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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 03:03 PM
Original message
Situation grave at world's largest nuclear plant
do we need to have many of these plants in America?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/7/18/92527/0219

by Deep Harm
Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 06:25:27 AM PDT
The world's largest nuclear plant, the Kashiwazaki-Kariwa plant, experienced a fire and damage after two earthquakes on Monday. Accounts of the damage worsen with each new report, and now data indicate that the plant sits directly over a fault line. The plant's seven reactors are currently shut down, but keeping them safely shut down will be difficult. If technicians cannot keep cooling water flowing to the radioactive cores, those could overheat, resulting in a meltdown and massive release of radiation. The head of the UN's International Atomic Energy Agency has urged Japanese authorities to investigate the accident fully.



Duct knocked out of place in major vent; possible leak of radioactive cobalt-60 and chromium-51 from five of the plant's reactors.
Water leak inside buildings housing all seven reactors.
Malfunctioning of water intake screening pump at two reactors.
Blowout panel knocked down at turbine buildings at two reactors.
Oil leak from low-activation transformer waste oil pipes at two reactors.
Loss in water-tight seal at reactor core cooling system.
Water leaks from diesel generator facility, burst extinguisher pipe, burst condenser valve and filtration tank.
Broken connections and broken bolt at electric transformer.
Loss of power at control center for liquid waste disposal facility.
Oil leaks from damaged transformer and magnetic transformer facility.
Oil leak at reactor water supply pump facility.
Disrupted electrical connection at magnetic transformer facility.
Cracks in embankment of water intake facility.
Air and oil leaks at switching stations.
Land under parts of plant turned to mud in quake-caused process known as liquefaction.
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hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. Never build anything on a fault.
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Uben Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Technically, you are wrong
There are a couple of things you actually want to build on top of a fault. Bush's house and CHeney's house! He he he!
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hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Inside an active caldera would be better
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. If we want baseload electricity for our grid without burning coal, then "yes."
But, we can choose to just keep burning coal. There are always choices.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. And in this case, someone made a bad choice building this plant on an active fault
and pray to the Goddess there won't be any strong aftershocks...
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I can imagine better places to site a power plant.
Any negative public-health implications remain purely in the realm of speculation and/or innuendo.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. This accident/event isn't over yet - any claim there are no public health implications
Edited on Wed Jul-18-07 04:07 PM by jpak
is also speculation.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. Of course there's health implications
9 people died in building collapses, another 1,000 were injured, hundreds are now homeless and a good 10,000 were left without water or power.

Not that anybody seems to give a fuck unless there's radioactivity involved, but I thought I'd mention it.

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Xipe Totec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. How do you say Chernobyl in Japanese?
:scared:
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. "Fear Mongering"
Sorry, I don't have the Kanji for it.

--p!
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. How many million curies of fission products are contained in those *damaged* reactors??
and what are the consequences if even a small fraction of that material is released into the environment????

Fear mongering indeed...
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Enough to turn every man, woman and child on earth into a superhero.
If administered via a spider bite.

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. You have made an important technical error here.
In Japan, releases of radiation usually do not create superheros. Generally they are responsibile for monster formation.

I cannot believe that a technical person like yourself has not grasped this given the international prominence of Godzilla and Rodan and the Monster Zero.

It is covered in peer reviewed journals.

Please see, for instance, Tanaka, T., Int. J. of Radioactive Mutants and Monsters, Vol 8, No. 21, pp 89-144 (1955) "Bayesan Modular Form Approximation to Gamma Ray Intensity and Casuality Relationships and Mutagenic Induced Revivication of Psuedo-Triassic Species in the Sea of Japan: A Plastic Curve Statistical Analysis of Observed Incidences."

See also Tanaka's now famous review article in Tetragens Vol 13, 34, pp 55-144 (1987). "Post Mothra Theory of Radiomonster Induction: A Review."
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. And where are those materials?
They are in the undamaged containment systems.

The consequences if even a small fraction of that material is released into the environment?(???)

We know pretty well how nuclear radiation works. Provide a particular number, and we have a good idea what to expect -- except that we routinely overestimate the damage in order to err on the side of caution.

"It's only a matter of time before the next reactor blows!" But it's also only a matter of time before al-Qaeda attacks us again. It's only a matter of time until your kid takes drugs and gets AIDS. It's only a matter of time until the Communists are marching on Avenue of the Americas, gleefully bayoneting Christians who don't renounce Jesus Christ. And it's only a matter of time before the next hundred-km asteroid plows into the globe like a cosmic cannonball.

We can't live in fear. Caution is always healthy, but paranoia is not.

--p!
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. Unlike you, I know pretty well what the total magnitude of the release is.
I'd tell you, but you're not very good with numbers and there is essentially a zero probability that you would understand it.

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. You claimed the volume of liquid released from plant was 1.5 liters...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=103672&mesg_id=103711

The reported volume was >1000 liters...

http://www.stratfor.com/products/premium/read_article.php?id=292574

TEPCO has not released the quantities of radionuclides released during this accident.

You know nothing...
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Tepco has stated the quantity, actually...
Edited on Thu Jul-19-07 04:58 PM by Dead_Parrot
http://www.tepco.co.jp/cc/press/07071604-j.html

It's just that nobody at Greenpeace reads Japanese, so it hasn't filtered down to you yet.

That's the equivalent of 25 smoke alarms, to put a little perspective on things: Naturally, everything in the sea of Japan is turning into a mutant zombie at this very moment.

edit: In case you're worried about the date, they've confirmed the amount here
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. According to google,
恐れの販売

If your fonts are up to it. :)
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Cool!
Okay, I recognize "go" ... or is it "no" ... ?

--p!
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I think it's "Po"
As in, "I'm so terrified of nuclear power I think I've just raised the fear level to Code Brown"

(hint for the etymologically challenged :))
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
13. My God! FOUR oil leaks!?
The IAEA better not investigate my car - I'll be in deep shit. I'll be blogged about on DK and written about by Greenpeace and turn everyone in the Wairarapa into a giant fucking brain-eating mutant.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
17. Where are the posts telling us how safe nuclear power is?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/japan/story/0,,2129237,00.html
...

On another day of embarrassment for Japan's nuclear power industry, the Tokyo Electric Power company , which operates the plant, said the amount of radioactivity in water that leaked into the sea during the earthquake was 50% higher than it originally said. The firm blamed a calculation error and said the levels were still well within safety standards.

It also said that 400 drums of low-level radioactive waste - not 100 originally reported - had toppled over during the quake. About 40 lost their lids, spilling their contents on to the ground. The spillage was one of more than 50 malfunctions the plant experienced in the immediate aftermath of the quake.

International nuclear inspectors said they were concerned by Tepco's apparent lack of preparedness for such a powerful earthquake.

"It is clear that this earthquake ... was stronger than the reactor was designed for," Mohamed ElBaradei, the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, told reporters in Kuala Lumpur.

...
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DODI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. I can't find any info on what was in the drums. They could be
full of used PCs, gloves, used tools, but who knows. The term low level nuclear waste covers a lot of territory. Heck, my husband spent a year digging up cannisters of "low level waste" in a pit the Navy left in Connecticut (preparing for green fielding) some of the cannisters had traces of U-238 and U-235 in them and he picked up more dose getting an x-ray for his teeth than he did doing that. Yes, the amount leaked into the sea was 50% higher than originally reported, but from what I have read it was 1 billionth of what is allowed.

Is nuclear safe -- no, but no major power generation is, but it is well regulated - yes. The issues in Japan are not huge but raise good questions. What happened there will only help lower the risks and help make nuclear even safer.

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. I've posted a few thousand of them.
I'm planning on a few thousand more.

You got a problem with them?

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
23. a kick for the copycatters
n/t
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