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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 12:36 PM
Original message
Nationwide hydrogen car tour kicks off in Maine
http://bangornews.com/news/t/news.aspx?articleid=168266&zoneid=500

PORTLAND, Maine (AP) — A nationwide tour to showcase hydrogen-powered cars kicked off Monday.

The tour, which started at Fort Allen Park in Portland, is organized by the U.S. Transportation and Energy departments, the National Hydrogen Association and the California Fuel Cell Partnership.

Cars from nine manufacturers are taking part in the two-week, cross-country event that includes 31 stops in 18 states.

<more>
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. Why are no environmental orgs represented?
If hydrogen is such a great idea you'd think Sierra Club, Greenpeace, etc might be on board.

Not that we couldn't trust CFCP members BP, Chevron, ExxonMobil, and Shell to protect the environment.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Re: Why are no environmental orgs represented?
Why didn't they ask me when they were organizing it?

Maybe they already had enough "organizers?"


The Hydrogen Energy Center of Portland and the Maine Clean Communities Coalition are the local organizers for the event, and the California Fuel Cell Partnership, U.S. departments of Transportation and Energy and the National Hydrogen Association are the national event planners.



Greenpeace is in favor of cleanly generated hydrogen:
http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/press-center/releases2/greenpeace-calls-for-a-clean-h

Greenpeace Calls for a Clean Hydrogen Initiative

February 05, 2003

Washington, DC, United States — Greenpeace is encouraged that President Bush has brought hydrogen and fuel cells into the national spotlight as a solution to our nation's energy problems. However, his FreedomFuel initiative in its current form is a dirty energy trap for Americans. Unless hydrogen is produced using clean energy sources -- not coal and nuclear power as the Bush plan proposes --our country's security will be further undermined with increased nuclear waste and accelerated global warming.

If the President wants to show leadership on creating a clean energy future, he has to provide more than hydrogen gift wrapping around dirty energy technologies that are at the center of the Bush-Cheney Energy Plan.

No Dirty Hydrogen from Coal and Nukes

The Bush Administration's so-called FreedomFuel initiative is a dirty hydrogen plan, focusing on generating hydrogen from coal and nuclear power sources. Coal and nuclear power will never offer sustainable solutions to our energy needs. These technologies are polluting, dangerous and extremely susceptible to sabotage. Hydrogen fuel should be produced with the plentiful, clean renewable energy resources of the United States, such as wind and solar power. For example, Los Angeles is already home to a solar powered hydrogen generating station, allowing hydrogen vehicles to put the sun in their tank. A hydrogen vision based on renewable energy will end our expensive addiction to fossil fuels, stop global warming and halt the production of nuclear waste for energy.

Clean Energy Now, Not in 2020

A rapid transition to a clean hydrogen economy would free the US from oil interests while providing increased environmental security. President Bush's commitment to hydrogen needs to reflect the urgent need to reduce American's dependence on oil, we need clean energy solutions today, not decades from now. Commercialization of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles can begin far before the 2020 date identified in the President's program. Toyota and Honda have already delivered prototype vehicles to California. Experts in the field emphasize that what is needed now is a strong market to rapidly bring production to scale and the vehicles into the hands of consumers in the next few years, rather than decades from now.


The Sierra Club should be all over this. Instead, they're promoting Corn Ethanol!
http://www.sierraclub.org/energy/biofuels/iowa/

Destination Iowa:
Getting to a Sustainable Biofuels Future

Iowa has made a huge investment in corn-based ethanol and reaped some benefits from the biofuels boom-but not without costs to the environment and the economy. Now it's time for Iowa to make the investments needed to transition to the next generation of biofuels and boost renewable energy production. Destination Iowa, the first report in an exciting new partnership between the Sierra Club and the Worldwatch Institute, explains where Iowa's bioeconomy is today, where it can go in the future, and charts a course for getting there.

By making smart investments now and putting the right policies in place, communities across Iowa can enjoy sustained economic growth and prosperity-all while promoting a biofuels and renewable energy future that protects Iowa's storied landscapes, promotes sustainable agricultural practices, protects the environment, and provides a solution to global warming. Destination Iowa lays out steps that Iowans can take to today maximize the benefits of the corn-based bioeconomy, while preparing for the richer, cleaner, and more productive bioeconomy of tomorrow.

Iowa is at the epicenter of today's biofuels boom and has the opportunity to lead the nation in the transition toward the next generation of biofuels.



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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Greenpeace was in favor of hydrogen...in 2003
but their enthusiasm was a bit misplaced:

"Experts in the field emphasize that what is needed now is a strong market to rapidly bring production to scale and the vehicles into the hands of consumers in the next few years, rather than decades from now."

Grown tired of waiting since 2006 for a fuel cell vehicle, apparently they're not on board anymore. As far as your other orgs, there isn't an environmental group in the bunch.

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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-12-08 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Got any evidence that Greenpeace now opposes clean Hydrogen?
Edited on Tue Aug-12-08 09:04 AM by OKIsItJustMe
All I can find is statements which are consistent with the one I quoted. (The reason I quoted that particular one was it explicitly addressed hydrogen.) For example, here's a recent story:

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=385&sid=1436398

G-8 summit not as green as billed, activists say

July 8, 2008 - 2:57pm
By ANGELA DOLAND
Associated Press Writer

RUSUTSU, Japan (AP) - At the Group of Eight summit, you can go for a spin in a hydrogen-fueled Mazda or tour a home powered by solar panels and a wind turbine. And don't forget to test the water-saving toilets, complete with seat-warmer and built-in bidet.



In the media center, photocopied handouts were ubiquitous and food came in plastic containers. Daniel Mittler, political adviser to Greenpeace International, pointed out a tray of watermelon, each thin slice encased in its own plastic snap-shut tray.

"I think (the summit) is a typical example of how environmental protection is still seen as something that you actively do," he said. "You create a nice pavilion that is energy efficient. You showcase a car that's better than other cars. But it's not your normal reality. As soon as your normal reality creeps in, you go back to the bad old ways."

The summit could be worth the carbon expended if the G-8 governments _ the United States, Britain, France, Italy, Germany, Russia, Japan and Canada _ made real progress, Mittler said.



A hydrogen-powered car apparently is "better than other cars" (unless he was referring to some other car not mentioned in the article.)


http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jul/23/solarpower.windpower

Solar power from Saharan sun could provide Europe's electricity, says EU

· Huge £35bn supergrid would pool green sources
· Brown and Sarkozy back north African plan



Doug Parr, Greenpeace UK's chief scientist, welcomed the proposals: "Assuming it's cost-effective, a largescale renewable energy grid is just the kind of innovation we need if we're going to beat climate change."



The vision for the renewable energy grid comes as the commission's joint research centre (JRC) published its strategic energy technology plan, highlighting solar PV as one of eight technologies that need to be championed for the short- to medium-term future.

"It recognises something extraordinary - if we don't put together resources and findings across Europe and we let go the several sectors of energy, we will never reach these targets," said Giovanni de Santi, director of the JRC, also speaking in Barcelona.

The JRC plan includes fuel cells and hydrogen, clean coal, second generation biofuels, nuclear fusion, wind, nuclear fission and smart grids. De Santi said it was designed to help Europe to meet its commitments to reduce overall energy consumption by 20% by 2020, while reducing CO² emissions by 20% in the same time and increasing to 20% the proportion of energy generated from renewable sources.


Please find me an explicit statement from Greenpeace opposing clean hydrogen.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-12-08 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. The Hydrogen Economy—EU Parliamentary Leadership Group for a Hydrogen Economy
Edited on Tue Aug-12-08 09:13 AM by OKIsItJustMe
http://www.foet.org/ongoing/leadership-hydrogen-economy.html

The Hydrogen Economy

EU Parliamentary Leadership Group for a Hydrogen Economy

The EU Green Hydrogen Parliamentary Initiative is an unprecedented bipartisan political coalition which will serve as a vehicle to create a European partnership for a hydrogen economy.

On September 12, 2005 a parliamentary leadership group was announced to promote a Green Hydrogen Economy across the EU. At a press conference held at the EU Parliament in Brussels, 50 European Union parliamentary leaders of all 6 major European political parties — The Popular party, Party of the European Socialists (PES), Alliance of the Liberal Democrats of Europe (ALDE), Green group, European Unity of the Left (GUE), and Union of European Nations (UEN) — have made the commitment to push ahead on plans to make the EU the first renewable energy hydrogen economy in the world.

The political coalition have pledged their support of a long-term multilevel initiative designed to make the transition out of the oil era into a green hydrogen economy, and represents the broadest and most diverse group of Europe's parliamentarians ever to come together around the renewable energy agenda. The Green Hydrogen MP coalition will be establishing task forces with civil society organizations, the business community, organized labor and academia to advance public/private initiatives to help usher in a green hydrogen economy over the course of the next twenty-five years.

The European Parliamentary Leadership Group for the Hydrogen Economy includes the President of European Parliament, Josep Borrell, and Jo Leinen, leading environmental expert in the SDP of Germany. The European Parliament Hydrogen Initiative is also being supported by the EU Environmental Commissioner, Stavros Dimas. Moreover, the European Parliament Hydrogen Group is led by Dr. Vittorio Prodi of the Liberal party, a world-class physicist with 40 years of experience on energy-related issues — and is an expert on Hydrogen Energy.

In addition, major European environmental NGOs — Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth, Climate Action Network (CAN), and the European Environment Bureau — as well as the European Renewable Energies Federation (EREF) announced their enthusiastic endorsement of the Green Hydrogen Parliamentary Initiative and pledged to work closely with the EU Parliament to advance legislation, both in the EU parliament and across the 25 member states. Jorgo Riss, representing Greenpeace and the other major environmental organizations acted as the spokesperson for the environmental NGOs at the parliamentary press conference.

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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-12-08 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. A link from 2005? You're getting desperate.
:D
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-12-08 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. No, I'm not
Once again, it was an explicit statement of support. (As opposed to the G-8 story from which we can only infer support.)

The ball's in your court.

Find me something more recent which explicitly says that Greenpeace opposes clean hydrogen.


If you cannot, then we are forced to conclude their policy remains unchanged.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-12-08 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. We are forced to conclude nothing of the sort, based on
Edited on Tue Aug-12-08 10:45 AM by wtmusic
position papers from three and five years ago.

OT what is "clean hydrogen"? The kind that doesn't require an input of energy to create? Where might I find some? :shrug:
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-12-08 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. You're arguing from ignorance
Edited on Tue Aug-12-08 11:09 AM by OKIsItJustMe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

They haven't made an explicit statement recently; therefore they've reversed their policy.

Show me evidence.


The meaning of "Clean Hydrogen" is easily understood by reading their statement.
http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/press-center/releases2/greenpeace-calls-for-a-clean-h

Greenpeace Calls for a Clean Hydrogen Initiative

February 05, 2003

Washington, DC, United States — Greenpeace is encouraged that President Bush has brought hydrogen and fuel cells into the national spotlight as a solution to our nation's energy problems. However, his FreedomFuel initiative in its current form is a dirty energy trap for Americans. Unless hydrogen is produced using clean energy sources -- not coal and nuclear power as the Bush plan proposes --our country's security will be further undermined with increased nuclear waste and accelerated global warming.




Or, read what the Union of Concerned Scientists has to say:
http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/documents/clean_vehicles/SB-1505-fact-sheet-1.pdf
http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/cars_pickups_suvs/fuelcell-vehicles.html

If you don't like their policies, take it up with them.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-12-08 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. You're creating a false dilemma
Edited on Tue Aug-12-08 11:40 AM by wtmusic
"A False Dilemma is a fallacy in which a person uses the following pattern of "reasoning":

1. Either claim X is true or claim Y is true (when X and Y could both be false).
2. Claim Y is false.
3. Therefore claim X is true.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html"

You claim that because I argue (correctly) that because environmental orgs like Greenpeace have not come in support of the "National Hydrogen Tour", I deduce that Greenpeace has reversed their position. I argue that Greenpeace is likely neutral or taking a wait-and-see position. You have produced no evidence they are *actively* supporting fuel-cell transportation, and in light of their earlier assumption that FCVs would be viable in "a few years" that is a rational conclusion. They stepped in poo; they don't want to do it again.

Meanwhile I'm still waiting for you to explain why environmental orgs are not supporting the "National Hydrogen Tour".

The Union of Concerned Scientists (which anyone can join for a fee, BTW) is not generally considered an environmental org. They do make some good points, however (from your link):

"However, it is extremely important to factor in any global warming emissions associated with the production of hydrogen. Pure hydrogen gas does not occur in nature in concentrated amounts, meaning that hydrogen must be produced. A number of various technologies exist to extract hydrogen from sources such as water, natural gas, coal, and biomass, among others. The different hydrogen sources and production methods determine the amount of heat-trapping gases and other environmental issues associated with hydrogen production. Advances in hydrogen production are needed to minimize and eliminate global warming emissions. Research needs to continue on producing hydrogen from renewable resources, including wind and solar power and more advanced technologies."

onedit: what is clean hydrogen? When you get a chance.


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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-12-08 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I have presented explicit statements by Greenpeace
Unless you can produce statements from Greenpeace saying that they have reversed their previous statements, I consider the matter concluded.

I've already quoted Greenpeace's statement regarding "Clean Hydrogen." I won't waste my time posting it a 3rd time.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-12-08 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Greenpeace Releases National Energy Plan
http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/press-center/releases2/greenpeace-releases-national-e

Greenpeace Releases National Energy Plan

Calls on Bush to Adopt Sensible Policies That Protect the Planet’s Climate

February 21, 2006

Washington, D.C., United States — As the Bush administration launches an ambitious public relations campaign around energy issues this week, Greenpeace is calling on President Bush to take rational, necessary and sensible steps towards a clean and independent energy future. Following his announcement in the State of the Union address of a major administration energy initiative, President Bush kicked off the week with a tour of a hybrid battery laboratory, and a solar-panel manufacturing plant in the Midwest, and today is in Colorado. Later this week, administration officials will attend events nationwide, touting upcoming energy initiatives.

The president’s plan does not take us to an energy future based on renewable energy and does nothing to address the growing threat from global warming. Funding for renewable technologies has been gutted since 2001, and only recently has been made a policy priority. Although the administration supports a small increase in fuel economy standards, it does not want to extend the standards to light trucks and SUVs. The Bush administration continues to ignore the overwhelming consensus of its own scientists that conclude that humans are driving a rapid change in the earth’s delicate climate systems. Greenpeace is calling on the Bush administration and Congress to create an energy policy that incorporates the following elements, rather than just paying lip-service to moving toward a renewable-based energy economy:
  • The doubling of current fuel economy standards by 2025, with a 50% increase for new vehicles by 2015.
  • No less than 25 percent of the nation’s liquid transportation fuels and electricity should be provided, or displaced by renewable sources, including renewably-generated hydrogen, and should be increased by at least on percent per year thereafter.
  • State and federal standards should mandate the energy efficiency of appliances, motors and lighting be improved by no less than 20% by 2025.
  • Energy use in the electricity sector reduced by at least 10% by 2025, through improved energy storage and transmission technologies.
  • The expansion of renewable energy, efficiency and generator technologies should be encouraged through tax incentives, government procurement, and planning programs.
  • Increased funding for research, development and deployment of renewable energy and efficiency technologies; doubled over the next five years, and be expanded to five times the current levels by 2025. This funding should come from gradually increased dedicated taxes on carbon-based fuels, energy imports, and fossil-fuel leases on federal lands.
  • Licenses for new nuclear power plants should not be extended or renewed, and nuclear funds should be directed towards plant decommissioning, waste clean-up, storage and disposal.
“The President’s PR tour is no substitute for substance,” said Chris Miller, Greenpeace energy campaigner. “We need these pragmatic, prudent and necessary policy changes if we are going to stop global warming and lead the U.S. towards a clean energy future. If we refuse to act now, we do so at our own peril,” he continued.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-12-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. A link that's only 2-1/2 years old
I guess I should be thankful for what I can get.

I wonder if the Nationwide Hydrogen Tour is using only clean hydrogen, which according to GP is that generated only by renewable energy sources.
It's highly unlikely that they are, and thus GP isn't on board after all...

N'est-ce pas? :D
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-12-08 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. And you still haven't produced a single scrap of evidence to support your conclusion
Please... produce one tiny bit of evidence to support your claim. Just one.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-12-08 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Now now.
Is the Nationwide Hydrogen Tour using only hydrogen produced by renewables or not?

Let's see if OKIsItJustMe can step up to the plate.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-12-08 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. OK come back...I miss you
:D

While you're over there fuming in silence, I thought I'd send over some reading material about your employer former employer benefactor PR agency's client pimp Favorite Corporation For No Particular Reason General Motors, also courtesy of Greenpeace:

GM's Attempt to Greenwash Its Image

http://stopgreenwash.org/casestudy_gm

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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-12-08 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Why are you breaking his balls???
WTF is that all about? He is simply reporting an event, and you skewer him like he is responsible? What a crock of shit, and by the way, all fucking hydrogen propelled cars are experimental, and until a national roll out of fueling the vehicles (way in the future) is decided, it doesn't matter shit to Shinola where the hydrogen comes from, because so fucking little is being used it doesn't put a dent in the global warming process.

Get real. What a complete crock of shit you spewed this entire thread.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. More here...
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