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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 03:16 PM
Original message
For the defense
Dean chose not to reappoint Appel for a third four-year term as defender general, the state official who heads the state’s public defender program. In appointing Valerio, of Proctor, the new defender general, Dean had kind words for Appel. But Appel had clashed with Dean on numerous occasions in his efforts to secure for his office the resources necessary to fulfill his duties conscientiously.

Just two years ago Dean tried to prevent Appel from accepting a $150,000 federal grant aimed at assisting defendants with mental disabilities. For Dean to block a government agency from receiving federal money was unusual in itself. But Dean’s openly expressed bias against criminal defendants provided a partial explanation.

Dean has made no secret of his belief that the justice system gives all the breaks to defendants. Consequently, during the 1990s, state’s attorneys, police, and corrections all received budget increases vastly exceeding increases enjoyed by the defender general’s office. That meant the state’s attorneys were able to round up ever increasing numbers of criminal defendants, but the public defenders were not given comparable resources to respond.

The problem with giving a disproportionate share of state resources to prosecution and enforcement is that it throws the justice system out of kilter. A just result occurs in court only when the prosecution and defense both are ably represented.


http://rutlandherald.com/Archive/Articles/Article/31792
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. Wha???????
I knew he was to the right on law and order issues, but, even I didn't think he was THIS bad.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Oh come on - admit it
You really did think he was THIS bad.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. no...I didn't.
I would have put him center right on this issue, but, this puts him much further right.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Perhaps . . . IF IT'S TRUE
again, it looks like we are relying on some pretty shaky evidence to push the good Dr. towards the dark side (in our ever-so-fair estimation).

One unsigned editorial from one local paper (of unknown reputation or bias) does not the truth make.

Since it is not my argument and the burden of proof falls on N_J to actually back up this claim, I suggest he provide some more evidence for this claim. I'm too lazy to look for myself.

Nicholas? Please provide us with another news report from a different paper which substantiates this one, and includes direct quotes from Governor Dean which support the thesis that he holds accused criminal's rights in contempt. (It shouldn't be too hard, I mean the guy was elected governor like 7-8 times in a row :) - surely he must have some hard quotes on record about this subject, including the balancing of victim's rights with the rights of the accused?)

You have 10 minutes. GO!
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Hey Man,
Your time is so UP. Thanks for playing. We have some lovely parting gifts for you.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Once again....



Is it getting quiet in here or is it just me? :shrug:
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. LMAO
That made my night.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. Why isn't this important to you?
Why isn't it important enough to you to exhaustively examine your own chosen candidate's record as you do with Kerry's?

You have written essays based on a scenario that a poster offered, and yet you find it hard to accept a "real time" editorial from a Vermont paper, opinions of progressive legislators in Vermont or Vermont political scientists, all who have given fair warning about Dean's dismissive nature towards most of the progressive agenda. Yet YOUR essays on Kerry based on hypothetical scenarios are serious examinations?
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Ok, this is a fair question and deserves an answer
Recently, I have examined Dean's record to a much greater extent than I have Kerry's. Apart from some of Kerry's recent votes which have been troubling, I generally accept the opinions of people here whom I trust and the things I have read about him in the past that he has an excellent liberal legislative record, would make a great president, and has his heart in the right place. The mischaracterization of his vote on Iraq by nearly everyone in the public (and private) sphere, i.e. "Kerry voted for the war", had me confused about his motives, and in his straddle on the war itself I perceive someone who really thought it was a good idea to disarm Saddam for the good of the country. OK.

There was a particular scenario being posited about his "real" motives in his vote, that he was laying an eleborate legal trap for Bush. After I thought about it for sometime, I realized it painted Kerry in a much worse light than in the situation where he was just hoping for a good outcome - it put him in the position of someone who would trade thousands of lives to play a game of technical "gotcha" on Bush. I thought the theory did a disservice to Kerry, and said so. Whatever legal consequences accrue from the Iraq resolution for Bush, my contention is they are just happy afterthoughts and not his main motivation, which I believe was simply to make Bush act a bit saner. My post was a serious examination of what I thought was a flawed theory.

As far as this particular allegation against Dean goes, I will admit that I don't know with certainty if there is anything to it. I have not seen anything prior to this that indicated that Dean was a monster who would rashly throw out suspect rights in favor of victim's rights. N_J has presented us with one anonymous editorial to that effect. But I have to consider a lot of other things about this. First off, many people express the same kind of frustration with suspect rights. It is emotionally hard having a criminal justice system which treats people we believe as guilty as innocent until proven otherwise. That uneasiness is the price we pay to have a system which will treat us so in the event we are wrongly accused. So, if Dean has expressed that opinion from time to time, it is human. Also, being the chief executive makes him the de facto leader of the prosecution.

I don't know everything about Dean and his record. Has he ever done something bad that I don't about (yet)? Undoubtedly. But it is a matter of weighing the whole package. Dean is a great candidate, and from what I have read of his positions, someone who is very pragmatic in his approach, which I can appreciate.

Finally, there is the matter of the source. You have to admit that in his fatwa against Dean, Nicholas_J has shown his every intention to impune, smear, and lie about Dean through the most wild accusations. I cannot trust the messenger anymore.

In the end, we have one person's written opinion that "Dean has made no secret of his belief that the justice system gives all the breaks to defendants." Is that true? Is that really a fair characterization of Dean's beliefs? We don't really know at this point. It is a serious issue for me if it is true. But I don't have the time that N_J apparently has, and since he is making the accusation, I'm going to assume that Dean is innocent until proven guilty (ironic, no?). Given that I've not heard this particular accusation until this point (assuming that Dean really has not made "no secret" of his beliefs), I have to say that the balance of proof is not with the prosecution.

In other words, bring on more proof, N_J! It is, after all, what I asked him to do in the first place. This is important to me to spend that much more time on it, IF TRUE.
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yet ANOTHER thread on this topic
Is this forum moderated?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. It's funny when one anti-Deanie plays straight man for another...
Just enjoy the humor of the situation...

:puke:
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Abbot and Costello
You are right... I didn't see it in that light.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Yeah,
these two are like a veritable Socrates and Plato, arriving at the truth of how bad Dean is through dialogue. Who knows? This could be the "Crito" of our time. Enjoy!
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #8
20. Editorials are a joke, but YOUR essays
based on hypothetical scenarios are to be taken seriously. hmmm....
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Begone, flashing light!
The Klingons and Kirk are all laughing at you. Into deep space! :)
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
4. I heard Dean eats babies, too.
He likes to suck the blood out of them because he thinks it keeps him youthful.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. He turned me into a NEWT!
...I got better...
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. Probably not. But that wouldn't bother his supporters here
He supported irradiating California's water supply. How many babies will the leakage from Yucca Mountain kill?
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. How many Iraqi babies will never grow up
because the leaders in this country didn't have the fortitude to stand up together against Bush and say "This war is wrong and it must be stopped"?

You're on thin moral ground here - go back in your hole.

Oh, I forgot "Yucca Mountain" == DRINK!
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DianeK Donating Member (612 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
7. your point?
those in need of defense in this society are sorely in need...be there...i have...thank gawd for that..innocent til proven..right?
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
13. Hey, did we shut down this stupid thread?
Well done, everyone. A small victory for reasoned debate. It's like those evil pulsing light things on that original Star Trek episode with the Klingons. If we just laugh at them, they are forced out of the ship and into deep space!
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Just laughing...
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