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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 03:08 PM
Original message
Cycle Law: Should Bikes Be Treated Like Cars?
Edited on Mon Aug-03-09 03:08 PM by phantom power
One of the beauties of bike riding is the freedom. You buy one, or find one, and just jump on. There are no taxes, no fuel to buy and almost anything that goes wrong can be fixed by the rider. They’re also cheap enough that anyone can own one.

But should bikes be treated more like cars? Further, is it even possible to do so? Bike riding seems to be getting more and more popular, a result of green concerns, money concerns and the attentions of politicians. London Mayor Boris Johnson plans to spend £111 million on cycling infrastructure in the capital in the coming year. It might not surprise you to learn that Johnson is a keen cyclist.

So as the use of bikes explodes, and bike-sharing schemes in many European cities bloom, are we heading for a changes in the law?

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/08/cycle-law-should-bikes-be-treated-like-cars/
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taterguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. This thread would be a lot more fun posted in GD
I'll respond to it later when I have more time
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
2. We already have lots of bike laws
The trouble is just that most people do not know them. I see people biking against traffic, never making hand signals, and ignoring bike lanes to take the sidewalk. To say nothing of just plain unsafe practices.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. In New York State (at least) Bicycles are nominally treated like other vehicles under the law
Edited on Mon Aug-03-09 03:22 PM by OKIsItJustMe
http://www.nysgtsc.state.ny.us/bike-vt.htm#sec1231

Section 1231. Traffic laws apply to persons riding bicycles or skating or gliding on in-line skates.

Every person riding a bicycle or skating or gliding on in-line skates upon a roadway shall be granted all of the rights and shall be subject to all of the duties applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this title, except as to special regulations in this article and except as to those provisions of this title which by their nature can have no application.

Section 1234. Riding on roadways, shoulders, bicycle or in-line skates lanes and bicycle or in-line skates paths.

(a) Upon all roadways, any bicycle or in-line skates shall be driven either on a usable bicycle or in-line skates lane or, if a usable bicycle or in-line skates lane has not been provided, near the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway or upon a usable right-hand shoulder in such a manner as to prevent undue interference with the flow of traffic except when preparing for a left turn or when reasonably necessary to avoid conditions that would make it unsafe to continue along near the right-hand curb or edge. Conditions to be taken into consideration include, but are not limited to, fixed or moving objects, vehicles, bicycles, in-line skates, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards or traffic lanes too narrow for a bicycle or person on in-line skates and a vehicle to travel safely side-by-side within the lane.

(b) Persons riding bicycles or skating or gliding on in-line skates upon a roadway shall not ride more than two abreast. Persons riding bicycles or skating or gliding on in-line skates upon a shoulder, bicycle or in-line skates lane, or bicycle or in-line skates path, intended for the use of bicycles or in-line skates may ride two or more abreast if sufficient space is available, except that when passing a vehicle, bicycle or person on in-line skates, or pedestrian, standing or proceeding along such shoulder, lane or path, persons riding bicycles or skating or gliding on in-line skates shall ride, skate, or glide single file. Persons riding bicycles or skating or gliding on in-line skates upon a roadway shall ride, skate, or glide single file when being overtaken by a vehicle.

(c) Any person operating a bicycle or skating or gliding on in-line skates who is entering the roadway from a private road, driveway, alley or over a curb shall come to a full stop before entering the roadway.



I believe this is as it should be.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. no, they should not
end of discussion, imo.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I'm interested that opinions vary widely on this question.
I started a food-fight about this last year in E/E, and I was amused that I'm not the only one who is questioning whether bikes should be treated legally the same way as ICE automobiles.

My current bias toward assigning bikes into some other legal category is mostly based on the fact that bikes are in a completely different realm of mass and operating speed than modern automobiles. In an accident between a bike and a car, the biker fares very badly. I originally proposed having bikers be legal pedestrians, which a lot of people really disagreed with on the grounds that bikes operate in a rather different speed range than a walking human.

I'm not sure what to make of it, except that maybe it's a sign that bikes are really their own third category. But I don't see pragmatically how bikes can share either a road or a sidewalk and be governed by a third set of rules.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Most traffic laws boil down to safety. Bicyclists should be "required" to ride safely.
Edited on Mon Aug-03-09 04:24 PM by OKIsItJustMe
So, for example, in New York State, bicycles are http://www.nysgtsc.state.ny.us/bike-vt.htm#sec1236">legally required to have head and tail lights, "during the period from one-half hour after sunset to one-half hour before sunrise." However, this law is commonly flouted. I'd like to see it enforced, for the sake of the cyclists.

Bicyclists are legally required to ride with traffic, not against it. However, misinformed bicyclists ride against traffic "for safety's sake" even though it is http://www.bicyclinglife.com/Library/riskfactors.htm">much more dangerous. I'd like to see this law enforced, especially for the sake of small children, whose parents have told them to ride against the flow of traffic.

Bicyclists are legally required to ride on the road, and not on the sidewalk, but well-meaning parents tell their children to ride on the sidewalk even though it is http://www.bicyclinglife.com/Library/riskfactors.htm">more dangerous.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I'm much safer riding on the sidewalk.
On the other hand, sidewalks aren't all that heavily used in my neighborhood. If they were full of lots of pedestrians, that equation might be different.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. No, actually, you aren't
Check out Table 2.
http://www.bicyclinglife.com/Library/riskfactors.htm
(You're at about 2½ times the risk riding on the sidewalk.)
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. That table notwithstanding...
Perhaps I should explain what my local choices look like: I can ride the bike lane on Guadalupe, where I will have heavy traffic moving past me at 55mph, with nothing but a white line and a foot or so of distance between me and fast metal. Or I can be up on the sidewalk, which even in pleasant weather is infrequently populated by pedestrians, and there is a comfortable 15 feet and a curb between me and the cars.

In the future when the sidewalks are full of people not driving, I imagine I'll just use the bike lane.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. "The weight of the evidence notwithstanding, I will hold to my beliefs." ;-)
Edited on Mon Aug-03-09 05:03 PM by OKIsItJustMe
There are a number of reasons why riding on a sidewalk is more dangerous. One clear reason is that most bicycle/motor vehicle accidents happen at intersections.

http://www.bicyclinglife.com/Library/riskfactors.htm


Bicycle accidents at intersections accounted for 237 of 371 total bicycle accidents (64 per­cent), and 233 of 314 bicycle-motor vehicle col­lisions (74 percent). We define an intersec­tion broadly as any point where turning or crossing movements are possible for the bicy­clist or the motorist. The definition therefore includes not only the junction of two roadways, but also points where driveways, sidewalks, or paths meet a roadway, or where sidewalks or paths meet a driveway.

The large fraction of accidents that occurred at intersections indicates that these are the major points of conflict between bicyclists and motor­ists. Overtaking accidents, in which a bicyclist in the roadway was struck from behind by a motorist traveling in the same direction, accounted for only 5 of 314 bicycle-motor vehicle collisions, and sideswipes for 8. The remaining non-intersection collisions included those in which a bicyclist overtook a parked or parking motor vehicle, a motorist opened the door of a parked car into the bicyclist's path, or a motorist or bicyclist changed lanes improperly.



If you're riding on a sidewalk, when you come to an intersection, you aren't where drivers are looking for traffic. (Think of your behavior at a stop sign. Where do you look for traffic?)
http://www.bicyclinglife.com/Library/TaleOfThree.htm


The sort of collision most cyclists worry about (the "overtaking" collision, where a cyclist is hit from behind by a motor vehicle) are actually relatively uncommon!
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. touche, rabbit.
The reason I worry about an overtaking collision is because at those speeds it would kill me. One thing I'd be curious about is to see those same tables, conditioned on only accidents that involved serious injury or fatality. Not that bikers aren't also killed at intersections.

I was interested in this comment, mostly because I'm a profoundly cowardly biker, and I cross any kind of intersection or driveway defensively:

Even right-way sidewalk bicyclists can cross driveways and enter intersections at high speed, and they may enter from an unexpected position and direction—for instance, on the right side of overtaking right-turning traffic. Sidewalk bicy­clists are more likely than roadway bicyclists to be obscured at intersections by parked cars, buildings, fences, and shrubbery; their stopping distance is much greater than a pedestrian’s, and they have less maneuverability.

In addition to the hazards of motor vehicles at intersections (including driveways), sidewalks also present bicyclists with conflicts with pedestrians, joggers, skateboarders, roller skat­ers, and wheelchairs, and with fixed objects such as parking meters, utility poles, signposts, benches, trees, hydrants, and mailboxes. These hazards, which are not included in the present study, might further elevate the accident rate for sidewalk bicyclists.


This was pretty interesting too: wrong-way cycling is obviously a big no-no.

Table 4 shows that wrong-way sidewalk travel is 4.5 times as dangerous as right-way sidewalk travel. Moreover, both Table 4 and Table 5 show that sidewalk bicycling promotes wrong-way travel: 315 of 971 sidewalk bicyclists (32 percent) rode against the direction of traffic, compared to only 108 of 2005 roadway bicyclists (5 percent).

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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Actually, I sympathize
There's this bridge in town…

The posted limit is 45, but… cars going 55 impede the flow of traffic. There are bicycle lanes on both sides, marked with a simple white line, and painted bicyclists (or perhaps flattened bicyclists.) There are also seldom-used sidewalks…

My general approach to this is to avoid that bridge altogether; but on the rare occasion when I do cross it for some reason, those sidewalks are sure tempting…
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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-04-09 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. In those cases, I do use sidewalks.
I ride a lot, and I mostly use bike lanes or ride with traffic. I stay off the sidewalk because the street is the safer option. I firmly believe that being seen is the key to not being hit. Much better to be properly in traffic and have a ticked off motorist cursing you (and watching you) rather than one not even seeing you and hitting you.

However, if there's a long stretch of unused sidewalk to my right and traffic over 40-50mph to my left, then I'll use the sidewalk. At that point in my trip, it really is the safer option.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-04-09 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. "…being seen is the key to not being hit…"
The mantra I taught my God-son was "Be predictable. Don't surprise anyone."

This extends to all sorts of behaviors, like riding the the right places, using proper hand-signals, using lights…
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-04-09 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #11
37. Thanks for posting those tables, by the way.
They seem like a good resource as more people start biking.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. A common misconception
In CA bicycles are not specifically prohibited from riding on the sidewalk, and in many cases are protected if they are struck by a vehicle while riding there.

Can you provide some law?
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. What is a common misconception?
That it is less safe for a bicycle to ride on a sidewalk than on the road?
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. That it's illegal. nt
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-04-09 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. In New York, it is
I was referring to NYS traffic law.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-04-09 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Not prohibited in NYS
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-04-09 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. No. Not only in NYC, and not only age 14+
Edited on Tue Aug-04-09 08:53 AM by OKIsItJustMe
It's up to individual "localities." (The ones I'm familiar with have similar laws to NYC.)

http://www.nysgtsc.state.ny.us/media/share-road.htm
Q. What about sidewalks?

A. The driver of a vehicle, when entering or exiting from an alleyway, building, private road or driveway must yield the right-of-way to any pedestrian on a sidewalk.

Pedestrians are required to use sidewalks where they are provided and safe to use. When sidewalks are not provided, a pedestrian is required to walk on the left side of the roadway FACING traffic.

In-line skaters and bicyclists are required to come to a full stop before entering a roadway from any private road, driveway, alley or curb, and should always yield to pedestrians.

Some localities prohibit bicycling on sidewalks. Please familiarize yourself with local rules of the road and follow them.


And, you misread the NYC law:
http://law.onecle.com/new-york/new-york-city-administrative-code/ADC019-176_19-176.html
§ 19-176 Bicycle operation on sidewalks prohibited. a. For purposes of
this section:
(1) The term "bicycle" shall mean a two or three wheeled device upon
which a person or persons may ride, propelled by human power through a
belt, a chain or gears, with such wheels in a tandem or tricycle, except
that it shall not include such a device having solid tires and intended
for use only on a sidewalk by a child.

(2) The term "sidewalk" shall mean that portion of the street, whether
paved or unpaved, between the curb lines or the lateral lines of a
roadway and the adjacent property lines, intended for the use of
pedestrians. Where it is not clear which section is intended for the use
of pedestrians the sidewalk will be deemed to be that portion of the
street between the building line and the curb.
(3) The term "child" shall mean a person less than fourteen years of
age.
b. No person shall ride a bicycle upon any sidewalk unless permitted
by an official sign
. A person who violates this subdivision may be
issued a notice of violation and shall be liable for a civil penalty of
not more than one hundred dollars which may be recovered in a proceeding
before the environmental control board.



It's not that children are permitted to ride bicycles on the sidewalk, it's that something with solid wheels intended only for use by a child, and only for use on a sidewalk (say a "pedal car") is not considered a bicycle.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-04-09 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. No, actually you misread the law.
Edited on Tue Aug-04-09 09:00 AM by wtmusic
Where do you see "pedal car"? In fact most tricycles and some bicycles would qualify. Are there lots of 13-year-olds driving pedal cars in your locality?

Now - "Riding a bike on the sidewalk is not prohibted by the State of New York." Say it nice and slow, then admit you were wrong, if you can. Feels good, doesn't it? :eyes:

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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-04-09 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. I gave "pedal car" as an example
Edited on Tue Aug-04-09 09:41 AM by OKIsItJustMe
A poor example, since they typically do not have 2 or 3 wheels.

A better example would be a "big wheel" (if they're still sold.)

The law does not permit "children" to ride bicycles on the sidewalk in NYC (the law says that no one can.) It simply clarifies the definition of bicycle. So, for example, a tricycle with inflated wheels could not be ridden on the sidewalk.

I admit that NYS (unlike NYC) apparently does not have a blanket law at this time prohibiting the use of bicycles on sidewalks. When I learned bicycle safety, I believe we did. (However, perhaps it was only in our area.)

https://www.nysdot.gov/divisions/operating/opdm/local-programs-bureau/biking


Bicyclists have the legal right to share the road on most public highways, but it is prohibited on interstate highways and expressways (Sec. 1229-a of the Vehicle and Traffic Law and Sec. 316 of the Highway Law). In addition, authorities with jurisdiction over other controlled-access highways may prohibit bicycles (Sec. 109, and Sec. 1621(a)(2), 1641(1) and 1660(12)). Localities often prohibit bicycling on sidewalks. However, some local ordinances do permit children to bicycle on sidewalks. For your safety and that of pedestrians, however, you should avoid busy city sidewalks whether or not restricted by law.

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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-04-09 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #34
35.  I have talked to DA's and cops about the law here in CA
and there seems to be a great deal of latitutde when it comes to interpretation/enforcement.

I would like to see stats broken down for very young children. Even in prohibited areas, I can't imagine municipalities want 6-year-old Johnny riding down a street in traffic to his friend's house.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-04-09 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. Most bicycle laws seem to be selectively enforced if they are enforced at all
For example, NYS law requires a headlight and a taillight after dark. However, many bicyclists ride with no light whatsoever.

NYS law requires a horn or bell, but most bicycles do not have them.

NYS law requires a bicycle to be ridden with traffic, and not against it, but many many bicyclists ride against traffic.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-04-09 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. Because the enforcement mechanism encourages enforcement against cars
People forget the chief reason states started to require people to have Driver's Licenses was NOT to make sure drivers knew the rules of the road, but to provide a quick way to give out tickets (And the revenue from paying for the license, but that is another story). Right now if you are driving your car and stopped by a Police Officer he gives you a ticket based on the information on your license. You then go to Court if you want to fight the ticket. That system works if a person has a license, no license how do you make sure the person you pulled over is the person whose name and address he gives the officer? The answer is the police has to use the "Traditional" way to make such an arrest, haul the violator to the local Justice of the Peace (JP for short) and force him or her to post a bond equal to the amount of the fine. That way, if the violator shows up or not the fine is paid. The down side of this is the Officer is off task of giving out tickets for how long he has to go to the JP and back to his area of enforcement. If the person has a driver's license that problem is avoided, writing a ticket is all that is needed, if it is not paid the license can be revoked AND the person arrested for the license has the violators address on it.

Cyclist do NOT need to have any license to operate their bikes on the streets of the US. Many cyclists are to young to have driver's licenses. Most Police Departments in most cities are self -sufficient when it comes to revenues, the tickets the police write, when paid, pay for the Police, In this regard writing tickets to car drivers is a profit center for most police departments. While most police departments have adopted rules to appear to cut down on ticket writing, most police departments Culture reinforces the need to give out tickets (Even when no "bounty" is paid for each ticket written). I do not care how honest an officer is, if the pressure is one from above to write more tickets he or she will do so (And if the pressure from above is NOT to write tickets then tickets will drop). For this discussion I am discussing ticket writing NOT as a revenue source but how ticket writing and the cost incurred in writing a ticket affects enforcement of the laws, including laws on cyclists. My point is that police departments do not want their officers tied up hauling a traffic violator to a JP just because he has no license and did not need to have one (Cyclists for example) but prefer to give tickets to people who they do NOT have to haul in front of a JP do to the fact such people have a license (and lack of License can lead to jail time so most people carry their license even when NOT operating a Car).

Thus the police have a problem when it comes to cyclists, no cyclist have to have a license or any other form of ID. Many cyclists do NOT have ID, many are high school students, people who never had or lost their licenses or people who did not bother to bring it with them since they are biking NOT driving a car. To such people any officer can not just write a ticket for any violation (While you can NOT lie to the officer, it does happen, and God Forbid if someone takes the fifth as to his or her name). The officer MUST take the person under arrest and to the Local JP who must require a bond or jail the violator. This takes time, and most cities want their officers on the street NOT in Court (And this is true even in Cities where the Police are noted for NOT giving out tickets). Thus officers are in a bind when it comes to Cyclists, the time needed to process such an arrest exceeds the time for an arrest of a automobile operator if the cyclist does NOT have a driver's license on him or her. To avoid the bind, Officers just tend to avoid giving tickets to cyclists. I wish more Police Departments would give out warnings to such cyclist, rather then fining them but most Police Departments are under pressure to bring in revenue and that means tickets not warnings.

Given the above, how do we solve the problem of cyclists NOT obeying traffic laws. The answer is a multi-level programs as outlined below:

1. Each school, Starting in Middle school (About 5th through 8th grade) should have a required class on bicycle safety and laws. This should be given every year to every class. It has to be more then a lecture on safe bicycle operations but movies on how to ride a bike on a public road (Including the need to obey traffic lights and rules of the road).

2. Aggressive police action of giving out warnings (Not tickets) to cyclists who violate the rules of the road. The main purpose of this is to educate cyclists of the rules of the road and NOT to violate them.

3. If you have a cyclist with a history of violating a traffic law (as oppose to someone who violates different laws over the years, for example riding on sidewalks in a business district and then riding without lights after dark) ticket that person.

4. Police should carry LED Bicycle lights in their cars, to install on bikes without lights and tell the rider DO NOT OPERATE the bike after dark without lights. LED lights can be bought for $10 a light and this should be two lights, a red tail light and clear "headlight" (I.e. clear as opposed to red, little or no projection of light the purpose is to be seen not to see). The Officer should install them on the bike and tell the kid NOT to ride a bike without lights in the future. Maybe just because I grew up in an old coal patch, but many families may be able to afford a bike for their kid but not a light. Giving the kid a warning to have a light is meaningless in such situations, providing the light solves the problem and given the cheap price, especially if purchased in bulk, a cheap solution to a known problem. Bicycle helmets should also be provided, cheap ones can be purchased for less then $10 each, if the officers want to install LED lights to the front and rear of such helmets, through if that is done such lights should be in addition to lights installed on the bike itself.

The above will take time, but within a year you will start to see results, if you add in TV programs that shows that it is safer to follow the rules then not to (NOT ads in the classic sense, but the TV programs themselves with that message) the results will be quickly seen. You need to attack the problem on as many fronts as possible and the above attacks the problem in three different ways, each reinforcing the others.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. Given it is UNSAFE for Bicycle to go on sidewalks, where do you want them to Ride?
People tend to forget that most roads (i.e. with the sole exceptions of Limited access Highways) were designed for horse drawn wagons not cars. Since Cars started to operate on roads, roads have been improved, but even paving of urban roads predate cars (Most cities had their road paved by 1900, just to keep the dust down, in fact one of the big pushes for Streetcars in the 1890s and early 1900s was the streetcar operators would pave the roads the streetcars were to operate on). With the advent of gasoline taxes, highway improvements improved, but Streetcars still had duties to maintain and repair the streets such cars operated on (And was one of the main reason Streetcars were replaced by buses starting in the 1930s, Bus lines did NOT have to maintain the roadway, while Streetcars operators had to).

As to Sidewalks, Sidewalks started as wooden Sidewalks in urban areas to permit people go from house to house and business to business while staying out of the muddy streets as much as possible. By 1900 the movement was to Concrete Sidewalks, but Wooden Sidewalks lasted till the 1930s (As did wooded roads, often called "Plank Roads", such Plank Woods were good for horse-drawn wagons but as automobiles started to use them and needed "High speed" rubber tires, the nails that held such Plank woods together became a bother and were replaced).

Now sidewalks were NEVER intended for any high speed traffic, and what I mean by High Speed traffic is anything faster then a walking pace. In the 1990s Pennsylvania had adopted a law that if a bike path was along the side of a road all cyclists had to use that bike path NOT the road. This lead to a disaster in what Allegheny County Calls "South Park". The county had built a bike path along an abandoned right of way of an elevated rubber tire transportation system (Called Skybus, the Vehicles were never used as mass transit but the technology was used in the various people movers used in many modern airports). The posts for the elevated system was removed and the path the system followed was graded as a Bike Path. The bike path went up and down slopes and had some radical turns in them. Sight distances were limited do to these turns and hills. The path was fully capable of being used by people on foot or low speed bicycles but on any bicycle capable of going over 5mph, would lack the sight distance to stop before hitting someone. This combination lead to a cyclist, going full speed on his bicycle, going on the path, as he was required by the above law to do, hitting and killing a pedestrian who had stopped to talk to another on the trail, a common occurrence on sidewalks and other places where pedestrians travel. The County and the State were in a bind. Unlike local municipalities, County Governments are viewed as agents of the State, thus what the County does affect the state. In this case it was clear that the bike path violated any design rules for bike paths AND this had been brought to the County's attention when the trail was proposed. The fall back position that the cyclist was the cause of the accident for no speed limit had been posted AND the proximate cause of the accident was the lack of sight distance given the speed the cyclist was going. The county could NOT use the speed of the Cyclist as a defense, for it was while within speeds achieved on bike races and much higher speeds are designed into trails in almost all rail to trail paths. The final defense, that the Cyclist should have operated his high speed bike on the road was defeated by the above Statute REQUIRING him to use the path. Thus there was no defense and the county and the state had to pay (technically the person who designed the path had to pay for the state was exempt under the doctrine of Sovereign Immunity, but most engineers have a clause in their contracts with the state that if they are held liable the state will pay, especially if they note the problem with the designed and are overridden, which appears to be this situation in the above case).

Anyway, in response the State changed their laws as to Cyclist. Since the 1990s it is no longer required in Pennsylvania for any cyclist to use a bike path. Furthermore cyclist are permitted, but not required to use sidewalks except in business districts (Cyclist can NOT use sidewalks in business districts).

As to roads, cyclist has the same right as any other user of that road. People tend to forget that pedestrians have the right to use any road in the United States (With the exceptions of roads, designed, built and paid for by automobile operators, i.e. toll roads, interstate highways and other limited access highways). This reflects the right of movement long held by the US Supreme Court. If you are traveling on a four lane highway, not limited access, with no sidewalks pedestrians have the right to walk along that highway, including on the pavement. Now how the state try to enforce this right is strange. For example I live in Cambria COunty Pa. Through the middle of the County goes US 22. US 22 had originally been an indian path (Called the Rayston Path) and have been improved over the years and given various names (Northern Pike was a named used for it in the late 1800s for example). It has been know by its Present name "William Penn Highway" since the 1920s (When what had been called the "Southern Pike" became known as the "Lincoln Highway", US 30). As such US 22 has always been a road where pedestrian could walk. Now, starting in the 1950s the State started to upgrade the highway by making it a four lane highway, with part of it limited access. The then new limited access parts could exclude pedestrians if the existing parts survived for use by pedestrians. Some parts did, some parts did not. This leads to weird situations, for example if I take what the local calls "Old US 219" from Johnstown to US 22, I come to old US 22 first, then 100 feet further on "Old US 219" I come to US 22, a limited access highway with signs saying "No Pedestrians". Yet if I take old US 22 to where it merges with present US 22 no such signs exist. Why? Simple, where old 22 still exists, pedestrians have the right to use that road and the state has the right to exclude them from the new road, but where the new road goes over the old road and no alternative exists, pedestrians have the right to walk on new US 22.

I go into the above for if Pedestrians can travel on the road so can Bicycles (and horse drawn wagons, through local municipalities can require diapers or clean up if the horse disburses manure in the streets, just like the state can require your car meats minimal safely requirements). The only issue is minimal safety requirements, which can NOT be used to ban pedestrian traffic, but can be used to regulate bicycle, horse drawn wagon and even Automotive traffic (Including reasonable regulations that in affect ban that means of transportation, for example banning horses do to desire to ban shit in the streets). This safety concern can NOT be a fear that undesirable would walk to town, the Courts have long ruled that bans for such reasons are unconstitutional (The New Orleans suburb that did this during Katrina is being used on this issue, but we are talking damages for the closing of the suburb was to short to get a Court Order to stop it during the aftermath of Katrina).

I go into the above to show that the problem is, and has been, that automobiles have been permitted on roads never intended for such high speed vehicles and that the law still fully expect roads to handle low speed traffic such as pedestrians even in areas with NO sidewalks or even shoulders. Given that sidewalks are dangerous for anyone NOT on foot, and do NOT exist on most roads outside of urban areas, treating bicycles differently then automobiles is untenable. You have to treat bicyclist like pedestrians who use those roads (And that fact pedestrians do NOT use the road is NOT a factor it is the ABILITY to use the road the court is looking at NOT if it is used). The State can make adjustments to reflect the speed of vehicles but can not ban slower vehicles (Except on roads designed, purchased and built to operate only such high speed vehicles). Thus the problem has been Automobiles, but the state legislators all drive automobiles and thus do NOT want to outlaw them, but that is what is mandated by law if a conflict exists between Vehicles and pedestrians. Thus the problem is ignored and will continue to be ignored for no one wants to restrict Automobiles.

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ejpoeta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
5. all i know is that according to the law, bikers are supposed to follow the same rules
as drivers. riding with traffic.... stopping at lights... observing all traffic rules. but i don't hardly see anyone on a bike following those rules. i do wish they had more bike friendly roads around here. i would love to be able to get back into biking again, but fear getting hurt. especially if i have one of those trailers for the little ones to ride in.... I haven't ridden a bike since my car accident in 1997, and i miss it terribly. i bought a bike last summer, but never got around to riding it. and this summer i am pregnant. i wonder if i could even do it anymore. i used to LOVE riding my bike. i rode to work.... rode all over the place. i'm not in great shape anymore though. probably would take a lot of work to get in the condition to ride again.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. "i wonder if i could even do it anymore"
Don't worry, "http://www.google.com/search?q=it's+like+riding+a+bicycle">It's like riding a bicycle." Just climb on the thing and push the pedals 'round, and you'll remember just how much fun it was and still is! (It's just like magic!)
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ejpoeta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. i got on it last summer and didn't fall over... but i don't know what gear it was in
but it was not in a very good gear for starting off... very loose. i hope you are right though. i sure did love it.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. If you are good with math…
Edited on Mon Aug-03-09 05:28 PM by OKIsItJustMe
…count the teeth on your gears, and figure out the ratios, front to back (the higher the ratio, the "higher" the gear.)

If you do this, you'll know how to shift gears to your best advantage.

If you aren't good with math, just know that the larger the gear in front or the smaller the gear in back, the harder it will be to pedal. Generally, I like to start out in a very "low" gear (small in front, large in back) and gradually shift "up" to the highest gear (largest in front, smallest in back.)
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ejpoeta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. i only know that i never liked the easiest gears.... i like SOME level
where i have to work because it will actually go. thanks for the help, though. i think i would be very happy with myself if i could manage to get myself back on a bike. lol.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Once I'm under way, I tend to ride in a very "high" gear (often the highest.)
However, if you haven't ridden for years, your knees may not appreciate that kind of stress.

Although you may feel like a goon, consider stopping by your local "drug store" and getting a pair of "knee braces" (not like Forest Gump's.) Look for something like an "Ace™ bandage" that you don't have to wrap yourself. If you like to ride in high gear, and you'll be riding more than a couple of miles, your knees will appreciate it. (I really liked the Futuro "Spiral" braces, but they don't seem to make them any more.)
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ejpoeta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. i do have one around here somewhere. it supports the knee. it just gets very hot.
but that might help. i will give it a try after i have the baby.... well, i'll give it a few weeks after. LOL! it will be october by then though. but weather shouldn't start getting bad til november hopefully.
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taterguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
8. The government will never ask cyclists to finance bike lanes . . .
Because then we'd have to have a discussion about how roads are paid for.

The current perception is that gas taxes pay for roads.

The reality is that gas taxes only cover a fraction of what the government spends building and maintaining roads.

Just last week Congress authorized $7 billion of general revenue funds to bail-out the Highway Trust Fund.

I don't know anyone who knows how much general revenue money is spent on roads and I've asked a lot of smart people.

In my town of about 200,000 people the city pays over $15,000,000 from general revenue funds for roads. That doesn't count expenditures by the federal and state government.

Fun thing to talk about though which is why I wish this thread was in GD where more people would read it.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
20. As the victim of several major bicycle accidents over the years, I certainly
favor bike laws, preferably at the expense of cars.

A bicycle can be a very dangerous device. Most of my serious accidents involved cars hitting me (one time deliberately, probably a Greenpeacer driving a huge SUV on the way to a http://www.greenpeace.org/international/news/naked-glacier-tunick-08182007">naked "protest" on a glacier), but one of my serious accidents simply involved me and my bicycle alone.

Bike laws, including helmet laws, are good things and I strongly support bicycle safety education and certification.
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Fledermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
22. There should be more bicycle lanes just for buckles. No cars allowed like Holland.
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stuntcat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-03-09 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
24. Bikes are fantastic, don't get me wrong!...
Edited on Mon Aug-03-09 09:19 PM by stuntcat
I haven't driven in about a decade, since I wrecked and then had to learn to walk again, so now I'm kinda slow and even though I look normal I'm not right, okay.
So I've been walking 5-15 miles a week around Arlington VA for years. It's usually nice, we're so modern here right? But I have been RUN DOWN by bikers on the sidewalk. Usually I see them coming (fast) and I can step to the grass or street and let them have the sidewalk, but a few times I've almost been knocked over and once scared from behind so bad I screamed! Screamed like some over-dramatic jerk? NO, like a brain-damaged lady going to get fucking groceries who got RUN DOWN by a bike on the sidewalk.. ON A ROAD THAT HAS A SPECIAL BIKE LANE.. BY A BIKER WHO LOOKED LIKE HE WAS 60, like why does that man need to overtake me from behind at 20 miles an hour?? asshole :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

so what I meant to say was bikes are the answer, bikes and trains, yadda yadda, I know it to be the fact. But please, if any of you people bike, remember the people on the sidewalk might be crazy :mad: If I could go back in time I'd knife that asshole :mad:
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