we have to hate the Greens, because we think they ruined it for us in 2000. I'm willing to bet that a majority of the Greens are woman. Woman have always been at the very forefront of ALL the Activism in this country and all the countries all over the world throughout all of history.

And if I remember correctly, all our Moms were woman.

What does all of that have to do with Dean. Nothing really, but remember one thing about Dean, his wife is a Doctor and I'll bet all of us here have at least once have made the mistake of thinking a Doctor was male...

Think about that the next time you want to call Dr Dean a CONMAN liar,




Dave (AmyStrange.com)

DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
1. mom Dean and apple pie
You know what it was? It was a little cocker spaniel dog, in a crate that he had sent all the way from Texas, black and white, spotted, and our little girl Tricia, the six year old, named it Checkers.

And you know, the kids, like all kids, loved the dog, and I just want to say this, right now, that regardless of what they say about it, we are going to keep it.
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valniel Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
2. Please Remember
That as few as 537 offended voters in Florida might loose you a Presidential election!
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AmyStrange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Or as Greg Palast opinions...

"Who gives a shit. An Introduction"

"You could call this book "What You Didn't Read in the New York timee. For example,

"Five months before the November 2000 election, Governor Jeb Bush of Florida moved to purge 57,700 people from the voter rolls, supposedly criminals not allowed to vote. Most were innocent of crimes, but the majority were guilty of being black."

From: "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" by Greg Palast

An Investigative Reproter Exposes the Truth about Globalization, Corporate Cons and High Finance Fraudsters

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ModerateMiddle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. and it was STILL decided by 537 voters, regardless.

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AmyStrange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. ????

what's your point? Do you think the 537 votes were legit, but all the other discounted votes weren't?

It was decided by the Supreme Court because that is where it officially ended. Or as Kerry says, "Get Over it."

I know what Kerry meant. He meant to quit dividing the Democratic party by what happened in 2000. It's time to embrace them back in and try and work with them to make a stronger party.

That's good politics.




Dave (AmyStrange.com)

DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762
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valniel Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. My point is that
"The guy . . . sometimes makes a gaff. He sometimes speaks off the top of his head and says the wrong thing,” and, too often, offends some voters he will need in November 2004, if he gets the nomination???
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AmyStrange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. Which is just your opinion...

and everyone has one,





Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762
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valniel Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. Mostly a concern
that he will loose. I have gotten over 2000 but will never forget, and its hurt when a democrat says something which turn voters off!!
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AmyStrange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. I can understand where you are coming from...

but never get over 2000. We always need to remember what happened. Atleast that's the way I feel anyway.

It's kind of impossible for any candidate to say anything without offending someone.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. And Don't Forget Arianna's "Pigs At The Trough"
From the back cover:

“With a passion for the truth and an eye for detail, Arianna Huffington reports on the hijacking of democracy. Read it and weep—then head for the barricades. We have work to do.”—Bill Moyers

“Arianna Huffington has always been willing to speak and write with conviction about the world around her. Her sharp wit and thoughtful commentary help put issues on the agenda ignored by conventional thinkers. I’m certain, that with her powerful new book, Arianna Huffington will be stirring the waters for some time to come.”
—Senator John Kerry
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AmyStrange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Welcome to the DU

DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/

Dave (AmyStrange.com)
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
3. Succinct observation. Don't waste time on naysayers and promoters
of other candidates. They are continually conflicted and HAVE to address whatever issue Dean has the other candidates focused on. This assures that they are forever displeased.

Dean '04
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. The best thing Dean has done so far
...is eschew the DLC-approved "handlers" that screwed poor Gore up so badly in 2000.

Oh, I don't agree with him on many things. I do appreciate the fact that he's an MD who knows all the crap the insurance industry has been pulling, and is motivated to stop them from doing it.

In any case, he's certainly opened up the debate to issues beyond what the DLC and GOP (same thing, really) have used as taking points when they're squabbling over the suburban yuppie vote.

It's high time.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
10. I know how I change my positions at times and I know
Edited on Sun Jul-27-03 10:36 AM by zidzi
how I've read ol shit for brains never changes his mind(what mind you ask?) once he makes it up.. that kind of thinking got us into Iraq and the making of the "worst president(sic) in history."

Not that scumface is Any criteria for Anything but I think someone is evolving if they change positions for the better.

And I don't think Dennis is pandering when he changed his position on a Woman's right to choose. People do change their positions.
We are an ever changing, evolving species.

Dr Dean will always be striving for something better. Count on it!

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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Cant count on anything he says
as he has been caught lying or distorting the facts several times now ansd has had to offer public apologies for doing so. Now how many apologies has Dean recoeved from other candidates.

Dean is obviously compulsive in his disregard for facts.

From, his record, the only thing that you can count on with Dean is that he does not always tell te truth. So you cannot know whaty part of his campaign platform is true, and what is false.

After a person lies a certain number of times, everything they say must be suspect.
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AmyStrange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Can't count on anything you say...

"After a person lies a certain number of times, everything they say must be suspect"


after a person has twisted other people's words a ceratin amount of times, I don't trust anything you say,



Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
30. You must have been looking in the mirror when writing you post NJ
Can't trust anything you say about Dean because you've distorted facts for too long.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. Who is this "shit for brains"?
Is it scumface? Or perhaps scumface evolved into shit-for-brains? How can you change my mind if I don't know who you are talking about?
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AmyStrange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Your buddy Bush...
Edited on Sun Jul-27-03 05:52 PM by AmyStrange

or don't you recognize a fellow word twister?
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #20
38. Hey, easy there
AmyStrange. We have many honorable allies in the Kerry camp. We will need them in the future.
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AmyStrange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. sorry...
Edited on Mon Jul-28-03 01:19 PM by AmyStrange

you're right, but Zidzi is one of fave's here and I just reacted without thinking,
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VoteClark Donating Member (775 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
32. You want a candidate that changes his mind on issues?
Edited on Sun Jul-27-03 11:54 PM by VoteClark
I think that is a bad idea. What if we elect him and he changes his mind on abortion, gay rights, the environment, education, and health care?

If he changed them to be more liberal that would be OK I guess. But Dean tends to change his mind to be more conservative. I think that can be bad to be honest.


J4Clark
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AmyStrange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. I want a candidate...

that is willing to change his or her mind when the facts warrant it. What's wrong with that?

By the way, do you think Clark is gonna announce soon? I think he said he would decide by August sometime? He probably will just because with all the free CNN time, this is the perfect tine for him. I don't think he can wait much longer than August though. What do you think?



Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
11. Unless You're A Hitler-Loving Queer
Way to completely butcher the debate! Bravo!

So, the choice is:

a) Dean is perfect.
b) I like stale politics.

Since I don't like stale politics, Dean must be perfect. You later admit this Dean is not perfect, but you let the options remain in this A & B format between Dean and stale politics.

Let's move on.

"What ties this all together is that Dean is perceived by the anti-Dean camp as a cultist conman. In short, he is a waffling liar."

First of all, "in short" means you are summing up what you've already said, which you are not. Secondly, you take one example (whoever the hell said "cultist conman") and make that representative of all criticism against Dean. Then, you claim he is attacked as a "waffling liar," an attack Dean actually uses against the four Congressmen that both voted and criticized the war.

I won't go into the dynamic by which "war" stands in for a variety of ideas behind inspections, disarmament, pre-emption, invasion, unilateralism and regime change. "War" is a loose term that can be used to suggest many things by the person saying it, particularly by falsely aligning others with ideas they do not support.

You then launch into a extremely hazey account of some sort of hatred against Greens, and seem to suggest there is a form of misogynistic undercurrent to this (and possibly Mom-hatred), only to bring it back to Dean's wife and why you support Dean (which is still unclear, save that you like that he makes human error).

All of which I will remember the next time I call Dr. Dean (or Dr. Wife) a CONMAN liar.

My highest recommendations to this index of logical fallacies:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Well analysed, Dr F
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AmyStrange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. hahahahahahahaha

your agreement with Dr F is just so funny.



"GO KUCINICH"


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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. On the mark, Dr.
Harsh, but true.
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AmyStrange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. "harsh but true"

and such a rambling disjointed work of art. I give it a three, because not only does it prove my point (put on your thinking caps before you answer that one), but you can dance to it too and all the anti-Dean puppets are dancing to it nicely,



Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #23
35. You Are A Mad Poet!
I'm not even kidding.

The anti-Dean puppets
Dancing 'round the
rambling, disjointed work of art.

It's quite lovely language, although I'm not sure what it means. You can almost hear Night on Bald Mountain playing in the background as the puppets dance around and around in spastic ecstasy.

For the record, I don't remember ever accusing Dean of lying, nor do I remember opposing the ability to change. I am pro-change. Unfortunately, I don't know what "snips" you are referring to, so I can't address them. If you mean the part where Dean says he voted "no," that was just a goof. Clearly, it was just a misstatement on his part, and not an attempt to fool anyone (at least on the specific vote).

If you mean that he was not forthright in the early part of his campaign about his support for multilateral disarmament, well I stand by that. Does that make him a bad candidate? I don't think so. Does that make his charges of Kerry's "trying to have it both ways" somewhat hypocritical? I'd have to say so. Especially since Kerry had been forthright before anti-war crowds the entire time.

Feel free to disagree with me, but at least disagree with me on specific points so we can have a discussion. We can't discuss anything if you just make vague accusations about my intentions. I'm not Kerry's P.R. man, and I am more than willing to admit if I'm wrong or I don't support Kerry's position.

PS - Thanks for giving me more than one thinking cap! But c'mon - only a three?
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AmyStrange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. Alright I'll give you a four...

but you owe me big time.

You're ok in my book Dr Funk. Probably one of the funniest nonDeanie on this board.

I think that everyone and his brother and sister and dog have argued and debated everything about Dean and it hasn't gotten anyone anywhere. As far as Kerry, you know we've argued his war vote to death ("beat that horse to death") and it hasn't gotten anyone anywhere. Everyone still thinks the way they do.

You know as well as I do that how you look at Dean depends on your bias of him. And no one wants to listen to what someone else considers "facts" and change their bias. I like Dean because I can see in him his ability to do that more than I can see anyone else. Oh there is a lot more I like about him, but it would be nice if everyone could change their minds to instead of all this stubborness. Maybe more people would start liking Kerry more or maybe Kucinich had a better chance then he seems to have right now.

If you want to argue this with me fine, but I've kinda said my piece and you can either agree or not. Either way, I'm gonna hit the hay soon...



Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. Fair Play To Ya!
To letting dead horses lie, and sisters and dogs too...

I think pretty much everyone has made their peace by this point with the candidates. Dean is not a conman and Kerry is not Judas Iscariot, but Bush IS the anti-Christ. A little perspective and we can avoid doing Bush's job for him.
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AmyStrange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. We still love you Dr Funk...
Edited on Sun Jul-27-03 06:00 PM by AmyStrange
Even if you are willing to twist the debate to suit your own purpose and use hazey logic to explain why no one should be allowed to change their mind.

Of course you (you and Nicholas_j) may not recognize the phrase "change their mind", because you keep calling it lying, as if you have never changed your mind. Oh my Goddess, you must be perfect and everything you say (and post) must be perfect!!!

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are not perfect either and that's why your opinion of Dean is no better than mine, because it is just an opinion and no article with snipped Dean quotes from either you or N_j will ever be taken seriously by anyone who can think for themselves (anyone who is willing to change their mind when they know the "REAL" facts and not "TWISTED" opinions posing as facts... like mine!!!),




Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
14. Are we not sheep? No we are Deanies (apologies to Devo)
There is a third possibility. That Dean is lying. That he has people studying the ideas of the young who support him, and saying what they want to hear.

AS governor, his philosophy and ideas of governing were as fresh as day old bread, and Dean ALWAYS refused to give an opinion on ANY idea or legislation that was controversial before it became obvious that he would not be politically harmed by doing so.

Lets look at this from the oldest standard possible. Common sense. Dean has been caught lying or distorting about canddates to the points that he has had to apologize for it. Several times HE had to back down and admit to Kerry's good record regarding Gays at the South Carolina debates.

If he has had to do so three time in public because he has been caught, it is obvious that he has a problem with telling the truth, and likely, his entire campaign is probably fraught with lies.

He seems to be a compulsive liar.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
24. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. They are not excellent timelines
If they come from Dean for America...

It is like expecting accurate ideas about genetics from Mein Kampf...

All you do is repeat information from Deans own web site which is again, like saying that repeating a lie over and over again will suddnly make a lie true.

Dean has been caught lying about other candidates, misrepresenting their stances numerous times. He has lied about the timing of his own decisions while governnor. He has had to apologize to Edwards and Graham for such musrepressentations. He has had to swallow his own crap on national TV in South Carolina and admit that Kerry had and excellent record supporting gays. He got a retraction from the newspapers about what he said in A telehone intervire about Kerry, but the reporter still insists Dean said it.

Dean has lied about being the only candidate who opposed the war. So has Kucinich. And Kucinich nas not publically reversed himself at all where Dean has on a number of occasions said that hewould approve of unilateral attacks on Iraq if the U.N. did not support its own resolutions.

Tho one thing that one can say with absolute certainty about Dean is that he has lied in the past, he has been caught doing so, and therefore is likely to do so again.

He claimed he signed the Civil Unions act when it had only a 35 percent level of popularity. A lie. This was the percentage in December, months before the date of the signing. Three weeks before hand support was up to 44 percent in polls with 8-9 percent margins of error, so that half ofd the public was safe.

Start linking to information that does not come from Deans own campaign machine. His Madison avenue style campaign. He is trying to seel himself and the truth will not do. Dean cannot possibly stand on his own perormance as governor, because it was so conservative and opposed any progressive economic legislation...

Dean states he will repeal the Bush tax cut. What from his record as governor do you base this on. WHen did Dean ever repeal an income tax cut in the past. He rolled back a raise in income taxes that had three tiers that taxed the rich at a higher rate than the poor, rthat was the ONLY thing that got rid of thee 30 million dollar deficit that Dean inhereited. Fortunately, he inherited the plan that succeeded as well. Dena cut income taxes in a way that fovored the rich two additional times.

Add that to Dean having been caught lying and his constatin misrepresentation of other candidates and what is the most logical conclusion. That Dean has suddenly changed, or that he is lying.
Since he is currently still lying, the idea that he may be lying, rather thna having changed is a more likely solution to the question "Who is Howard Dean"

Sorry. I am only one person, posting from one log-in.

If all you can present to prove the veracity of Howard Dean in his intent, is Howard Deans own campaign site, this is a sorry argument. To present information from a man who has already been caught lying repeatedly is too funny to comment on. To use a liars own possible lies in order to prove he is telliung the truth about situations and events is to put it mildly a reductio ad absurdum.

Disproof of a principle or proposition by showing that it leads to a absurdity when followed to its logical conclusion.

Your arguments about Dean when taked to their logical conclusions proven to reduce to an absurdity.

Use as a source to prove the truth, information form a source that has been proven unreliable because it has been found to misrepresent ot lie about the very things it is being used to verify.

Try linking to non-Dean sites to prove our points. You just keep referring to Deans own statements, and Dean is a proven liar.

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RevolutionStartsNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Ah, Nic...
In case anyone missed it, in another thread this weekend Nic posted that "If anyone must bear the most blame for the war, it is Dean".

Really. He said that. Now Dean's not just a liar and a tyrant and a monster, he's actually TO BLAME for the war. The WAR. Really. (I'm sure he'll be happy to explain why, if you care to hear, it involves some hilarious, uh, logic.)

So Dave please don't bother trying to argue "the truth" with him. This is not normal bias he's carrying.
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AmyStrange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. "the truth"
Edited on Sun Jul-27-03 06:52 PM by AmyStrange
He said "DEAN" was to blame for the war!!!

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Thanx for the laugh Americav60.

I have no intention of arguing with him about "the truth" because his logic is fatally flawed and no more dependable than mine or Dr Funk's. We all use biased logic, and the question should be: who are you going to believe, someone who is willing to admit that or someone who will "twist" words and meanings to keep the illusion going that they speak the truth. I will let everyone here decide that one,




Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762
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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #25
43. Please get some help, Nicholas...
this obsession you have with Dean is a sickness all twisted up inside of you. To hate someone so intensely isn't healthy and it's not normal. Nobody is going to change their minds about Dean, one way or the other, so you're wasting your time with all your repetitive posts. Get a life Nicholas. What if Dean wins the nomination? Who are you going to bash then? If Dean is our presidential candidate DU will be supporting him and won't allow anybody to bash him or the Democratic party until after the election. If Dean doesn't win the nomination then you won't have anybody to trash. What are you going to do then?

I hope that being an anti-Dean meanie isn't your whole life Nicholas. Get a hobby like stamp collecting or join a quilting circle. Keep your hands busy doing something constructive. Remember, that busy hands are happy hands.
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DianeK Donating Member (612 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #14
28. no idea where you are from nick'...
i am from vermont, i was born in vermont, what you are saying is based on something other than truth, obviously...i don't label myself generally but if pressed would call myself a social liberal...i can't tell you how many times i, and other vermonters, have been very upset by dean's decisions..trust me, he does not pay much attention to the political atmosphere..not sure just where you think you may be getting your info..but it certainly does not come from first hand knowlege...got to hand it to you though, nice try fur sure...

dean avoiding controversy? does the civil union law mean anything to you? come on, do some research before you try to begin a believable freep.
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AmyStrange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. !!! Welcome to the DU !!!
Edited on Sun Jul-27-03 08:31 PM by AmyStrange

hope you enjoy your stay. Here's a DU slang Dictionary that might come in handy while you're here:

DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/




Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762
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kwolf68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
40. Dean is perfect
If you like more guns, the death penalty and an increase in Star Wars and the militirization (sp) of space then Dean is your man.

But he was opposed to the war (sorta) and for that he is the Liberal’s Godhead. I can’t think of a candidate I’d rather have Dean over, cept for maybe Holy Joe.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Typical rhetoric...
1) More guns? How? Dean supports enforcing current gun legislation and closing the gunshow loophole. Any additional restrictions, he leaves to the states (because states like Montana have different gun control needs than states like New York). How does this result in "more guns"?

2) I'm not 100% with him on the death penalty, but he certainly doesn't have a history of actively seeking pro-death penalty legislation (Vermont has no death penalty).

I don't think Gov. Dean IS the "Liberal's Godhead". I believe he speaks to a wide cross-section of Democrats as a centrist. For me, the major attraction is his pragmatism and willingness to state his position, be it popular or not.

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GEErnst Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
42. Dean, NRA and political leadership

This is as posted on Google groups for the benefit of the gun rights militants. Search http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search for "geernst cato levy". The usually hyperactive militants have had very little to say:


The Cato Institute is representing plaintiffs in Parker et al. v. DC Gov. filed in Feb., 2003. Seach Google for "parker heller palmer ambeau lyon". The NRA filed a parallel suit representing
plaintiffs, Seegars et al. v. AG Ashcroft and DC Gov. Search Google for "seegars haile jordan brown hemphill". The NRA then filed to combine the cases. Cato vigorous opposed the combining. Robert Levy, one of the attorneys for the Parker plaintiffs was on G. Gordon Liddy's program Friday, July 18.

] He laid out his views in the Wash Times, 7/22,
"Battle of the Gun Ban,"
http://www.washingtontimes.com/commentary/20030722-093717-6859r.htm

also,
http://washingtontimes.com/national/20030721-103633-5228r.htm ]

He explained that the NRA introduced Seegars with extraneous issues to divert the court away from the pure Second Amendment challenge. When consolidation failed the NRA instigated Sen. Hatch to introduce legislation to remove the DC law. No law. No challenge. The Potowmack Institute has said many times the NRA knows better than anyone that its constitutional goal is ultimately unachievable. It wants to keep any constitutional challenge out of court, but the NRA has no control over the true believers and purists,
http://www.potowmack.org/lobby.html.
The NRA's real game is to defeat progressive politics. Along the way it scams its members for donations to achieve goals it has no intention to pursue. We don't learn what is really at work in the "rabidly antigun" Washington Post, the NRA's most valuable asset,
http://www.potowmack.org/washpost.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2789-2003Jul16.html?nav=hptop_tb

http://www.nraila.org/NewsCenter.asp?FormMode=Detail&ID=2848

The Potowmack Institute has the motions filed so far and will eventually have them available online. Cato's anarchic arguments go so far as to pervert Federalist Paper No. 46, http://www.potowmack.org/emerappi.html ,
one more time. The purists must think that Federal Judges cannot read the English language. The documents are available from the DC Circuit or through PACER. Total pages so far are almost 100. They can be requested at cost from the Potowmack Institute, potowmack@potowmack.org.

It will be interesting to see what the NRA and the bankrupt Democratic Party do with Howard Dean. The right wing agenda to defeat progressive politics goes so far as to repeal the 40hr work week, http://www.potowmack.org/lopztjf.html. All those working stiff gun owners will eventually have to choose between the consent to be governed and 12 hour days, 6 days a week in sweat shops and coal mines. Dean's appeal for a progressive agenda is national health insurance, the one proposal of the Socialist Party from the early twentieth century still waiting to be imposed. When the Clinton Adm. proposed national health insurance, it was denounced for wanting to impose a "socialist agenda on America". When the Potowmack Institute proposes a national firearms policy,
http://www.potowmack.org/nfp.html ,
roughly resembling the Militia Act of 1792, http://www.potowmack.org/emerappc.html ,
http://www.potowmack.org/milret.html ,
it is denounced for wanting to "impose a socialist agenda on America." Will we see how Dean succeeds in addressing and sorting out the ideological conflict? Vermont elects unabashed socialists to public office and allows conceal carry without a permit.
http://www.bradycampaign.org/press/release.asp?Record=491

] Another perspective:

Democrats Are Playing NRA Roulette
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe- ricker23jul23,1,6562001.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

also,
"Rolling Back the Twentieth Century,"
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030512&s=greider
Glover Norquist, the very personification of political
cynicism, now runs the NRA. The agenda is political not gun
rights.
http://www.potowmack.org/rightmov.html

Los Angeles Times; opinion
23 July 2003
by Robert A. Ricker

Robert A. Ricker is a lawyer and lobbyist who has
represented such groups as the National Rifle Assn.
and the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep
and Bear Arms.

Much has been made of the decision by some Senate
Democrats to abandon their political base and
support legislation backed by the National Rifle
Assn. to shield gun makers from lawsuits by crime
victims.

... ]

If Parker proceeds the Potowmac Institute will file an amicus brief which will repeat and update our arguments in Emerson. Neither the Fifth Circuit in Emerson,
http://www.potowmack.org/emeramic.html ,
nor the Ninth in Silveira,
http://www.potowmack.org/silveira.html ,
have addressed the fundamental relationship between citizen and state and the difference between civil society and the State of Nature. We still do not know how many "Patrons of Anarchy" are under oath of public office,
http://www.potowmack.org/2ndtreat.html#94 .

The NRA will not argue for a constitutional right. The Cato Institute does not want amicus briefs filed, at least at the district court level, to corrupt and confuse its purist arguments. That should not be a discouragement. Now is your chance. File your briefs. We want the court to be well informed.

GEErnst
http://www.potowmack.org/index.html

The long reach of the internet:
http://stonerwitch.net/index.php
go to July 14. Some people are getting their minds openned.


Pro-Gun Groups Split on Tactics; Cato Institute, NRA Quarrel Over Challenges to D.C. Law
Washington Post
21 July 2003
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20215-2003Jul20.html?nav=hptoc_m

Gunning For D.C.
Washington Post; Editorial
21 July 2003
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20788-2003Jul20.html

Parker et al. v. DC Gov., February 10, 2003
http://www.cato.org/pubs/legalbriefs/gunsuit.pdf

Seegars et al. v. Ashcroft and DC Gov.,
http://www.nraila.org/media/pdfs/dc_case.pdf




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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
44. Yet more positive dean !
Go howard!
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