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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 03:11 PM
Original message
Drought could shut down nuclear power plants
Southeast water shortage a factor in huge cooling requirements

Asociated Press
updated 13 minutes ago

LAKE NORMAN, N.C. - Nuclear reactors across the Southeast could be forced to throttle back or temporarily shut down later this year because drought is drying up the rivers and lakes that supply power plants with the awesome amounts of cooling water they need to operate.

Utility officials say such shutdowns probably wouldn’t result in blackouts. But they could lead to shockingly higher electric bills for millions of Southerners, because the region’s utilities could be forced to buy expensive replacement power from other energy companies.

Already, there has been one brief, drought-related shutdown, at a reactor in Alabama over the summer.

“Water is the nuclear industry’s Achilles’ heel,” said Jim Warren, executive director of N.C. Waste Awareness and Reduction Network, an environmental group critical of nuclear power. “You need a lot of water to operate nuclear plants.” He added: “This is becoming a crisis.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22804065/

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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. Drought can shut down *any* large power plant.
Drought can shut down a power plant burning coal, natural gas, bunker oil, or even bullshit.

Fine, be against nuclear power, but what's the point of saying something so stupid? Oh yeah, Four Legs Good, Two Legs Bad.

In many places nobody pays much attention to a power company running a coal plant hot in a drought and parboiling everything downstream. But shut down a nuclear power plant because it's not getting the water supply it was designed for, and OMG it's an "Achilles' heel."

:eyes:

Generally there are two simple reasons for opposing nuclear power: either because it works, or because it doesn't work. But one can't have it both ways. Of the two, the "it works" argument is the one I pay attention to. Any energy source that allows the expansion of this environmentally destructive car crazy consumerists society is a bad thing. As GliderGuider noted, clean cheap fusion energy would have horrific environmental consequences. The same is true of fission

If our argument is that nuclear power doesn't work, well then there's no problem if we turn to wind and solar energy, even if we should happen to build a few new nuclear power plants along the way. The consumerist economy will not expand, and will probably contract.

But one thing is certain. We are destroying what is left of our natural environment while we continue to burn coal. Doing what Germany has done -- banning new nuclear power while building new coal plants -- is a wretched plan. The more coal we burn, the more we will be troubled by climate instabilities such as droughts.

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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Wow - "what's the point of saying something so stupid?"
For one thing, a lot of people aren't aware of these problems - as Waxman said to Al Gore:

"I also hear people say, well they've got a magic solution, nuclear power, <snip>
Nuclear power is an option, you don't want to rule it out, but it's certainly no magic solution.
It almost becomes a theological expression whenever I hear discussion of these environmental issues."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x88649

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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Your entire post is nonsense.
Seriously.

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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. You mean that my opposition of the coal industry is nonsense, perhaps?
Or perhaps you don't believe our insane consumer car culture is destroying the natural environment...

:shrug:

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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. This is why pro-nukes sound like paid shills
"Fine, be against nuclear power, but what's the point of saying something so stupid? Oh yeah, Four Legs Good, Two Legs Bad."

First, that sounds like you're trying to suppress anyone pointing out problems with nuclear power.
I never see pro-nukes write, "Fine, the icecaps are melting, everyone knows that, what's the point of saying something so stupid?"
I never see pro-nukes write, "Fine, it's snowing in Baghdad and Saudi Arabia, everyone knows the climate is changing, why post something so stupid?"
But when there's a post about problems with nuclear power - the pro-nukes don't want anyone to know about it.

And then the continual bleating "Nuclear good, coal bad".
It really comes across as propaganda.

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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. There are problems specific to large thermal power plants...
And there are problems specific to nuclear power plants.

Jim Warren is deliberately trying to confuse the issues when he says something stupid (yes, I said stupid) like "Water is the nuclear industry’s Achilles’ heel."

One builds the cooling apparatus of a power plant to suit the local conditions. Nuclear power plants cooled by ocean water are not affected by drought. The Palo Verde reactors in Arizona are cooled by reclaimed sewage.

There are a significant number of thermal (but not nuclear) power plants cooled by air. These plants use giant radiators very similar to the radiator in a car, but they are much more expensive and less efficient than open water systems, which is why they are rare.

Coal is bad for many reasons. And yes, I do think coal is far worse than nuclear power. I think cars are worse than nuclear power, I think cigarettes are worse than nuclear power, I think our system of industrialized agriculture and highly processed foods is worse than nuclear power. I think high fructose corn syrup is worse than nuclear power and that it should be banned as a foodstuff. I think a lot of things are worse than nuclear power.

If we'd shut down the coal industry down in the United States just as we shut down the nuclear power industry, and if we hadn't been seduced by the fleeting siren songs of natural gas, then we wouldn't have our backs against the wall

If we are afraid of this economy collapsing, and we don't take upon ourselves the challenges of creating a sustainable economy, and especially if we embark upon the widespread conversion of coal to liquid fuels and synthetic natural gas, then this civilization and much of the natural environment supporting us will die.

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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #13
44. Most non-nuclear thermal plants are small
so your post is irrelevant.



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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. There's nothing better than a fundie lecture on "propaganda."
Now.

There is no point, really, in trying to address the kind of "propaganda" that can't figure out if 681 < 660.

In 2003, mostly because of fundie anti-nuke ignorance, there was a tremendous drought in Europe, and the rivers in France largely stopped flowing.

Some nuclear plants were run at reduced power output, and still the capacity utilization of nuclear power in France did not fall as low as the capacity utilizatiion of solar power, wind power, gas power, coal power or anything else hyped by the ignorant.

We might ask our anti-nuke fundies - fundies are a bunch of people who will not think no matter how much data is thrown at their ignorant little asses - how the flow of rivers effects the world's second largest form of climate change gas free energy - hydroelectric, but they would be typically as fundie as always.

I would post the numbers but basically the fundie anti-nuke cult would have a shit fit.

The capacity utilization of nuclear power would need to be cut by a factor of 3 to be as terrible as all the cute renewable schemes pushed by dumb fundie anti-nukes here and elsewhere.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #14
45. It was pointed out several times that you didn't understand the data in that table
and of course you continue to flaunt your ignorance,
because you don't know any better.


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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
41. Oh, look! It's NNadir's little friend!!!
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Cute. Do I get to call you "jpak's little friend?"
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Drought will not shut down a large wind power plant
nor will it shut down a large PV plant
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Wind plants shut down when the wind isn't blowing.
Solar plants shut down when the sun isn't shining.

I believe these situations are quite common occurrences.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. But they're not droughts. ;-)
Edited on Wed Jan-23-08 06:17 PM by OKIsItJustMe
But seriously, please don't make me go into the baseload solar and baseload wind cases again.
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. "Fine, be against nuclear power". Is that me you're addressing for posting the article?
I don't carry an agenda here, unless it's against obvious targets like "free energy". I just posted a piece about a topic that could be of interest to those who follow energy news. I'm not at all anti-nuke, in fact I'm one of the few supporters for two potential commercial nuclear plants in my state, where the oldest anti-nuclear organization in the US has a lot of supporters.



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losthills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. I see major problems with this post....
No one denies that nuclear power "works." It works very well. And while it is working it:

Creates radioactive waste that no one has yet figured out how to store safely for the lifetime of it's toxicity.

Creates products that can be used in the manufacture of nuclear weapons.

Has a potential to wreak extreme havoc in case of an accidental meltdown or in case of a terrorist attack.

Creates extreme environmental devastation from mining the ore needed to fuel it.

Causes cancer in those involved in working in the plants themselves and in uranium mining operations.

Causes cancer in civilian populations living near the power plants and in mining communities.

It's not Renewable. Uranium, like fossil fuels is a finite resource. So we just make ourselves dependent on another energy source that is destined to run out.

It's ungodly expensive.
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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. All true, the production of power is the only positive aspect of nukes.
Like drug "side" effects, all these other problems are inseparable direct effects from using them to generate power.

There's a reason wind power is being installed at an exponential rate. It is cheap and towers need maintenance, not harmful, non renewable fuels.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. And then there is coal, which has all of those problems and more.
Creates toxic and radioactive waste that no one has yet figured out how to store safely for the lifetime of it's toxicity.

Produces vast amounts of greenhouse gasses that are changing the earths climate and killing off entire species.

Is used directly in the manufacture of all weapons, including weapons of mass destruction.

Has been used throughout history to fuel vast war machines that have killed and terrorized billions.

Creates extreme environmental devastation from mining.

Causes cancer in those involved in working in the plants themselves and in the mining operations, and in the communities near and far.

It's not Renewable. So we just make ourselves dependent on another energy source that is destined to run out.

It's ungodly expensive, probably the most expensive form of energy there is. The cost of moving entire populations due to rising sea levels and climate change, the cost of collapsing economies, the cost in lives... is incalcuable.

But somehow nuclear power is worse?

I can't imagine how.
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losthills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Actually...
Nuclear power is worse on every point except greenhouse gasses, and a thousand times to a million times worse on some of those points...

But coal and nuclear are not the only options, and many of us oppose both. As pathways to a sustainable energy future, they both are dead ends. Exciting things are happening on all the renewable fronts, and some of our major contributers here are pointing them out daily....
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Is it really? Why?
If we can take down king coal, we win. Otherwise we all lose.

I don't believe there will be any kind of rush to build nuclear power plants in the United States, but the political powers are certainly laying down the groundwork for increasing the amount of coal we burn.

Increased coal production is their game plan for dealing with the natural gas problem, not nuclear power. A few nuclear plants my be built along the way, but coal is a much more significant and immediate danger to the environment.
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losthills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Coal and Nuclear are equal threats to the environment.
Nuclear power would win in terms of global warming, but radiation is so deadly that it should be outlawed. And nuclear power is not the only alternative to coal. The alternatives are obvious, and are discussed in this forum every day....
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. But they are not "alternatives."
They are not drop in replacements for what we've got. If we promise people the sky, they are going to be pissed off when they discover that a coal-free, nuclear-free society is nothing like the high energy consumer society we have now.

For example, wind turbines would not be so cost effetive now if we were using wind generated electricity to make the cement, and steel, and copper, and aluminum that goes into them.

An alternative energy society will not have the same capacity to make all the stuff that is the basis of our current economy.
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losthills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. What we have now is not sustainable.
Nuclear power is not going to enable us to sustain it. Trying to sustain the current mass consumptive society with nuclear power would fail, and would create far worse problems than what we have now.

An alternative energy based society would not look like what we have now. It would be better...
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. "radiation is so deadly that it should be outlawed"
:spray:
:rofl:

I know you didn't intend to but you've just made my day! Thanks!
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Coal is far worse in every way -- and that's only the start
Are you aware of how much radioactive material is in coal? It averages about 15 parts per million, mainly uranium and thorium. This is not a "suppressed" area of research, it has been known and warned about for decades. The average coal plant puts tons of radioactive material alone into the atmosphere in the course of a year. Yet we demonize reactors while coal burning arouses no such passionate opposition in spite of hundreds of thousands of deaths per year.

This is not to say that nuclear energy is risk-free. But the public perception of the risks of different types of energy production is badly misinformed. And even in the absence of nuclear power, that misinformation could extract a high price.

And then there's coal's load of non-radioactive metal poisons (e.g., lead and mercury) and the carbon greenhouse gases. And sulfur compounds, which cause acid rain, atmospheric inversion episodes, and change the Earth's reflectivity. Even put through a scrubber, coal plants are far dirtier than most people realize. And most coal plants do not use scrubbers nor will they be retrofitted.

Sure, there are alternatives to coal and nuclear power. But their current rate of growth is anemic, and they are mainly used for advertising. This is not a situation that I like any better than anti-nuclearists. And there are yet other alternatives that would be better still (IMO -- deep geothermal and tidal) but are receiving even (far) less funding.

In the broad context, this isn't particularly a nuclear/anti-nuclear problem, it's a problem of public awareness. We are looking for easy solutions backed by glamor and advertising -- for all our infrastructure problems. This approach will bite us in the collective ass (it already is) because the work that needs to be done is formidable, decidedly non-sexy, demands disciplined thought, and is likely to please no one. Building a world infrastructure of twenty million wind plants will be no easier than a nuclear renaissance of twenty thousand reactors -- just to break even.

Meanwhile, we breathe uranium and thorium dust, and it doesn't come from nukes. We breathe, and eat, and drink, a lot of other vile shit that is killing us, too. A few pictures of windmills and children, and some happy-talk press releases tell us that everything is going to be all right. Fission energy plants are among the least of our problems.

--p!
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losthills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. Well, that's just propaganda....
Coal is bad. Nuclear is bad. The same people profit from both. The same profiteers win if we allow ourselves to get suckered into a coal vs. nuclear debate. That's why they are so intent on forcing us into this debate-- they win either way....

Growth in renewable energy is not anemic. It's robust and it's exciting. If we focus on developing renewable energy sources we can have a safe and sane energy future. If we allow the propagandists who come here every day to sucker us into choosing between coal and nuclear they will lead us to our destruction.
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dbackjon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. No it is not - NUCLEAR is the greenest large scale power source around.
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losthills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #31
39. Nuclear Power is not "Green....."
http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_randolph_070117_nuclear_power_is_not.htm

"Certainly, in the search for alternatives to the carbon-based fuels such as coal, oil and natural gas that produce much of our nation's electricity, nuclear power appears to a clean and safe alternative.

Nuclear power is clean, if you overlook the fact that radioactivity is released in every phase of the nuclear production cycle from the mining of the uranium through the spent fuel that no one has figured out what to do with. Factor in the amount of carbon-based fuel used for uranium mining, fuel fabrication, reactor construction and waste storage, and nuclear power is closer to natural gas in terms of greenhouse gas emissions.

And nuclear power is safe, if you overlook the potential for meltdowns, malfunctions and terrorist attacks, as well as the potential for more nuclear weapons from the increased production of fissile materials from reactors.

Leaving aside those two obvious flaws in the nuclear industry's sales pitch, what nuclear power is not is cheap.

Despite more than $150 billion in federal subsidies over the past 60 years - about 30 times more than renewable energy sources such as wind or solar - electricity generated by nuclear energy is substantially more expensive. "
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Far worse in every way ...
I hate to see hyperbolic statements like this on either side of the debate.

When was the last time a coal plant had a "melt down" like Chernobyl.


On the other side of the debate is the misrepresentation that mining uranium releases greenhouse gases at a comparable level to burning coal. (It just ain't so.)
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. When's the last time anyone built a plant like Chernobyl?
And how much worse is that than this:

Florida, 5 meter sea level rise

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/jpl/news/gracef-20060602.html

The environmental damage done by rising sea levels will be far more catastrophic than the accident at Chernobyl.

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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. You don't need to build new ones. There are still RBMK reactors in operation.
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dbackjon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. STRAWMAN ALERT
NO U.S. Plant could ever Chernobyl. Chernobyl was a design that was rejected for the U.S.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. "No U.S. Plant could ever Chernobyl." Oh, really?
Edited on Thu Jan-24-08 06:39 PM by OKIsItJustMe
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/3mile-isle.html
...

Because adequate cooling was not available, the nuclear fuel overheated to the point at which the zirconium cladding (the long metal tubes which hold the nuclear fuel pellets) ruptured and the fuel pellets began to melt. It was later found that about one-half of the core melted during the early stages of the accident. Although the TMI-2 plant suffered a severe core meltdown, the most dangerous kind of nuclear power accident, it did not produce the worst-case consequences that reactor experts had long feared. In a worst-case accident, the melting of nuclear fuel would lead to a breach of the walls of the containment building and release massive quantities of radiation to the environment. But this did not occur as a result of the Three Mile Island accident.

...

Within a short time, the presence of a large hydrogen bubble in the dome of the pressure vessel, the container that holds the reactor core, stirred new worries. The concern was that the hydrogen bubble might burn or even explode and rupture the pressure vessel. In that event, the core would fall into the containment building and perhaps cause a breach of containment. ...



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/tmi/stories/ch6.htm
...

The second alarming development was the gas bubble containing hydrogen, 1,000 cubic feet in size, at the top of the reactor. The reactor had become so hot that the coolant water had decomposed into its primary elements: oxygen and hydrogen.

...

Short of the meltdown, there was the possibility of an explosion, either in the containment building or in the reactor core. On the first day of the accident, there had been a small hydrogen explosion in the containment – an event Met Ed officials didn't tell state or federal authorities about. When NRC experts found out, they launched an immediate effort to analyze the physical chemistry of the bubble.

Thornburgh was told that the NRC's analysis showed that the hydrogen could become flammable or explosive in a matter of days.

A Princeton University scientist calculated that the energy in the bubble was enough to set off an explosion equal to three tons of TNT. Such a force could rip the top of the reactor dome right off, flooding the containment with radioactive debris. There were also fears that the hydrogen would escape to the containment and explode there. One engineer calculated that a hydrogen explosion three times the force of Wednesday's blast might break the four-foot- thick walls of the containment, releasing radioactive material into the air.

...



http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2007/03/dayintech_0328
...

Only the structural integrity of the containment building's walls prevented Three Mile Island from becoming a Chernobyl-style catastrophe. There was no rupture, meaning all the damage was contained within the facility.

...



Yup. We had a meltdown, but it didn't breach containment. Why? Well, in part, luck.
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dbackjon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. No - because of DESIGN
Basically, everything that could go wrong, did at TMI. But the design WORKED. Radiation was contained.

You also typically left off the most important portion of your first quote, re: The Hydrogen Bubble:

The crisis ended when experts determined on Sunday, April 1, that the bubble could not burn or explode because of the absence of oxygen in the pressure vessel. Further, by that time, the utility had succeeded in greatly reducing the size of the bubble.

So, in reality, there was no crisis with a hydrogen bubble, since the design WORKED. But, in typical STRAWMAN fashion, straight out of the Bush "terra, terra, terra" manual, you tell only part of the story, and leave the key element out.


This "redacting" of information on your part leaves your Moonie-post quote very sensational - when in reality, there is nothing but straw there.

Try again, fail again.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. It's funny...
All through TMI (yes, I remember it first hand.) We were told about all of the things which were impossible, and could not happen, and did not happen (among them that a meltdown could not, and did not happen.)
http://americanhistory.si.edu/tmi/tmi05.htm
...

In the months following the accident, “the actual condition of the core was the subject of intense, often heated, speculation.” And yet, as this General Public Utilities engineer in charge of much of the cleanup acknowledged as the job was nearing completion, “the most severe prediction was short of the mark” (ref.23). The prevailing view among the reactor engineers was that “most of the core damage was to the cladding”—i.e., to the zirconium alloy tubes holding the uranium oxide fuel pellets—and “damage to the fuel pellets . . . was minimal at Three Mile Island” (ref.13, p. 33). Although the independent inquiry instituted by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission surmised that some fuel had melted and run down the channels between the fuel rods, it concluded, “Despite this amount of damage, a core meltdown, as normally considered, did not occur” (ref. 29, v.2, pp. 535-36).

To some few experts, one piece of evidence strongly suggested that a considerable part of the fuel in fact lay in the bottom of the reactor vessel, where none should be. A few hours into the accident the neutron detectors toward the bottom of the inner wall of the cylindrical concrete shield surrounding the reactor vessel (solid black in Figure 2.6) began reporting anomalously large numbers of neutrons. As only the uranium fuel itself, not any of its highly radioactive fission products, could be a significant source of neutrons, the onset and continuance of such high readings from detectors in the vicinity of the bottom of the reactor vessel pointed to a “relocation” of a considerable part of the fuel. But as no one could imagine that a considerable part of the fuel had melted, there was no plausible explanation for how such a “relocation” could have taken place.

...






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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Roger Mattson, Victor Stello and the Hydrogen Bubble
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/three/peopleevents/pandeAMEX88.html
People & Events

Roger Mattson, Victor Stello and the Hydrogen Bubble

Roger Mattson and Victor Stello went back a long way. Together they had worked as part of the Atomic Energy Commission, when nuclear power was in its infancy. The two men, though different in demeanor and approach, held each other in high regard. In the early days of the accident they worked together at the Emergency Management Center, established by the NRC. Little did either man know that later a rift would develop between the two engineers that would send a shock wave through the entire nation.

Mattson, who was considered the nation's leading expert on emergency core cooling, came to the startling conclusion that a hydrogen gas bubble had formed above the reactor core. Speaking to NCR Chairman Dr. Joseph M. Hendrie, Mattson said, "They can't get rid of the bubble. They have tried cycling and pressurizing and depressurizing; they have tried natural convection a couple of days ago; they have been on forced circulation; they have steamed out the pressurizer; they have liquided out the pressurizer. The bubble stays." Mattson explained that in order to shut the reactor down, they must reduce the pressure. But lowering the pressure caused the bubble to get bigger. A bigger bubble could push all the water right out of the core and lead to a meltdown. Mattson told Hendrie they were involved in a "horse race," and he was quite unsure as to whether they could win it. Meanwhile, word of a possible meltdown begin to ripple through to the press. That night news anchorman Walter Cronkite, one of the most trusted men in America, updated the nation as to the gravity of events at Three Mile Island: "The world has never known a day quite like today. It faced the considerable uncertainties and dangers of the worst nuclear power plant accident of the atomic age. And the horror tonight is that it could get much worse. The potential is there for the ultimate risk of meltdown at Three Mile Island...."

Victor Stello traveled to Harrisburg with Harold Denton on Friday, March 30, the day of Cronkite's somber broadcast. According to Mike Gray, the screenwriter of the film "The China Syndrome," Mattson confronted Stello on Sunday as they waited for Carter to arrive and the two men engaged in a heated debate over the potential for the hydrogen bubble to explode. At the time President Carter entered the plant, the legitimacy of the hydrogen bubble risk was still undetermined.

On Sunday afternoon, while Carter was still there, Victor Stello found the proof he needed. They discovered that Mattson and his team of consultants had been using the wrong formula to determine the risk posed by the hydrogen bubble. Stello concluded that "hydrogen under pressure will prevent water from breaking apart into hydrogen and oxygen because it will tend to suppress the creation of more hydrogen. Without free oxygen, there can be no explosion." Plant operators began hooking devices to the containment building in order to slowly burn away the hydrogen, thereby bleeding away the bubble.
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Fledermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. THREE MILE ISLAND & Incompetent plant operators same as Chernobyl
Edited on Thu Jan-24-08 08:56 PM by Fledermaus
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #40
47. What kind of incompetent operators allow the use of coal?
Three Mile Island was an utterly trivial event compared to the costs of climate change.

In one case we broke an expensive machine, in the other case we disrupted an entire planet's ecosystem and are well along the road to the economic collapse of an entire civilization and the death of billions of people.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. Good! F*ck nuclear power.
No NUKES!!!
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Ah, the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. NT
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Yup, the comfort of not glowing in the dark because the closest "clean" nuke plant went BANG...
Edited on Wed Jan-23-08 07:12 PM by truebrit71
...Ahhh the comfort of forgetting about nukular accidents....
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Do you worry about cars too?
I've seen much blood and guts from car accidents, but the only "nuclear" accident I've experienced was when some thoughtless twit dumped a tiny amount of radioactive phosphorous into the regular trash. Nobody got hurt, it was all quite boring, but it got more news coverage than any car accidents happening the same day.

Drunk driving kills about 17,000 people a year and leaves many survivors with permanent disabilities -- yet I'm supposed to be discomforted by something that's far less likely to kill me than an ordinary meal at a fast food place, and is less of a menace to the general population than foods cooked in trans-fats.

Well, somebody has to keep an eye on the nuclear industry, but I'd rather those people have some realistic understanding of the problem.

When I was a bright young anti-nuclear activist I was discouraged by all the people making shit up on both sides. The motives and gaming of the guys at PG&E and SCE were a little easier to figure out than the magical thinking of some of the people I was working with. Some of them are still out there blowing the same smoke they always have, and have built entire careers for themselves out of their own bullshit.

Anti-nuclear activism is never going to save the world, and in many ways it has harmed it. Every coal plant built and operating is a huge tragedy, but I don't feel the same about nuclear power plants, and I believe my opinion to be fairly well informed.
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patch1234 Donating Member (109 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
25. small hydro could take up the slack of nuke plants going offline .nt
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Small hydro is destructive and often short lived.
It trashes riparian ecosystems, which you'll understand are quite rare if you look at a map and think about it.

In California most of our waterways have already been incorporated into the plumbing.
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Fledermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #29
43. Linky please?
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #43
46. Links for what?
Here's a map of California hydro projects over 1 MW:

http://www.energy.ca.gov/electricity/hydro_power_plants.html

There are thousands of smaller projects less than 1 MW. But you reach a point of diminishing returns -- at some point the projects are too expensive or too destructive or too vulnerable to flooding or vandalism for the amount of energy they produce. Obviously, it takes a thousand 1 KW projects to equal the output of a single 1 MW project, and a thousand 1 MW projects to equal the output of a 1 GW project.

The only thing that's preventing further installation of larger hydroelectric projects is laws protecting our streams and rivers from further development. I'd hope you'd agree these laws are a desirable thing, and that it is a good idea to protect what little is left of our natural world from further hydro development.

I support strong controls on further hydro development, and furthermore I believe we should be removing some of the more environmentally offensive hydro developments, such as the dams at Hetch Hetchy or Glen Canyon, along with numerous other smaller projects.

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Fledermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. A link to support your claim
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dbackjon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. Hydroplants are EXTREMELY destructive to the environment
Far worse than nuclear.
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