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Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy |
OKIsItJustMe (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-12-08 05:07 PM Original message |
Fighting Big Solar: Environmentalists clash over paving the desert in order to save the planet |
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phantom power (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-12-08 05:08 PM Response to Original message |
1. There is no risk free energy. |
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texastoast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-12-08 05:14 PM Response to Original message |
2. I might get flamed for this |
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NNadir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-12-08 05:27 PM Response to Original message |
3. Wait until we get around to a discussion of where to dump the waste. |
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qwlauren35 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-12-08 06:07 PM Response to Reply #3 |
4. Solar Waste? |
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phantom power (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-12-08 06:10 PM Response to Reply #4 |
5. Well, here's an example: |
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NNadir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-12-08 06:14 PM Response to Reply #4 |
6. This is NOT a joke. |
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texastoast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-12-08 06:20 PM Response to Reply #6 |
7. True, there is waste |
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NNadir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-12-08 06:24 PM Response to Reply #7 |
8. There has been whiz bang technology announced every 10 minutes connected with solar electricity. |
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texastoast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 11:46 AM Response to Reply #8 |
28. Maybe this time is different |
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n2doc (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-12-08 08:21 PM Response to Reply #3 |
11. You ever seen a tar sands mine? |
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tinrobot (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 12:14 AM Response to Reply #3 |
20. How about Yucca Mountain? |
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SnoopDog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-12-08 07:25 PM Response to Original message |
9. Why does this solar energy cost 15 to 17 cents? |
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jberryhill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-12-08 09:13 PM Response to Reply #9 |
12. Because solar cells are not free |
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SnoopDog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-12-08 09:29 PM Response to Reply #12 |
13. What? |
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jberryhill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-12-08 10:29 PM Response to Reply #13 |
14. First, let's decide which technologies you want to compare, and then we can compare them... |
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SnoopDog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-12-08 10:42 PM Response to Reply #14 |
16. Ok thanks anyway...? |
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jberryhill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-12-08 11:13 PM Response to Reply #16 |
17. "COST PER KW" |
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kristopher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 12:16 AM Response to Reply #17 |
21. Nanosolar thin film panels are down to $0.95/watt with 14% CF. nt |
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jberryhill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-12-08 11:51 PM Response to Reply #16 |
18. Okay, here's the cost structure |
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kristopher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 12:18 AM Response to Reply #18 |
22. coal jumped to nearly $100/s.t. this year and carbon caps are yet to come. nt |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 10:47 AM Response to Reply #18 |
25. Your cost accounting is too simplistic |
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jberryhill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 11:10 AM Response to Reply #25 |
26. No shit, really? |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 12:21 PM Response to Reply #26 |
30. "can be compared in $/Watt." |
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jberryhill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 02:07 PM Response to Reply #30 |
37. "Fundamentally flawed" |
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oldhippie (355 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 06:51 PM Response to Reply #37 |
46. Unfortunately, half the people in this forum don't know the difference ... |
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SnoopDog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 08:12 PM Response to Reply #46 |
48. Ok, you are an experienced EE person, so I ask you... |
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oldhippie (355 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 09:50 PM Response to Reply #48 |
49. I'll give it a shot ........... |
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SnoopDog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 10:19 PM Response to Reply #49 |
52. Thanks... |
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kristopher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-14-08 04:54 AM Response to Reply #52 |
54. You've actually taken the wrong message away from the explanation |
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Indenturedebtor (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-15-08 06:50 AM Response to Reply #18 |
66. So 30 years ago solar wasn't feasible? I'm shocked! |
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Finishline42 (167 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 05:05 PM Response to Reply #14 |
43. So if we use more realistic numbers |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 10:27 AM Response to Reply #13 |
23. You are asking an excellent question. Don't let the "smarter than thou" types throw you off. |
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jberryhill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 11:16 AM Response to Reply #23 |
27. "if government industrial policy picks up the investment costs" |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 12:17 PM Response to Reply #27 |
29. How much did your first pc cost? |
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jberryhill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 02:04 PM Response to Reply #29 |
36. Hamden, you are missing the point |
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Finishline42 (167 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 01:31 PM Response to Reply #27 |
33. As pointed out elsewhere in the thread |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-14-08 08:37 AM Response to Reply #33 |
56. Excellent points, all nt |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 01:08 PM Response to Reply #23 |
32. I'm trying not to let the "smarter than thou" types throw me off |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 02:32 PM Response to Reply #32 |
39. Providing numbers is false certainty if the numbers are garbage |
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jberryhill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 04:36 PM Response to Reply #39 |
40. okay, then you don't want to explain the difference betwen $/W and $/Wh /nt |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 04:39 PM Response to Reply #39 |
42. OK, point taken. |
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SnoopDog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 01:40 PM Response to Reply #23 |
34. Thanks for your response. Still doesn't add up - at least to me... |
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jberryhill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 02:00 PM Response to Reply #34 |
35. Hamden, do you see what I mean? |
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SnoopDog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 02:14 PM Response to Reply #35 |
38. Well now Doctor.... |
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jberryhill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 04:37 PM Response to Reply #38 |
41. Well if you know the difference |
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kristopher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 06:05 PM Response to Reply #35 |
44. That isn't correct, JB. |
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jberryhill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 07:55 PM Response to Reply #44 |
47. I'm aware of what goes into the charge on the bill.... |
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kristopher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-14-08 05:01 AM Response to Reply #47 |
55. Don't take offense... |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-14-08 08:38 AM Response to Reply #47 |
57. You made a good point, so no need to take offense, but ... |
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ChazII (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Aug-16-08 03:06 AM Response to Reply #35 |
73. Thank you for your common sense. |
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Fledermaus (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-14-08 12:08 AM Response to Reply #9 |
53. Solar thermal plants...not PV panels |
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caraher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-12-08 08:08 PM Response to Original message |
10. That waste is from producing photovoltaic panels |
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jberryhill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-12-08 10:34 PM Response to Reply #10 |
15. Steam engines are not a "young technology" /nt |
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kristopher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 12:12 AM Response to Reply #10 |
19. The energy payback on solar PV is between 1-4 years |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 10:44 AM Response to Reply #19 |
24. Exactly |
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kristopher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 06:09 PM Response to Reply #24 |
45. Which is where V2G enters the picture. |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-14-08 03:11 PM Response to Reply #45 |
58. That would be very nice... |
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kristopher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-14-08 03:48 PM Response to Reply #58 |
59. How do you make that determination? |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-14-08 04:06 PM Response to Reply #59 |
60. The big difference is technology type |
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kristopher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-14-08 11:38 PM Response to Reply #60 |
63. We will see, won't we. nt |
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Finishline42 (167 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-15-08 09:57 AM Response to Reply #60 |
67. That is not the problem |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-15-08 10:41 AM Response to Reply #67 |
68. Apparently you don't know what the term "Marginal Cost" means |
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Finishline42 (167 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-15-08 12:27 PM Response to Reply #68 |
69. Yes the marginal cost of the materials for batteries are higher |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-15-08 12:35 PM Response to Reply #69 |
70. Yes |
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kristopher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-15-08 10:37 PM Response to Reply #70 |
72. You might want to adjust your expectations for the batteries |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-14-08 07:06 PM Response to Reply #59 |
62. Look at the history of television sets |
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caraher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-14-08 06:57 PM Response to Reply #19 |
61. Hmmm... OK, I think I know what the issue was with the sources I'm remembering |
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kristopher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-15-08 12:03 AM Response to Reply #61 |
64. My guess was that you had crossed energy and monetary paybacks. nt |
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caraher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-15-08 09:48 PM Response to Reply #64 |
71. I know it wasn't money |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 12:59 PM Response to Original message |
31. The solar power cartel gets a taste of NIMBY |
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XemaSab (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 09:57 PM Response to Reply #31 |
50. I think I worked on that project |
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bananas (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-15-08 04:47 AM Response to Reply #50 |
65. Maybe you should work for UCAN. |
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excess_3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-13-08 10:10 PM Response to Original message |
51. Big Carbon is coming .n/t |
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