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Wind power need not be backed up by an equal amount of reserve power

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 05:39 PM
Original message
Wind power need not be backed up by an equal amount of reserve power
http://www.sciencecentric.com/news/07120411.htm

The production of wind power varies and is harder to forecast than the fluctuations in electricity demand. Adding large quantities of wind power to power systems is therefore challenging. The power system impacts of wind power were studied in international collaboration coordinated by VTT Technical Research Centre of Finland. The results indicate that the frequently stated claim of wind power requiring an equal amount of reserve power for back-up is not correct. A substantial adjustment tolerance is already built in to our power network, and the impacts of wind power fluctuations can be further balanced through a variety of measures.

The collaboration within the International Energy Agency (IEA) Implementing Agreement for Wind Energy, coordinated by VTT, has resulted in the publication of the first state-of-the-art report assessing the international experience gained on the system impacts of wind power.


<snip>

Current wind power technology makes it possible for wind power plants to support the grid in the event of faults such as significant voltage drops and to participate in voltage regulation. Wind power plants are also able to limit their production fluctuations. The grid reinforcement needs due to wind power vary in different countries depending on how far from the consumption centres the wind power plants are constructed and how strong the existing national grid is.

Even though wind power is mainly an energy resource that replaces fossil power generation, it can also be used for replacing existing power plant capacity. In areas where wind power production is high during peak demand, wind power can replace other capacity by up to 40% of the installed wind power capacity. However, when a larger share, more than 30%, of electricity is produced by wind power and in areas where the wind power production is low during peak demand, wind power can only replace other capacity by 5—10% of the wind power capacity.

<more>

(and bookmarked)
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. I can just hear our pro-nuke friend shrieking in anger at this report...
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. (...)
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I was thinking more along the lines of when Dorothy poured water
on the Wicked Witch of the West.

"I'm MELLLLTTIIIIINNNNNNGGGG!!!!!!!!"
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. On the other hand, I could merely produce a scientific paper on the subject.
But that wouldn't be as much fun as producing an illiterate internet link, would it?

Now, I wouldn't expect illiterate anti-nukes to understand much of this paper, because it has unpleasant things like data and equations and math, but the spinning reserve requirements of wind energy vary from place to place.

http://www.etsap.org/worksh_6_2003/2003P_liik.pdf

I quote:

A simplified two-step method for calculation of real fuel consumption and emissions under absence of dynamic input-output characteristics of thermal power plants is proposed in this paper. Estonian case study shows that the integration of considerable capacity of wind turbines would increase the fuel consumption and emissions of thermal stations about 8-10%, which will reduce the environmental effect of windmills substantially. There can be situations where probably no environmental gain can be achieved at all.

It is vitally important to continue the discussion about the ability of power systems
to integrate large amounts of wind power and to develop further the methods for the
calculation of emission reductions.


Of course, the Estonians - who decided to go in with its sister Baltic States on a new nuclear plant - have examined only their local case with respect to spinning reserve.

In fact, Estonia is not part of the illiterate car culture of dangerous fossil fuel waste apologists, and they couldn't care less what Western yuppie car culture brats recite in their curious little religion.

It is probably the case, too, that wind power does not increase the emissions of dangerous fossil fuels in places like Iowa, but, on the other hand, wind power is not now, and probably never will be, an alternative to nuclear power. Nuclear power requires no spinning reserve, since nuclear plants operate at the highest capacity utilization of any form of industrial energy known, close to 90%.

Now. I realize that in the little anti-nuke religion, there is very little consideration of concepts like "capacity utilization" and "spinning reserve," but the fact remains that the capacity utilization of nuclear power plants is close to 90%, whereas the capacity utilization of wind plants in the US is close to 20%.

I always say, if you have no fucking idea what you're talking about, make stuff up.

I often told in this space by little whiny yuppie car culture brats what I am supposed to be allowed to say and not be allowed to say. I have heard recently objections from little whiny yuppie car culture brats about my use of the concept of "whiny little car culture brats" and also about my use of the accurate term "dangerous fossil fuel waste" and "dangerous fossil fuel terrorism," and "dangerous fossil fuel war."

I would never dream of telling another writer here what he or she can say, but I will note that I would prefer not to be identified as a "friend" of the dangerous fossil fuel promoting anti-nuke cult. I am not the friend of any members of this religion, since this religion is directly trying to harm my family by trying to shut the largest, by far, air pollution free form of energy on this planet.

Ignorance KILLS. It is trying to KILL in my neighboring state, where ignoramuses with poor educations are attacking the Indian Point nuclear station, and it is trying to KILL here in New Jersey, where ignorant fossil fuel apologists are trying to shut Oyster Creek. I am not amused. In fact, if you must know, I am outraged by the deliberate assault on the flesh of my family.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Does science progress?
The study cited at the beginning of this thread is almost a month old:

http://www.vtt.fi/uutta/2007/20071114.jsp

Wind power need not be backed up by an equal amount of reserve power

14.11.2007

...

The collaboration within the International Energy Agency (IEA) Implementing Agreement for Wind Energy, coordinated by VTT, has resulted in the publication of the first state-of-the-art report assessing the international experience gained on the system impacts of wind power.

...


The study you cite is a little over 4 years old, using a smaller dataset.

International Energy Workshop

24-26 June 2003, IIASA, Laxenburg, Austria

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. I guess, since your link is in Finnish, you can claim it says whatever you want it to say.
That's pretty much how most religion's treat science, the anti-nuke religion not excepted. You can find creationists "interpreting" radioactive decay and genetics, and you can find anti-nukes "interpreting" energy data. It's identical when you break it down.

If wind were as great as in your fantasies, it would produce a single exajoule of energy per year, out of the 488 exajoules now being used. It doesn't.

All the hand waving in the world won't change that fact.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. This year, global wind power (91 GW) will produce 0.86-1.0 ex-o-jewels of electricity
...and suggesting that any one energy technology (and especially nuclear power) can replace 488 EJ per year - mostly oil, gas and coal - is just plain ignorant and/or disingenuous.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. You're far too quick to accuse others of ignorance...
Edited on Wed Dec-05-07 01:56 PM by OKIsItJustMe
Apparently, you didn't bother to follow the link. Or, if you did, you did not bother to click on the "In English" link once you got there.

http://www.vtt.fi/uutta/2007/20071114.jsp?lang=en

"A gentleman will not insult me, and no man not a gentleman can insult me."

- Frederick Douglass

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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. For others who may be curious
The full report, Design and operation of power systems with large amounts of wind power can be downloaded (and read) here:
http://www.vtt.fi/inf/pdf/workingpapers/2007/W82.pdf

(Of course, there's no need to actually read it before dismissing its findings.)

9. Conclusions and discussion

High penetration of wind power has impacts that have to be managed through proper plant interconnection, integration, transmission planning, and system and market operations. Several issues that impact on the amount of wind power that can be integrated have been identified. Large balancing areas and aggregation benefits of large areas help in reducing the variability and forecast errors of wind power as well as help in pooling more cost effective balancing resources. System operation and working electricity markets at less than day-ahead time scales help reduce forecast errors of wind power. Transmission is the key to aggregation benefits, electricity markets and larger balancing areas.

Integration cost can be divided into different components arising from the increase in the operational balancing cost and grid expansion cost. The value of the capacity credit of wind power can also be stated. Integration costs of wind power need to be compared to something, like the production costs or market value of wind power, or integration cost of other production forms. It is important to note whether a market cost has been estimated or whether the results refer to technical cost for the power system. There is also benefit when adding wind power to power systems: it reduces the total operating costs and emissions as wind replaces fossil fuels. In this report only the cost component has been analysed. The case studies summarized are not easy to compare due to different methodology and data used, as well as different assumptions on the interconnection capacity available.

Wind generation may require system operators to carry additional operating reserves. Windνs variability cannot be treated in isolation from the load variability inherent in the system. From the investigated studies it follows that at wind penetrations of up to 20% of gross demand (energy), system operating cost increases arising from wind variability and uncertainty amounted to about 1-4 €/MWh. This is 10% or less of the wholesale value of the wind energy. The actual impact of adding wind generation in different balancing areas can vary depending on local factors. From a first review of methodology some important factors were identified to reduce integration costs, such as aggregating wind plant output over large geographical regions, larger balancing areas, and operating the power system closer to the delivery hour.

With current technology, wind power plants can be designed to meet industry expectations such as riding through voltage dips, supplying reactive power to the system, controlling terminal voltage, and participating in SCADA system operation with output and ramp rate control. Grid reinforcement may be needed for handling larger power flows and maintaining a stable voltage, and is commonly needed if new generation is installed in weak grids far from load centers. The cost of grid reinforcements due to wind power is therefore very dependent on where the wind power plants are located relative to load and grid infrastructure, and one must expect numbers to vary from country to country. The grid reinforcement costs from studies in this report vary from 50 €/kW to 160 €/kW. The costs are not continuous; there can be single very high cost reinforcements, and there can also be differences in how the costs are allocated to wind power. It is also important to note that grid reinforcements in general should be held up against the option of curtailing wind or altering operation of other generation.

Wind generation will also provide some additional load carrying capability to meet forecasted increases in system demand. This contribution can be up to 40% of installed capacity if wind power production at times of high load is high, and down to 5% in higher penetrations or if local wind characteristics correlate negatively with the system load profile. Aggregating larger areas benefits the capacity credit of wind power.

State-of-the-art best practices so far include (i) capturing the smoothed out variability of wind power production time series for the geographic diversity assumed and utilising wind forecasting best practice for the uncertainty of wind power production (ii) examining wind variation in combination with load variations, coupled with actual historic utility load and load forecasts (iii) capturing system characteristics and response through operational simulations and modelling and (iv) examining actual costs independent of tariff design structure.

For high penetration levels of wind power, the optimisation of the integrated system should be explored. Modifications to system configuration and operation practices to accommodate high wind penetration may be required. Not all current system operation techniques are designed to correctly incorporate the characteristics of wind generation and surely were not developed with that objective in mind. Increasing system flexibility through such means as transmission to neighbouring areas, demand side management and optimal use of storage (e.g. pumping hydro or thermal) will impact the amount of wind that can be integrated cost effectively. There is growing recognition of the need to assess wind power integration at the international level to identify the needs and benefits of interconnection of national power systems in achieving stated policy goals of accommodating higher levels of renewable energy penetration.

This state-of-the-art report presents a summary of only selected, recently finished studies. In the final report, due end of 2008, there will be more studies included from the participating countries. Classifying power systems and giving rough estimates for wind integration impact remains the task for the final report of IEA WIND Task 25. Wind integration has been studied to wind penetration levels of 10-20% of gross demand (up to 50% of peak load). What happens in larger penetration levels, where wind becomes dominating part of power system, is still unclear — the future power systems may also provide different options for flexibility in demand side that do not exist today. Furthermore, if solar power takes off like wind power has, it will need to be incorporated into integration studies in similar manner and in many regions this will help smoothing the variability of individual technologies.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. Yup, New Jersey Governor Corzine (D. Ignoramus) is opposed to relicensing Oyster Creek
http://a4nr.org/library/folder.2006-03-24.4862377158/08.03.2006-asburyparkpress

NEPTUNE — In his most decisive statement on the issue to date, Gov. Jon Corzine said today that he is against the federal government relicensing the Oyster Creek nuclear power plant in Lacey for another 20-year term.

"I don't think this should be relicensed for 20 years under any circumstances, just because there's been too much concern about breakdowns,'' Corzine said. "I don't think you can give assurances about anything.''

"We have to be safe first, and intellectually honest,'' he said. "I would like to know what the status of that plant is.''

Corzine made his comments during a meeting with the Asbury Park Press editorial board.

<more>

What New Jersey doesn't need are ignorant anti-nuclear cultists of the Democrat Party - what it needs is a fine pro-nuclear Republican governor - like Christie Todd Whitman...

http://www.counterpunch.org/farsetta08292007.html
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razzleberry Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 03:13 AM
Response to Original message
5. if a third-world(reliability) electrical system is acceptable ...
you can get by with less spinning reserve

I want to hear some US politician say
that 'fifteen blackouts of only ten minutes each, a day,'
is good enough.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. And what do you base your criticism on?
Have you read the study?

Do you have even the first idea even about what it says?
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razzleberry Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Choose one : reserve, interruptable customers, or blackouts
let's face reality.

the electrical grid is not going to strengthened
just to make wind better.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 05:00 AM
Response to Original message
6. Err... what?
when... more than 30% of electricity is produced by wind power... wind power can only replace other capacity by 5—10% of the wind power capacity.

So, if you use wind as a major source or power, it's between 10 and 20 times more expensive than the capacity cost - say, $15/W.

Gosh, I bet the Albanians will be building a GWreal wind farm any day now.

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razzleberry Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. these numbers are just made up by people ...
Edited on Wed Dec-05-07 06:21 AM by razzleberry
who have no responsibility to provide electric power,
or to fulfill a finantial contract.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. That is also how I view these assessments.
I'd like to ask the people who ran these numbers if they would be willing to sign major power supply contracts, for "five-nines" power reliability, based on their study.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. I wish we had 5 nines here!
Edited on Wed Dec-05-07 11:02 AM by OKIsItJustMe
Why... just yesterday, we lost power for a couple of hours...

"Five nines" means we wouldn't have another power outage for a couple of decades! (I wonder if we could speak to the power company about that?)
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. True, that. I guess my utility is more like 4 nines

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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. Not that you bothered to investigate who made them up of course

Preface

A R&D Task titled "Design and Operation of Power Systems with Large Amounts of Wind Power" has been formed within the "IEA Implementing Agreement on the Co-operation in the Research, Development and Deployment of Wind Turbine Systems" (www.ieawind.org) as Task 25. This R&D task will collect and share information on the experience gained and the studies made on power system impacts of wind power, and review methodologies, tools and data used.

The following countries and institutes have been involved in the collaboration (TSO is Transmission System Operator):

• Denmark: Risφ National Laboratories; TSO Energinet.dk
• EWEA (European Wind Energy Association)
• Finland: VTT Technical Research Centre of Finland (Operating Agent)
• Germany: ISET; TSOs RWE and E.ON Netz
• Ireland: SEI; UCD; TSO Eirgrid
• Norway: SINTEF; Statkraft
• Netherlands: ECN
• Portugal: INETI; TSO REN
• Spain: University Castilla La Mancha
• Sweden: KTH
• UK: Centre for Distributed Generation & Sustainable Electrical Energy
• USA: NREL; UWIG.

...


Yup, just a bunch of idiots, who I doubt could even spell financial.
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