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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 02:14 PM
Original message
Is Texas a Wind-Power Success or Failure?
8.7%? Is that all Mr. Pickens' money bought him?
http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalcapital/2009/08/06/is-texas-a-wind-power-success-or-failure/">Is Texas a Wind-Power Success or Failure?

...

The Texas electricity authority, ERCOT, figures the state’s wind power capacity is only 8.7%. That means for every 100 megawatts installed in a wind farm, power authorities can only count on seeing 8.7 megawatts of electricity produced. That’s a lot less than the standard line that wind power in the U.S. produces at about 30% or 35% of its nominal capacity.

...

... Getting a handle on how much power wind farms actually produce is tricky business. ERCOT itself has danced between estimates at low as 3% and as high as 16% in recent years, before settling—temporarily—on the 8.7% figure. Temporarily, because the Texas Generation Adequacy Task Force is “concerned” with how ERCOT arrived at that figure and still aims to determine “the true capacity value of wind.”

The picture isn’t much different in the rest of the country. Electricity regulators and utilities have tried to get a handle on how much juice wind power actually produces, and estimates vary widely—from as low as 5% to as high as 30%. Last year’s NREL report has all the details.

...

The bottom line is that wind power is neither quite the laggard that Mr. Bryce makes it out to be, even in Texas—nor the panacea that many clean-energy advocates hope it will become. Things to keep in mind as the debate over America’s clean-energy revolution keeps simmering.

http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalcapital/2009/08/06/is-texas-a-wind-power-success-or-failure/">There's more ...

What's so hard about putting them offshore? Wind capacity factor is much better a couple of miles out. And if that should be a poor part of the world for wind, even a 20% capacity factor would take a lot of pressure off the Texas grid in the summertime.

--d!

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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. 8% is TEH SUK.
Man, that even makes PV look good.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
2. That number is useless garbage due to sampling bias.
Edited on Fri Aug-07-09 03:36 PM by kristopher
It is derived from a measure designed to capture data on thermal generation by sampling annually Mon-Friday, June-August for two hours per day (4-6PM).

It says nothing about the actual capacity factor of wind, but only speaks to the percentage of wind farms in Texas that are making contributions to ERCOT's grid during that period.

Capacity factor for wind cannot be extrapolated from that data.

ETA: It took all of 2 minutes to follow the link in the article and find this information. It is irresponsible of the WSJ to craft the article in the manner it did and is concrete evidence of a deliberate bias in their coverage. No surprise of course.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. You mean that using something called "real numbers" is sampling bias?
It's pretty funny how our "renewables will save us" group has a real, real, real, real, real, real, real, real, real, real, real, real, real, real, big problems with something called "real numbers."

It generally takes less than two minutes for a fundie anti-nuke to pretend to examine real numbers and get totally confused about what they mean, generally followed by hand-waving.

Now of course, if one actually knows what one is talking about, and isn't betting the future of humanity on cute little biases and fantasies, one can cite something called "data" which generally involves, um, "real numbers."

The rated capacity of the State of Texas for so called renewables was reported as of 2007 - most of them are so trivial in actual production that it is worthless to report them as independent power sources - as (in real numbers) 4,712 mega"watts" where the quotation marks refers to the fact that rating power as opposed to energy is generally a marketing fraud, usually used by people promoting very poorly reliable systems.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/st_profiles/sept04tx.xls">Texas POWER capacity, in Megawatts (Electric, not thermal).

The scientific unit for Watt - notice the lack of hand waving - is a joule/second. Note that the table gives power in electric watts, not thermal, although the number of fundie anti-nukes who understand thermodynamics is um, well, zero.

Thus a system available 362.25 days a year, 24 hours, seven days a week, produces - since a year has 31,557,600 seconds, produces for one megawatt, 31,577,600,000,000 joules, or 31 trillion joules. It follows that a reliable system that is available continuously that was rated at 4,712 MW should produce about 0.149 exajoules.

Regrettably for mystics who despise mathematics because they are completely unable to comprehend a shred of it, the actual energy production for so called "renewables," is also available:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/st_profiles/sept05tx.xls">Production, in Megawatt-HOURS, a unit of ENERGY.

The number of anti-nuke fundies - all of whom like to complain about nuclear energy's reliability using their ever special selective attention - who know how to covert "megawatt-hours" to megajoules, a simple matter of multiplying by the number of seconds in an hour (which is still 3600) is, um, zero. However, it is clear for everyone else, that as of 2006, Texas produced 1.03 trillion megawatt-HOURS of electricity in 2007 or in scientific (SI) units, 0.037 exajoules.

The reliability of all non-hydro renewables in Texas is thus calculable by simple division on a, um, third grade level.

Thus it is, overall, 24%.

The capacity factor of coal in Texas is 84.7%

The capacity factor of dangerous natural gas, is 23.6%

The capacity factor of of nuclear is 96.1%. This makes nuclear power the largest, by far, form of climate change gas free electricity in Texas, but also the most reliable of all forms of energy in Texas.

(This will not stop fundies - a fundie is a person who belittles any piece of evidence that contradicts his or her dogma - from claiming that nuclear is "unreliable".)

Thus the only form of energy that the weeny failed so called "renewable" industry could match in Texas would be dangerous natural gas - if and only if - so called renewables were available whenever needed.

However, there is a point missing in the hand waving, which is that dangerous natural gas plants in Texas - and in most parts of the country - are meant to meet peak demand and spinning reserve requirements and are available when needed, not just when a cooling breeze happens to be blowing and a fundie is making a "percent talk" claim, as in "wind power briefly supplies 10% of Texas electricity." (We see those kinds of posts continuously here.)

With this in mind, it is relatively easy to see why the gas capacity is 1496% larger (in percent talk) than so called "renewables." Because gas has a purpose other than marketing.

Personally, I favor phasing out dangerous natural gas - a position held by zero anti-nukes - most of whom are either paid or unpaid dangerous natural gas greenwashers.

Therefore I note that in the same period that renewables capacity increased in "percent talk" by 2800% (from 1990 to 2007) in Texas, the increase in dangerous natural gas capacity in Texas also increased by an amount that is actually 500% greater than the total PEAK capacity of so called "renewables."

Now we bring you back to your regularly scheduled dangerous fossil fuel shilling hand waving.

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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. No, I mean that the number presented was useless garbage due to sampling bias.
Edited on Fri Aug-07-09 07:54 PM by kristopher
Nothing in your post indicates that is incorrect. I suppose you probably think it is clever when you attempt to shift the deceit practiced by the WSJ on behalf of anti-wind economic interests into a recitation of the basics of what "capacity factor" actually is.
I will acknowledge the useful contribution your example makes to the discussion as there are certainly people who can benefit from seeing the way "capacity factor" is actually derived.

Although I'm sure it wasn't your intent, you have assisted greatly in providing a proof of my point. From the WSJ:
"The Texas electricity authority, ERCOT, figures the state’s wind power capacity is only 8.7%. That means for every 100 megawatts installed in a wind farm, power authorities can only count on seeing 8.7 megawatts of electricity produced. That’s a lot less than the standard line that wind power in the U.S. produces at about 30% or 35% of its nominal capacity."

Of course, your discussion needs context, so for that, let me contribute a snip from the wind power industry that addresses how this information fits into running a grid:
Energy, Capacity, and Flexibility
Reliable and cost-effective operation of the electric grid requires a mixture of three types of resources: energy (electricity), capacity (ability to generate electricity at a certain point in time), and flexibility (ability to "turn up" or "turn down" electricity generation as needed). Each of the various types of power plants that generate electricity – nuclear, coal, gas, hydroelectric, wind and others – may specialize in providing one or two of these attributes, but no power plant excels at providing all three.

"Baseload" plants, a term typically applied to nuclear or coal-fired power plants, provide energy and some capacity. Interestingly, other types of power plants can provide these resources, often at costs competitive with baseload plants. Wind plants can produce energy just as well or better than nuclear or coal plants, while natural gas plants can provide capacity at lower cost than nuclear or coal plants. Thus, baseload power is only one of many ways to provide the power system with energy and capacity.

Moreover, baseload power plants provide almost zero flexibility, even though flexibility is a power system need that is just as essential as energy or capacity. In contrast, wind energy makes very valuable contributions towards ensuring that the grid has the right mixture of energy, capacity, and flexibility.

First, let us explore further what is meant by “energy,” “capacity,” and “flexibility.” Energy on the grid is a measure of power provided over time, and can be calculated by multiplying the amount of power used or generated by the time that it was used or generated. Thus, energy is measured in watt-hours, or more commonly kilowatt-hours (the unit used on household electricity bills) and megawatt-hours (1 megawatt-hour, MWh, is equal to 1,000 kilowatt-hours, kWh). For grid operators and planners, having enough energy largely means having enough fuel that can be converted to electricity, and having a diversity of fuels that will be available at a reasonable cost.

Capacity is a measure of power provided or used in a single instant, and thus is measured in watts, kilowatts, and megawatts. Operators of the electric grid must ensure that they have enough generating resources to provide the power capacity that will be needed at any point in time. Typically, grid operators think about capacity on years-ahead basis when they are deciding what power plants to build, on a day-ahead basis when they are deciding what power plants they should have ready to operate the next day, and on a real-time basis when they decide what power plants to operate.

Flexibility is the ability of power output, or capacity, to change over a given period of time. One can speak about the flexibility of a single power plant or the combined flexibility of all power plants on the grid. Flexibility is critical for accommodating changes in electricity supply and demand that occur, often unexpectedly, as power plants go offline or as consumers turn appliances on and off. Demand for electricity can vary by a factor of three or more depending on the weather and the time of day and year, which means that hundreds of gigawatts (GW) flexibility must be built into the power system. Flexibility can be measured over different time periods: e.g., a power system might have the flexibility to increase generation by 1 GW over 1 hour and 3 GW over 5 hours, with each capability being important for reliable system operation.

Specialization and the Division of Labor Among Power Plants
A power plant may specialize in providing one or two of these power system needs, but no power plant excels at providing all three. As a result, it is important to have a diversity of generation resources on the grid. Table 1 lists the ability of different types of power plants to provide the attributes of energy, capacity, and flexibility.

> table 1 available here: http://www.awea.org/pubs/factsheets/Baseload_Factsheet.pdf. <

As the table illustrates, wind excels at providing energy, as its fuel source is free. Wind also provides some capacity, typically in a ratio of about one unit of capacity for every two units of average energy output. A wind plant’s exact amount of capacity varies depending on a number of site-specific factors, as well as the time horizon being considered.

Wind plants can also rapidly and precisely reduce their output on command, giving them excellent flexibility for reducing supply. Flexibility to increase power supply is much more difficult for wind plants, as doing so requires holding the plant below its potential output, sacrificing a significant amount of energy that could have been produced for free.

Nuclear and coal plants, conventionally thought of as “baseload” plants, are remarkably similar to wind plants in that they are predominantly energy resources. Like wind, their fuel costs and operating costs are very low. Nuclear and coal plants are capable of providing capacity at a level close to their maximum output. Even so, no power plant can be counted on to reliably provide capacity at its maximum output, as all plants experience mechanical, electrical, or other failures from time to time and must go offline with little notice. For example, nuclear power plants in the southeastern U.S. have been forced to shut down, some for periods of several weeks, because summertime heat waves raised the temperature of the water in the rivers they rely on for cooling their steam generators. Wind energy, by contrast, uses no water.

Coal and nuclear plants have very little flexibility -- it is difficult for them to increase or decrease their output in response to commands from the grid operator. Changing the output of a nuclear or coal plant requires changing the amount of heat traveling through the plant’s steam system. The resulting temperature fluctuations can cause thermal stress to plant equipment, significantly increasing maintenance expenses and causing safety concerns. In fact, because of these safety concerns, Nuclear Regulatory Commission regulations largely prohibit nuclear plants from changing their output.

Natural gas power plants are generally the opposite of nuclear and coal plants, providing significant amounts of flexibility and capacity but very little energy. This is not because natural gas plants are incapable of generating large amounts of energy, but rather due to the fact that gas power plants typically have very high operating costs because, as a fuel, natural gas is generally more expensive than coal.

However, gas plants, particularly combustion turbine (CT) plants, do excel at providing capacity and at changing their output rapidly. Combined-cycle (CC) natural gas plants are more efficient and thus have lower operating costs than combustion turbine plants, but the tradeoff is that they are generally less flexible. Gas plants are also stellar for providing capacity whenever it is needed, with a plant’s capacity value typically many times higher than its average capacity factor. The comparisons in Figure 1 below of what resources provide the U.S. grid’s mix of energy and capacity illustrate how coal and nuclear plants are used predominantly to provide energy, while natural gas plants specialize in providing capacity and flexibility.


You know, I think I understand your skewed response to my prior remarks. When you get down to it, you like "sampling bias" don't you? You attempt to employ it in nearly every semi-hysterical screed you type, so maybe it just chaps your ass so much when someone demonstrates how it is used to deceive that you have to try and confuse the issue.

I think people are smarter than that.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Hanlon's Razor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
(Or the laziness of reporters.)

I am constantly amazed how even the "trade press" cannot get simple facts straight in my discipline. The "popular media" is next to hopeless. Given that experience, I expect them to screw up in other fields as well. (That's why I try to find "primary sources" whenever possible.)
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I agree in most cases.
Edited on Fri Aug-07-09 08:00 PM by kristopher
However there is a very important political issue on the table at this moment and the WSJ is an active participant in the debate on the side of the discussion that opposes changes in the status quo. There are people who stand to lose vast wealth if any plan to deal with climate change successfully closes the coal industry down. They know this and they are not sitting idly by waiting for the epitaph to be written on their tombstone.

Under those circumstances I do not give the benefit of the doubt to stupidity.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. You've misunderstood the article - Pickens is getting a lot more than 8.7%
Edited on Fri Aug-07-09 03:36 PM by bananas
As explained in the article comments:
o 11:52 am August 6, 2009
o Michael Goggin, American Wind Energy Association wrote:

This article makes the common mistake of confusing capacity factor and capacity value. As the National Renewable Energy Laboratory study cited by the article explains, capacity factor is a measure of the amount of energy produced by a wind plant, while capacity value measures the amount of capacity a plant contributes towards meeting peak electric demand. 30-40% is the typical capacity factor of a wind plant, while 10-20% is the typical capacity value.

Wind plants are being built to provide large amounts of low-cost electricity to reduce the use of expensive fossil fuels and the pollution that results from their use. Folks in Texas can tell you that wind energy has already saved them billions of dollars by reducing the use of expensive natural gas and coal, while also reducing carbon dioxide emissions by millions of tons. Since reducing fossil fuel use and emissions are both issues of energy and not capacity, from that perspective the only metric that matters is the capacity factor of a wind plant. While a capacity factor of 35% may sound low to some, that is actually significantly higher than the capacity factors of other types of power plants. Natural gas plants typically have capacity factors of around 10%, hydroelectric plants are often around 25-30%. Even coal plants typically only have capacity factors that are in the 60-70% range.

For those who would like to delve a little deeper into the difference between energy and capacity, I would suggest this article:
http://www.awea.org/pubs/factsheets/Baseload_Factsheet.pdf


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excess_3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 03:00 AM
Response to Original message
8. it is worse that mearly 8.7%
I live in North Texas.
during the hot months, there is no wind.
there is no wind, as I post this.
That is just the way it is.
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