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Fledermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 09:51 PM
Original message
Rapid Transition to Sustainable Urban Transport
World Premiere for Scania's First Ethanol-Powered Trucks

After nearly 20 years as a supplier of ethanol buses, Scania (STO:SCVA)(STO:SCVB) is now broadening its range of ethanol-powered vehicles for urban traffic. Today the company’s first ethanol trucks are being unveiled to international trade journalists, who are test-driving the trucks in Södertälje. Starting next year, this will enable hauliers, authorities and municipalities to run both passenger and goods transport on the same renewable fuel.

Scania is working together with other interested parties in establishing an infrastructure for ethanol fuel distribution. Once the fuel infrastructure is in place, it will also be possible for smaller transport companies to invest in ethanol-powered vehicles.

Scania regards ethanol as the most cost-efficient renewable fuel currently available for urban operation, since it can contribute immediately to reducing carbon dioxide emissions. Scania has produced ethanol bus engines for close to 20 years. The technology is mature and viable for intense everyday city service.

Ethanol is as easy to handle as other liquid fuels. By its nature, it provides cleaner combustion, which means that not only carbon dioxide but other emissions are lower.

If ethanol is produced from Brazilian sugar cane, it provides up to 90 per cent lower carbon dioxide emissions than diesel fuel. Trial production from forest waste with integrated bioprocesses extracting heat or electric power indicates similarly high results.

Production of ethanol as an alternative to petrol is sharply increasing worldwide. The production infrastructure is thus already in place.

Ethanol engine with diesel combustion

Scania's ethanol engines work according to the diesel principle (compression-ignition) and the efficiency of this third generation is up to diesel engine standards. The ethanol used for diesel combustion contains 5-7 per cent additives that improve ignition and lubrication. Passenger cars running on ethanol or an ethanol/petrol mix have Otto engines with considerably lower efficiency.

Scania is the only manufacturer to master this diesel-ethanol technology.

The new ethanol engine is an adaptation of Scania's 9-litre diesel engine with charge-cooling and exhaust gas recirculation (EGR). The engine easily meets the enhanced environmentally friendly vehicle (EEV) standard, which is slightly stricter than Euro 5 − the exhaust standard being introduced in the European Union in October 2009.

Performance is generous for a 9-litre engine. Power is 270 hp and torque a full 1200 Nm, resulting in excellent response and driveability.

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/scania-world-premiere-for-scanias,351575.shtml
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. They should look into developing cellulose ethanol, less impact on food prices
With corn ethanol, for instance, it crowds out the supply for food driving up prices. The problem with the US is that it is too cold for sugar cane, but it is not for using farm waste products as feeder for producing cellulose ethanol. With cellulose ethanol production, you can use, for instance, the entire stalk of the crop, not just the corn alone with the rest going to waste.
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losthills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. It doesn't matter what crop you use.
That will be the most valuable crop and the one that everyone will want to grow.

It doesn't have to be a "food crop" to raise food prices and cause food shortages.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. The only way thanol works is if we have 70%
The only way ethanol works is if we have 70% of the population working directly in ethanol production while being content with a feudal lifestyle.

If that's what you are looking for, or if you just want handouts for agribusiness, then ethanol is your poison. But if you'd rather not devote nearly all of societies energy resources to the production of a marginal amount of energy, then perhaps wind, solar or wave/current/tidal is a better course to pursue.

At theoretical best, EROI of ethanol is about 8:1 (worse than nuclear, actually), while wind is shooting past 50:1 and probably headed much higher.
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Fledermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 11:35 PM
Original message
What does EROI tell us about carbon reduction?...Nothing.
EROI for oil/gasoline is 20:1 or 40:1 or what ever you want it to be today, but the thing you don’t mention is it is all fossil fuel… a 100% carbon release.

When people talk about 8:1 ratio for ethanol that’s one BTU of fossil fuel input and 8 BTUs of biofuel output. That’s a carbon reduction and reduction of fossil fuels used…90 per cent lower carbon dioxide emissions than diesel fuel
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
6. You still don't get it, do you?
Edited on Wed Apr-16-08 12:08 AM by kristopher
First a minor correction. It is 1 BTU input of energy, not necessarily fossil it could be ethanol. (That works in your favor actually).

Where you are going wrong is trying to judge the carbon emissions the use of an EROI, the two aren't more than topically related.
What I referred to in relation to EROI is wind because, as I noted in the previous post, we need the excess energy that a higher EROI represents so that we have a surplus. Again, if you want a feudal style existence where everyone is working the fields to eke out a marginal return on energy invested, then ethanol is exactly the right course to steer. It all depends on what your goal is. Most people don't want that kind of life and since if the choice they are presented with are fossil fuels that will ruin the world sometime in the future or live as a serf, I suspect they are going to choose fossil fuels.
Now if you want to present them with the choice of living a life similar to what they have now, but with a village orientation (clustered housing, shopping, mass transit etc) and a set of values based on something other than consumption, carbon free wind is probably the more appropriate choice.

It all depends on what you want.
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Fledermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. You, apparently, use EROI as if it were the same thing as any other type of energy balance.
Today, you appear to claim ethanol will use 70% of the population for production because of its EROI…or maybe your not…who knows were you get your numbers?
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. WTF are you talking about?
I'm using eroi as it is normally used, as a metric to determine the surplus energy of a given method of energy aggregation. It is a ratio to assist in determining the economic worth of a given technology in relation to other technologies.

Ethanol sucks.
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Fledermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. WTF? 70% of the work force producing ethanol?
Edited on Wed Apr-16-08 11:19 PM by Fledermaus
EROEI is only one consideration and may not be the most important one in energy policy. Energy independence (reducing international competition for limited natural resources), freedom from pollution (including carbon dioxide and other green house gases), and affordability could be more important, particularly when considering secondary energy sources. While a nation's primary energy source is not sustainable unless it uses less energy than it creates, the same is not true for secondary energy supplies. Some of the energy surplus from the primary energy source can be used to create the fuel for secondary energy sources, such as for transportation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EROEI


There are good reasons why governments and universities don’t use EROI when evaluating fossil fuel replacements.

Scientific models, like GREET and others, show the true relationship of energy balances and carbon dioxide production.

Oil/gasoline has a true negative energy balance with 100% carbon dioxide release while bio-fuels have a positive energy balance and reductions in carbon dioxide releases.

Your EROI is a silly little game fossil fuel producers like to play. I like the bank analogue. They make a withdraw, oil in this example, from a bank account, or oil reserve in this case, with a debt card divide the withdraw by the service fee,the oil used to produce the gasoline, and then claim a positive cash/energy flow. Well, I think its obvious this little delusional game will come to and end when the account is depleted. The foolishly blind & incompetent EROI economics is driving global warming and it will come to an end one way or another.

Thermodynamics is the study of the inter-relation between heat, work and internal energy of a system.

The British scientist and author C.P. Snow had an excellent way of remembering the three laws:

You cannot win (that is, you cannot get something for nothing, because matter and energy are conserved).

You cannot break even (you cannot return to the same energy state, because there is always an increase in disorder; entropy always increases).

You cannot get out of the game (because absolute zero is unattainable).

http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae280.cfm


However, ethanol will be here as long as the sun is shinning.
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Fledermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. n/t
Edited on Tue Apr-15-08 11:36 PM by Fledermaus
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blue sky at night Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. I have my doubts about using agribusiness to grow...
fuel. It takes fuel to raise it...let use those acres to grow food, and look elsewhere for motor fuel...look what is happening right now to food prices.
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