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Can we afford a new Emperor, even if he is a Democrat?

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dfgrbac Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:04 PM
Original message
Can we afford a new Emperor, even if he is a Democrat?
sfecap recently posted an article on Clark's True Color's (from The Nation) to which I would like to add my spin.

Ladies and gentlemen of DU, I sincerely hope you are paying attention to what is happening to our country and the world. If anything, September 11th should have caused you to think something is drastically wrong. It did me! I knew what I was reading and seeing in our American media was not the true story - it simply didn't make sense, especially the ease with which the terrorists did what they did! I discovered this was a strategic manipulation to get us to go to war with Afghanistan! I said, "Wait a minute! What kind of country am I living in here?" I was determined to find out, and I did. I started taking what I saw in the mainstream media as unreliable propaganda and looked to alternate media for the answers - media like The Nation, Z Magazine, MotherJones, FSTV, WorldLink TV, and the Pacifica Network.

The result of my research (and the research of many dedicated independent journalists in these media) has proved that my country (which I love) has become an industrial - military empire that makes a practice of using military force around the world (especially against people least able to defend themselves) for the economic profiteering of our biggest multinational corporations (the entities that are actually running the country, with purchased politicians).

How is it possible for our government to do this without us knowing about it? The reason is that they have nearly complete control over the media (all media, newspapers, TV, movies, etc.). With their PR professionals, they literally control what we, the people, think!

The Bush Administration is blunt about using military force to intimidate the world, but most of our politicians are also partners in supporting the Empire. They want to continue pouring our tax money into the military to maintain the Empire while our civilian infrastructure crumples in disrepair. The Democrats are a little less blunt and would divert some funds back into social purposes. However, the media PR propaganda machine has systematically demeaned social spending and the empowering of citizen workers (unions) over the years - they are experts at making you think these things are evil (to corporations that want to retain as much profit as possible, they are evil). This results in people being irrelevant and expendable if they get in the way of profits.

The American propaganda machine uses the facade of left vs. right political controversies to keep the people's attention diverted from what they are really doing. They promote the "right-wing conservative view" as the side with principles while anything contrary is demeaned as leftist and described as old, invalid, and disproved. If social values are disproved, that means people are disproved also. Promoting and empowering people is not leftist; it is humane - and the only way to true civilization!

Be warned - these PR propagandists are everywhere to "guide our thinking". I expect a few are members of DU and are promoting General Clark for President. Please don't take offense if you are not one of them, but are a believer in their rhetoric. The corporate elite want to minimize the possible damage to their Empire by a Democratic President. They succeeded with Clinton when the best man for empowering people at the time (1992) was Bob Kerrey of Nebraska. Let's not let the Empire win again. Let's change course from an unstable future of war to one of cooperation, peace, and security. Let's nominate Dennis Kucinich as our leader! Remember, the media poll results are designed to influence YOUR thinking; don't trust them.
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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. good intentions but most people here understand our situation quite well

There are a few types who hide from it but most people here know the score.

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dfgrbac Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Reading the messages
And seeing the support for Clark gives me sincere doubt about that.
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La_Serpiente Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Tons of Kucinich supporters on DU
this is the place for you. Yes, the defense corporations controls our government, just like the Pharmas, HMO's, and everyone else. The only chance to save our country is to start a massive, gigantic movement to take down the warmongers and those that support them.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
39. Kucinich is a Democrat...
I feel sorry for Democratic supporters of Kucinich.....

Are you calling for the revolution?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #39
50. LOL
"Democratic" supporters?

Why do you feel sorry for us, pray tell?
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. Apparently
because you are sooo very dumb that you can't see that buying into repub spin and playing to Americans' worst instincts and fears is what is going to win us the next election. Yay Clark!

I guess you're also supposed to be an anarchist? Don't quite know where those allegations have come from all of a sudden. :shrug:

Unfair, personal attacks by people who apparently either can't defend their candidate or refuse to acknowledge that intelligent, thinking people can disagree with them as to which candidate is best. Sorry to see that the attacks are now aimed at Kucinich supporters, too.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. Yeah that 'anarchist' tag came out of left field
didn't it? I was like... whaaaa? (channeling Jon Stewart)

;)
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. y'oughta
post this in GD.
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dfgrbac Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. What is GD - Nothing to do with God I assume.
I never heard of it!
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
63. General Discussion *nm*
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. I second Fishbine's suggestion
This ought to get more exposure.

Great job!

"If social values are disproved, that means people are disproved also. Promoting and empowering people is not leftist; it is humane - and the only way to true civilization!"

:yourock:
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Think Globally Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Excellent!
Wonderful article. It confirms what I've already suspected. A Clark nomination will turn the 2004 election into right vs. right and leave the rest of us out in the cold!
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
6. I am objecting to this thread....
Edited on Mon Dec-01-03 05:06 PM by Frenchie4Clark
as you are accusing DU members of being PR propagandists.

As this is a Democratic site and not an anarchist or Green site, your accusations are unfounded and prejudicial in judgment.

Below is the offending sentence written:

Be warned - these PR propagandists are everywhere to "guide our thinking". I expect a few are members of DU and are promoting General Clark for President.
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dfgrbac Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. NO - I DID NOT!
I said that the Imperial PR people are everywhere, and I expect a few are here. I've seen them elsewhere.

I am absolutely sure most DU members who support Clark do it out of what they have learned in the media. The trouble is - the media!
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ultrafoil Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I support Clark, because
Dean is wanking, and more to the point the General will win, and clean up the mess the monkey has made of the country.

I trust him.

I don't trust Dean.

Plain and simple, baby.
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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. ultrafoil your post is devoid of content
try harder
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ultrafoil Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #20
48. lmao
Give me something to sink my teeth into, kitty.

I'm getting bored by this poor black guy bit.

Stand up, brother.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dfgrbac Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Where is the passion for people?
General Clark is an intense person, he's passionate, and certainly the military is suspicious of people who are intense and passionate. He is a complex man who does not lend himself to simplistic formulations. But he is very competent, and devoted to the country.

I have no doubt General Clark is a competent general and loves his country as much as I do. As for his passion, he has shown none (from what I've seen) for helping our fellow Americans who are in desperate need of help. Dennis Kucinich has shown passion for helping ordinary Americans - more than any other candidate. He gets more (and louder) cheers than the others - like at the AFL/CIO conference mentioned in Clark's True Colors.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #19
34. The passion
Must be in your back pocket...cause it looks like you hold the corner market on passion....my ass!

Self serving propagandist is a street that many travel......I believe that you are on that road as we speak. Using an opinion piece as though it is fact lacks any integrity that would lead one to believe that you know anything at all.

You have piggybacked not off of a fact ladden informational article, but rather a biased one sided extremist arnachist view of a man.

Shame on you for your zeal in using the tactics of those on the extreme right!
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. I think this is a cmpletely fair and acceptable post for the P and C forum
and the poster calls out no one specifically. Why not jusr rebut his points, rather than silence him? He took the time to post his perspective. Take the time to respond.

BTW, go back and read the rules about who is welcome at DU. That is democratic with a small "d".
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. As one of the DU Clark supporter...
I was called a propagandist. period.
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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. quit crying f4c
that victim act is rather pathetic
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Are you a PR propangadist?
Because that is what I object to. Being called that. I don't give a dam about the rest.

Get that?

Un France, les gents no pas le droit de nous appeler des nons just parce-que.

Je deteste les genre de gents qui pense qu'ils sont plus intelligent que moi. I'l sont, plutot, les plus ignorants.
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dfgrbac Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. NO, I DID NOT!
I said there are probably some PR propagandists here. I didn't say all Clark supporters are propagandists; I am sure most of them are not!

These PR people are professionals, as I documented in that link.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
42. That should be easy enough to rectify
I've been called worse. Use Clark's record to rebut him.
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dfgrbac Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
11. About our military abuse of people in South America
A good site to look at is Father Roy's site, about which I wrote an article titled The School of The Assassins.
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ultrafoil Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. right
When was Clark involved in that thing, that was a Reagan/Bush killing machine.

Guilt by association, ad hominem.

Prove it or lose it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. resorting to name calling blows
it is a legitamite concern

Is Clark a servant of the military industrial complex? I'm not sure but it is a legit question.

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ultrafoil Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. If you couldn't tell.
I'm one pissed off dem, I'm just a little wiser than Dean supporters.

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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #28
49. Given the lack of content
in your posts, your assertion of wisdom is much doubted.


BTW, it is also against DU rules to call other DUers names. Even those with whom you disagree.
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ultrafoil Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. Yes.
You just got owned.

Thanks, bye.
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. Is that supposed to be an insult?
Truly, it's very hard to even know what you are saying. :shrug:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dfgrbac Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #14
33. I am making a point about OUR EMPIRE!
I am trying to get across to you that many Democratic politicians have bought into supporting the Empire - or should I say have been bought for?

Reagan could not have gotten away with his use of military imperial force without help from the Democrats. They should have impeached him, but they caved in on that.
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ultrafoil Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. What is that point?
Empire is bad?

Clark is bad?

Please.

Reality is reality, America, you and I have been forced to this.

What would you suggest we do?

Lmao.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #36
51. Resist?
Just a guess...

Isn't that what the French did, after they were invaded by Hitler?

I think that was a good thing, and am glad they didn't just capitulate to the powers as they were, and roll over for them.
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ultrafoil Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. God, you're jejune.
Wise up!

This is real, this is not about your bunny slippers!



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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #54
60. This is a great example of 'devoid of conent'
You insult / cajole, then issue a directive, then rant a bit about slippers.

You call me childish or dull, because I said we should resist the push toward further militarization.

Try to respond with substance this time, it might actually get somewhere.

Alas, I suspect you're not really interested in debate. I would make a guess as to your motives, but that's silly, however entertaining it might be. :)
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
15. Rant from a DU public Nuisance
Matt Taibbi's True Colors

For years now, I've turned to The Nation mostly for its terrific cryptic crosswords. But they also print articles, and, from following a Clark list, I learned that the current issue of the mag features a remarkably pointless pile of drivel allegedly concerning Wesley Clark, and written by one Matt Taibbi. Although the best part of the magazine, the puzzles, regrettably, don't seem to be available online. Even more regrettable, the drivel is.

The article suggests that Taibbi's wholly negative view of Clark and his supporters comes from his observation of the campaign; in fact, it goes back several years. Through the late 90s, Taibbi lived in Moscow where he co-edited and helped write an English language magazine called The eXile. The eXile was, to put it mildly, opposed to the war in Kosovo. In his writing Taibbi was an open apologist for some of the most notorious crimes of Slobodan Milosevic and his associates. Taibbi wrote a long article implying that the January 15, 1999 massacre of Albanian civilians at Racak never happened. The evidence of a massacre at Racak is extensive; according to Human Rights Watch, which took extensive testimony from survivors:


Precisely how the twenty-three men were killed by the police on the hill outside of Racak remains somewhat unclear. But witness testimony, as provided here, and the physical evidence found at the site by journalists and KVM monitors, makes it clear that most of these men were fired upon from close range as they offered no resistance. Some of them were apparently shot while trying to run away.

Journalists at the scene early on January 16 told Human Rights Watch that many of these twenty-three men also had signs of torture, such as missing finger nails. Their clothes were bloody, with slashes and holes at the same spots as their bullet entry and exits wounds, which argues against government claims that the victims were KLA soldiers who were dressed in civilian clothes after they had been killed. All of them were wearing rubber boots typical of Kosovo farmers rather than military footwear. It is possible that some of these men were defending their village in the morning and then went to the Osmani house once they saw the police entering the village. However, they clearly did not resist the police at the time of their capture or execution.


The massacre at Racak plays a prominent role in the indictment of Milosevic and his cronies for crimes against humanity. But Taibbi claims it was all a con job. To support this fantastic charge he offers no study of the evidence, but simply an examination of the resume of one witness, an American diplomat named William Walker who, as an official of the Kosovo Verification Mission of the OSCE, was among the first foreigners to enter Racak after the atrocities. Mr Walker, it seems, was previously stationed in Central America during the Contra War and related conflicts of the 1980s. Therefore, he is obviously CIA, proving clearly that the Racak massacre must have been a CIA trick. If Mr Walker were the only witness, that would be an ad hominem argument, but at least an argument. But since Walker 's statements were backed by many statements of survivors and other international observers, his own background is simply irrelevant.


The first armed NATO intervention in Yugoslavia took place at the end of August, 1995. The primary cause was the Srebrenica massacre which took place the preceding month, but the immediate spark was an artillery attack on the Sarajevo market that caused over 100 civilian casualties. Another Taibbi article suggests that this attack was staged by the Bosnians, as a plan to obtain NATO support by murdering their own people and then framing the innocent Serbs.


Despite its moral posturing about Serb ethnic cleansing, NATO itself has provided air cover for the same kinds of atrocities it now accuses the Serbs of committing. In 1995, NATO planes, responding to what many now suspect was a Bosnian-government-staged massacre of Muslim civilians, attacked and crippled the Bosnian Serb army with punishing air assaults.


It is true that this claim has been made by such as Radovan Karadzic, not the most credible of sources, but good enough for the Nation. But it was categorically rejected by the UN (see paragraphs 438 - 441 of link) for good reasons, as discussed by Richard Holbrooke ("To End A War", ch 6). It is known that five shells were fired. Four failed to detonate, so analysis of their impact permitted a clear identification of the point of origin, which was in Serb-controlled territory. For the Bosnians to have fired the fifth and fatal round, it would have been necessary for the Bosnians to have known ahead of time exactly where and when the attack would come, in order to disguise their own shell as part of it.


Taibbi's further complaints against NATO ranged from the openly racist ("The Serbs are one of the tallest, most beautiful European tribes. Somalis, too, are tall and elegant, as are the Tutsi, who actually call themselves `The Tall People.` Why are the most beautiful tribes being wiped out by the squat and ugly?") to the highly personal ("Until a few weeks ago, Western men in Moscow could always count on being given special attention by that most precious of God's creatures, the Russian dyevushka.... Not now. Thanks to the NATO airstrikes, the White God has become the White Devil. All bets are off.... The days of E-Z sex and multiple partners in a consequence-free environment are over, thanks to America's sexually-demented president. Now, dyevs don't swallow. They just spit. All because your stupid country had to go 'n' bomb the Serbs.")

The general practice, rather conspicuous above, of going the extra mile to be as offensive as possible was a habit of Taibbi and The eXile. One Taibbi essy, under the title "God Can Suck MY Dick", says:


After 9/11, I'm certain: every last person who believes in God should be swept off the streets, captured with big nets, thrown into maximum-security institutions, and forced to knit oven mitts and play Lite-Brite with each other until their deaths.

Despite what you may think, God people are not just incredibly stupid. They're dangerous. They make possible every kind of human idiocy. Why? Not just because they tend to be zealots who try to force their point of view on other people (indeed, most religions consider non-believers lost or damned); not just because they do things like level the World Trade Center or strap dynamite to themselves and walk into abortion clinics to kill teenage girls they don't even know. No, the big problem with God people is that they make patent absurdities a central fact in the lives of entire populations, so that if anyone by chance wants to live a reasonable life, he has to do so in private, apologetically, like a man walking half bent-over through a crowded subway car because he has an erection in his pants.


Some of The eXile's outrages, such as the above piece, at least make a point. Others are adolescent transgressions of the worst kind, offensive for the sake of being offensive, without actually saying anything interesting, or making any noticable satiric point, or even being tastelessly funny. Certainly after a taste of The eXile, it is unsurprising that Taibbi adopted the persona of a porn director for his 'research' into the Clark movement.


As for the article itself, there's little to say. There are few facts to debate; Taibbi deals mainly in pointless anecdotes and personal opinions. He begins by looking deep into the eyes of various candidates. In the eyes of Kucinich, he finds limpid pools of sincerity consistent with Kucinich's standing as the writer's chosen favorite. In Lieberman, he finds humor - perhaps the gentleman from Connecticut also finds it clever to pick out random strangers and talk to them about having sex with their mother's corpse. In Clark he sees nothing, although the nothing seems to resemble a turtle, and there's a picnic basket in there somewhere. See, it's a metaphor, and if you're too clueless to understand, just do what Matt would do: read the article over again, changing every noun to 'penis'.


Matt then goes undercover to attend meetups with Clark supporters, who make valiant attempts to be polite to him although he is telling bizarre lies that they probably see through. As a result of this daring investigation, he is in a position to report that Clarkies want to defeat Bush and consider that more important than memorizing every detail of Clark's platform. Not many reporters could dig up this discovery in a month or so of research - most would take more like 5 minutes.


Taibbi is at pains to challenge Clark's bona fides as an anti-war candidate. "It is not easy to explain how a man who voted for Reagan and Nixon, was a speechwriter for Al Haig, worked in the Ford White House alongside Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld and was a passionate supporter of the Vietnam War could become a darling of the liberal antiwar crowd. Thirty-five years ago, hundreds of thousands of people took angrily to the streets, universities were taken over and a sitting President was hounded from the White House because of people like Wesley Clark.... o person who found the Iraq war morally repugnant could have gone on television and talked sunnily about how this or that weapon was ravaging Iraqi defenses. I remember watching Clark on CNN, and at one point he was actually playing with a model of an A-10 tank-killer airplane, whooshing it back and forth over a map of Iraq, like a child playing with a new toy on Christmas morning. A person who was genuinely opposed to the war as wrongful killing would be sick even thinking about such a thing." True, Clark is opposed to fighting the wrong war for the wrong reason in the wrong way, but that isn't good enough for Matt. Any true anti-war man would be opposed to all wars - except for those fought by tall and beautiful tribes to eliminate the unpleasantly short and ugly.


Taibbi also drops broad hints that Clark's 'true colors' involve some sort of military-electoral coup. Clark is compared variously to Caesar, Cincinattus, and Nixon. And what does the would-be dictator like to eat? Napoleons - hint, hint.

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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. ironic thing about your post
It says "Taibbi deals mainly in pointless anecdotes and personal opinions."

This seems to mirror your post quite well
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. I'm am not writing in the nation...
Now Am I?

DUH!
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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. I don't care what you are doing
cry me a river


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. That's what I object to
Edited on Mon Dec-01-03 06:04 PM by Frenchie4Clark
at the onset of this thread......is being called names....

Mr. Blackman that has suffered at the hand of white biggoted people who think that they are better than you and think that they have all of the answers.....the liberal white bigots too!
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ultrafoil Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Kitty?
Which things are those?

Put up or shut up.
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ultrafoil Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Cut the irony
Make a point, kitty.

Impress us.
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OhioStateProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
17. i agree with every word you say
and I won't vote for Clark because of that, my fears

we don't need to further militarize the thought processes of America any longer...we are already the most violent people on the planet (to the planet as well)

don't let wishy washy PC centrists poke at you for what you say, we don't need some crew cut heartless general leading our coutnry
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. As previously stated to those who don't bother to read.....
Matt Taibbi's True Colors

For years now, I've turned to The Nation mostly for its terrific cryptic crosswords. But they also print articles, and, from following a Clark list, I learned that the current issue of the mag features a remarkably pointless pile of drivel allegedly concerning Wesley Clark, and written by one Matt Taibbi. Although the best part of the magazine, the puzzles, regrettably, don't seem to be available online. Even more regrettable, the drivel is.

The article suggests that Taibbi's wholly negative view of Clark and his supporters comes from his observation of the campaign; in fact, it goes back several years. Through the late 90s, Taibbi lived in Moscow where he co-edited and helped write an English language magazine called The eXile. The eXile was, to put it mildly, opposed to the war in Kosovo. In his writing Taibbi was an open apologist for some of the most notorious crimes of Slobodan Milosevic and his associates. Taibbi wrote a long article implying that the January 15, 1999 massacre of Albanian civilians at Racak never happened. The evidence of a massacre at Racak is extensive; according to Human Rights Watch, which took extensive testimony from survivors:


Precisely how the twenty-three men were killed by the police on the hill outside of Racak remains somewhat unclear. But witness testimony, as provided here, and the physical evidence found at the site by journalists and KVM monitors, makes it clear that most of these men were fired upon from close range as they offered no resistance. Some of them were apparently shot while trying to run away.

Journalists at the scene early on January 16 told Human Rights Watch that many of these twenty-three men also had signs of torture, such as missing finger nails. Their clothes were bloody, with slashes and holes at the same spots as their bullet entry and exits wounds, which argues against government claims that the victims were KLA soldiers who were dressed in civilian clothes after they had been killed. All of them were wearing rubber boots typical of Kosovo farmers rather than military footwear. It is possible that some of these men were defending their village in the morning and then went to the Osmani house once they saw the police entering the village. However, they clearly did not resist the police at the time of their capture or execution.


The massacre at Racak plays a prominent role in the indictment of Milosevic and his cronies for crimes against humanity. But Taibbi claims it was all a con job. To support this fantastic charge he offers no study of the evidence, but simply an examination of the resume of one witness, an American diplomat named William Walker who, as an official of the Kosovo Verification Mission of the OSCE, was among the first foreigners to enter Racak after the atrocities. Mr Walker, it seems, was previously stationed in Central America during the Contra War and related conflicts of the 1980s. Therefore, he is obviously CIA, proving clearly that the Racak massacre must have been a CIA trick. If Mr Walker were the only witness, that would be an ad hominem argument, but at least an argument. But since Walker 's statements were backed by many statements of survivors and other international observers, his own background is simply irrelevant.


The first armed NATO intervention in Yugoslavia took place at the end of August, 1995. The primary cause was the Srebrenica massacre which took place the preceding month, but the immediate spark was an artillery attack on the Sarajevo market that caused over 100 civilian casualties. Another Taibbi article suggests that this attack was staged by the Bosnians, as a plan to obtain NATO support by murdering their own people and then framing the innocent Serbs.


Despite its moral posturing about Serb ethnic cleansing, NATO itself has provided air cover for the same kinds of atrocities it now accuses the Serbs of committing. In 1995, NATO planes, responding to what many now suspect was a Bosnian-government-staged massacre of Muslim civilians, attacked and crippled the Bosnian Serb army with punishing air assaults.


It is true that this claim has been made by such as Radovan Karadzic, not the most credible of sources, but good enough for the Nation. But it was categorically rejected by the UN (see paragraphs 438 - 441 of link) for good reasons, as discussed by Richard Holbrooke ("To End A War", ch 6). It is known that five shells were fired. Four failed to detonate, so analysis of their impact permitted a clear identification of the point of origin, which was in Serb-controlled territory. For the Bosnians to have fired the fifth and fatal round, it would have been necessary for the Bosnians to have known ahead of time exactly where and when the attack would come, in order to disguise their own shell as part of it.


Taibbi's further complaints against NATO ranged from the openly racist ("The Serbs are one of the tallest, most beautiful European tribes. Somalis, too, are tall and elegant, as are the Tutsi, who actually call themselves `The Tall People.` Why are the most beautiful tribes being wiped out by the squat and ugly?") to the highly personal ("Until a few weeks ago, Western men in Moscow could always count on being given special attention by that most precious of God's creatures, the Russian dyevushka.... Not now. Thanks to the NATO airstrikes, the White God has become the White Devil. All bets are off.... The days of E-Z sex and multiple partners in a consequence-free environment are over, thanks to America's sexually-demented president. Now, dyevs don't swallow. They just spit. All because your stupid country had to go 'n' bomb the Serbs.")

The general practice, rather conspicuous above, of going the extra mile to be as offensive as possible was a habit of Taibbi and The eXile. One Taibbi essy, under the title "God Can Suck MY Dick", says:


After 9/11, I'm certain: every last person who believes in God should be swept off the streets, captured with big nets, thrown into maximum-security institutions, and forced to knit oven mitts and play Lite-Brite with each other until their deaths.

Despite what you may think, God people are not just incredibly stupid. They're dangerous. They make possible every kind of human idiocy. Why? Not just because they tend to be zealots who try to force their point of view on other people (indeed, most religions consider non-believers lost or damned); not just because they do things like level the World Trade Center or strap dynamite to themselves and walk into abortion clinics to kill teenage girls they don't even know. No, the big problem with God people is that they make patent absurdities a central fact in the lives of entire populations, so that if anyone by chance wants to live a reasonable life, he has to do so in private, apologetically, like a man walking half bent-over through a crowded subway car because he has an erection in his pants.


Some of The eXile's outrages, such as the above piece, at least make a point. Others are adolescent transgressions of the worst kind, offensive for the sake of being offensive, without actually saying anything interesting, or making any noticable satiric point, or even being tastelessly funny. Certainly after a taste of The eXile, it is unsurprising that Taibbi adopted the persona of a porn director for his 'research' into the Clark movement.


As for the article itself, there's little to say. There are few facts to debate; Taibbi deals mainly in pointless anecdotes and personal opinions. He begins by looking deep into the eyes of various candidates. In the eyes of Kucinich, he finds limpid pools of sincerity consistent with Kucinich's standing as the writer's chosen favorite. In Lieberman, he finds humor - perhaps the gentleman from Connecticut also finds it clever to pick out random strangers and talk to them about having sex with their mother's corpse. In Clark he sees nothing, although the nothing seems to resemble a turtle, and there's a picnic basket in there somewhere. See, it's a metaphor, and if you're too clueless to understand, just do what Matt would do: read the article over again, changing every noun to 'penis'.


Matt then goes undercover to attend meetups with Clark supporters, who make valiant attempts to be polite to him although he is telling bizarre lies that they probably see through. As a result of this daring investigation, he is in a position to report that Clarkies want to defeat Bush and consider that more important than memorizing every detail of Clark's platform. Not many reporters could dig up this discovery in a month or so of research - most would take more like 5 minutes.


Taibbi is at pains to challenge Clark's bona fides as an anti-war candidate. "It is not easy to explain how a man who voted for Reagan and Nixon, was a speechwriter for Al Haig, worked in the Ford White House alongside Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld and was a passionate supporter of the Vietnam War could become a darling of the liberal antiwar crowd. Thirty-five years ago, hundreds of thousands of people took angrily to the streets, universities were taken over and a sitting President was hounded from the White House because of people like Wesley Clark.... o person who found the Iraq war morally repugnant could have gone on television and talked sunnily about how this or that weapon was ravaging Iraqi defenses. I remember watching Clark on CNN, and at one point he was actually playing with a model of an A-10 tank-killer airplane, whooshing it back and forth over a map of Iraq, like a child playing with a new toy on Christmas morning. A person who was genuinely opposed to the war as wrongful killing would be sick even thinking about such a thing." True, Clark is opposed to fighting the wrong war for the wrong reason in the wrong way, but that isn't good enough for Matt. Any true anti-war man would be opposed to all wars - except for those fought by tall and beautiful tribes to eliminate the unpleasantly short and ugly.


Taibbi also drops broad hints that Clark's 'true colors' involve some sort of military-electoral coup. Clark is compared variously to Caesar, Cincinattus, and Nixon. And what does the would-be dictator like to eat? Napoleons - hint, hint.

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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. red herring

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:52 PM
Original message
more personal attacks by F4C

don't waste my time anymore, I've got better things to do

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
44. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Ahhh, more weak name calling, LOL!

Please try harder.

I'm officially bored and am leaving now
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #37
58. wow
what a sad post.
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dfgrbac Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #21
40. We can read, Frenchie4Clark!
You do not have to keep repeating yourself.
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ultrafoil Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. Look in the man's eyes.
Heart.

If you have one you can tell.

Plus, he's the next prez, good news for America!

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
45. If he were more like Smedley Butler, I'd be more supportive of him
but he's not.
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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. ME TOO
but again he's probably not
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #47
61. I think I'd scooch that 'probably'
over there further towards the 'almost certainly' area.
:)
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dfgrbac Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #45
55. Smedley Butler
Now there is a "General" I could vote for!
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #55
62. Yep, and we're not alone
Butler is a hero, and many, many veterans and families of veterans would 'march' ( ;) ) to the polls to support someone taking such a brave stand against wars for empire.
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Punkingal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
64. I'm locking...
calling out another poster.
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