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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 06:48 PM
Original message
Another day, another discussion about renewables vs nookyular in GD
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Vogon_Glory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 07:14 PM
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1. Renewables vs Nuclear Is a False Choice
Those of us who want to keep this planet as a congenial place for a civilized, advanced egalitarian society believe that renewables versus nuclear is a false choice. The real choice is between renewables AND nuclear versus filthy, pollution-belching coal and petroleum power plants, aircraft engines, and ground transport motors.

It's better to have renewable AND nuclear power plants working in tandem to reduce man-made carbon and carbon-dioxide output than renewable energy as a token player in a carbon-fuel economy.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Not really, the opportunity costs of nuclear are significant and getting worse.
That means solution that pursues investment in renewables and nuclear is going to accomplish LESS than a strategy focused on deploying current technology renewable energy sources.

a
http://www.rsc.org/publishing/journals/EE/article.asp?doi=b809990c

Energy Environ. Sci., 2009, 2, 148 - 173, DOI: 10.1039/b809990c
Review of solutions to global warming, air pollution, and energy security

Mark Z. Jacobson

This paper reviews and ranks major proposed energy-related solutions to global warming, air pollution mortality, and energy security while considering other impacts of the proposed solutions, such as on water supply, land use, wildlife, resource availability, thermal pollution, water chemical pollution, nuclear proliferation, and undernutrition.

Nine electric power sources and two liquid fuel options are considered. The electricity sources include solar-photovoltaics (PV), concentrated solar power (CSP), wind, geothermal, hydroelectric, wave, tidal, nuclear, and coal with carbon capture and storage (CCS) technology. The liquid fuel options include corn-ethanol (E85) and cellulosic-E85. To place the electric and liquid fuel sources on an equal footing, we examine their comparative abilities to address the problems mentioned by powering new-technology vehicles, including battery-electric vehicles (BEVs), hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (HFCVs), and flex-fuel vehicles run on E85.

Twelve combinations of energy source-vehicle type are considered. Upon ranking and weighting each combination with respect to each of 11 impact categories, four clear divisions of ranking, or tiers, emerge.

Tier 1 (highest-ranked) includes wind-BEVs and wind-HFCVs.
Tier 2 includes CSP-BEVs, geothermal-BEVs, PV-BEVs, tidal-BEVs, and wave-BEVs.
Tier 3 includes hydro-BEVs, nuclear-BEVs, and CCS-BEVs.
Tier 4 includes corn- and cellulosic-E85.

Wind-BEVs ranked first in seven out of 11 categories, including the two most important, mortality and climate damage reduction. Although HFCVs are much less efficient than BEVs, wind-HFCVs are still very clean and were ranked second among all combinations.

Tier 2 options provide significant benefits and are recommended.

Tier 3 options are less desirable. However, hydroelectricity, which was ranked ahead of coal-CCS and nuclear with respect to climate and health, is an excellent load balancer, thus recommended.

The Tier 4 combinations (cellulosic- and corn-E85) were ranked lowest overall and with respect to climate, air pollution, land use, wildlife damage, and chemical waste. Cellulosic-E85 ranked lower than corn-E85 overall, primarily due to its potentially larger land footprint based on new data and its higher upstream air pollution emissions than corn-E85.

Whereas cellulosic-E85 may cause the greatest average human mortality, nuclear-BEVs cause the greatest upper-limit mortality risk due to the expansion of plutonium separation and uranium enrichment in nuclear energy facilities worldwide. Wind-BEVs and CSP-BEVs cause the least mortality.

The footprint area of wind-BEVs is 2–6 orders of magnitude less than that of any other option. Because of their low footprint and pollution, wind-BEVs cause the least wildlife loss.

The largest consumer of water is corn-E85. The smallest are wind-, tidal-, and wave-BEVs.

The US could theoretically replace all 2007 onroad vehicles with BEVs powered by 73000–144000 5 MW wind turbines, less than the 300000 airplanes the US produced during World War II, reducing US CO2 by 32.5–32.7% and nearly eliminating 15000/yr vehicle-related air pollution deaths in 2020.

In sum, use of wind, CSP, geothermal, tidal, PV, wave, and hydro to provide electricity for BEVs and HFCVs and, by extension, electricity for the residential, industrial, and commercial sectors, will result in the most benefit among the options considered. The combination of these technologies should be advanced as a solution to global warming, air pollution, and energy security. Coal-CCS and nuclear offer less benefit thus represent an opportunity cost loss, and the biofuel options provide no certain benefit and the greatest negative impacts.


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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-19-09 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Good answer. nt
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Vogon_Glory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-20-09 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. As You Said--The Other Opportunity Costs Include
As you said, other opportunity costs include the high costs of producing biofuels--that wipe out wildlife habitat, gut forests and jungles, and drive up food prices for the poor and wretched. I got an eyefull of a lot of Borneo jungle turned into palm tree plantations this summer.

In addition, the carbon economy aren't likely to disappear just because someone has windmills or solar. We have all seen the high costs of carbon fuel consumption--the lands gutted by strip mining, streams and rivers clogged with spoil, air pollution from fossil fuel plants.

I believe that to claim that an industrial civilization can be run solely on wind, solar, and other so-called 'soft' renewables is presumptuous, to say the least.

I don't like fission nuclear that much, I think that it's a stop-gap until someone finally figures out how to produce cheap, reliable fusion power. But in tandem with renewables, fission nuclear is the best bet for a cleaner mid-term energy future.
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Terry in Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-20-09 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Industrial civilization (sic)
Oxymorons aside, the big problem in these discussions is the assumption that maintaining industrial-civilization-as-we-know-it is a given. With that as the premise, yes, it's almost certainly true that wind and solar are not sufficient to maintain business as usual.

I would even go on to add that ANY combination of renewables, nuclear, biofuels, tidal mills and space mirrors will still not provide sufficient net energy to keep it going at the same level we've gotten used to with fossil fuels. Not even close.

Fusion? I don't think so. There's always such a note of desperation in that story, isn't there? I certainly wouldn't advise buying any fusion stocks. The awful truth is that the free ride is almost over for us and it's just time to grow up.

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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-20-09 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Wisdom
Yes, indeed.

Wisdom is the ability to realize that when you've dug a hole too deep to climb out of, switching to a more efficient shovel won't help.

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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-20-09 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. .
:thumbsup:
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