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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:13 PM
Original message
Texas wind farms choked off from grid due to insufficient power lines
Thousands of wind turbines in the US are sitting idle or failing to meet their full generating capacity because of a shortage of power lines able to transmit their electricity to the rest of the grid.

The issue of transmission capacity will be high up the agenda as 10,000 wind power industry executives descend this week on Houston, Texas, where the shortage of power lines is hampering the state's alternative energy plans. The problem is particularly acute in Texas because of the speed with which it has grown its wind power industry, two years ago surpassing California as the state with the most capacity. The solutions devised in Texas could form a model for the future of the industry in the US and elsewhere, as energy companies look beyond fossil fuels for cheaper and greener sources of power.

A proposal for $6.4bn of new power lines linking new wind farms with the state's public electricity grid, whose cost will be borne mainly by consumers, is proving politically controversial. Wind farm developers are examining building their own private lines.

"Delivering electricity is a very complex system, and wind adds another level of complexity," Jone-Ling Wang, managing director of global power for Cambridge Energy Research Associates, told the Houston Chronicle before yesterday's conference. "In Texas, the success of wind means the challenges will be great, too." In a moment of high symbolism, the American Wind Energy Association's annual Wind Power conference this year will for the first time be held in Houston, capital of the US oil industry.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/texas-wind-farms-choked-off-from-grid-due-to-insufficient-power-lines-838979.html
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BrklynLib at work Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. Gee. I wonder if the influence of oil companies in Texas has anyting to do with the inadequate
facilities for alternate energy sources?
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Actually, I doubt it...
For one thing, oil isn't a big player in American electricity generation. Utility deregulation and the end of vertical integration are mostly the culprits.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Natgas is a huge player in American electricity generation
Shell, BP, many others supply natgas as well.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. True...
Still, I'm not aware of any particular connection between the oil industry and the electric utility deregulation that resulted in electric grid neglect. If they lobbied for deregulation, I rather doubt it was for the purpose torpedoing wind power.
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Deregulation is indeed the culprit
A well-functioning grid is by its very nature a government undertaking. No one utility can undertake it by themselves and all utilities have to agree to certain ground rules to keep it running smoothly. With deregulation, all that goes out the window, as electricity gets swapped around in market transactions a la Enron. Deregulation didn't torpedo wind power on purpose, it was just one of those added benefits you get with conservative thinking.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. "Deregulation" is a false descriptor
Unbundling is much more accurate. The electric industry is still heavily regulated at both the federal and state levels. It is just that they have tried to eliminate the vertically integrated structure that developed from the monopolistic nature of the grid. They broke up the monopolies and made each profit center responsible to itself and its shareholders; as well as regulators. The result has been a greater opportunity for renewable generation to challenge the existing infrastructure.

there are problems with unbundling, but blocking out renewables isn't one of them.

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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
6. BTW, as long as we're talking about electric grids....
Here is a primer on electric grids and their history:

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3934
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. That isn't really a primer on the grid; is a fairly shallow analysis of what the
That isn't really a primer on the grid; is a fairly shallow analysis of problems the writer thinks exists.

Some of the problems are real, others - not so much.

Real: Declining investment. The problem is twofold, first, the people who build transmission build it because there is a market to be served. The problem they experience is that there is nothing to stop someone from building generating capacity in the market they built the lines to serve. This makes profitability problematic.
The second problem is that for-profit corporations don't strive for 100% reliability. They react to customer complaints. In other words the threshold for failure is lower in the for-profit model than in the cost plus model under government regulators. The result is more failures due to lack of distribution line maintenance. Note that there is a big difference between transmission lines and distribution lines.

Not so real: No one is working on the issue. Federal legislation has already been enacted that will relieve the congestion the writer points to on the east coast as well as comparable problems in the southwest to west.
The legislation authorizes expropriation of right-of-way for the transmission corridors that can't be contested.


I don't care much for the way they unbundled the utilities, but it does act to give renewable generation greater access to the grid, not less.

I don't think your source article is very good, btw.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I'm not seeing the greater access...
If our decoupled grid is giving better access, why are these wind-farm guys talking about building their own transmission infrastructure just to sell their power? The gist of the OP is that the grid as it stands is a barrier to access.

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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Wind is commonly far from load centers.
This has been a known challenge for the industry from day one.

One of the huge advantages of offshore wind is that since population clusters in coastal areas, the good offshore winds are close to load centers. However, the mid-US is a different story, there is a vast resource, but no transmission.

The problem is being worked on.

This is an html version of a pdf, and is an exchange in Science on the topic. The first work looking closely at the problem was Cavallo (1995).

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:RCJ2-YMnZFEJ:wpweb2.tepper.cmu.edu/ceic/pdfs_other/Science_debate_on_wind_2001.pdf+high+capacity+wind+cavallo&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. That was an interesting debate...
I would say I side with Joseph F. DeCarolis and David W. Keith.

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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Why is that?
We disagree with Decarolis and Keith's key points and believe that our conclusions still stand. First, DeCarolis
and Keith speculate about the intermittency cost of wind (the cost of regulation ancillary service), but there is
no need to speculate
, because a study on this issue has been done. It showed that such costs are about 0.005
to 0.03 ¢/kWh, which is less than 1% of the price of wind energy, and the cost can be reduced further by using
an hour-by-hour persistence forecast (1). In addition, the more turbines at a given wind farm and the more
wind farms there are, the more intermittency of individual turbines cancel each other out (for example, lower
supply from one farm can be made up by greater supply from another)


This was written in 2001, and since there have been myriad studies that show Jacobson to be correct. Most of them are regional assessments by utilities where wind projects are proposed. A standard part of the analysis involves properly pricing the product, a process that includes additional costs due to intermittency. Additional work produced since 2001 also documents the proposition that more the more turbines there are at a wind farm, and the more wind farms there are, the lower the aggregate costs.

Did you read the entire thing, including the discussion of replacing coal?
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Because I agree with the response by DeCarolis and Keith:
(Hopefully I'm not stepping on copyright by including the whole thing)

I'd like to point out that none of this is fundamentally insurmountable, it's more a disagreement about what the real cost is going to be. And the level of difficulty.

We judge that much - perhaps all - of our disagreement stems from
differing assumptions, rather than dispute over the factual content such
as the cost and performance of wind turbines or the cost of
long-distance transmission. With this letter, we aim to make our
assumptions explicit and then respond to Jacobson and Masters'
critique of our letter to Science.

We assume the following: 1. Wind energy could realistically effect
deep reductions in the environmental damages (air pollution, CO2)
imposed by fossil-based electric power systems. 2. In response to the
CO2-climate problem, we expect that it will be necessary to make
deep reductions (over 50%) in electric sector emissions. We are
interested in estimating the cost of wind if it were to supply a
substantial fraction, on the order of one-fourth, of U.S. demand. 3. If
wind is to be exploited at very large scales (hundreds of gigawatts of
output), we anticipate that environmental, aesthetic, and economic
considerations will dictate that the bulk of the wind capacity be located
in the windy regions of the Great Plains.
Below we address the critiques you raised regarding our letter.

1. Hirst’s analysis and intermittency. We were impressed by Hirst’s
analysis, “Interactions of Wind Farms With Bulk-Power Operations
and Markets,”(1). The paper analyzes import of wind energy from the
Lake Benton site in southwestern Minnesota to the PJM grid. The
analysis is, however, not pertinent to our disagreement about the cost
of intermittency because it treats a case where the wind power supply
is too small to significantly influence the power market. The Benton
array has a small capacity (~100 megawatts) and is being imported
into a massive grid capable of supporting a peak load of 52 gigawatts.
Hirst addresses this issue by adding a wind multiplier parameter, but
his analysis still only extends to wind serving less than 10 percent of
generation. Hirst’s general conclusion only supports our intuition: “as
the size of the wind farm increases relative to the control area, the
average price it receives for its output declines.”

2. The economics of backup when wind is baseload. There is an
additional complication not presented in the Hirst paper that is only
relevant when wind is treated as baseload capacity. Although
geographically dispersing turbine arrays can decrease the variance in
wind power output, there will still be times when turbine output is
minimal. Therefore, there must be a significant amount of backup
capacity or storage. But because many of these generating or storage
units will be used infrequently only when the wind doesn’t blow, there
use will be small and the amortized cost will be spread over fewer
kilowatt hours of production, making the incremental cost of backup
very expensive. Given points 1 and 2, we think your suggestion that
5 of 19 1/29/2002 4:58 PM
Science -- Published dEbate responses for DeCarolis et al., 294 (5544) 1000-1003 wysiwyg://270/http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/eletters/294/5544/1000
the cost of intermittency is of order 0.05¢/kWh is implausible. We
think our disagreement here is completely driven by differing
assumptions about wind’s fraction of electric capacity.

3. Correspondence between wind resources and the existing grid. We
do not dispute your statement that several hundred gigawatts of wind
resources exist within 10 miles of existing transmission infrastructure
(2). However, we think that this may not be relevant for three reasons
detailed below.

(a). Economic considerations. Exploiting wind resources close to
existing transmission grids is not necessarily the most cost-effective
solution. Because wind turbine output exhibits a cubic dependence on
wind speed, wind power output is very sensitive to location. For
instance, it may be true that installing 10 gigawatts of turbine capacity
in the Pembina Escarpment of North Dakota, a wind class 5 area, and
transporting the electricity to the PJM grid via HVDC lines is roughly
equivalent in cost to simply installing the wind turbines in southwestern
Pennsylvania, in wind classes 3-4 and neglecting transmission costs.
For the same reason, we do not believe it is coincidental that Hirst
chose to look at wheeling wind power from Lake Benton, a wind class
6 site, to the PJM grid.

(b). Transmission considerations. In addition to considering the
location of wind turbines with respect to the existing grid, a
comprehensive assessment of existing transmission and distribution line
capacity of the local grid must be performed, as your reference clearly
indicates (2). We would wager that the existing grid located near the
Pembina Escarpment would not support the hypothesized 10 gigawatts
of additional electric power from new turbine arrays. As such, we still
believe that long-distance HVDC transmission lines would be a critical
component of large-scale wind. Jacobson and Masters say that the
cost of 1.5 ¢/kWh “is not supported by the actual cost of transmission
lines,” but they provide no reference to other estimates of HVDC
costs. We can cite many studies that show amortized HVDC costs to
lie in the 1-2 ¢/kWh for these distances.

(c). Aesthetic considerations. Although there are substantial wind
resources near population centers (and the grid), we are skeptical that
these would be developed at large scales. For example, where we live
in western Pennsylvania, there are substantial wind resources located
on the mountain ridges, and in principle these could supply power to
the PJM grid. However, to supply substantial power a developer
would need to use almost all the ridge tops, which we believe would
be unacceptable to local residents. We judge that aesthetic and
environmental concerns would push large-scale wind into the Great
Plains.

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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. You agree because you agree?
Their point about different assumptions being used is correct. As I said, since that debate took place two major technological considerations have changed: storage via v2g is emerging as the preferred solution to high penetration of intermittent energy sources and the wind resource offshore the US (close to load centers) has been 'discovered'.

Add to that the factual, case by case analysis for actual projects and the DeCarolis/Keith assumptions have been shown to be invalid.

So you might agree with them, but you do so for no good reason.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. I will agree to disagree with you.
I'm nonplussed with the recent hype over V2G. I've been reading puff pieces about V2G since the 90s. So far, it's like the hydrogen economy and fusion. Always just around the corner.

If I may: I think you believe in it "for no good reason."
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Now you're just making false statements.
V2G wasn't a concept being discussed in the 90s.
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
7. Wind whispers of Enron
June 3, 2008, 10:45PM
COMMENTARY
Wind whispers of Enron

By LOREN STEFFY
Copyright 2008 Houston Chronicle

If you listen, you can hear Enron's ghost carried on the wind.

It hovers over the 10,000 people gathered in Houston to tout the virtues of wind energy. The more the hype blows, the more Robert Bradley hears the voice of his old boss, Ken Lay.

Under Lay, Enron championed a host of government-supported "green" energy initiatives, all designed to help its businesses, from natural gas to electricity trading to wind farms.

"Lay got on the global warming bandwagon when it became a big issue in the summer of 1988," said Bradley, who chairs the Institute for Energy Research, which is affiliated with Lindenwood University in St. Charles, Mo. "Enron already had a big play on natural gas, and that fit right in."

Bradley spent 16 years at Enron, until the company filed for bankruptcy in late 2001. For seven of them, he wrote speeches for Lay, though Bradley said they disagreed on some issues.

Although Lay championed deregulation, for example, Bradley said the former Enron chairman wasn't the free-marketer he claimed to be.

Enron in the late 1980s wasn't big enough to compete with the major oil companies. Lay's strategy, he said, was to get the government to force regulatory change, thereby creating lucrative markets for Enron. In other words, if you can't beat 'em, change the rules.

Deregulation of the natural gas markets allowed Enron to become a trading company, dominating the market with its gas bank. Lay followed the same strategy in urging states to deregulate electricity markets.

cont'd

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/steffy/5817644.html
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. The "source" in the story, Bradley is active against regulations to deal with Global Warming
Institute for Energy Research
http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/

Author of Chronicle's new item has blog:
http://blogs.chron.com/lorensteffy/

...Enron's ghost, carried on the wind

As I read about the American Wind Energy Association's four-day annual conference this week in Houston, I was reminded of a conversation I had over lunch a few weeks ago with Robert Bradley.

Bradley is a 16-year veteran of Enron, seven of which he spent as a speech writer for Ken Lay. He now heads the Institute for Energy Research, which is affiliated with Lindenwood University in St. Charles, Mo.

As Bradley sees it, most of the "green energy" programs that are all the rage now date to initiatives supported by Enron.

Lay, he said, jumped on the global warming bandwagon in the late 1980s because it played into Enron's natural gas business. Likewise, he championed electricity deregulation and other alternative fuels such as wind power.

Lay's strategy, Bradley said, was to get government to create lucrative markets that Enron could dominate, while dressing them up with a combination of environmentalism and capitalism.
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Thanks for the information!...n/t
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Summer93 Donating Member (439 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
15. A toaster!
Several years ago I worked at an electric company. While I was there they put up a demonstrator windmill out front. It was there perhaps a year when they took it down. They said at the time it proved that the most it would do was to run a toaster so the test was over and they saw no need to pursue wind power.

How things have changed - twenty years or so and now it becoming a real source of electric power supply. The politics of it continue to put roadblocks in front of reality. Too bad.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. ahem... "Texas Builds a Pipeline for Wind Energy"
http://featured.matternetwork.com/2008/5/texas-builds-pipeline-wind-energy.cfm

<snip>

Several new high-voltage 345-kV transmission lines and grid upgrades are needed to carry wind energy out of West Texas, and five different scenarios are currently under review. The most basic plan would cost $2.95 billion, and the most ambitious would cost $6.38 billion. The least-expensive scenario could lead to 5,150 megawatts of additional wind power and would require about 1,600 miles of new transmission lines, with each mile costing about $1 million. It will take two to five years to build the lines, according to Hadley, and several developers are likely to be involved due to the scope of the project. After the meetings this summer, developers will bid on the transmission line projects, and the PUC hopes to have a construction plan in place by the end of the year.

<more>


Texas Could Spend up to $6.4B on Transmission Lines

http://earth2tech.com/2008/04/10/texas-could-spend-up-to-64b-on-transmission-lines/

Texas likes getting energy from wind, but drawing that power from the middle of nowhere in West Texas to more populated regions is going to be expensive. Despite the hefty price tag, construction on new transmission lines should begin by the end of 2009.

The Public Utility Commission of Texas met today to discuss a report released last week by the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT), outlining the costs and possibilities for constructing the new lines. According to that report, the state could spend between $2.95 billion and $6.38 billion building new transmission lines.

Part of the problem is the sheer size of the state. Miles of wire and substations are required along the way. Another issue is the variability of wind power. It’s a complex issue and ERCOT looked at four different transmission strategies.

The first included adding to the existing transmission system, which could expose the system to overloads because the existing substations might not be able to handle large influxes of power generated by wind. A second approach, more incremental build-out, could take care of the overloads, but would require more infrastructure. A third option involved fairly costly high-voltage lines. And the fourth would rely on high-voltage, direct-current lines, which, though efficient, would require special equipment at the substations to convert power to alternate current for use in homes and businesses.

<more>
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ElectricGrid Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
20. ..
Nice article
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