Washington Post: Solar Energy Firms Leaving Their Waste in China.

This article comes from a few months back, and I missed it, but my attention was directed to it at another website where I write and read, a technical website.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/08/AR2008030802595.html

For many years on this website, I've been listening to the "solar will save us" rhetoric, and for many decades before that, before this website existed, I've been hearing the same thing. It hasn't saved doodly squat.

Pushed by the http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/alternate/page/renew_energy_consump/table1.html">experimental result that solar energy has failed to produce meaningful energy, the delusional and unrealistic expectations for it, and the toxicity of wishful thinking itself, I began to look into the details of the solar scheme which has now become faith based.

For some time I have been contending that the reason the external cost of solar energy is overlooked precisely because the solar industry has failed, for all the hype to be meaningful. If solar energy ever produces even one of the 500 exajoules now used by humanity, its external cost will become obvious.

Have a nice day.

The Feb. 2006 Forbes article predicted a decline in the growth rate of solar from 67% in 2005 to a 10% rate in 2006.

Here is a short article that lets you check up on the Forbes article which reads like a "this is a very troubled industry" piece.

http://www.greenchipstocks.com/report/investing-in-next-generation-solar-power-technologies/367

This is absolutely ludicrous- do you really think that the number of installations, remotely, has anything to do with the increase in price of stocks in solar? Solar panels are undervalued, not stocks. Because China has been able to create an influx of cheap solar panels due to their low and subsidized production, shipping, and distribution costs does not account for a valid CAGR. Buying stock in Solar now, is like buying stock in real estate when it was booming. Little did people know that oversupply and loose lending, spending, and greed led to the collapse of not only the real-estate industry, but home owners and investors. A booming industry in a collapsed financial system, dominated by Chinese enterprise, should raise enough red flags you should be able to see them from the moon. For your info, in order to be valuable the price of solar has to come up, not down...

First, let me see if I understand it: you are saying that the "number of installations" (ie demand) has nothing to do with the price of the companies making solar panels. You further state that for solar stocks to be a viable investment, the price of solar must INCREASE.

If that is your stance, it is so, so wrong.

To divorce demand for a product from the valuation of the companies making that product is as fundamental a mistake as could be made. The only other mistake of similar import would be to ignore the ability of the manufacturing base to meet that demand.

There is no question that the necessity for managing our carbon emissions is going to result in a new regulatory environment that will have a huge impact on global demand for PV in the coming 10 years. Increases in the SIZE of the market means more capacity is needed. There are accompanying changes in technologies that mean older plants using more expensive technologies will face a squeeze as newer manufacturing processes undercut their prices. Perhaps these older plants can survive via restructuring, perhaps they can't, we'll have to wait and see.

One thing is crystal clear, however, as a sector to consider, solar stocks have a very good future because the market size is set to grow by leaps and bounds. Integral to the growth in market size will be a DECLINE in the prices of panels. Pointing to a shakeout induced by changing technologies and tighter capital as evidence that a rise in the price of solar panels is what is needed is myopic.

No. I'm saying that inflation is not a true indicator of growth and that it is bound to crash. Now if Suntech was the only Chinese manufacturer to introduce its product on the U.S market we could discuss natural growth to a certain degree. You have to take into consideration the governments involvement in demand from both China and the US. The numbers just don't add up. Average Americans cannot afford to put solar on their homes even with the lucrative incentives provided them. FYI- a growth in market size followed by a decline in price of product does not mean people should run to buy stock in that industry. The decrease in price is an indication that supply is over-riding demand, thus the market (as you call it) has been imploded with an oversupply of solar panels. If your argument is to make any sense, whatsoever, prices of panels HAVE to INCREASE. It's the law of supply and demand. Destiny doesn't pick sides.

I'm sorry but you aren't worth correcting.

Look... back your facts up before you condemn. A little bar graph showing the growth in installations does not, and I repeat, does not account for the tremendous oversupply from not only Chinese companies, but also American solar companies. It has a term: Artificial Inflation. False assumptions are made by people who don't know what they are talking about, yet push their point regardless of whether it makes sense or not. If this is what this forum is about, then I'm out. I'm for affordable renewable energy, as long as it makes sense and is fair to industry players and consumers. It's funny how people with anti-walmart stickers on their cars now all of a sudden promote the wal-martization of our industries. That people who fought against Nike's sweatshops are now promoting exploitation of labor in Chinese factories, and justifying the pollution these factories are emitting into our atmosphere. Do you think that promoting this malarkey is good? Again, if that is what this forum is about... I'm outtie...

Although you do bring up some interesting points, I have to agree with kristofer's arguments. Are you new to the business world? Because it certainly appears so. While some of your initial arguments seem to have some grounds, your responses are utter nonsense. I think you may want to research how the business world works...

I just love it how this puritan-judgement-circle-jerk is supposed to somehow be constructive towards making a reasonable argument for hyping up an industry which is imploded with govt. subsidies from both the Chinese and the US govt. You'd be better off investing in Enron before its collapse, the books are just as skewed. Oh, I almost forgot all about Cap and Trade.... wow... NEW? Hardly....

Read it and weep...
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-chinese-solar-stocks-may-burn-investors

Are you suggesting that some green companies may simply be exploiting the defenseless in pursuit of profit based on opportunities created by their buddies in government who push through green legislation that would profit few at the expense of many?

What is next; evidence showing ENRON-like companies promoting cap and trade legislation?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=enron+cap+and+trade&aq=0&oq=enron+cap&aqi=g10

But where was the outrage from the beginning? Why pick on solar producers alone?

solar enthusiasts here, particularly those who want to vandalize and destroy the world's largest source, by far, of climate change gas free energy while demonstrating total unfamiliarity with the contents of a science book.

Odd that if the problem is really a problem, how is it you have to keep going back again and again to the same example first published in Mar 2008?

Solar has been seeing a big ramp up, so don't you think that as hard as you try (how many time have you posted this?) you would have found at least 2 or 3 other instances of solar energy related environmental damage.

But when you're right, you're right. As we scale up we'll see that the developing economies will take more rigorous measures to stop the industrial fouling of their own nests and use the well known and safe practices for handling the environmental by-products of producing solar that are used in the US.

How long do you suppose it will be before they figure out how to handle nuclear wastes with such ease and permanence?




What should come next, 3 Mile Island or contamination from mining? So many, many sad choices...

... because we don't do these kinds of things:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

Chernobyl disaster

... the reactor had been constructed without any secure containment. This allowed the radioactive contaminants to freely escape into the atmosphere after the steam explosion burst the primary pressure vessel.

... the plant's management was largely composed of non-RBMK-qualified personnel: the director, V.P. Bryukhanov, had experience and training in a coal-fired power plant. His chief engineer, Nikolai Fomin, also came from a conventional power plant

Which is why I selected it as an appropriate response to the nonsense implied in the OP. To try and paint solar as a massive polluter from one example of someone disposing of wastes in a manner that is known to be improper is no different than using Chernobyl as an typical example of the drawbacks of nuclear power.

In the area of relative environmental risks associated with the two technologies, there is simply no comparison. The problems with nuclear are far, far more complex and difficult to deal with.

It's why they can't get insurance without Price-Anderson,
and it's true for the new generation 3 reactors as well.

But here's one scenario:

and here's a UCS report:

The disposal of wastes in the OP is an example of doing things the wrong way. Chernobyl is also an example of doing things the wrong way. Neither example should be used to lambaste an entire industry.

The production of Solar panels in China (where they still use DIRRTY coal) does not pollute more in their production than steam-powered factories here at home? You've got to be kidding me... you're probably a 9/11 Truther as well... it was our government who flew those planes into the WTC wasn't it? In environmental economics there is such a thing as a supply and demand chain where environmental costs vs. efficacy are considered. Production of Solar in China does not, in any way, account for the environmental costs incurred in oversupplying the world with solar. Every economic expert in this country has repeatedly stated that we stimulate the demand, not the supply. It seems you are arguing for forced solar? Where a property owner MUST use solar by law? It will be decades before such a preposterous proposition would at all even be possible (no matter how many Chinese solar panels penetrate our industry,) and by that time people will figure out even better ways to produce electricity than a pesky 175 watt solar panel multiplied by Kahdrillions panels.

Seldom have I seen so much ignorance packed in so few words.

You might want to check your chin for drool.

It's why they can't get insurance without Price-Anderson,
and it's true for the new generation 3 reactors as well.

if you disagree with this poster you'll likely be called ever name in the book and he does it with impunity, day in and day out. I've seen many good people get banned from this place who have done far less.

is to assert that the failed solar industry has zero external costs, or is just another case of an extremely rude hypocrite complaining about rudeness?

:rofl:

Other fundies complain about "evolutionists" and "liberals" having an anti-christian agenda.

There's zero difference.

Whenever someone dedicated to a massive build-out of nuclear reactors tries to misrepresent the relative external costs of solar to nuclear - THAT person has an "agenda".

THAT person's behavior should be seen as having a similarity to certain fundamentalists in that:
The person allows a predetermined preference to dictate what information they consider relevant - rejecting a perspective that is a true match with the known facts.

In other words they unfailingly lie to themselves and others.


Comparing the external costs of solar energy or wind energy to EITHER nuclear energy or fossil fuel energy is like comparing a hangnail to an amputation.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=206399&mesg_id=206408

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

As most of your 7 posts are in this thread (and most attacking a single
E/E poster), I am alerting on your behaviour.

I'm sorry. I didn't see a question in your post besides accusations of attack? Is it not the purpose of a blog to be constructive in that there a many views shared, not just one? Now that's a question.

... and formed part of the multi-reply attack that I mentioned ...

They might wish they hadn't, however.

"Inhalation causes severe irritation of upper respiratory tract resulting in coughing, choking, and a feeling of suffocation; continued inhalation may produce ulceration of the nose, throat, and larynx; if inhaled deeply, edema of the lungs may occur. Contact of liquid with eyes causes severe irritation and painful burns; may cause permanent visual impairment. Liquid may cause severe burns of skin. Repeated skin contact with dilute solutions or exposure to concentrated vapors may cause dermatitis. Ingestion causes severe internal injury with pain in the throat and stomach, intense thirst, difficulty in swallowing, nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea; in severe cases, collapse and unconsciousness may result. (USCG, 1999) "

http://cameochemicals.noaa.gov/chemical/4437

Even if it's dumped above ground in China, that's far less scary than nuclear radiation chemicals buried at Yucca Mountain right in my back yard, that last forever and could blow up!

Total liability is limited to the state-required business insurance(s) plus the value of the independently-constituted holding company undertaking liability for selling the parent company's products (i.e., the indemnity shell game).

No federally mandated aggregate industry-wide insurance pool, no federal oversight by the GAO, no congressional involvement, no bad sci-fi movies, no concerts and re-issued, remastered box sets with special collectors' bonus Blu-Ray DVDs ... the Public purse is safe!

--d!

As of late June, a new Chinese startup company by the name of Centron Solar has opened their headquarters right here in Eugene, Oregon. It certainly doesn't look very Chinese at first look on their website: www.centronsolar.com, and Centron is registered as a Foreign Business Corporation with jurisdiction Delaware: http://egov.sos.state.or.us/br/pkg_web_name_srch_inq.show_detl?p_be_rsn=1404813&p_srce=BR_INQ&p_print=FALSE

Seems odd that a company who settled with an unpaid intern (who was used for free labor,) registers their company 2 days after they ask the intern to not show up any more.http://egov.sos.state.or.us/br/pkg_web_name_srch_inq.show_detl?p_be_rsn=1404813&p_srce=BR_INQ&p_print=FALSE

http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms/sites/web/business/18590037-41/story.csp

Here are some of the first News articles that burst out on the scene in Oregon revolving Centron:

http://www.centronsolar.com/index.php?action=aboutus.news_events

How does an unheard of foreign business corporation "start-up" launch off with that much influence in media, and government support?

Centron Solar import solar panels from lesser known solar panel manufacturers in China ( www.nesl.cn and www.jetion.com.cn ) Then, they have conspired to brand these solar panels with their logo and model numbers.

For instance, have a look at Centron Solar's product sheet http://centronsolar.com/index.php?action=products.prod_overview

Centron's models:

CS-S-175-DJ
CS-S-189-DJ

These two models are actually from Chanzhou NESL Solartech in China, and their rightful model numbers are:

Changzhou NESL Solartech DJ-175D
Changzhou NESL Solartech DJ-180D
http://nesl.cn/Product.asp?Action=View&ProductID=71&Catalog=0

Let's see what Centron President Ocean Yuan claims in the Oregonian:http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2009/07/chinese_startup_based_in_eugen.html

Funny how the journalist at the Oregonian wrote this article prior:http://www.oregonlive.com/special/index.ssf/2009/02/helping_china_go_green.html

Both these models are listed on the California Energy Commissions "Eligible for Subsidies," which also applies in Oregon and the Northwest in general: http://www.gosolarcalifornia.org/equipment/pvmodule.html, but Centron's model numbers are nowhere to be found on that list, yet they are selling them on the U.S market under their "consortium," which in reality is NESL and Jetion.

Centron's 220W model which is actually purchased from the Chinese solar manufacturer Jiangyin Jetion Science and Technology :

CS-P-220-JT

Jetion Model number:

JT220(30)P1655×992

*Notice that Centron Solar has kept the "DJ" from NESL and "JT" from Jetion.

For whatever reason, Centron Solar are able to sell their panels with their model numbers to both Nike in Beaverton, and the Oregon National Guard in Portland, and still they are eligible for subsidies? Or are they?

According to both EWEB (Eugene's utility company) and AEE Solar (Nations larges solar panel distributor;) Because Centron Solar's models are not listed on the "eligible for subsidies" list, they cannot sell their panels on our subsidized market. However, Centron Solar has managed to sneak their model numbers onto PV Powered (solar power inverter systems headquartered in Bend, OR) string sizing: http://pvpowered.com/usage_terms_string_sizer.php (Look for Centron Solar in drop down box.) There is no trace that Centron Solar is merely distributing modules which have already been approved on the "eligibility" list, not as Centron Solar. Remember, Centron is a "consortium of 30 manufacturers." -...Riiiight...

Centron Solar claims that they are a consortium representing 30 manufacturers in China who have come together to create Centron's product line. This is how Centron Solar launched their product at the Intersolar2009 trade show in SF early July.

Centron solar also claims they can sell their panels 10% cheaper than any competitor on the U.S market, including their Chinese counterparts such as the biggest solar company in China- Suntech. I spoke with a government relations manager for Solarworld USA who said they had done a feasibility report on the production cost of NESL's solar panels. It was impossible- unless the production cost was subsidized by the Chinese government, thus breaking the FTC's Imports Administrations anti-dumping laws.

http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=219400273 (Proud to announce the "walmartization" of the U.S solar industry administered and operated by Chinese enterprise.)

Both NESL Solartech and Jetion have offices in California, but because no distributor is brave enough to pick up their products- they have designed a way to bypass protectionism and antitrust, through a channel called Centron Solar. This is why they are announching extravagant promises of 350 jobs in Eugene by making the old Hynix building an assembly plant (For the chinese manufacturers NESL/Jetion,) and another 100 jobs in Vancouver, Washington by taking over the old Panasonic building there. Centron Solar claims to warrant their products with 10, 10 and 25 year warranties... this is not Centron Solar that warrants these products, it is the manufacturers in China themselves (look at their websites.) Vancouver, Washington: http://columbian.com/article/20090804/BIZ01/708049969/-1/BIZ

Apparently it is illegal for Centron Solar to carry the UL certification logo, as it is not Centron Solar who has been inspected by UL, it is (again) their manufacturers in China.

Pardon me for caring, but this is an absolute atrocity. Our government subsidies and tax payer moneys have become a feeding ground for predatory Foreign Business Corporations like Centron Solar. Centron Solar will send roughly 80-85% profit of their sales straight back into China.From my understanding the stimulus bills in form of renewable energy subsidies are meant to aid recovery of our deficit, stimulate growth in american renewable energy businesses, innovation and creativity. It has been brought to my attention that the people involved in Centron Solar are tied in with government officials who are aiming at profiting from this business. This is an absolute perversion of our constitution and judicial legislature and needs to be stopped immediately. It is imperative that Tobias Read of district 27, also a product line developer for Nike, should be questioned about his intentions with Centron Solar, and purchasing "ineligible for subsidy" solar panels from them? The legal firm representing Centron is Davis Wright Tremaine LLC in Portland, Oregon. Former Washington governor Gary Locke was a noted attorney for this law firm, now he is the U.S Chamber of Commerce Secretary! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis_Wright_Tremaine It is imperative that secret affiliation and financial interest in this company is exposed promptly. For those who think Solar, let alone Chinese Solar is just an unprofitable pipe-dream, think again. China's riches man is the founder and CEO of Suntech, a Chinese solar panel outfit which operates in the U.S: http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/10/billionaires08_Shi-Zhengrong_EP46.html

Also, please have a look at Centron's advisory board: http://centronsolar.com/index.php?action=aboutus.advisory_bd

Greg Evans- Since when did a startup company in the U.S need a political advisor? Let alone the president of the NAACP for Oregon/Washington. The NAACP seem to have an overwhelmingly interest in green development lately, in efforts to destruct our renewable energy sector in order to rebuild it under the realm of "Social Justice." Obama's green jobs advisor, Van Jones, has diligently pushed for this political vision and agenda since appointment as "green jobs Czar/Advisor." Greg Evans is also the Vice President Board member of Lane Transit District, and said this about Centron Solar in the newspapers: "This is very legit, Trust me!" http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms/sites/web/news/cityregion/16800609-46/story.csp

David S Thomson- 13 year veteran of the finance group Siebert Bradford Shank & Co. Lives in Seattle, Washington. He was appointed to lead their transportation finance efforts on the west-coast. Perhaps this is how Greg Evans, and David Thomson know eachother? http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=6858070

It seems odd that Centron Solar has had such immense political and media support before even earning $1 in sales revenue in both Oregon and Washington lately, and made it through media channels to USA today. Centron Solar, besides Bruce O'Neil and Tobias Read of Nike, are being marketed through Polaris, Inc. http://www.polaris-inc.com/index.php?action=about.NewsInfo&rowid=183.

This should provide you with enough facts about what is going on behind the scenes in the Oregon solar industry, and who is aiming to profit from it. However, it is important to consider those who will be hurt as the result of Centron Solar as well (although apparently, our green energy leaders claim we need to de-industrialize and "re-build" our renewable energy sector, so that kids in the LA, NY, TX, OH etc. ghettos can get jobs first.) By allowing Centron Solar to monopolize with their Wal-mart agenda, it will deflate the entire renewable energy sector in this country, and dumping of Chinese products will cause the prices of solar to go down. The same effect Wal-Mart on our businesses here at home will happen with our Solar businesses here at home. We invented solar technology, we should therefore be able to innovate them- according to Bill Keith who was coined the "renewable energy patriot" by Senator Lugar of Indiana, and Phil Angeledes- former Treasurer of California and Chairman of the Apollo Alliance.

because you didn't get hired full time?

If this is a sample of your work, I'm on the side of their personnel dept.


The first hurdle with your post was convincing myself that it was worth wading through. It is long on effort but you begin with too much; perhaps you could lay out in a few short sentences a summary of just what you think the problem is. Without knowing that, the rest of the post is going to be pretty daunting for most people.

And I have to tell you that after reading it I just don't see much of an issue. I followed the first 7 links and the only thing I found *out of the ordinary* was that someone who AGREED to work as an UNPAID INTERN for 18 days SUED for wages when they were not hired full time - apparently in the belief that it is profitable for a company to meet their low level labor needs by cycling through the massive rolls of the unemployed in 3 week cycles.

It seems to not have penetrated that the reason companies (of all stripes) use the intern method for evaluating potential new hires isn't the cost savings in labor, but the cost savings in being able to identify unsuitable candidates that otherwise make it through the screening process. The lawsuit itself and the strange perception behind it is a good indicator of why that person might have been viewed as an unsuitable full time employee.

Other than that the only thing I learned is that this is a consortium of chinese solar panel manufacturers and thaat they intend to build SIX factories (each probably costing 1/2-1 billion dollars) HERE and hire Americans to build solar panels that will be installed by Americans on American homes and businesses.

What I don't see is where they have "conspired to brand" anything improperly. All other talk of that nature looks equally suspect.

The one area of legitimate concern I noted was the claim that Centron engaged in dumping; a violation of WTO agreements. Although the support for that claim is weak, it is legitimate for the affected industries to scrutinize the situation carefully. However even in this single oasis of reason in an otherwise totally chaotic presentation, you have wandered off the reservation of reality into tinfoil hat territory.

If there is dumping then US manufacturers will be able to make their complaint to the WTO and receive a fair hearing where the evidence will be fairly examined. If the allegation is true, they will be charged a tariff to offset any unfair advantage that might be uncovered. That in itself has pretty well put an end to the practice of dumping since it is seldom able to be done profitably.

What the allegation isn't is evidence of "predatory" practices that violate the idea of the stimulus. The arrangement this consortium is modeled after seems to be one worked out with Japanese car manufacturers in the 80s, only weighted more in favor of the US. That arrangement was considered a very fair balance between the rights of foreign companies to do business here, and protections for our domestic workforce. If the Japanese carmakers had gone as far as this company had, everyone would have been ecstatic.

First let me say that after reading your response, I recognized that you seem to be a fairly intelligent person. Pardon the "daunting" read, but perhaps there is more to it than you may think without further explanation. A company who hires an intern, not to mentioned an unpaid one, is usually a company which has co-op'ed with an educational institution for the student to gain industry experience and college credit, along with a letter of recommendation. I believe what you are referring to in your argument for using interns to provide free labor, is a "probationary" period in which an employer will hire an employee to keep him on (usually over an agreed period of time) the job. If the employee works out, he/she becomes a "full fledged" employee and is usually subject to a pay increase or a promotion of some sort. This was not the case with Centron Solar. Read this article, it will expel any pre-conceived ideas you may have regarding unpaid internships (even in a non-profit):
http://blog.marketplace.nwsource.com/careercenter/hiring_interns_for_free_labor_is_a_no-no.html

The tasks which the interns performed at Centron Solar were: Constructing databases of 20 thousand installers, as well as a state-by-state incentive database nationwide in spreadsheet format (data-entry,) market research, calling inverter companies to have solar panels included in their string sizing charts, sales, and project design for prospective clients- one being Nike. The project design involved doing cost analysis for the inverters, and racking systems while attempting to co-brand Centron's company name with these companies. The reality is, Centron Solar sought it fit to take advantage of students in a college town to prevent start-up costs otherwise incurred through hiring someone to do the job. The company settled with the intern and paid them in full. The intern even states in the article that he claimed minimum wage as this was not an effort to profit from the mishap, but to demonstrate the necessity for employers to abide, in the least, by our minimum wage laws. This is setting a good example, as there is no such thing as free labor in this country, hence abolition of slavery and introduction to labor laws. Only one of the interns was not enrolled in college, and the intern who did file would go back to continue his academia. Seems odd for a fellow democrat to be so negatively inclined in defense of a college student intern who was exploited by a foreign corporation for free labor... maybe you need to be on the conservative underground instead?

Lofty and extravagant promises of employment, not only through hiring interns in pretense of providing an internship, but also in announcing the creation of 350 jobs in Eugene, and yet another 100 jobs in Vancouver, Washington. The Hynix building in Eugene was "too" clean, while the Panasonic building in Vancouver was "too outdated." What you have here is essentially a company president "shopping around" for assembly plants while promising hundreds of jobs like he is shopping for a pair of tennis shoes. Based on what sales-revenue? Projected revenue should not account for announcing hundreds of jobs, then taking his word back like the CEO and founder of Suntech who admittedly said he was selling his panels on the US market below the production, shipping, and distribution costs. Not once, but twice in one interview. Only when EU solar panel makers were in outrage of these statements did he have his cronies call the NY Times to take his words back like he misunderstood. The guy received his degree from an Australian University, as did Ocean Yuan at University of Oregon. There's just no excuse to make such statements, then take them back because of a culture or language barrier.

You said: "Other than that the only thing I learned is that this is a consortium of chinese solar panel manufacturers and thaat they intend to build SIX factories (each probably costing 1/2-1 billion dollars) HERE and hire Americans to build solar panels that will be installed by Americans on American homes and businesses."

This sound fantastic, doesn't it? What you may, or may not, be taking into account in this conclusion is that all Centron Solar does is distribute solar panels from lesser known solar panel manufacturers in China such as NESL Solartec and Jetion. As you may know, these manufacturers have model numbers on their solar panels, which, in fact are already on the California Energy Commission SB1 (Senate Bill 1) list as eligible for subsidies. Notably the DJ-175D and the DJ-180D from NESL-http://www.gosolarcalifornia.org/equipment/pvmodule.html

Ok, so now you have it established. Both these models are on the SB1 list under their manufacturer Changzhou NESL Solartech. These two models are the exact same models as Centron Solar are distributing at the moment, but they have changed their model numbers to CS-S-175-DJ and CS-S-180-DJ. There are documents which prove that Centron Solar are in fact representing these models, that they have changed their model numbers, and that they have intended to keep their manufacturer undisclosed (for obvious reasons.) Centron then claims to be a "consortium" of 30 manufacturers who have come together to create their product. Again, although this might be a future prospect, it is not true as of yet. In essence, they are claiming to be their "own" brand. They are not their "own" brand, and if they were they would have to be inspected by UL in order to receive the necessary certification to even sell their products on the US market to begin with. A company may private label a manufacturers solar panels as long as UL has accepted this in the form a multiple listee letter, but they cannot change the model numbers all-together, claim to be a different product, and carry the UL logo. I mean, how much more convincing does it take to have any suspicion that this company is not following the rules. If every Tom, Dick, and Harry could do this- there would be hundreds, if not thousands, of American entrepreneurs who would love to jump on this opportunity. Not only would that create wealth that stays in this country, but also a way for Americans to implement and develop these products further, thus become self-sustaining in the long run. What you have obviously neglected to realize is that Centron Solar is duplicating a product together with its cartel-like affiliates, found a loophole in our system, and intend on bypassing antitrust and protectionist (yes we have them) laws in order to materialize into a legit operation, which they obviously are not at this point in time no matter how much you would like them to be. Basically, Centron Solar launched their product at the InterSolar2009 trade show in SF during the month of July- what they didn't tell people there was that they were merely a distributing channel for NESL and Jetion. Yingli, another Chinese company along with many other Chinese companies, have been forthright in the presentation of their products- to those companies I respect dearly and I truly do wish them the best in their efforts to introduce an honest product, marketing, and sales plan into this country.

Tinfoil hat territory? Excuse me...?

As it is hard to prove that a company is dumping their products on our industries, and which take months worth of investigation for the anti-dumping department at the Imports Administration to prove, if any, that China is, in fact, dumping solar panels on the US market. Red flags, however, should be raised when a company like Centron Solar announce in media and press that they promise a 10% cheaper quoting regimen than any US competitors, including their Chinese counterparts Suntech. Hello, is anybody home?? Maybe you need to take off your tin-foil hat so your big head can pop out to its big headed size and start functioning the way it should be. Like I said previously, I believe in my last post, that I spoke with an analyst who had done a feasibility report on NESL's production and had concluded it was impossible to produce these panels at such a low cost, yes even in China, without going bankrupt in the process. Even if they were using slaves and child-labor they still couldn't do it. What indication does that lead you to believe? That the Chinese are so happy to aid in our "green revolution" that they are happy to just give us the solar panels for free?????? WOW... So where the hell is the money coming from? A) Chinese Govt. B) Investors C) Both?

It's a win/win either way when our subsidized government dollars are being funneled straight back into China for every dollar spent on a "eligible for subsidy" solar panel from China while giving all our American installers (who are already supplying the demand for solar anyways) jobs. Which rock are you living under? Catchword being: "We have to stimulate the demand, WE HAVE TO STIMULATE THE DEMAND!!" Again, it's not tires, chemicals, linens, or steel we're talking about here as our government officials are making it easier every single day for China to dominate and control our renewable energy industry. Deflation, deflation, deflation. Do you know why this is?

According to Joseph Fleshman at the California Energy Commission: "in the spirit of California Public Resources Code Section 25780, it seems to me, personally, that a reduction in the price of solar will help create a "self-sufficient solar industry in which solar energy systems are a viable mainstream option for both homes and businesses." Reminds me of Anthony Kiedis' words in "Californication." Califonia sets the standards in solar industry nation-wide (for the most part) since it is one of the biggest consumer markets for solar besides Arizona. Arizona is home to FirstSolar- they definitely would not allow this to happen in their state. Regardless, it seem apparent that California supports deflation in the solar industry, which in turn shows that they are bent on one idea. That idea is to drive down prices regardless of the environmental, educational and capital costs in doing so. In order to become a global leader in renewable energy, we also need white collar jobs in the green industry, not just blue collared ones. Ownership of our inventions and innovations should only be reasonable. I am yet unfamiliar why Chinese manufacturers have managed to get the patents for Solar production, unless it has run out, or has been sold to them. There is no doubt China's manufacturing capabilities revolve of duplication, copying, and providing our consumer with similar goods at a cheaper price. That's a no brain'er, even with a tin-foil hat on.

Ok, just to make it clear to you. This, to me, is not about "buy american," protectionism and isolationism. No, no, no. There is nothing new about solar, nor Chinese manufacture that we previously have not been accustomed to. What is new is our vulnerable economy, and aggressive Chinese enterprises who are engaging in unconventional trading, marketing, and sales practices in order to, again, dominate and monopolize our solar industry with their cheap, government subsidized production solar panels.

I hope this served to be a more "eye-catching" read for you, and that you were entertained to the very, very end like what a great professor in college would demand from their students. It doesn't matter, you will see in the months and years to come what will unfold.

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The company is NOT building a manufacturing plant in the U.S. In case you read wrong, they will be leasing buildings like Panasonic and Hynix did in Vancouver and Eugene. Assembly plants are their goal. This just means they don't have to assemble them in China to save on shipping costs. The shipping costs are probably, if not definitely, higher than what it costs to exploit their labor back in China for the same job, thus cheaper to use American labor. Win/win for China, Win/Lose for US.

First let me say that after reading your response, I recognized that you seem to be a fairly intelligent person. Pardon the "daunting" read, but perhaps there is more to it than you may think without further explanation. A company who hires an intern, not to mentioned an unpaid one, is usually a company which has co-op'ed with an educational institution for the student to gain industry experience and college credit, along with a letter of recommendation. I believe what you are referring to in your argument for using interns to provide free labor, is a "probationary" period in which an employer will hire an employee to keep him on (usually over an agreed period of time) the job. If the employee works out, he/she becomes a "full fledged" employee and is usually subject to a pay increase or a promotion of some sort. This was not the case with Centron Solar. Read this article, it will expel any pre-conceived ideas you may have regarding unpaid internships (even in a non-profit):
http://blog.marketplace.nwsource.com/careercenter/hiring_interns_for_free_labor_is_a_no-no.html

The tasks which the interns performed at Centron Solar were: Constructing databases of 20 thousand installers, as well as a state-by-state incentive database nationwide in spreadsheet format (data-entry,) market research, calling inverter companies to have solar panels included in their string sizing charts, sales, and project design for prospective clients- one being Nike. The project design involved doing cost analysis for the inverters, and racking systems while attempting to co-brand Centron's company name with these companies. The reality is, Centron Solar sought it fit to take advantage of students in a college town to prevent start-up costs otherwise incurred through hiring someone to do the job. The company settled with the intern and paid them in full. The intern even states in the article that he claimed minimum wage as this was not an effort to profit from the mishap, but to demonstrate the necessity for employers to abide, in the least, by our minimum wage laws. This is setting a good example, as there is no such thing as free labor in this country, hence abolition of slavery and introduction to labor laws. Only one of the interns was not enrolled in college, and the intern who did file would go back to continue his academia. Seems odd for a fellow democrat to be so negatively inclined in defense of a college student intern who was exploited by a foreign corporation for free labor... maybe you need to be on the conservative underground instead?

Lofty and extravagant promises of employment, not only through hiring interns in pretense of providing an internship, but also in announcing the creation of 350 jobs in Eugene, and yet another 100 jobs in Vancouver, Washington. The Hynix building in Eugene was "too" clean, while the Panasonic building in Vancouver was "too outdated." What you have here is essentially a company president "shopping around" for assembly plants while promising hundreds of jobs like he is shopping for a pair of tennis shoes. Based on what sales-revenue? Projected revenue should not account for announcing hundreds of jobs, then taking his word back like the CEO and founder of Suntech who admittedly said he was selling his panels on the US market below the production, shipping, and distribution costs. Not once, but twice in one interview. Only when EU solar panel makers were in outrage of these statements did he have his cronies call the NY Times to take his words back like he misunderstood. The guy received his degree from an Australian University, as did Ocean Yuan at University of Oregon. There's just no excuse to make such statements, then take them back because of a culture or language barrier.

You said: "Other than that the only thing I learned is that this is a consortium of chinese solar panel manufacturers and thaat they intend to build SIX factories (each probably costing 1/2-1 billion dollars) HERE and hire Americans to build solar panels that will be installed by Americans on American homes and businesses."

This sound fantastic, doesn't it? What you may, or may not, be taking into account in this conclusion is that all Centron Solar does is distribute solar panels from lesser known solar panel manufacturers in China such as NESL Solartec and Jetion. As you may know, these manufacturers have model numbers on their solar panels, which, in fact are already on the California Energy Commission SB1 (Senate Bill 1) list as eligible for subsidies. Notably the DJ-175D and the DJ-180D from NESL-http://www.gosolarcalifornia.org/equipment/pvmodule.html

Ok, so now you have it established. Both these models are on the SB1 list under their manufacturer Changzhou NESL Solartech. These two models are the exact same models as Centron Solar are distributing at the moment, but they have changed their model numbers to CS-S-175-DJ and CS-S-180-DJ. There are documents which prove that Centron Solar are in fact representing these models, that they have changed their model numbers, and that they have intended to keep their manufacturer undisclosed (for obvious reasons.) Centron then claims to be a "consortium" of 30 manufacturers who have come together to create their product. Again, although this might be a future prospect, it is not true as of yet. In essence, they are claiming to be their "own" brand. They are not their "own" brand, and if they were they would have to be inspected by UL in order to receive the necessary certification to even sell their products on the US market to begin with. A company may private label a manufacturers solar panels as long as UL has accepted this in the form a multiple listee letter, but they cannot change the model numbers all-together, claim to be a different product, and carry the UL logo. I mean, how much more convincing does it take to have any suspicion that this company is not following the rules. If every Tom, Dick, and Harry could do this- there would be hundreds, if not thousands, of American entrepreneurs who would love to jump on this opportunity. Not only would that create wealth that stays in this country, but also a way for Americans to implement and develop these products further, thus become self-sustaining in the long run. What you have obviously neglected to realize is that Centron Solar is duplicating a product together with its cartel-like affiliates, found a loophole in our system, and intend on bypassing antitrust and protectionist (yes we have them) laws in order to materialize into a legit operation, which they obviously are not at this point in time no matter how much you would like them to be. Basically, Centron Solar launched their product at the InterSolar2009 trade show in SF during the month of July- what they didn't tell people there was that they were merely a distributing channel for NESL and Jetion. Yingli, another Chinese company along with many other Chinese companies, have been forthright in the presentation of their products- to those companies I respect dearly and I truly do wish them the best in their efforts to introduce an honest product, marketing, and sales plan into this country.

Tinfoil hat territory? Excuse me...?

As it is hard to prove that a company is dumping their products on our industries, and which take months worth of investigation for the anti-dumping department at the Imports Administration to prove, if any, that China is, in fact, dumping solar panels on the US market. Red flags, however, should be raised when a company like Centron Solar announce in media and press that they promise a 10% cheaper quoting regimen than any US competitors, including their Chinese counterparts Suntech. Hello, is anybody home?? Maybe you need to take off your tin-foil hat so your big head can pop out to its big headed size and start functioning the way it should be. Like I said previously, I believe in my last post, that I spoke with an analyst who had done a feasibility report on NESL's production and had concluded it was impossible to produce these panels at such a low cost, yes even in China, without going bankrupt in the process. Even if they were using slaves and child-labor they still couldn't do it. What indication does that lead you to believe? That the Chinese are so happy to aid in our "green revolution" that they are happy to just give us the solar panels for free?????? WOW... So where the hell is the money coming from? A) Chinese Govt. B) Investors C) Both?

It's a win/win either way when our subsidized government dollars are being funneled straight back into China for every dollar spent on a "eligible for subsidy" solar panel from China while giving all our American installers (who are already supplying the demand for solar anyways) jobs. Which rock are you living under? Catchword being: "We have to stimulate the demand, WE HAVE TO STIMULATE THE DEMAND!!" Again, it's not tires, chemicals, linens, or steel we're talking about here as our government officials are making it easier every single day for China to dominate and control our renewable energy industry. Deflation, deflation, deflation. Do you know why this is?

According to Joseph Fleshman at the California Energy Commission: "in the spirit of California Public Resources Code Section 25780, it seems to me, personally, that a reduction in the price of solar will help create a "self-sufficient solar industry in which solar energy systems are a viable mainstream option for both homes and businesses." Reminds me of Anthony Kiedis' words in "Californication." Califonia sets the standards in solar industry nation-wide (for the most part) since it is one of the biggest consumer markets for solar besides Arizona. Arizona is home to FirstSolar- they definitely would not allow this to happen in their state. Regardless, it seem apparent that California supports deflation in the solar industry, which in turn shows that they are bent on one idea. That idea is to drive down prices regardless of the environmental, educational and capital costs in doing so. In order to become a global leader in renewable energy, we also need white collar jobs in the green industry, not just blue collared ones. Ownership of our inventions and innovations should only be reasonable. I am yet unfamiliar why Chinese manufacturers have managed to get the patents for Solar production, unless it has run out, or has been sold to them. There is no doubt China's manufacturing capabilities revolve of duplication, copying, and providing our consumer with similar goods at a cheaper price. That's a no brain'er, even with a tin-foil hat on.

Ok, just to make it clear to you. This, to me, is not about "buy american," protectionism and isolationism. No, no, no. There is nothing new about solar, nor Chinese manufacture that we previously have not been accustomed to. What is new is our vulnerable economy, and aggressive Chinese enterprises who are engaging in unconventional trading, marketing, and sales practices in order to, again, dominate and monopolize our solar industry with their cheap, government subsidized production solar panels.

I hope this served to be a more "eye-catching" read for you, and that you were entertained to the very, very end like what a great professor in college would demand from their students. It doesn't matter, you will see in the months and years to come what will unfold.

While some of the information you state here may be true, I have to question your motive in writing this post. Thousands of American companies do this exact same thing, it's called "branding" and it is the basis of forming a successful business. It seems odd that you are targeting this one company.

First of all, the article about the "unpaid intern" states that the individual AGREED to an unpaid internship. He only worked for 18 days, and it appears to be at his free will. I'm not sure why someone would agree to an unpaid internship and then sue for a mere 1000 something dollars for the short time of 18 days of work. The only reason the company probably settled was out of convenience- they probably did not want to spend the time and effort to dispute such a ridiculous claim. If someone wants a paid internship, then they should not sign up for an unpaid one- the whole thing seems bogus.

Secondly, it sounds like this company is doing nothing illegal in terms of branding under their own name. If the companies they are marketing have agreed to let Centron brand them in the US, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with this.

Thirdly, your notion that this company is violating anti-dumping laws is based on pure speculation. Costs of products are based on multiple factors including geography of manufacturing, distribution lines, and factors included in a company's business model. Also, how much overhead and investment a company has also determines the cost of their products. Let qualified people determine if this is a problem.

Fourthly, I understand your concern in sending stimulus money back to China. However, it appears this company is planning to open up shop here in the US and create job opportunities locally. Also, it is the choice of the consumer of what products they buy. Good luck on convincing the entire US to buy nothing that says "made in China" on it.

Fifthly, the term "made in US" is a very loose one. Most, if not all, technological products "made in the US" source at least some of their raw material from another country. If you take a closer look at where Centron's manufacturers source from, a fairly decent percentage of their raw material probably comes from other countries as well, including the US (in fact, many foreign solar manufacturers use lamination material and diode boxes sourced from the US). If you own a cell phone, then you are guilty of the exact argument you are stating. You may not like it, but the US is a country that relies heavily on importing goods from other countries.

Sixthly, you stated: "It has been brought to my attention that the people involved in Centron Solar are tied in with government officials who are aiming at profiting from this business. This is an absolute perversion of our constitution and judicial legislature and needs to be stopped immediately." How on earth would you have information concerning this matter? I would be interested to see your proof in this claim. Yes, the government can often act in corrupt ways, but I am not sure how you would know such information and state is as though it was a fact- sounds like another speculation to me.

Finally, I have to again question your motive in creating this post. It is curious to me why you would pinpoint one company when there are so many American companies doing this exact same thing. It seems you may have a personal agenda to destroy this company's reputation before they have even had a chance to put their voice out. If they are doing nothing illegal and plan to create jobs in the US, I do not see why someone would have such a mission to put forth such a one-sided argument.

This made me laugh. As a democrat who believes in workers rights, I find it amusing to read that someone of supposedly like mind writes a manifest of anti-union rubbish. The Bureau of Oregon Labor and Industries was established for the purpose of preventing this type of employment practices. There are specific guidelines which a company must consider before providing a legitimate internship. You would have to see the Craigslist ad. Look, you are most certainly welcome to your opinion, but before you know the facts you shouldn't jump to conclusions. I have all the facts in black and white, and I am convinced this company is working in the gray area.

The reason is obvious. Say NO to wal-mart!!!!!!

You make me want to read "Arguing with idiots."