Microsoft To Grassley: We're Still Using H-1Bs, No 'Moral Imperative' To Hire Americans

Microsoft To Grassley: We're Still Using H-1Bs, No 'Moral Imperative' To Hire Americans
http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-to-grassley-were-still-using-h-1bs-no-moral-imperative-to-hire-americans-2009-3">The Business Insider

Last month, Senator Chuck Grassley (R-IA) sent a letter to Microsoft (MSFT) calling the company on the carpet for its outspoken support for the H-1B program even as it undergoes thousands of layoffs. The Senator went on to tell the company it has a "moral imperative" to put the jobs of US citizens over foreigners in the country on a skilled worker visa.

While Microsoft reps have already said they "certainly" will continue to hire H-1B workers, today the company made its formal response to Grassley.

It's pretty much what you expect. In polite terms, Microsoft makes clear:

* It's "too early" to tell how H-1B workers vs US citizens will be impacted by the layoffs, since they're ongoing. That's a bit of a dodge.
* Microsoft reminds Grassley, as we've noted, they're bound by civil rights laws not to discriminate on the basis of nationality.
* Microsoft re-iterates its support for the H-1B program in general.
* The company acknowledges H-1B fraud exists, but insists they comply with both the letter and spirit of the law.
* Microsoft reminds the Senator of its (somewhat self-serving) "Elevate America" job retraining program, and their commitment to helping the American worker through education.

So no surprises. But even though the political wind is clearly blowing against the H-1B program with new restrictions in effect as part of the stimulus package, Reid Hoffman, Senator Chuck Schumer (D-NY), and Microsoft are all still outspoken in their support of the program. This debate seems far from over.

Microsoft's full letter to Grassley is http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-to-grassley-were-still-using-h-1bs-no-moral-imperative-to-hire-americans-2009-3">here.

:dunce:


No Windows 7 for me. Once my sound card is supported, it's back to Linux. Ubuntu was rather nice...

one of his donors runs a large nursing home filled with HB1 Visa Nurses. In fact some of these Nurses went to court to protest their condition. This is when we discovered the....hot links get your hot links

In fact, they are bound by law to their shareholders, not any country. That is why it's incumbent upon any nation with a self-preservation instinct to pass laws protecting its own jobs. Yes, the dreaded "p" word. Protectionism. Microsoft is right that it has no moral imperative to give Americans jobs. It needs to have a legal one imposed on it.

if corporations in turn aren't going to do their part?

That's a huge conflict of interest.

And other countries are engaging in protectionism.

If Microsoft gets even a dime of taxpayer money ("subsidy"), perhaps that should be reconsidered too.

I also like the "T" word a lot as in tariffs. And I'd triple tariff Microsoft if I could.

duty is to its Investors.

With and Reagan and the Free Market Principles, this became one
of the first principles. Companies only duty is to Investors.
They have no responsibility to workers or even the country
for that matter.

Add on:

The Investors crack the whip--make more money for us. The company
then does everything in their power to increase profits. Lay off
Americans and hire H 1-B Visa Personnel at much lower salary.
No responsibility to the Country or American Workers.

Which is another reason why products get crappier and crappier -- no oversight, much less anything else.

Apparently it's a good thing.

:shrug:

.. but there are plenty of companies that are run by people who aren't the moral equivalent of mobsters.

Fuck Microsoft.

various programs from time to time and I have a web site, database, etc.

How difficult is it to do it on your own if you don't call yourself a techie?

They disgust me. This news is sending me over the edge against them. Sometimes I feel rage just using their product. Sometimes I feel they are insulting me and then talughing about it.

They issue monthly fixes for holes and then Welcome Me when I turn the bloddy thing on - they don't even allow me to pretend it's my computer.

>>>They disgust me. This news is sending me over the edge against them. Sometimes I feel rage just using their product. Sometimes I feel they are insulting me and then talughing about it.

OK, so what's stopping you from not using their products ever again if that's the case?

If news sends you over the edge against anybody, switch off the news channels, stop reading the newspapers, and do not go to news web sites. Believe me, it's not too difficult, and will help you more if you can control your rage.

It was recently proven that anger/rage results in an increased probability of heart attacks.

Rein In the Rage: Anger and Heart Disease
Experts explore the connection between anger and heart disease, and give tips for getting your anger under control.
http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/features/rein-in-rage-anger-heart-disease

The other choice is to apply rational thought and consider both sides of the coin before being enraged. Does require a little patience.

hth,
jazz

To allow Microsoft to keep operating under its current management. Since they got to where they are primarily via the manipulation of the US legal system, and they hold no allegiance to the US, then the US should likewise hold no allegiance to Microsoft. Their assets should be seized in entirety and redistributed to those by whose permission the success of Microsoft came to pass.

Are you a Microsoft shareholder? I didn't think so! :)

jazz

Just a person who liked a lot of products from a lot of companies with superior products that M$ lawyered/cheated out of business.

For example??

And I bet you seriously think every other corporation out there is completely above board in fighting competition, including Apple and Google?

"Lawyering" is part of American business - it's a company's right to use all available legal means to protect its products, marketshare, and profits.

As far as "cheated" goes, I doubt there's any credible evidence of this allegation besides the anti-trust case for which Microsoft has paid a very high price and still continues to pay on a regular basis.

We could go on and on and make this a Microsoft v/s the rest argument... which would be missing the point completely.

jazz

I suppose you've heard of products like Netscape Navigator, Novell Netware, and WordPerfect - all products that M$ put out of business by pure brute force.

I seriously doubt you'll encounter any person familiar with any of those products and the Microsoft tactics which destroyed them who believes it to be a result of free and fair competition.

Then there are all the companies that M$ acquired by threatening to do the same to, quite a large number.

It all goes back to "cheating and getting away with it" having become an American cultural value.

if American software developers have to compete with Indian software developers here, where they are paid a good U.S. salary than if they compete with the same developers in India. Software is not an industry that can be contained by geography. What we need is to educate our kids and ourselves so that we can compete with these people. They value hard work and education; we value football. If WE don't change, we'll get our asses kicked by them regardless of where they live.

There's no analysis in the OP. Did you mean to reply to me?

As for competitiveness, Microsoft is the biggest American employer of H1Bs, but their strategy of cost cutting by importing cheap labor seems to have lost them the edge over the years. They consistently release inferior copycat products, such as the Zune. Their latest OS, Vista, has been somewhat of a disaster for them on many levels. Now they're attempting to re-enter the search engine market with the weak roll-out of Kumo.

Compare that to Google and Apple, both of which put their focus on hiring top talent at top pay, a strategy which appears to have paid better dividends in terms of innovative product development and growth.

As to your comment regarding football, one could just as easily say Indians are obsessed with the game of Cricket. I think it's a bit offensive to lump entire countries together. India may value education, to some extent, but it is only available to a lucky few and it's paid for on the backs of the hundreds of millions of impoverished workers. If you judge by the percent of the population seeking higher education, Americans actually appear to value education much more, even to the point of putting ourselves in enormous debt to pay for it.

that won't be resolved by importing programming talent from abroad - mostly by a lack of vision in recent years, imo. However, I don't have the impression they have trouble attracting bright people, and, to the extent they do, it's because young people are more attracted to companies they perceive to be up-and-coming innovators not their father's software company, so to speak. Also, I live on the west coast where a LOT of people work in software or other high tech, and I think most of us would be very happy earning what the average software developer makes.

Regardless of anything specific to Microsoft or any single company, my point is that this isn't like the auto industry, where we can avoid competing with foreign talent by keeping them outside of our borders.

I do see immigrant families from India and SE Asia encouraging their kids to succeed in science and technology, which they do in numbers that put US-born Americans to shame. I've worked with a lot of middle and high school students in STEM (science, technology, engineering & math) education in recent years, and you can bet that kids whose parents are likely here on H1B Visas will be way overrepresented among the top prize-winners at every science fair or whatever. Americans still think this stuff is geeky, and that's why we are losing ground to our immigrant friends.

Couldn't agree with you more, and thanks for the general tone of your message.

I live in a Silicon Valley city with a large number of immigrant families from India/China/SE Asia. The obsession with education and academics is crazy at times, but we need to realize this is the world we live in and compete in. In this hyper-competitive world, you blink, you lose. OK, maybe I'm exaggerating a little... just a little - but I only mean to underscore the competitive nature of these times...

So, either we compete head-on, or continue to behave as if nothing has changed in our Utopian world.

jazz

Do you think Google and Apple don't hire folks on H1B?

Instead of targeting systemic flaws in the H1B program you are targeting an employer which has created close to 100,000 jobs, most of them in the United States! You are targeting a huge American success story! If you haven't noticed already, according to Microsoft's response the number of H1B employees is minor, and is certainly not unusual by any means.

You cannot summarize from any statistic that Microsoft's strategy is to hire H1B workers and fire Americans. If that's what you're implying, it's a figment of your imagination and certainly not based on any facts.

It's sad to note the United States has not put its weight behind this American success story as it struggles against European antitrust regulations which still seem to be getting the company into trouble for things like bundling a web browser with an OS (what a novel concept)!

As far as Indians being obsessed by cricket goes - there's a minuscule percentage of Indians who are obsesses by cricket, or any game for that matter. In a nation that has plenty of its own struggles, the luxury of being obsessed with a sport is simply not there! This is not to say interest in sports is bad - not by a long shot. However, if you consider what the poster truly meant to say - our kids are more interested in sports than in school and studies, generally speaking.

There are a lucky few, gifted, hard-working, and talented kids who will make a career out of sports and become huge success stories. For the rest of us, a balance between sports and academics is very much necessary and required. As we're seeing, we're in this together, competing against a global workforce.

As you may already know, the technology business knows no geographical boundaries. If we don't innovate and make the cool doodads in this country, we'll keep sliding further behind. If some sharp kids on H1Bs can come help us do that, and keep the balance of innovation and technology on our side, so be it.

I'm all for better management of the H1B program - to bring the real talent here. And a better immigration system, to keep the talent here without them having to spend **A DECADE OR MORE** chasing a stupid green card and eventual citizenship. No, we're not opening the floodgates for the world - if we can just focus on picking some of the best brains, success will be more achievable and sustainable.

Hope that helps!
jazz

on cost-cutting and copying innovators as well as squeezing their customers with licensing fees. They've spent a lot of money lobbying to raise H1B caps, and they are by far the biggest American employer of H1Bs. The last study I saw showed their H1B employees earned significantly less than their American born and visa holding employees.

Don't kid yourself, Cricket is huge in India, and growing. http://www.newsweek.com/id/43341

As far as your ideas on competition go, I've tutored many Asian-American students over the years. Often they face heavy pressure from their parents, and sometimes it borders on outright abuse. I don't think Americans should copy the Asian high-competition, high-stress model. I've seen too many burn out fast and end up extremely unhappy. I've got a friend who went to medical school because of family pressure. She hates practicing medicine and is miserable.

Japan is a country that has invested heavily in education, has a highly technically-educated population and has a history of major technological innovation. Yet they are economy is suffering enormously and has been shrinking for over a decade.

I would argue that the solution to our problems is not what you believe it is. New gadgets are fun, new medicine can extend lives, but "if you build it, they will come" is not a viable economic model. We could easily end up like Russia, where genius level mathematicians and chemists work as janitors and bus drivers because there is no demand for their skills.

For one, Microsoft is not really about "cost cutting" at all, not until recently anyway. Their benefits package, for example, is known to be very good even by industry standards. It wouldn't surprise me if their H1B's made less than average given that H1B holders are typically new employees straight out of college.

Second, your description of Japan as "suffering enormously" is also off. Even according to the official GDP numbers put out has merely been growing slowly the last 20 years, not shrinking. By all accounts, Japan remains a very wealthy nation. The reality is that Japan (as a matter of policy) plays up their weaknesses so that 1) they won't be hassled on trade and 2)their currency remains undervalued for the benefit of their exporters.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/30/japan-economy-data-markets-econ-0130_markets2.html
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jan2002/jap-j14.shtml
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_22/b4036068.htm


You can have the most educated citizens in the world, design the most technologically advanced buildings and products, create the most brilliant art and music, but none of that matters if you don't have the proper social, political and economic environment to support these innovations. Ask the Egyptians, the Romans, the Mayans, the Mesopotamians, etc.. or better yet, just take a trip to Dubai.

In this economy, no company needs to look overseas to find qualified workers. Microsoft admitted in their letter to Grassley that they were doing it to save money.

Here's what Microsoft says in the letter:



The 5000 jobs to go are not limited to the United States.



Note, I did not find anything in the letter that states or implies that Microsoft is hiring H1B workers to save money.

And (emphasis added):


Nevertheless, if the media decides to spin it one way, given the current atmosphere, I wouldn't blame ordinary citizens for having their opinions shaped in a certain manner. Unfortunately, the current media outlook towards Microsoft, a great American success story, borders on the hostile side. Unfortunately, even educated folks fall prey to the designs or our so-called independent American media and their masters. Unfortunately, a good majority of us shy away from the real issues. Unfortunately, and as has been pointed out any number of times in the past, blindly trusting media of our choice without thinking about the proverbial other side of the coin is what has been dividing this country for a long time now.

(NOTE: I do not claim to be immune to this media-infused hysteria myself. I've let my opinions and decisions be shaped by it. Jon Stewart did an excellent job last night unveiling the so-called economy and stock market pundits like Jim Cramer and the gang on CNBC.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/economy-watch/2009/03/daily_shows_jon_stewart_rips_c.html?hpid=topnews)

With a headline that says: "Microsoft To Grassley: We're Still Using H-1Bs, No 'Moral Imperative' To Hire Americans (MSFT)", how dare we think Microsoft could do any good to this country??

The fact is, Microsoft does an excellent job of policing itself. It still has more innovation up its sleeves than many competitors (take a look at Microsoft Research...media coverage in the last few days). And even after the recently announced layoffs, it continues to hire today. (The net job losses would be in the range of 2000-3000, as stated in the Microsoft letter).

It's time we stop this disinformation campaign and concentrate on the real issues. Microsoft did not cause the economic collapse in the United States and the world.

hth,
jazz

Agreed completely. And I believe you agree that a balance is required, as also the willingness and ability to compete.

From Fareed Zakaria's best-seller The Post-American World :
It's time to swing the pendulum of innovation, entrepreneurship and business back in the favor of the United States. It will take a lot of work, and as President Obama repeatedly reminds us - it won't be easy.

What's really easy is passing on the buck. And blaming Microsoft for the mess.

jazz

First of all, the stock market is a poor gauge of economic health, particularly so in Japan where it's role in the overall financial system is secondary. Second, even in the articles you list there is a lot of crying about unemployment rates that reach up to 5% at their worst. Third, Japan's customers are in big trouble so it is not surprising that exports would dip precipitously and take down GDP a bit with it.

Over the last 20 years or so, if you look at the official GDP numbers Japan's performance has been roughly comparable to Europe (better than Germany or France, for example), but you don't hear a comparable stream of "bad news" coming out of Europe. Why is that? Basically the authorities in Japan like it that way. Japan is a capital exporting nation and doesn't gain anything from tooting its own horn because it doesn't need foreign investment. The US's overly optismistic projections of itself are the flip side of this -- our dependence on foreign investment has us continually selling ourselves (just last week Hillary Clinton was busy selling our prospects to the Chinese). This is part of the reason why we have a hard time getting our heads around the idea that Japan is faking it, but it really makes perfect sense when you realize we have been faking it to in the other direction.

For more info along this line I recommend Eamonn Fingleton's article back in 2002 concerning Japan's "lost decade"...
http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=5408


The final point is that even if you take all this stuff at face value, it is undeniable that over the long haul Japan has done remarkably well considering where they were in 1850, or 1945 for that matter.


Concerning Dubai -- it's just a small city-state -- not much innovation occurs in Dubai; they are almost completely dependent on foreign help. Their leaders have done well to make Dubai a financial and tourist hub in a region, but their foundation is still weak even compared to a comparable city-state like Singapore.

Agree with your points :hi: