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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 01:45 PM
Original message
Touting his own record, Kerry takes new tack against Bush, Dean
Casting himself as the only Democrat with the national security expertise to beat a wartime incumbent president, Senator John F. Kerry unveiled a new political message last night accusing President Bush of giving Americans "a raw deal," and implicitly deriding his front-running rival, Howard Dean, as the candidate of "anger" and "slogans."

Kerry, speaking before 8,000 Iowa Democrats likely to vote in the first caucuses on Jan. 19, did not assail Dean by name. But he cast the former Vermont governor as a protest candidate whose antiwar message did not reflect the vision of Kerry's Democratic heroes, presidents Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy, and Clinton.

"They offered hope and leadership and vision, and that's what we need to offer to the country next year," Kerry said last night at the annual Jefferson-Jackson party dinner. "We need to offer answers, not just anger. We need to offer solutions, not just slogans. So Iowa, don't just send them a message next January -- send them a president. We need somebody who can do the job."

<snip>

Kerry, a decorated Vietnam War veteran, argued that the Iraq war was the result of Bush's inexperience in foreign affairs and suggested that Dean, with no background in Washington or world affairs, could not credibly challenge Bush's stewardship.

"If George Bush wants to make national security the issue of this campaign, then I have three words for him that I know he'll understand: Bring it on," Kerry said.

<snip>

Earlier, after playing hockey with firefighters who have endorsed him, Kerry argued that he, not Dean, offered the best hope to Democrats of beating Bush.

"Every poll shows it -- I do better than Howard Dean against George Bush," Kerry said. "It's time for us to get serious in this party -- pick somebody who can win and take back the White House, and I'm that person."
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/11/16/touting_his_own_record_kerry_takes_new_tack_against_bush_dean


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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. *whoops*
Edited on Sun Nov-16-03 02:05 PM by RUMMYisFROSTED


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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. Well, his foreign policy expertise blinded him to the con game Bush
played him with over the IWR.

And not only was his 2002 IWR vote wrong, so was his 1991 IWR vote, when he voted to opposed stopping Saddam from invading Kuwait.

We don't need that kind of foreign policy experience in the White House.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. Because Howard said so
Yeah, that's how I make up my mind. Listen to what a candidate says and then agree with him.

The 1991 vote was right. That was more of a bullshit war than this one. At least this time we actually KNEW Saddam had been much closer to developing a nuclear weapon than we thought and wouldn't cooperate with the inspections process. There was at least real reason to be worried about him. 1991 was oil and nothing but oil. It's ridiculous people will get all in a tizz about the 2003 war for oil, but turn around and support the 1991 war for oil, just because Dean says so.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. 1991 was bs, too.
But your post was bigger bs.

Hussein was at least a threat to the region in 1991.

At least he had WMDs in 1991.

At least he'd invaded another country in 1991.

This war didn't even have a fig leaf.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. What???
We had no idea the extent of Saddam's WMD in 1991. There wasn't any mention of any of that as a cause for that war. It was a war to get Iraq out of Kuwait so we could have the oil. Everybody knew we wouldn't have given a shit about it if it weren't for the oil.

It's what we discovered in the last 12 years that made Saddam a real threat this time. Doesn't mean he was an imminent threat, but certainly we needed to know what was happening in Iraq and the entire world agreed with that. Dean, Clark, France, Germany, the entire world.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #22
47. Oh, so he was a bigger threat AFTER he'd gotten rid of all his
WMDs and 3/4 of his conventional weapons?

Is that how things work in Kerryworld?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #47
54. How do you know that?
Because inspectors got into Iraq, that's how. And how would that have happened with out the 'war vote'? It wouldn't have. It was a good thing to get inspectors in Iraq and I'm glad our Congressmen supported that effort. Bush didn't need to execute a war after that happened, but he did it anyway. Nobody authorized him to execute an unnecessary war. The resolution said to support UN resolutions OR protect U.S. security. A war wasn't necessary to do either of those things and the Commander in Chief shouldn't have executed a war without cause. That's his job, to decide when and how military troops are deployed within the intent of Congress.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #54
100. Exactly correct. (nt).
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #100
128. Exactly doublespeak.
Orwell would be proud of this spin.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
40. Uh, 'scuze me.
Saddam's Iraq invaded a sovereign nation and American ally in 1991. That's not "just about oil." The horseshit about Saddam being the new Hitler in 2002 was just that - horseshit. But it was true in 1991. He was trying to take over the region, piece by piece, just like Hitler did. Desert Storm stopped him. That's why pretty much the whole world was on our side in that one.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. maybe Kerry knew who April Glasspie was and what she did
maybe Kerry knew a BFEE sponsored enterprise when he saw one.
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #44
92. So why didn't
he recognize that same BFEE sponsored enterprise in 2002? :shrug:
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #92
111. Because this one actually had benefits to America's security
that is, if it was done without smashing the country to all hell.
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #111
114. I hope you're joking
Taking out a secular gov't (tho albeit flawed) in the Middle East and creating an environment for it to be replaced with an extremist pseudo-Islamist state? Yep, that benefits my security. :eyes:

And anyone who thought for even a minute that Shrub would not act the way he has in Iraq needs to leave LaLa Land and come into the world of reality. Or else that person doesn't deserve to be the president.

You'd be amazed at the support Kerry would have had if he'd voted the right way, or the support he would have today if he admitted that his vote was f**ked up.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #114
127. Hindsight is twenty-twenty. (nt)
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WyLoochka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #114
135. I think you are likely right here
Dean would not have had as much of a chance to get off the ground had Kerry NOT chickened out and voted to open the door to the neo con war for a century plan.

I think, had he voted the right way, against the neo con PNACer plan, that, at this point in time, he would have had a good shot at being waaaayyy out in front of everyone else.

Dean is not one bit responsible for the most wrong-headed, hypocritical vote Kerry made in his otherwise long, illustrious career.

For three decades, I had thought, "I'm going to vote for that guy with whole hearted support if he ever runs for Prez." But he copped out on the big one.

Although very disappointed, as the campaign began, I looked for and waited for reasons to return to the level of commitment to supporting Kerry that I had held for decades, but sadly, his campaign has sucked to date. He's floundered, been taken off guard, disastrously relied upon DLC schmucks for advice and has demonstrated no capability at all to get any kind of message out that could excite people to support him.

I am really sad about all of this for Kerry personally, but I care too much about taking my country back to let sentimentality rule my vote. It has been Dean who has said and done the things I hoped Kerry could do.

If the campaign proceeds as it has to date, it will be Dean who gets my enthusiastic support and vote in the 2/3/04 AZ primary. Although, I will always regret for Kerry that it was he himself who hung the stinking albatross around his own neck. It's so sad, really.


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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #114
139. Cut off your nose to spite your face
It's simply amazing. I've pointed to comments like yours and I get told they don't exist. Nobody says Kerry would really make the best President or they like Kerry best, but...

It's self-destructive to punish him for this vote if you think he'd be the best President. And not just the best President in 2005, but the best one we've had in generations. And to opt for Howard Dean instead? When he supported Biden-Lugar? When he said Saddam had weapons? When he said we need to give him 30-60 days and then invade unilaterally if necessary? Or Clark, who also said Saddam had weapons and needed to disarm, and has made unclear statements about that vote as well. Even Kucinich, inspections should continue. People say that around here all the time, inspections should have continued. Well no shit, Kerry said the same thing at the time and has repeatedly said it since then. A strong UN with a strong inspections process would have made the US safer, more than one country has WMD and there needs to be a procedure in place to take care of it. That's what Kerry voted for. Bush screwed that up too.

Bush chose the time to deploy troops. It's the President's decision to choose that time, OR NOT. An Authorization for military action IS NOT a command. Even a Declaration of War does not demand the President invade a country, it's expected diplomacy will be allowed to work if at all possible. That vote could have set the UN on the right track in creating a strong inspections unit to get a handle on weapons proliferation. Bush not only screwed up Iraq, he delayed the progress on weapons proliferation that we would have had if he'd handled this whole thing corrrectly. And that is absolutely a US security interest and you ought to be pissed about that as well. At Bush. Most Democratic Senators who voted for the IWR were trying to get the right thing done.



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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #139
140. I didn't say that
You're reading your own assessment of the candidates' qualifications into my words. I NEVER said that I thought Kerry was the best for the job, or better than the one I am supporting. In fact, although Kerry is my #2 choice, I think that his caving to Shrub shows a reason why he would NOT be the best of this field.

Without his caving (which is more than just a single vote, btw), Kerry may have been the best qualified. But someone who simply rolled over and played dead for this administration has serious problems with leadership.

Kerry is a fine man and a fine liberal Senator. He just forgot to keep acting that way after the 2000 election. Definitely a negative for him, even if not fatal.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #140
141. But he didn't
I know that and it's just sad so many people can't see the history behind this war vote and the need to do more about terrorism in general. Democrats are being beat up for the Patriot Act and Homeland Security, even though aspects of those bills were things Democrats wanted under Clinton. They're being beat up over NCLB, even though that was a Kennedy bill and would have done alot for education if it had been funded. They're being beat up over tax cuts that they didn't even vote for. They're being beat up for fighting to get the 10% bracket and child tax credit so working families would at least have something. It's half lies and half misrepresentation and people just don't bother to read enough of the real history behind these decisions to find out the truth. This is the most pathetic election in my lifetime.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. oh get serious
If Kuwait hadn't had the oil, we wouldn't have cared about a 'sovereign nation' being invaded. This is no secret, the guys who fought that war have said the same thing time and again. This is pure fantasy for Democrats to be spouting this line when almost all of us were totally against that war at the time.

But after Saddam invades that nation and we discover massive bio/chem weapons and an advanced nuclear program, and he refuses to cooperate with disarmament for 12 years, and he starves and kills his people in the north and south, after all of that; well that's not enough to even consider holding him accountable.

But if you really want to go back and justify 1991, if Saddam was creating a Hitler like threat to the region, then it was certanly justifiable to hold him to the cease fire agreements from that war. I mean, we wouldn't want have let Hitler continue to rule Germany unfettered.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #45
98. What ceasefire agreements did he not obey?
Weren't weapons inspectors in his country? Weren't they looking everywhere they wanted? Didn't they tell us that they needed more time and that we should just be patient?

The U.N. charter prohibits aggression. It doesn't give the U.S. or any other country carte blanche to interfere in the internal governance of nations with poor human rights records.

And there are no massive biochem weapons and there is no advanced nuclear program. There are experts (college professors and such) capable of being involved in such a program and facilities and equipment (trucks and empty barrels) that might be used in such a program, but that's all the "proof" we've found so far, trump it up though they tried to do.

And as far as Saddam killing his people, we're talking about casualties from the Gulf War and Desert Storm and various armed uprisings. We don't invade Russia and Mexico when they put down armed uprisings - I think even the U.S. put down an armed uprising of its own around 1860 or so. Does that make Abraham Lincoln a murderous despot?

We can't allow wars of conquest to stand, oil or no oil. But that doesn't give us the right to invade eleven years later because of imaginary WMDs and commonplace human rights violations.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #98
134. Where've you been?
What do people read around here? Inspectors were in the country? Looking everywhere they wanted? No, they weren't. Where do you get this crazy idea? I've seen this posted way too many times to continue letting it pass.

There weren't experts in every single agency around the world expressing concern about Saddam's rebuilding weapons? They didn't uncover a secret nuclear program in the mid-nineties? Again, what do you read?

This is WHY they voted on the IWR, so Bush would have the authority to go to war if the inspectors weren't allowed back in or if the inspectors found real evidence of WMD and the UN didn't do anything about it. That was the whole point. It doesn't mean Bush HAS to go to war, but it is the President's job to decide exactly when military troops are deployed and to execute that deployment. That's what Commander in Chief means. He completely and totally abused his power and failed to even execute his war in a way that would create safety for the troops and the Iraqis.

And no, Saddam hadn't lived up to the ceasefire agreement in 1991. If people want to support Dean's advocacy of that war, then it's only logical that we shouldn't abandon the goals of that war or ignore it when Iraq doesn't live up to the ceasefire agreement that ended that war. And please don't try to justify Saddam's slaughtering thousands of people with anything moral, it's just not becoming.


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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #134
136. We may be talking about different time periods.
I'm talking about after the IWR but before the invasion.

You're not saying that the invasion was justified, are you?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #136
138. Why?
What's that got to do with the vote?
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #138
142. Clearly we are talking about different things.
You're talking about the IWR vote and I thought you were talking about the invasion. Would you agree that the invasion was NOT justified?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #142
143. Of course
But what does inspections or Bush's decision to invade have to do with anything? That's my whole point. Alot of people mix up all of the events and use wrong information as a basis to attack. Gephardt, Kerry, Lieberman and Edwards each have very different perspectives on Iraq and it isn't right to just lump them all together.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #40
57. Kuwait wasn't an ally of ours prior to the 1991 invasion
If anyone was our ally, it was Iraq.

Kuwait wasn't even a friend of ours - they consistantly voted against our interests at the UN. When Hussien asked if he could invade Kuwait, we suckered him in by giving him a green light. Poppy needed a war - they're so good for ratings. But he didn't topple the Hussien regime - we still needed them to counter Iran.

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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #57
99. We have allies who vote against us in the U.N. all the time.
Kuwait was officially an ally. Also, the Glaspie incident was a screwup, not a conspiracy. It certainly didn't justify the invasion of Kuwait.

And the reason we didn't topple Hussein was because we assembled an international coalition on the promise that we would remove Iraq from Kuwait without interfering in Iraq's governance. This business of the U.S. deciding which foreign governments are and are not legitimate, and tossing out the illegitimate ones as we see fit, understandably makes the rest of the world (particularly the Arab world) nervous.

Desert Storm was the right thing done the right way, totally in contrast to the illegal, illegitimate, and FUBAR invasion of Iraq in 2003.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #99
133. Kuwait was not "officially" an ally of the United States before 1990
Although the Gulf Cooperation Council, formed in 1981, expected that the U.S. would intervene if they were attacked, none of these countries (Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qutar, UAE, Oman) had a written, official defense agreement with the U.S. And what's ironic is that the GCC formed because they were mostly worried about Iran, since our main ally in the region until 1988 was Iraq.

The Persian Gulf Resolution passed by only 4 votes in 1991, with most Democrats opposing it. Public opposition to the first Gulf war was also high. The BFEE used many of the same tactics to "sell" that war as they did the more recent one. A quick refresher:

http://www.prwatch.org/books/tsigfy10.html

Instead of justifying Desert Storm, we should ask ourself if either of these conflicts would have taken place without a Bush in the White House.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #133
137. A written defense agreement isn't required to be an ally.
And Saddam Hussein invaded a sovereign nation solely for reasons of conquest. We couldn't let that stand, and neither could the U.N. At the time, Iraq had the world's fourth largest military. Count it out on your fingers (U.S. - Russia - China - Iraq). How many countries in that region would it have been okay for him to conquer before the U.S. and the U.N. should have stepped in?
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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
27. That is my biggest problem with him
and the other congressional candidates. How they couldn't see through this guy is beyond me. I have a hard time trusting their judgement. We see him give his speeches and smirk through the filter of a television set and many of us could see through him. Why couldn't Kerry, Edwards, and Gep?
If any of them is the nominee, I'll forgive it for the general, but it will nag at me.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
3. I thought that quote about taking it to Bush on national security
and "Bring it on." would get more attention than it did.

Guess the media didn't want the public to hear that one.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Uhm, it's printed in a large newspaper.
Doesn't look like "they're" hiding anything.

:shrug: Is it just me?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. The news networks didn't play it for the soundbite.
When it actually fits perfectly as a soundbite against Bush.

Do you miss my obvious meanings on purpose?
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. There are many forms of media, blm.
Dean farted last week, a perfect commentary on the Bush administration. Yet the networks failed to use it as a soundbite. Go figure.

Stop complaining that Kerry is being ignored. Get more donations. Draw larger crowds. Move upward in the polling. Simple. (btw, Kerry gets more coverage than most of the candidates)
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
35. YEAH...SURE he does. But it goes like this
media) Dean. Dean. Dean....blah blah....Mr. Kerry, what do you think about Mr. Dean?
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. I hear ya.
It goes to my previous point. Draw large crowds. Revolutionize fundraising(or at least raise the most). Lead in the polls. Creatively attack Chimp(that was a good example that Kerry just did). AND forge a compelling identity. Then it would be:

Kerry. Kerry. Kerry....blah blah....Mr. Dean, what so you think of Mr. Kerry?


I understand your frustration, though. Campaigns are weird things. Try not to be so bitter about it, though. I know it sucks, but getting rid of Bush is going to be the most important thing for your child in the end.

Smile, damnit!

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babzilla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. guess not
http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22774757.html
"If George Bush wants to make national security an issue in this campaign, I have three words for him: Bring it on. Bring it on," Kerry said.


http://msnbc.com/news/994031.asp?cp1=1
Kerry contended that Bush “has shown that he does not have the experience to be commander-in-chief.”
He added, “If George Bush wants to make national security the issue in this campaign, I have three words for him that I know he will understand: Bring it on!” — a jibe at Bush for taunting Iraqi terrorists two months ago.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/11/16/touting_his_own_record_kerry_takes_new_tack_against_bush_dean/
"If George Bush wants to make national security the issue of this campaign, then I have three words for him that I know he'll understand: Bring it on," Kerry said.


not much attention to that line at all.

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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Ignore those links, babzilla.
It doesn't fit the theory. It's like Cheney and national intelligence: If the facts don't fit the theory, ignore them.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
34. News networks didn't run it.
How many people search on the internet for quotes?
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babzilla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. what soundbytes did they use?
I haven't watched any TV news today. Did the news networks show any soundbytes from the dinner? If so which ones?

I don't know how many people search on the internet for quotes. I searched for articles on the Jefferson Jackson dinner, three are linked in my post. The NY Times is the only one I found written after the dinner that didn't mention Kerry's bring it on quote.
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
23. The Kerry campaign: Things are not happening like we expected.
This is a great summation of the entire Kerry campaign. THEY HAVEN'T A CLUE. Who in the hell would think shooting pheasants, riding a motor bike onto a talk show, or orchestrating 'Bring it on'!! would have ANY EFFECT WHATSOEVER on Kerry's chances. Answer: NOBODY.

Who came up with the 'Bring it on!!' idea?? Sounds like something hatched by a jr. high cheerleader squad after a glue sniffing adventure.

Kerry's worst enemy is Kerry.

Dean '04...
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Your obsession with Kerry speak volumes.
Edited on Sun Nov-16-03 06:45 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
Dean and his supporters know Kerry is the only real threat Dean faces.

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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Dean supporters are focused on Bush. We'll 'play the game' with Gep
& Kerry but we both know the outcome, don't we??

Dean '04...
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. If you weren't worried about Kerry you wouldn't be calling him names
in post after post.

:eyes:

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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #28
65. You are not one to accuse others about obsessions
eom
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. Dean is the frontrunner. I'm not making a pretense
that he doesn't matter.


All I'm doing is pointing out that some continuously post insults about Kerry, and calls him names, and at the same time, say, 'his campaign is over' and 'he already lost'

well, if his campaign were over they wouldn't be doing that. lol



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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #68
76. Dean is the frontrunner
theres a good reason to attack him... Kinda takes the wind out of your complaints.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #76
85. I don't understand. You just repeated my point.
Are you agreeing with me? It seems so unlikely I wanted to check.

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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. Kerry attacks Bush, but he signed on to his war
I wonder when Kerry is ever going to address this in full? His pro-IWR vote is probably the biggest albatross hanging around his neck. Does he think that his knee-jerk attacks against Dean will serve as effective distractions from this nettlesome issue for him?


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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Well, do you think that
Edited on Sun Nov-16-03 03:02 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
knee-jerk attacks against Kerry will serve as effective distractions from Dean's Vermont record and lack of ideas?

The only way Dean can get nominated is by running away from his record and policies and making everything about the one issue he has going for him, the fact that he didn't vote on the Iraq resolution.

Take for example, Dean's 'plan' for Iraq. It's so out of date that Dean is still calling for transformation of the Oil-for-Food program into an Oil-for-Recovery program - excepted the Oil-for-Food program is already scheduled to be terminated in less than a week.

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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. Please tell us where Kerry's ideas differ from Dean's other than the
"I'll keep the middle class" (with kids) tax "cut"?

And Dean will embrace his centrist record during the general election -- to great effect.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Well I already pointed out one area where Dean's Iraq plan falls short.
Another is Dean's idea to use NATO troops. That makes absolutely no sense. Kerry's plan rightfully speaks of a UN-sanctioned force.

And why does Dean's plan call for authority to pass to an unnamed 'international body'? Does Dean have a problem working with the UN? Kerry says we should transfer civil authority immediately to the UN, and then as quickly as possible to the Iraqis.

And right on down the line, with the environment, labor, Kerry doesn't just have slogans and position papers, he has a record consistent with his rhetoric. The real deal.

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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #21
49. There are no real differences here. None.
Kerry is better at nuance.

Dean is better at making clear distinctions.

Dean is a better candidate, and the policy differences between Dean and Kerry are all nuances. The problem is that Kerry is so fucking nuanced that it will seem that the huge policy differences between Kerry & Bush are also just nuances, in which case people will feel free to vote for the frat boy they know over the nuanced patrician intellectual they can't relate to.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. Pretending there are no differences is just lame.
Come on you can do better than that.

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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. I simply don't see any differences that matter to me. None.
Except that Kerry the candidate sucks. And Kerry's campaign sucks. And Kerry's continued defense of his pro-Iraq War vote sucks.

I didn't get a tax break, and if I did, I'd happily return it to fight record deficits and get universal healthcare.

I don't care who replaces our troops in Iraq. I just want to stop unilateral US imperialism.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. What an absolutely idiotic statement.
Or maybe short-sighted would be a better description of your comments. Do you really believe that only the things that directly affect you matter?

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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #53
56. What I believe is that you've got nothing. (nt)
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #56
59. You are AFRAID to talk policy.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #63
69. Dean has no policy in these areas. If he does, tell us about it
if you are able.

Are you able to articulate Dean's manufacturing policy? Or provide a link to it at the very least?

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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #69
74. Link me to Kerry's plan. I'd love to read it. Here's Deans:
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. A perfect example of my point.
You provide a 12 page pdf from Dean and imply that his manufacturing policy is included. Well this is all I can find in there about Dean's plans to get the manufacturing sector of our economy going again:

He will create strategies to encourage the development of new industries in areas hardest hit by manufacturing job losses, and provide education, training and health care portability for displaced workers to help them prepare for these new jobs.
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/Policy_-_Economy_-_Reclaiming_the_American_Dream.pdf?docID=1859


What strategies? What is the plan?



Here is what a plan to revive manufacturing looks like:

JOHN KERRY’S PLAN TO REVIVE THE MANUFACTURING SECTOR

(1) TAX BREAKS TO ENCOURAGE MANUFACTURERS TO STAY IN THE U.S. AND TO CREATE NEW JOBS.
The Bush Administration has done nothing to end incentives that encourage manufacturers to move their jobs overseas. John Kerry believes that we should not only get rid of these incentives, but that we should give new tax breaks to companies that stay in the U.S. and create new jobs. He would:

• Stop Incentives to Move American Jobs Abroad. John Kerry will save jobs by ending the unpatriotic practice of U.S. corporations moving jobs offshore (known as inversions) to avoid paying their fair share of taxes. He also believes that these inverters should not get government contracts or any other perks or incentives from the government.

• Give Tax Breaks to Manufacturers in America. John Kerry supports efforts to promote manufacturing and provide incentives to keep manufacturing in the U.S. That’s why he supports the Crane-Rangel-Hollings legislation, which provides a corporate rate reduction to manufacturers who produce goods in the U.S.

• A New Manufacturing Jobs Credit.John Kerry has proposed a new jobs tax credit to encourage manufacturing companies to stay and expand in America. When a manufacturing company creates jobs above their 12 month employment average, the payroll taxes of the new employees will be refunded for two years.


(2) STRONG ENFORCEABLE TRADE THAT WORKS FOR AMERICA. The Bush Administration has not cracked down on countries that are avoiding trade laws or manipulating currency. President Bush has supported cutting funds for trade enforcement, despite the fact that we need more enforcement of trade laws to stop the manufacturing job drain. Some Democrats pretend that we can close our doors to the global economy. John Kerry believes we need strong leadership to assure that the global economy works for America.

• Assure Trading Partners Play by the Rules. Some nations have consistently violated agreements by the World Trade Organization. They have taken unfair actions to block U.S auto companies from selling in their markets. Many products from China are counterfeit or don’t meet industry standards. While this Administration has not used the remedies available under the World Trade Organization to crack down on these violations and help U.S industries, John Kerry would.

• Stop Countries from Manipulating Currency.China, Japan and other nations have purposely kept their currency undervalued relative to the U.S. dollar to promote exports in the United States and undermine U.S. products abroad. John Kerry believes we must use the full force of the World Trade Organization to take on countries that are manipulating their currency to undermine U.S. exports.

• Enforce and Strengthen Intellectual Property Protections. In the 21st economy, the U.S. relies more heavily on international partnerships and joint ventures. Intellectual property protections are essential in this environment so that companies can share their technology without losing control of it.

• Break Down Barriers in Key Export Markets. This Administration has done little to open key export markets in places like Japan and Korea. Some countries use non-tariff barriers, such as making it difficult to access finance or have obscure investment requirements, to undermine U.S. exports. For example, auto exports to Japan are still essentially blocked by complicated rules. John Kerry would use all the available tools, including Section 301 of the 1974 Trade Act, WTO remedies, and diplomatic measures to open these markets.

• Review Existing Trade Agreements. John Kerry will also order an immediate 120 day review of all existing trade agreements to ensure that our trade partners are living up to their labor and environment obligations and that trade agreements are enforceable and are balanced for America’s workers. He will consider necessary steps if they are not. And John Kerry will not sign any new trade agreements until the review is complete and its recommendations put in place. He believes all new trade agreements must have strong labor and environmental standards.

(3) ASSURE A STRONG MANUFACTURING SECTOR FOR THE FUTURE. John Kerry believes we must keep manufacturing strong, as it is one of our most productive sectors and it is critical to the U.S. economy. In fact, every $1.00 in final demand for manufacturing products creates $2.43 in output, including demand for intermediate goods and services in other sectors.

• Tax Incentives and Subsidies to Develop Energy Efficient Products: Kerry will create hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs by investing in the new energy opportunities of the future. Kerry has a plan to provide tax credits and subsidies to manufacturers to develop the next generation of automobiles and new energy efficient appliances for homes and businesses.

• Double the Manufacturing Extension Partnership (MEP). We know that the MEP helps make American manufacturers competitive. Yet this Administration has proposed to cut it nearly 90 percent. John Kerry believes we should invest in things that work, and has proposed to double funding for the MEP. John Kerry would also create Manufacturing Development Centers to help improve manufacturing. Finally, he would make it easier for small manufacturers to get loans and encourage investment by getting rid of capital gains tax for equity investments in small businesses.


• Assure Better Training and Retraining Programs for Manufacturing Workers. To keep the manufacturing sector healthy and strong, America needs a workforce with cutting edge skills, training, and knowledge. Kerry would: (1) in order to assure that are sufficient numbers of highly skilled workers, Kerry supports providing assistance for workers in declining industries to upgrade or develop necessary skills, and providing community-based grants to help train or retrain workers; (2) assure adequate Trade Adjustment Assistance to help workers transition; (3) encourage students studying engineering, computers, and other high-tech fields to work in the manufacturing sector by repaying a portion of student loans if they do; and (4) encourage better math and science instruction in our schools to assure more students have the skills to help the manufacturing sector grow.

(4) RELIEF FOR MANUFACTURERS THAT PROVIDE QUALITY HEALTH CARE AND RETIREMENT. Simply having employers absorb rising health care costs puts U.S. manufacturers at an impossible competitive disadvantage with overseas producers. General Motors estimated that as much as $1200 of each car sold goes towards health care costs and often labor negotiations are consumed by just maintaining health care coverage. John Kerry’s health care plan takes on the cost of health care by:

• Supporting a Medicare Prescription Drug Benefit That Rewards Retiree Coverage. Prescription drugs coverage consumes about 40% to 60% of the cost of retiree coverage. But under the drug benefit plan before Congress, employer coverage would not count towards the expenditures needed to reach the catastrophic cap. CBO has estimated that will cause about one-third of beneficiaries who would otherwise have coverage to lose it. John Kerry believes we need a quality affordable prescription drug benefit to relieve employers and employees from high drug costs by counting retiree coverage toward any cost-sharing.

• Controlling the Cost of Health Care - Saving Workers Up to $1,000 on Health Care.John Kerry believes that we need to stop the spiraling cost of health care to assure our employers can stay competitive in the global economy and so our families can afford health care. Four-tenths of one percent of claims accounted for nearly 20 percent of expenses private insurers. John Kerry has proposed a new 'premium rebate' pool that will give companies and insurers that guarantee a pass-through of the savings to their workers through reduced premiums, a reimbursement for 75 percent of catastrophic costs above $50,000. This would save up to $1000 for a family premium.

• Cutting Greed to Bring Down Rx Prices. Pharmacy benefit managers (PBMs) process hundreds of millions of pharmaceutical claims per year, giving them a great deal of leverage in the market. They often get financial rebates or other savings they do not pass on to consumers. John Kerry’s plan would require transparency rules for PBMs that do business with the Federal government to clearly show what savings they are receiving from the industry and from bulk purchasing.

• Don’t Penalize Manufacturers With Pension Laws. Many manufacturers provide their employees with defined benefit pension plans – which assures workers dependable predictable income at retirement. However, under current law, manufacturers are required to set aside unrealistically high reserves to meet future obligations to their workers. These are resources that manufacturers could use to invest in new technologies, new plants, and hiring or advanced training for workers. John Kerry supports basing the law on a realistic long-term rate.
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2003_1021.html
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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #77
101. what about this?
Governor Dean will begin his
work to improve the economy by proposing
a two- year, $100 billion Fund
to Restore America, designed to add
more than one million new jobs to the
economy. The Fund will benefit the
economy in both the short and long
term.
The Fund will be distributed to
states and localities to assist communities
that have been worst hit by the
economic downturn. Some of the
money will be used to improve homeland
security by hiring and training
first responders, public health personnel
and security providers for critical
installations and ports, and for purchasing
new and improved equipment.
Other funds will be awarded to states
and cities to build new or to renovate
and repair their failing infrastructure,
including schools, roads, rail, water,
wastewater, electrical and telecommunications
systems.
The Fund will place a special
emphasis on helping disadvantaged
and minority communities, which have
been hard hit by the downturn and
have recovered the least. At the beginning
of the Bush administration, the
unemployment rate among African-
Americans was 8.2 per cent. In September
of this year, the rate had
climbed to 11.2 per cent. One out of
three young African-Americans in the
work force is unemployed. Four hundred
thousand more African-Americans
of all ages are without jobs than
the day President Bush took office.
The Latino community is also carrying
more than its share of the economic
failures of this administration, with an
unemployment rate of 7.5 per cent —
nearly 30 per cent higher than January
20, 2001.
More Help
for States and
Communities
The downturn in the economy
plus the jobless recovery has placed an
enormous burden on the budgets and
resources of states and cities. As a
result, services have been curtailed,
workers have been laid off and state
and local taxes have soared. The plight
of the states creates a continuing,
major drag on the national economy.
Economists generally agree that rapid
action to relieve the fiscal burdens on
the states would be one of the most
effective ways to stimulate the economy
and create new jobs. Governor
Dean’s economic plan will offer both
immediate help and a long-term commitment
to helping the states in two
specific areas: education and homeland
security.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #101
103. Sounds good as far as it goes. I'd like to hear more details about how
the money is to be allocated, though. Dean proposes to spend $100 billion:

The Fund will be distributed to states and localities to assist communities that have been worst hit by the economic downturn. Some of the money will be used to improve homeland security by hiring and training first responders, public health personnel and security providers for critical installations and ports, and for purchasing new and improved equipment.
Other funds will be awarded to states and cities to build new or to renovate and repair their failing infrastructure, including schools, roads, rail, water, wastewater, electrical and telecommunications systems.


They are noble goals, but the 'idea' of throwing money at them is nothing new. And I'm glad that we now have both Kerry and Dean's plan together in this thread so undecided voters can look at them and decide which one has more merit, which is more specific, which is more implementable, which has more new ideas, which has more good ideas.



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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #103
105. 2 things
just about any program can be described as "Throwing money" at the problem. Homeland security and infastructure are VALID choices at this point in time.

I'd also like to point out that much to your chagrin I'm sure... people don't just look at policy in choosing a President. Presidents have limited ability to implement policy. Thats how our founding fathers set it up. A President is MUCH MORE than a policy maker. A President is a Leader, a Diplomat, and an Administrator as well.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #105
107. Look at Kerry's plan, and look at Dean's plan.
One is a series of specific proposals to revive the manufacturing sector. The other is one specific proposal - to fund a $100 billion fund.

Beyond that, all it says is:
The Fund will be distributed to states and localities to assist communities that have been worst hit by the economic downturn. Some of the money will be used to improve homeland security by hiring and training first responders, public health personnel and security providers for critical installations and ports, and for purchasing new and improved equipment.
Other funds will be awarded to states and cities to build new or to renovate and repair their failing infrastructure, including schools, roads, rail, water, wastewater, electrical and telecommunications systems.


You don't like my characterization - 'throwing money at' these problems. Fine -- characterize it some other way. But the fact remains that all Dean is proposing here is to spend money.

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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #107
109. He is proposing to spend money
on specific areas in order to help our economy.

money will be used to improve homeland
security by hiring and training
first responders, public health personnel
and security providers for critical
installations and ports, and for purchasing
new and improved equipment.

and how about this for Non monetary "Specifics"

Governor
Dean would improve the system dramatically
by reinvigorating the
National Economic Council and creating
a White House Office of Economic
Growth that would work with
governors and mayors to create vital
regional growth strategies, and break
through bureaucratic logjams to
deliver results.

Trade agreements must be
fair. Specifically, they must include
strict and enforceable labor standards
based on the five core standards of the
International Labor Organization
(ILO):
• freedom of association,
• the right to collective bargaining,
• abolition of forced or compulsory
labor,
• abolition of child labor, and
• freedom from discrimination.


To help America’s trading partners
incorporate labor and
environmental standards into their
domestic body of laws, the Governor
will call on the World Bank, the
regional development banks, the International
Labor Organization, other
multilateral organizations and our own
government to provide developing
nations with meaningful technical
assistance when needed.

I mean I'm sorry I'm not going to cut and paste the whole document into here. People certainly can read it for themselves. It's got PLENTY of details.


Care to address the second part of my post?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #109
112. I'm not going to argue with you about characterizations.
Edited on Mon Nov-17-03 06:17 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
You call that specific - I say otherwise - I've stated that the reason I think it is not specific is because it calls for spending $100 billion dollars and says how to spend it in two sentences.

But however we describe it, both plans are here in this thread for folks to read for themselves. Anyone can look for themselves and see which one is specific.


As far as trade, Kerry has talked about using the Jordan-US Free Trade Agreement as a model. This agreement is the first enacted that does include environmental and labor provisions. Is it perfect -- no doubt not. The first try never is perfect.

Under Article 6 of the FTA, the United States and Jordan reaffirm obligations under the International Labor Organization and their obligations under the International Labor Organization’s Declaration on Fundamental Principles and Rights at Work and its Follow-Up.

The United States and Jordan agree to not relax domestic labor laws to encourage trade. Additionally, both countries agreed to ensure that laws for labor standards comply with international recognized labor rights. The FTA does not address any new labor laws or commitments.
http://www.jordanusfta.com/overview_labor_en.asp


Article 5 of the FTA addresses the issues of environmental laws. Seeking to protect and preserve the environment, each country affirms that neither will waiver or relax their current environmental laws. Furthermore, the country agrees to “provide for high level of environmental protection and to strive to continue to improve“ their environmental laws.

The United States and Jordan also issued a Joint Statement on Environmental Technical Cooperation. Under the memorandum, the United States and Jordan will establish a Joint Forum on Environmental Technical Cooperation, which will regularly discuss environmental priorities, and to work jointly to enhance levels of environmental protection.
http://www.jordanusfta.com/overview_trade_related_environment_en.asp




"Care to address the second part of my post?" -- I'm sorry, what do you want me to address?
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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #112
116. I'm sorry, what do you want me to address?
I stated that choosing a President is more than choosing the best policy proposal.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #116
119. We'll each use our own criteria to decide who to support.
Some will choose on looks. Others because the candidates speeches inspire them. Some will decide based on a single litmus-test issue. Others will want someone they agree with on a broad range of issues. Some will support a candidate because it's the 'cool' thing to do. Others because it is the 'uncool' thing to do. Some will look for someone as liberal as themselves. Others will pick based on who has the most media buzz.


Have I addressed the question to your satisfaction?

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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #119
122. Yes we will
other, considerations than the ones you listed might include Leadership ability, backbone, honesty, flexability in views and much more.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #122
123. You forgot honesty and integrity.
Eight of our candidates share those traits.

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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #123
125. Honesty was included
and um... I thought you said further up the thread we weren't going to discuss "characterizations"... so why are you throwing more of them out?
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RevolutionStartsNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #119
126. Agreed. For me it's the whole package
I was discussing this with someone the other night. I liked DK best first, as far as issues go, I liked almost all of his positions, but when I started looking to the rest of the field, Dean clearly had the whole package -- ideas, record, personality, tenacity, well-run campaign, and the potential to catch fire with the people (which he has). I like some of the other candidates for various reasons but Dean has the complete package.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. Presidents execute wars
Congress authorizes wars. The President does not have to go to war just because Congress votes to allow it. FDR did not have to go to war against Germany or Japan just because Congress authorized it. He would have been expected to avoid those wars if it was possible. This authorization continued through to Truman. Truman dropped the bomb on Japan. It doesn't mean that any given Congressman agreed with that decision or should be said to have voted for that event. The President is responsible for the diplomacy, the final decision of when to deploy the military, and the manner in which that military deployment is executed. That's his job, in the Constitution.

That resolution was clear. Enforce UN resolutions OR defend U.S. security. The intent of Congress was clear. It's up to the President to execute his duties within the intent of Congress. Bush didn't. He lied and manipulated intelligence, circumvented the UN and alienated the world to have his war. He abused the powers of Commander in Chief.

If you want Democrats to go after Bush, then let's go after Bush and stop blaming Democrats for Bush's abuse of power.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
46. No response? Don't blame Bush?
Interesting.
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #46
94. I blame Shrub
But that doesn't mean there isn't more than enough blame to go around to our Dems who voted in favor of the IWR, too.

Do you think those concepts are mutually exclusive? Well, they aren't. I can be just as angry with them over that one vote as I am at Shrub for his desire to go to war. The only difference is that our Dems at least have redeeming qualities when it comes to *other* issues (which is what keeps Kerry as my #2). Still doesn't mean I can't blame both when it comes to that ONE issue.
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Pez Donating Member (522 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
9. kerry-- "bring it on"-- was awesome :-D
i also liked gephardt's dig at shrubby-- something like he has one thought in his head, maybe not even one... hahah ;-) nice rips on BUSH INC from our candidates last night.
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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
11. Kerry needs to start attacking Bush
...and just start ignoring Dean. Dean is going to eventually hurt himself, and as long as Kerry just keeps working on ripping Bush, Kerry has a good shot at recovering at the polls.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Well, he's been attacking Bush all along.
Kerry shouldn't stop attacking Bush, but he has to go after Dean as well. The media, with their obsession on horse-race coverage, is not going to tell any story other than who won the lastest poll unless they are forced to talk about something else. As long as the details of the issues and the differences between the candidates aren't discussed, momentum is everything. The only way to change the momentum is to get the press talking about something else.

And you are right about Dean hurting himself, but don't forget that the Confederate flag gaffe was forced by Kerry. If Kerry hadn't highlighted Dean's NRA support, that whole foot-in-mouth episode wouldn't have happened.

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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Kerry's "brilliant gaffe-exposure" results in
Dean increasing his lead in NH to 22 points.


WindRavenX is half right. He needs to focus on Bush AND focus on Kerry.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I'm sure you'd love it if the other candidates stopped criticizing Dean.
It ain't gonna happen.

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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I'm not sure about that.
On the one hand, I'd like the campaigns to focus on their respective ideas and how they are far more preferable than of those of Chimp.

Yet, on still the other hand, the more Dean is attacked, the better he does.

I'm in a quandry!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. He he he he he he he.................
Lieberman ~ "Iraq is a just war............................."

I added my own :)
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
26. Kerry is becoming such an arrogant jerk.
I used to like him, but things like "Every poll shows it -- I do better than Howard Dean against George Bush," Kerry said. "It's time for us to get serious in this party -- pick somebody who can win and take back the White House, and I'm that person." make me want to punch him in the face. He was a gutless coward on that IWR vote and did it for political expediency.

Besides, Clark does better in nearly every poll against Bush than Kerry does so he can buzz off that he is the most electable. Being a war hero alone doesn't make you a winner. George McGovern was a bomber pilot in WWII.
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Gutless Coward?? Did you say Gutless Coward?? Apparently you don't
understand Kerry's position on that vote. He was AGAINST THE IRAQI SHEPERD BOMBING RESOLUTION but he voted FOR IT to block Bush. Pretty smart huh?? BUT he was fooled by Bush ('easily led' but in some circles the preferred word is 'stupid') but not COMPLETELY fooled just sort of fooled because he's a FOREIGN POLICY EXPERT and a local leader in pheasant hunts & motor bike rallies!!

Anyway... he is COMPLETELY 100% For Bombing The Sheperds AND 100% AGAINST Bombing The Sheperds and #2 Kerry is FOR dropping bombs but AGAINST the bombs hitting the ground.

Hope this clears it all up.

Dean '04...
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Nice sarcasm.
I like it.

He had a chance to prove his political courage and he failed. I will never forgive the Democrats that voted for the IWR. That was the key vote of my lifetime(I'm kind of young, but still) and he came down on the wrong side along with half of our Democratic senators.
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. There's nothing funny about politicians who send the young to die. They
have to be stopped. EVERYONE knows that the votes were about polling for their privileged Washington, DC careers and the hell with the deaths of the young and the innocent.

Evolution will hopefully provide a generation of intelligent leaders who will look beyond their own selfish interests. Remember... 'selfish' is just a kinder word for 'stupid'.

Dean '04...
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. You're blaming Kerry instead of Bush? Misguided at best.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #36
131. They're both responsible.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. Your post is incoherent, nonsense.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. There is an arrogant jerk running but it's not Kerry, it's Bush


The five leading Democratic presidential candidates — and home state Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (news - web sites) — top President Bush (news - web sites) in support among New York voters, according to a statewide poll released Friday.

The Quinnipiac University Polling Institute found the Republican president's approval rating at 44 percent, up slightly from 42 percent in a similar poll released early last month.

Those surveyed favored former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean over Bush, 48-44 percent; Connecticut Sen. Joe Lieberman over the president, 49-43 percent; Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry, 50-42 percent; Missouri Rep. Dick Gephardt, 49-43 percent; and Wesley Clark 47-43 percent.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/bush_new_york_poll


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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
41. Here's a meaningless slogan:
"We need to offer answers, not just anger. We need to offer solutions, not just slogans."
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Here are answers and solutions
I'd be happy to discuss the relative merits of the candidate's plans for the environment and energy, health care, Iraq, homeland security - you name it, Kerry does answer solutions, not slogans.

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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. Yes, he has solutions...
The same with every other candidate, but apparently his irony detector is broken.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #48
51. Why don't you want to talk about the details?
Because you realize that Dean's 'plans' are just wish-lists and his solutions are nothing but slogans.

Or maybe I'm overstating it. Prove me wrong. What is Dean's plan for reviving our manufacturing sector? Under Bush's leadership this vital part of the economy has been shutting down and jobs moving overseas. How does Dean plan on reversing that? Bush has also talked the talk on Homeland Security but hasn't backed it up with actions. Does Dean have a plan to make our communities safer? Let's talk about it and see what kind of a plan it is?

Let's hear the details. Prove me wrong.

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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #51
55. Nothing will be good enough for you.
You'll just nitpick whatever Dean comes up with to death and bash it.

If I want to look at plans, I can go to each candidates website.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #55
58. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #58
64. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
RevolutionStartsNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. Thank you, indigo
I think the debating of policies on here can be informative, but it doesn't change minds. If you hate Dean, his policies look weak. If you hate Kerry, his plans look pointless.

Personally I think ALL of the candidates have good plans for the various issues -- some are stronger than others. Clark probably has a better handle on foreign policy, Dean on health care and the budget, Gep on worker's issues, etc.
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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. Personally I think ALL of the candidates have good plans for the various i
I totally agree.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #67
73. Then let's talk about them.
What's wrong with that idea?


Is name-calling and citing polls really the limit of our debate powers? Surely we are up to the task of discussing the relative merits of the candidate's proposals (if they have any).

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RevolutionStartsNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #73
81. Candidate's plans and positions are discussed here all the time
But they are mostly drowned out by the endless bashing and pissing matches.

Also, you aren't likely to get many responses when you seem to be "calling out" the opposition. It's not very conducive to thoughtful discourse, IMO.

Anything that gets posted will just get blasted with charges that it's not good enough, and this happens to all of the candidates, not just Dean.

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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. Perhaps discussing policy is tedious.
Perhaps "Anything that gets posted will just get blasted with charges that it's not good enough".

So what? Isn't that better than just repeating insults all the time?

"But they are mostly drowned out by the endless bashing and pissing matches. "

I completely agree. Hence my request to discuss policy instead.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #64
72. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. Ummm call it whatever you will
I don't care. I know what I've seen.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #75
78. I resent you saying that I won't honestly discuss policy.
It was totally uncalled for.

If you "don't care" then please skip the insults.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #79
83. I ask you politely not to insult me and you respond with another insult.
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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #83
102. How was that an insult?
Edited on Mon Nov-17-03 05:26 PM by indigo32
it was a simple explanation of my feelings. At least two other people on this thread have said basically the same thing. I guess biased is an insult now.

BTW check #101 for policy discussion.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #102
104. Check the rules, they will explain why your post was deleted.
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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #104
106. I was NOT attacking you
and actually I wasn't asking you why my post was deleted either. You didn't delete it.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #106
108. Then why WAS your post deleted?
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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #108
110. Thats between me and the moderator.
You specifically said I insulted you... and implied I attack you... I'm talking to YOU. Do you not think that was an overreaction?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #110
113. Then why bring up in the thread?
I stand by my words.

You did insult me and if you do it again I will call you on it again and alert the post again.

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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #113
115. "Then why bring it up in the thread?"
I never asked why my post was deleted (obviously I know you alerted it... but you DIDN'T delete it). But this is getting us nowhere. end of discussion.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #115
117. Whatever. Follow the rules and your posts won't be deleted.
Edited on Mon Nov-17-03 06:20 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
Don't insult me, and I won't say you insulted me. :eyes:

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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #117
118. cuz you've never had one deleted
Edited on Mon Nov-17-03 06:22 PM by indigo32
:eyes:
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #118
120. If I step over the line and violate the rules, my posts should be deleted.
If I resort to namecalling and personal attacks, I should find better ways to make my point.

OK?

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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #79
87. What do you think about the candidates and their records and proposals?
That would be an appropriate topic for discussion. Your opinion of me is not.

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RevolutionStartsNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #51
60. Sigh...
I love these threads where someone says that Dean has no plans and when the inevitable reply is "Give me a break", the Dean supporter is accused of being unable or unwilling to debate Dean's plans or policies.

Honestly, there are too many Dean threads on this board to reply to each and every one with a detailed description of Dean's positions. The research is out there.

But just to make you happy, here's some specific info on Dean's plans for Homeland Security:

"We must give the nation's first defenders and responders the resources and training they need; improve communication systems; and clarify the appropriate roles for federal, state and local government. We should also make homeland security a core mission of the National Guard. And we must fund homeland security research and development, including safer alternatives to hazardous chemicals, innovative approaches to container security and better controls over nuclear, chemical, biological and radiological materials here and abroad." http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_foreign_homelandsecurity_oped

He's also talked often about improving port security, which is surprisingly lax.

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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. That's exactly what I meant by a wish list.
Dean says we must do X,Y, and Z but doesn't say how.

Let's see what a real homeland security proposal looks like:

JOHN KERRY’S PLAN TO MAKE AMERICA STRONGER AND SAFER

(1) A NATIONAL ‘DEFEND AMERICA’ INITIATIVE.
Americans showed on September 11th that they want to contribute to their communities and their country. People waited hours to donate blood or help grieving families. Yet the Bush Administration has asked little of Americans, focusing instead on giving more tax cuts for the wealthy. John Kerry believes winning the war against terrorism will require tapping the best our country has to offer and asking more of Americans. He would start by:

* Enlisting the National Guard in Homeland Security. Homeland security should be a central mission of the National Guard. Guard members should be trained to serve as personnel in the event of an attack, helping evacuate or quarantine people, assisting in medical units; and helping communities set up and execute plans.
* Expanding Americorps to Make Homeland Security a Core Mission. Since 9/11, applications to Americorps have increased by 50 percent and applications to Teach for America have tripled. Unfortunately, the Bush Administration promised to double Americorps and then stood by as Congressional Republicans cut it in half. John Kerry believes that Americorps should be doubled and its mission expanded to include homeland security. Americorps members could be trained to help in emergency medical response, community planning, and other homeland security activities.
* Creating a New Community Defense Service. This service would be comprised of hundreds of thousands of Americans in neighborhoods all over the country. Volunteer Service Captains would receive training and education to assist their communities in the event of an attack Like the Civil Defense Program that existed during World War II, service captains would act as a 21st century Neighborhood Watch. They would be trained to help identify local health professionals and experts in the area, provide information on local evacuation or quarantine plans, and stand ready to be of assistance to first defenders in the hours after an attack -- providing needed manpower to deal with the aftermath.
* Calling on the Private Sector to Help Bring Technological Innovations to the War on Terrorism. During World War II, the U.S. government brought together our greatest thinkers, scientists, academics and policymakers through the Manhattan Project to design new tools for warfare. John Kerry believes we need a similar effort to bring the advances of the 21st century to the War on Terrorism. This should include: gathering the nation’s greatest scientists to develop needed vaccines and antidotes to the biological and chemical scourges (similar to the work that is already being done to protect troops on the battlefield from biological and chemical agents); partnering with the technology community to improve detection technologies and developing and implementing new security systems to prevent tampering with goods in transit.

(2) A NEW ‘FIRST DEFENDERS’ INITIATIVE TO ASSURE LOCAL RESPONDERS ARE EQUIPPED AND READY. Too often law enforcement officers, firefighters and Emergency Medical Technicians (EMTs) are operating in a vacuum, and in many communities, are understaffed. America would not ask our military to go with inadequate staffing or equipment, and the same should hold true for domestic responders. However, again and again, the Bush Administration has turned the other way when it comes to real money for first responders. John Kerry believes first defenders should be a priority now. The First Defenders Program would do just that by:

* Assuring First Defenders Have the Gear To Do Their Jobs Safely and Effectively. Nearly four out of five mayors have reported a funding shortfall for necessary threat detection or emergency preparedness equipment. First defenders often don't have the protective gear or other emergency response equipment to help react in the critical first hours after an attack. The government should immediately fund the backlog of requests for protective gear, assuring that these resources go directly to responders, rather than trickling through the bureaucracy.
* Ending the Cop Crunch. Even before 9/11, many cities were having trouble recruiting police officers as fast as they were losing them. President Bush made this problem even worse by cutting the Federal COPs program. As a result, police officers receive fewer resources to double up on duty, doing their normal responsibilities as well as focusing on homeland security. Americans shouldn't have to face rising crime in their communities to fight the war on terrorism. John Kerry believes we should restore funding to COPS to realize its initial mission of 100,000 new police officers.
* Hiring and Equipping the Nation’s Firefighters. Today, nearly two-thirds of firehouses are understaffed, making it difficult to deal with traditional fires and medical emergencies as well as terrorism. John Kerry believes we need to create a separate fund – after a hero of September 11th, Father Mychal Judge, the chaplain of the New York City Fire Department who died delivering last rites. The Father Judge Fund would be similar to the COPS program, that goes directly to hire up to 100,000 new firefighters and to provide the equipment necessary to assure firefighters are prepared.
* Determining Basic National Standards So Every Metropolitan Area is Prepared.There are currently no common standards for what basic capabilities every major metropolitan area should have to respond to chemical, biological, and other catastrophic terrorist attacks. Kerry believes the Department of Homeland Security should work with representatives of federal, state, county and local governments; representative of health providers and first responders, and rank and file members to develop appropriate standards for preparedness in our cities and provide resources so communities can meet these goals.

(3) BRINGING 21ST CENTURY INFORMATION TECHOLOGY TO THE WAR ON TERROR. Most firefighters and local police don't have the equipment they need to communicate with each other during an attack. For example, firefighters in the World Trade Center did not have radios that worked indoors. Moreover, many local and state law enforcement agencies don't have access to critical information that would help stop terrorists. In fact, some of the terrorists on 9/11 previously had been pulled over by local law enforcement. John Kerry believes local enforcement agencies must have the information they need to fight terrorism. That includes:

* Assuring First-Responders Can Communicate in an Attack. Existing technologies must be made available to firefighters, police officers, and other first responders to communicate in an attack. The nation should also invest in technologies that make this critical communication even easier. We also need to work with the FCC to assure first defenders have access to the best wavelengths so they can communicate in an emergency.
* Sharing Information With Appropriate State and Local Officials. Appropriate state and local authorities should immediately get access to the 58 national terrorist lists and intelligence officials should work to simplify these lists. Then, as recommended by the Hart-Rudnam Commission, a 24-hour operations center should be established in each state to provide a real time intergovernmental link between local and federal law enforcement. Field-level police would contact this center to determine whether to hold or release suspects based on a check of federal databases.
* Cutting Down on False Identification. Four of the five terrorists who crashed an airliner into the Pentagon had false IDs. Attorney General Ashcroft’s solution to address identification challenges has been a wholesale assault on civil liberties. With better technology, we can replace these "big-net" tactics with smarter, more targeted efforts to identify real terrorism suspects. This includes encouraging states to modernize their driver's license and ID systems; strengthening anti-counterfeit safeguards; enabling different state motor vehicle departments to communicate about applicants using false information; and investigating phony identification traffickers.

(4) REFORMING DOMESTIC INTELLIGENCE. Many of the examinations of 9/11 have raised serious questions about whether the FBI is the right agency to conduct domestic intelligence collection and analysis given their fundamental mission is to catch and prosecute criminals. The Bush Administration’s proposed terrorist threat integration center, (TTIC) would not be able to do the job, given its dependence on other agencies' analysts, the bureaucratic divide created between people identifying vulnerabilities and individuals charged with eliminating those vulnerabilities, and the numerous people in charge that could complicate efforts to work with the states and local governments on information sharing. John Kerry believes that simplifying the bureaucratic charts makes more sense. America needs an independent intelligence capability that focuses explicitly on domestic intelligence.

(5) A NATIONAL HOMELAND HEALTH INITIATIVE. America’s public health system has risen to important challenges before, conquering typhoid fever, malaria, small pox, polio and other once common diseases. However, it lacks the advances necessary to detect or contain a major outbreak. There are too few medical personnel trained to spot biological attacks, a shortage of sophisticated laboratories to identify the agents and inadequate supplies of drugs and vaccines to counteract the threat. John Kerry believes we must upgrade the public health system by:

* Connecting the Nation’s Public Health Systems with a Real Time Detection System. This initiative would apply the benefits of 21st century modern technology to provide real time reporting of disease outbreaks and track and monitor health trends. Most bioterror illnesses initially look like the flu, and health professionals may not realize a trend. A new real time detection system would pool confidential patient data and pharmacy usage across the country to alert public health officials when disease is on the rise.
* Assuring Health Care Providers Are Prepared to Detect and Respond to an Attack. Today, most doctors and nurses are not adequately trained to detect many biological weapons and hospitals are not prepared to respond to a mass crisis. This initiative would provide training to health providers and assist hospitals and other providers in developing plans for a surge in patients.
* Increasing Research for Diagnostic Tests, Vaccines, and Treatments. When penicilln was discovered, it was found to treat a wide range of illnesses. Later, Cipro treated a wide range of bacterial diseases, including anthrax Terrorist organizations and hostile dictators are trying to create new biological weapons that will kill us fast with designer variations on existing diseases. We need to bring together the best of the public and private sectors to develop broad-spectrum designer antidotes so that our first responders - and our population -- can be protected and treated from the widest possible range of attacks.

(6) DEFENDING OUR SKIES, SEA, AND LAND. Currently, 95% of all non-North American U.S. trade moves by sea, concentrated mostly in a handful of ports. Everyday we import millions of cargo containers, any one of which could contain deadly threats to our people such as a deadly disease secreted in a shipment of foreign fruit – radioactive material hidden in frozen seafood. If an explosive device were loaded in a container and set off in a port, its results could be catastrophic, not just in terms of the immediate loss of human life, but on the impact on global commerce. John Kerry believes improvements must be made, while recognizing that global prosperity and America’s economic power depends on an efficient system. He believes we should:

* Improve Port Security. The Maritime Transportation Act of 2002, which primarily focused on the physical security of ports, is essentially an unfunded mandate, receiving only $200-$300 million extra since 9/11. John Kerry believes we need to develop standards for security at loading facilities for containers and assure facilities can meet basic standards. He also believes America should be researching and developing containers that will be technologically transparent – capable of being inspected instantly by detection and identification equipment. Technology could also improve accuracy and timing for transmitting and sharing data about contents, location, and chain of control involving a container shipment.
* Secure Bridges and Tunnels. Only five major bridges and one tunnel link Ontario to Michigan and New York, and account for 70% of all the trade between the U.S. and Canada. To improve security on this important commerce, John Kerry believes we should accelerate the timetable for the action plans agreed to in the U.S.-Canada and U.S.-Mexico “smart border” accords. America should also work with Canada to implement adequate security measures for cross-border bridges and the Detroit-Windsor tunnel.
* Protect Private Infrastructure. At least 3/4 of the country's major infrastructure is in private hands. However, if even one large facility is hit, with a biological agent or an explosive that releases toxic fumes, thousands – even millions -- could die. The economy could also take a huge hit, as emergency measures were taken to figure out how to prevent a repeat and shut down whole industries for weeks or even months. The Bush Administration says we should leave it to big business to make these security improvements themselves, even though they are unlikely to make real changes. Others might want to mandate protective measures with an expensive one-size-fits-all Federal solution. John Kerry believes should work to develop modest, minimal safety standards for certain kinds of industry and infrastructure, look at requiring private terrorism insurance, and helping owners find economical ways to improved security.
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/homeland/



You say Dean has specific proposals and this is what you provide:

"We must give the nation's first defenders and responders the resources and training they need; improve communication systems; and clarify the appropriate roles for federal, state and local government. We should also make homeland security a core mission of the National Guard. And we must fund homeland security research and development, including safer alternatives to hazardous chemicals, innovative approaches to container security and better controls over nuclear, chemical, biological and radiological materials here and abroad." http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_foreign_homelandsecurity_oped


What are the specific proposals? Well, Dean has borrowed Kerry's point on the National Guard, and makes some vague commments about improving communication and increasing funding. Is there more to his proposal? Let's hear it.



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RevolutionStartsNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. What I posted was from a speech or statement
If he's written a proposal on this, I'm sure someone will post it. He may not have. Does this mean he doesn't have plans? I doubt it.

Not sure what you are trying to imply ("my candidate's proposals are more detailed than your candidate's proposals!"), but Dean has extensive experience both developing and implementing plans and programs.

Kerry's proposals are excellent, by the way.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #62
70. Look, if he has a plan, I'd like to hear it.

It sounds like nothing but slogans and stump-speech soundbites. Which is the original criticism.

Dean experience is of governing a state with fewer people than most of America's major cities. He's just not up to the task of governing America and his lack of detailed proposals and solutions does not inspire confidence.


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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #61
71. Vague, scary and wish(list)y-washy.
* Enlisting the National Guard in Homeland Security. Homeland security should be a central mission of the National Guard. Guard members should be trained to serve as personnel in the event of an attack, helping evacuate or quarantine people, assisting in medical units; and helping communities set up and execute plans.


How will this be administered?


* Expanding Americorps to Make Homeland Security a Core Mission. Since 9/11, applications to Americorps have increased by 50 percent and applications to Teach for America have tripled. Unfortunately, the Bush Administration promised to double Americorps and then stood by as Congressional Republicans cut it in half. John Kerry believes that Americorps should be doubled and its mission expanded to include homeland security. Americorps members could be trained to help in emergency medical response, community planning, and other homeland security activities.


Who will provide the training? How much will it cost?


* Creating a New Community Defense Service. This service would be comprised of hundreds of thousands of Americans in neighborhoods all over the country. Volunteer Service Captains would receive training and education to assist their communities in the event of an attack Like the Civil Defense Program that existed during World War II, service captains would act as a 21st century Neighborhood Watch. They would be trained to help identify local health professionals and experts in the area, provide information on local evacuation or quarantine plans, and stand ready to be of assistance to first defenders in the hours after an attack -- providing needed manpower to deal with the aftermath.


Who will provide the training? How much will it cost? Who will control these local volunteer groups? The federal Department of Homeland Security?


* Calling on the Private Sector to Help Bring Technological Innovations to the War on Terrorism. During World War II, the U.S. government brought together our greatest thinkers, scientists, academics and policymakers through the Manhattan Project to design new tools for warfare. John Kerry believes we need a similar effort to bring the advances of the 21st century to the War on Terrorism. This should include: gathering the nation’s greatest scientists to develop needed vaccines and antidotes to the biological and chemical scourges (similar to the work that is already being done to protect troops on the battlefield from biological and chemical agents); partnering with the technology community to improve detection technologies and developing and implementing new security systems to prevent tampering with goods in transit.


Talk about a wish list. Exactly how does John Kerry plan on implementing this?


(4) REFORMING DOMESTIC INTELLIGENCE. Many of the examinations of 9/11 have raised serious questions about whether the FBI is the right agency to conduct domestic intelligence collection and analysis given their fundamental mission is to catch and prosecute criminals. The Bush Administration’s proposed terrorist threat integration center, (TTIC) would not be able to do the job, given its dependence on other agencies' analysts, the bureaucratic divide created between people identifying vulnerabilities and individuals charged with eliminating those vulnerabilities, and the numerous people in charge that could complicate efforts to work with the states and local governments on information sharing. John Kerry believes that simplifying the bureaucratic charts makes more sense. America needs an independent intelligence capability that focuses explicitly on domestic intelligence.


What the hell does this scary shit actually mean?


* Connecting the Nation’s Public Health Systems with a Real Time Detection System. This initiative would apply the benefits of 21st century modern technology to provide real time reporting of disease outbreaks and track and monitor health trends. Most bioterror illnesses initially look like the flu, and health professionals may not realize a trend. A new real time detection system would pool confidential patient data and pharmacy usage across the country to alert public health officials when disease is on the rise.


Total Medical Information Awareness?


* Increasing Research for Diagnostic Tests, Vaccines, and Treatments. When penicilln was discovered, it was found to treat a wide range of illnesses. Later, Cipro treated a wide range of bacterial diseases, including anthrax Terrorist organizations and hostile dictators are trying to create new biological weapons that will kill us fast with designer variations on existing diseases. We need to bring together the best of the public and private sectors to develop broad-spectrum designer antidotes so that our first responders - and our population -- can be protected and treated from the widest possible range of attacks.


Why Cipro? Why "designer" antibiotics? What the hell is Kerry's staff talking about here? Do they even understand the concept of antibiotics and environmentally driven bacterial resistance? Do they think there are "antidotes" for viruses?


* Protect Private Infrastructure. At least 3/4 of the country's major infrastructure is in private hands. However, if even one large facility is hit, with a biological agent or an explosive that releases toxic fumes, thousands – even millions -- could die. The economy could also take a huge hit, as emergency measures were taken to figure out how to prevent a repeat and shut down whole industries for weeks or even months. The Bush Administration says we should leave it to big business to make these security improvements themselves, even though they are unlikely to make real changes. Others might want to mandate protective measures with an expensive one-size-fits-all Federal solution. John Kerry believes should work to develop modest, minimal safety standards for certain kinds of industry and infrastructure, look at requiring private terrorism insurance, and helping owners find economical ways to improved security.


What industries? What "modest" standards? Could this be just another unformed "wish list"?

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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #71
80. Heheheheh
Talkin' policy is fun!
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #80
86. Why don't you try it then?
Do you have anything substantive to add to the discussion?

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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. If you have a problem with Dean's policy statements
Lay them out.

You can start here: http://www.deanforamerica.com/
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. Do have anything to say?
Is linking to Dean's website the height of your rhetorical powers?

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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. Is asking for something that's easily available
The height of yours?

What specific problem do you have with Dean's policy statements?

Reading Dean's website, I feel he will make a great president and move the country in the right direction. I don't need detailed heavily detailed plans, which will just get changed when it goes through congress anyway, to impress me.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #90
91. What policy statement?
Dean's website is full of great-sounding soundbites and slogans.

You trust Dean to do the right thing -- fine for you. Some voters would rather hear what he plans on doing.


You have yet to cite one specific proposal of Dean's that you support and are willing to discuss. Let's hear it. Anything. On any topic. Show us you are capable of dicussing something concretely.

If you really need me to pick something, I'll pick Dean's Iraq plan.

Dean calls for NATO to take over security in Iraq. The same idea floated by the Bush administration today. Why not the UN? Why are Bush and Dean afraid of going to the UN?





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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #91
93. We have allies in NATO. We need all the help we can get.
It's not rocket science.

This is what I mean when I say you'll just shoot down everything.

Dean want's to get the UN involved as well.

Even Clark wants NATO to help out.

What is wrong with Dean's policies on Rural America?
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/Policy_-_Rural_Development_and_Agriculture.pdf?docID=1404

What is wrong with Dean's healthcare plan?
These are just slogans?
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_health

What would satisfy you, besides John Kerry saying the same thing?
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RevolutionStartsNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #91
95. You don't seem want to discuss policy,
you appear to just want to criticize Dean's positions.

If he doesn't have a detailed a-la John Kerry, then he's nothing but slogans.

If he does have a detailed plan, then it's the wrong plan.

You said above that Dean is "an arrogant jerk." Good luck starting some real policy discussion with that type of bias.

And you wonder why more people aren't jumping in to serve you up Dean's words so you can attack him?



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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #95
96. Kerry says the UN should take over in Iraq. Bush and Dean say NATO.
Edited on Mon Nov-17-03 03:30 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
That is a policy difference. To discuss that policy without resorting to personal attacks, there is no reason to use the personal pronoun 'you' in a post.

The UN is the only world body with the credibility and standing to do this. Bush and Dean may say it has no record of 'nation-building' -- I guess they forgot about East Timor.

NATO is also the wrong way to go because European troops will just be seen as modern-day crusaders and additional targets. Also any NATO action needs to be a consensus decision. With the French pushing for a strong UN role all along, what are the odds they will agree to the plan proposed by Bush and Dean?

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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #95
97. Your statement is false.
Edited on Mon Nov-17-03 03:27 PM by Feanorcurufinwe

Your statement:
You said above that Dean is "an arrogant jerk."


Is absolutely false. I called Bush an arrogant jerk.


Please stick to the truth when you insult me in the future.




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RevolutionStartsNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #97
121. You're right, I'm sorry
I read it wrong. Sorry about that.

I wasn't insulting you, merely pointing out that you might be unreasonably biased. I still think that might be the case, but I do apologize for misquoting you.

Tensions are high here, eh?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #121
124. If
we can keep it honest and impersonal, there is no reason for tensions to run high.

Apology accepted.

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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #71
82. Clear, concise, specific
* Enlisting the National Guard in Homeland Security. Homeland security should be a central mission of the National Guard. Guard members should be trained to serve as personnel in the event of an attack, helping evacuate or quarantine people, assisting in medical units; and helping communities set up and execute plans.

How will this be administered?


I guess I don't understand your question. Are you asking what the command structure of the national guard is? BTW, this is one proposal that Dean has borrowed from Kerry so I'm not sure you want to argue against it. :eyes:


* Expanding Americorps to Make Homeland Security a Core Mission. Since 9/11, applications to Americorps have increased by 50 percent and applications to Teach for America have tripled. Unfortunately, the Bush Administration promised to double Americorps and then stood by as Congressional Republicans cut it in half. John Kerry believes that Americorps should be doubled and its mission expanded to include homeland security. Americorps members could be trained to help in emergency medical response, community planning, and other homeland security activities.

Who will provide the training? How much will it cost?


Well, we already have ways to train people in these areas. And anything is going to cost money. Are you saying you think this is not a good idea? Are you opposed to this proposal?


* Creating a New Community Defense Service. This service would be comprised of hundreds of thousands of Americans in neighborhoods all over the country. Volunteer Service Captains would receive training and education to assist their communities in the event of an attack Like the Civil Defense Program that existed during World War II, service captains would act as a 21st century Neighborhood Watch. They would be trained to help identify local health professionals and experts in the area, provide information on local evacuation or quarantine plans, and stand ready to be of assistance to first defenders in the hours after an attack -- providing needed manpower to deal with the aftermath.


Who will provide the training? How much will it cost? Who will control these local volunteer groups? The federal Department of Homeland Security?


Well you've answered your question haven't you?

* Calling on the Private Sector to Help Bring Technological Innovations to the War on Terrorism. During World War II, the U.S. government brought together our greatest thinkers, scientists, academics and policymakers through the Manhattan Project to design new tools for warfare. John Kerry believes we need a similar effort to bring the advances of the 21st century to the War on Terrorism. This should include: gathering the nation’s greatest scientists to develop needed vaccines and antidotes to the biological and chemical scourges (similar to the work that is already being done to protect troops on the battlefield from biological and chemical agents); partnering with the technology community to improve detection technologies and developing and implementing new security systems to prevent tampering with goods in transit.


Talk about a wish list. Exactly how does John Kerry plan on implementing this?


I guess no matter how detailed a plan is, you could say it is not detailed enough. Dean says "And we must fund homeland security research and development" and I suppose because that is more vague than what Kerry is saying it suits you better :eyes:


(4) REFORMING DOMESTIC INTELLIGENCE. Many of the examinations of 9/11 have raised serious questions about whether the FBI is the right agency to conduct domestic intelligence collection and analysis given their fundamental mission is to catch and prosecute criminals. The Bush Administration’s proposed terrorist threat integration center, (TTIC) would not be able to do the job, given its dependence on other agencies' analysts, the bureaucratic divide created between people identifying vulnerabilities and individuals charged with eliminating those vulnerabilities, and the numerous people in charge that could complicate efforts to work with the states and local governments on information sharing. John Kerry believes that simplifying the bureaucratic charts makes more sense. America needs an independent intelligence capability that focuses explicitly on domestic intelligence.

What the hell does this scary shit actually mean?


You don't understand it?


* Connecting the Nation’s Public Health Systems with a Real Time Detection System. This initiative would apply the benefits of 21st century modern technology to provide real time reporting of disease outbreaks and track and monitor health trends. Most bioterror illnesses initially look like the flu, and health professionals may not realize a trend. A new real time detection system would pool confidential patient data and pharmacy usage across the country to alert public health officials when disease is on the rise.


Total Medical Information Awareness?


You are opposed to this idea? That is a valid opinion. Maybe we don't need to do anything to prepare for a bio-terror attack.


* Increasing Research for Diagnostic Tests, Vaccines, and Treatments. When penicilln was discovered, it was found to treat a wide range of illnesses. Later, Cipro treated a wide range of bacterial diseases, including anthrax Terrorist organizations and hostile dictators are trying to create new biological weapons that will kill us fast with designer variations on existing diseases. We need to bring together the best of the public and private sectors to develop broad-spectrum designer antidotes so that our first responders - and our population -- can be protected and treated from the widest possible range of attacks.


Why Cipro? Why "designer" antibiotics? What the hell is Kerry's staff talking about here? Do they even understand the concept of antibiotics and environmentally driven bacterial resistance? Do they think there are "antidotes" for viruses?


You might want to re-read this, it doesn't sound like you understood this one either.


* Protect Private Infrastructure. At least 3/4 of the country's major infrastructure is in private hands. However, if even one large facility is hit, with a biological agent or an explosive that releases toxic fumes, thousands – even millions -- could die. The economy could also take a huge hit, as emergency measures were taken to figure out how to prevent a repeat and shut down whole industries for weeks or even months. The Bush Administration says we should leave it to big business to make these security improvements themselves, even though they are unlikely to make real changes. Others might want to mandate protective measures with an expensive one-size-fits-all Federal solution. John Kerry believes should work to develop modest, minimal safety standards for certain kinds of industry and infrastructure, look at requiring private terrorism insurance, and helping owners find economical ways to improved security.

What industries? What "modest" standards? Could this be just another unformed "wish list"?


No, every detail of this part of the plan is not worked out. For example, what the standards would be would have to be worked out for each industrial sector. I suppose you could say it is better to have no plan at all, than one that provides a jumping off point. And what is Dean's proposal for protecting private infrastructure? " " --- I guess that is harder for me to criticize, lol.

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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #82
129. Get this. John Kerry's plans to make the US safer SUCK.
We need better port security.

We need better border security.

We need better infrastructure/power/water security.

We need better passenger plane/boat/train security.

We need to offer training and equipment to community-based first response teams.

We can all agree on these things.

What we don't need is a new domestic intelligence organization. Jesus fucking Christ, just what we fucking need -- a fully sanctioned domestic CIA. Is Kerry's head completely up his ass?

We don't need a federal database of every person's medical records. Where is the fucking evidence that this would help control bioterror? And what the hell is the bioterror threat anyway? What James Bond terrorists are in the lab making designer germs? If we know of any, why aren't we trying to stop them? If we don't know of any, who the fuck are we trying to fool with our sci-fi super-spy fantasies of terror -- those of us who care about the Bill of Rights?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #129
130. Get this Dean's lack of a plan SUCKS
Edited on Tue Nov-18-03 01:00 AM by Feanorcurufinwe
I mean really does it have to degenerate to that? I'd like to answer some of the points you made but your sneering, crude tone has me too angry to do so. I'm asking you nicely to post the same things in a more respectful way so that I may answer.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 12:51 AM
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