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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 01:23 AM
Original message
America’s Wind Energy Potential Triples in New Estimate
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/02/better-wind-resource-maps/

America’s Wind Energy Potential Triples in New Estimate

By Alexis Madrigal
February 19, 2010 | 1:31 pm | Categories: Energy

The amount of wind power that theoretically could be generated in the United States tripled in the newest assessment of the nation’s wind resources.

Current wind technology deployed in nonenvironmentally protected areas could generate 37,000,000 gigawatt-hours of electricity per year, according to the http://www.windpoweringamerica.gov/filter_detail.asp?itemid=2542">new analysis conducted by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory and consulting firm AWS Truewind. The last comprehensive estimate came out in 1993, when Pacific Northwest National Laboratory pegged the wind energy potential of the United States at 10,777,000 gigawatt-hours.

Both numbers are greater than the 3,000,000 gigawatt-hours of electricity currently consumed by Americans each year. Wind turbines http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table1_1_a.html">generated just 52,000 gigawatt-hours in 2008, the last year for which annual statistics are available.

Though new and better data was used to create the assessment, the big jump in potential generation reflects technological change in wind machines more than fundamental new knowledge about our nation’s windscape.

...
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onestepforward Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 01:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. K&R
This is awesome news!
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 03:40 AM
Response to Original message
2. How come for the last 30 years it's involved "estimates" and "studies" but very little...
...energy?

Eventually, the wind industry, after trashing millions of hectares of land - if in fact it gets that far and it probably will remain denialist talk for another two or three decades - won't be able to build these big pieces of sky junk as fast as they fall apart.

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. So how many *new* US nucular power plants have been ordered in the last 30 years?
none

:rofl:
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Anti-nuclear hysteria has been very effective in propping up
a regulatory nightmare for utilities. Fortunately, that will be ending soon.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. That would be like the "regulatory nightmare" that hobbled the banks? Anther nuclear circle jerk.
That is exactly the kind of logic we continually see from the Republican favored industries - regulation is the problem, just get rid of the regulations and the problems will disappear.

They point to a safety record that has been a result of the regulatory environment to answer concerns about the possibility of another 3 Mile Island. Then they say we have to get rid of regulation when the issue is cost or time to build.

Another nuclear circle jerk.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Nope, economics ended US reactor starts - more were canceled than built
and utilities charged rate payers - not the companies that canceled those plants - for tens of billions of dollars in stranded costs.

That is why the new extraordinarily expensive nuclear plants need tax payer loans.

yup

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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Why do you think Obama is putting so much money
into new nuclear? You think he and Stephen Chu know a little more about it than you?
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Compared to renewables?
http://energy.gov/news/8588.htm
...

Specifically the President’s FY 2011 budget request for the Department of Energy:

  • Positions the United States to be the global leader in the new energy economy by developing new ways to produce and use clean and renewable energy.
  • Maintains effective nuclear deterrence while working to secure all vulnerable nuclear materials around the world within four years.
  • Engages in cross-disciplinary scientific approaches to our energy and national priorities – including innovative and transformative research at DOE’s National Laboratories.
  • Expands the use of clean, renewable energy sources such as solar, wind, and geothermal while supporting the Administration’s goal to develop a smart, strong, and secure electricity grid.
  • Promotes innovation in the renewable and nuclear energy sectors through the use of expanded loan guarantee authority.
  • Advances responsible environmental management by cleaning up hazardous, radioactive legacy waste from the Manhattan Project and the Cold War.
...
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. What's your point?
Not sure what your excerpt relates to, other than DOE public relations.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. It is (of course) about budget priorities
Edited on Sun Feb-21-10 03:53 PM by OKIsItJustMe
Renewables get more mention than nuclear. Nuclear development is encouraged through loan guarantees, but then again, so are renewables. "Promotes innovation in the renewable and nuclear energy sectors through the use of expanded loan guarantee authority."


The DoE seems to be taking a shot-gun approach. They are researching nuclear power, as well as renewable sources, and CCS. Personally, I think this is a responsible approach.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Obama is going to build a *handful* of nukes in red states to woo suppport for GHG emissions regs
and I know a lot about the subject

much more than you!

:D
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Got it
It's all part of a multi-billion dollar, sophisticated scheme to curry favor. :tinfoilhat: :rofl:

The first taker on his loan offering is Alabama, and the anti-GHG crowd is funded by Big Oil. Not a lot of oil and natgas coming out of that region. How does that work, Mr. Know-it-all?
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Ummm- they produce gas in AL and a bit of oil too
Edited on Sun Feb-21-10 03:04 PM by jpak
and the first nukes to receive DOE loans were in Georgia - NOT AL.

Mr. Knowitall

:rofl:
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. My bad, you are correct. It's in GA.
So it's all about placating the oil producers in a state which doesn't even rank in the top 31 oil producers in the nation?

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/ene_pet_pro-energy-oil-production

Still not adding up, KIA. Keep trying (your little guy is enjoying it though)

:rofl:
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. No it's partisan politics - red states get nukes and political pressure to reduce GHG emissions
It neutralizes the Obama-as-envro-moonbat GOP meme

yup!

:rofl:
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. $54B for PR seems just a bit wasteful
You are completely out to lunch. :silly:
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. It's really wasteful and I'm against it
yup

but that is the politics
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. You keep fighting, you're doing a great job.
:rofl:
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. you make me
:rofl:
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. "Nucular" hehe...that wouldn't be nearly as funny if it was intentional nt
Edited on Sun Feb-21-10 02:33 PM by wtmusic
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Love the picture
They're beautiful - unless of course, you actually live near them. Seems wind has an uglier footprint than nuclear, if you listen to residents around Vermont Yankee.

Texas Breeze: Landowners Call Wind Turbines Ugly; Court Says Too Bad

"Among all the other hurdles facing renewable energy, from economics to technology, will the real bogeyman be aesthetics?

For now, wind power’s triumphant march in the U.S. can count on another legal smackdown of “NIMBYism,” after a Texas appeals court yesterday dismissed a suit by landowners upset with a big wind farm built by FPL Energy. Landowners decried the turbines’ noise and their spoiled sunsets—which the court agreed was a pity—but the appeals court couldn’t find grounds to rule against the power company.

Since the early days of wind power, turbine noise and “visual pollution” have been pitfalls to its growth, from Europe to Hyannis Port. Plenty of people think the machines are loud and ugly. In West Texas, which by itself is the fifth-largest wind-power market in the world, the battle is sharpened because of the economic benefits wind power brings—to some."

http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalcapital/2008/08/22/texas-breeze-landowners-call-wind-turbines-ugly-court-says-too-bad/tab/article/

Pity.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. ROFLMAO
Associated Press/Stanford University Poll conducted by GfK Roper Public Affairs & Media. Nov. 17-29, 2009. N=1,005 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.1.

"In general, would you favor or oppose building more nuclear power plants at this time?"
Favor 49 Oppose 48 Unsure 3


***********************************************************************

CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll. Oct. 16-18, 2009. N=1,038 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

“To address the country’s energy needs, would you support or oppose action by the federal government to ?” (Half Sample)

"Build more nuclear power plants"
Support 52, Oppose 46, Unsure 2


"Develop more solar and wind power"
Support 91, Oppose 8, Unsure 1


"Increase oil and gas drilling"
Support 64, Oppose 33, Unsure 3

"Increase coal mining"
Support 52, Oppose 45, Unsure 3


"Develop electric car technology"
Support 82, Oppose 17, Unsure 2

"Require more energy conservation by businesses and industries"
Support 78, Oppose 20, Unsure 2

"Require more energy conservation by consumers like yourself"
Support 73, Oppose 25, Unsure 3

"Require car manufacturers to improve the fuel-efficiency of vehicles sold in this country"
Support 85, Oppose 14, Unsure 1

Asked of those who support building more nuclear power plants:
"Would you favor or oppose building a nuclear power plant within 50 miles of your home?"
Favor 66, Oppose 33

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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Wind Turbines and Home Values
Edited on Sun Feb-21-10 01:16 PM by OKIsItJustMe
http://newscenter.lbl.gov/press-releases/2009/12/02/wind-power-property-values/

Berkeley Lab Study Finds No Widespread Impact of Wind Power Projects on Surrounding Residential Property Values in the U.S.

December 02, 2009

Over 30,000 megawatts of wind energy capacity are installed across the United States and an increasing number of communities are considering new wind power facilities. Given these developments, there is an urgent need to empirically investigate typical community concerns about wind energy and thereby provide stakeholders involved in the wind project siting process a common base of knowledge. A major new report released today by the U.S. Department of Energy’s (DOE) Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory evaluates one of those concerns, and finds that proximity to wind energy facilities does not have a pervasive or widespread adverse effect on the property values of nearby homes.

The new report, funded by the DOE, is based on site visits, data collection, and analysis of almost 7,500 single-family home sales, making it the most comprehensive and data-rich analysis to date on the potential impact of U.S. wind projects on residential property values.

“Neither the view of wind energy facilities nor the distance of the home to those facilities was found to have any consistent, measurable, and significant effect on the selling prices of nearby homes,” says report author Ben Hoen, a consultant to Berkeley Lab. “No matter how we looked at the data, the same result kept coming back – no evidence of widespread impacts.”

The team of researchers for the project collected data on homes situated within 10 miles of 24 existing wind facilities in nine different U.S. states; the closest home was 800 feet from a wind facility. Each home in the sample was visited to collect important on-site information such as whether wind turbines were visible from the home. The home sales used in the study occurred between 1996 and 2007, spanning the period prior to the announcement of each wind energy facility to well after its construction and full-scale operation.

The conclusions of the study are drawn from eight different hedonic pricing models, as well as repeat sales and sales volume models. A hedonic model is a statistical analysis method used to estimate the impact of house characteristics on sales prices. None of the models uncovered conclusive statistical evidence of the existence of any widespread property value effects that might be present in communities surrounding wind energy facilities.

“It took three years to collect all of the data and analyze more than 50 different statistical model specifications,” says co-author and project manager Ryan Wiser of Berkeley Lab, “but without that amount of effort, we would not have been confident we were giving stakeholders the best information possible.”

“Though the analysis cannot dismiss the possibility that individual homes or small numbers of homes have been negatively impacted, it finds that if these impacts do exist, their frequency is too small to result in any widespread, statistically observable impact,” he added.

The analysis revealed that home sales prices are very sensitive to the overall quality of the scenic vista from a property, but that a view of a wind energy facility did not demonstrably impact sales prices. The Berkeley Lab researchers also did not find statistically observable differences in prices for homes located closer to wind facilities than those located further away, or for homes that sold after the announcement or construction of a wind energy facility when compared to those selling prior to announcement. Even for those homes located within a one-mile distance of a wind project, the researchers found no persuasive evidence of a property value impact.

“Although studies that have investigated residential sales prices near conventional power plants, high voltage transmission lines, and roads have found some property value impacts,” says co-author and San Diego State University Economics Department Chair Mark Thayer, “the same cannot be said for wind energy facilities, at least given our sample of transactions.“

Berkeley Lab is a DOE national laboratory located in Berkeley, California. It conducts unclassified scientific research for DOE’s Office of Science and is managed by the University of California. Visit our Website at www.lbl.gov/

Additional Information:...
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Flawed methodology
* Roughly 95% of the samples taken were more than a mile away from the nearest turbine. (summary, p. 18)
* Roughly 85% of the samples taken had no view whatsoever of the turbines. (p. 18)
* The data shows a 5% drop in property values due to nuisance stigma for the property owners who actually have to live near them (within 1 mile) - they are using a 10% significance level. (p. 25)

http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/ems/reports/lbnl-2829e-ppt.pdf

What am I missing? :shrug:
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Well, let's see...
> Roughly 95% of the samples taken were more than a mile away from the nearest turbine. (summary, p. 18)

Right. How typical is it for homes to be less than a mile away from a large wind turbine? (The turbines I've personally seen don't seem to be constructed in the middle of residential neighborhoods.)

While there is no nationwide rule, a typical setback requirement is 3 times the overall height of the turbine. This is actually closer than Vestas' safety guidelines. “Do not stay within a radius of 400 m (1,300 ft.) from the turbine unless it is necessary.”


> Roughly 85% of the samples taken had no view whatsoever of the turbines. (p. 18)

Right. One of the concerns regarding wind farms is "I don't want turbines ruining my view!" (It appears that although 82% of the homes were within 5 miles of a turbine, the majority of homes don't even see them.)


> The data shows a 5% drop in property values due to nuisance stigma for the property owners who actually have to live near them (within 1 mile) - they are using a 10% significance level. (p. 25)

Right.
...

Looking at these results as a whole, a somewhat monotonic order from low to high is found as homes are situated further away from wind facilities, but all of the coefficients are relatively small and none are statistically different from zero. This suggests that, for homes in the sample at least, there is a lack of statistical evidence that the distance from a home to the nearest wind turbine impacts sales prices, and this is true regardless of the distance band. ...


So, although it is not statistically significant, there does seem to be a decrease in value for homes within one mile of a turbine, but, as you've pointed out, that represents a minority of the homes.

Care to hazard a guess how living a similar distance from a nuclear plant affects property values? ;-)
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. As I've pointed out, the residents around Vermont Yankee are very happy
to have the plant in their community. It's those pesky outsiders who keep insisting they know what's better for them.

http://timesargus.com/article/20100113/NEWS02/1130342/0/OPINION01

Now come off it - we're evaluating property values for homes from which the turbines can't even be seen? Worthless.

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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Are the residents around Vermont Yankee happy?
"Vernon officials defend Vt. Yankee"

OK, so local government likes it. That's not surprising. It brings jobs and money into the local economy.


http://rutlandherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080529/NEWS02/805290349/1003/NEWS02
...

In Vermont, home to many people with a back-to-the-land viewpoint, surveys show that people want to move away from fuels like coal and oil that emit large amounts of carbon dioxide. They also support renewable energy.

But the same surveys show less consensus on nuclear power. At energy workshops last year, nearly two-thirds of participants said Vermont utilities should cease buying power from the nuclear plant — unless fossil fuels and out-of-state nuclear power were the alternatives, in which case more than half would continue with Vermont Yankee.

...
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Your survey includes people from around the state
Edited on Sun Feb-21-10 03:57 PM by wtmusic
Residents of the town of Vernon - not just officials, as you deceptively depict it - are unanimously in support of keeping the plant open.

Now back to wind power, the original subject of this thread.

You were going to explain to me what the value of calculating property values for property completely out of sight of the turbines is. Weren't you? :shrug:
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I believe you have a mistaken understanding of wind turbine siting
You suggest that the only valid data regard homes within 1 mile, and with a full view of the turbines.

The fact of the matter is that most homes in the area of wind farm are neither within 1 mile, nor do they have a full view of the turbines. Your implication is that they intentionally selected far-flung homes with no view.

Here's the selection method:
...

In general, for each study area, residential transaction data in as close proximity to the wind turbines as possible was sought, from both before and after wind facility construction. To balance the cost and quantity of data collection in each study area with the desire to cover as many study areas as possible, the research effort sought to collect data on 400 to 1,250 transactions in each study area.24 In some instances, this meant including all residential transactions within ten miles of the wind turbines. In others, only transactions within five miles were included. In some extreme instances, when the number of transactions inside of five miles far exceeded the 1,250 limit, all transactions in close proximity to the wind turbines (e.g., inside three miles) were included in combination with a random sample of transactions outside of that distance band (e.g., between three and five miles).25 The data selection processes for each Area are contained in Appendix A.

...


...

24 This range was chosen to ensure that a minimum of data were present in each study area to allow for a robust analysis, and yet not too much so as to make data collection (e.g., the visiting of each home) inordinately time and resource consuming in any individual study area.

25 An alternative method would have been to collect data on every sale that occurred. Although in most cases this would be preferred, in ours it would not have added one additional transaction within close proximity or with dramatic views of wind turbine, the focus of the study. Rather, it would have added an overwhelming majority of transactions of homes without views and at distances outside of three miles from the turbines, all of which would have come at considerably cost and, more importantly, would not likely have influenced the results significantly while perhaps necessitating a reduction in the total number of study areas that could be included in the sample.

...
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Ah ah ahhh, you're fudging
"Not within full view of the turbines" is not the same as "having no view of the turbines", is it?

I have a mistaken understanding of wind turbine siting, do I? Maybe the guy who's pissed because they spoil his view, or the woman who has to listen to them day and night - maybe they have a mistaken understanding too. What's to understand? Consensus seems to be when they're audible or visible, people don't like it. When they're not, people don't care. I could have told them that long before they wasted their time and money.

They seem to be whining that there weren't enough homes close to the turbines to conduct a "robust analysis". Of course not - no one wants to live there! For a truly "robust analysis", maybe they should expand the radius to 50 miles... :rofl:
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Fine.
Find a study that meets your unrealistic criteria, only analyzing homes that sit within 2 feet of turbines.

Until then...
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. An exaggeration strawman is so uncharacteristic of you, OK
Wrong side of the bed today? :shrug:
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. I simply got tired of your characterization of the study as invalid
They analyzed the closest residential sales they could, and maintain a meaningful data set.

You say you don't like the data because:
  • Not enough of the homes were within one mile of a turbine.
  • Not enough of the homes had a view of a turbine.


They could have only analyzed home sales within a 1 mile radius, but then, they wouldn't have had a proper control group to compare to.

I don't think your objection is to the methodology. Their methodology is sound. I think your objection is simply to the conclusion.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. The data set is not meaningful
if at the property under consideration one can't see or hear the windmills, is it? They might as well be considering property in Antarctica.

That's my objection, and it's a valid one.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. No it isn't a valid objection.
Otherwise, with what do you compare the ones that are visually or aurally impacted?

This is the dumbest argument you've ever used IMO. And that is saying a lot.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. If a close home is not able to see or hear the windmills, that's important data
Edited on Sun Feb-21-10 09:15 PM by OKIsItJustMe
Remember, they were analyzing how the closest homes were affected. If they cannot see or hear the turbines, then the answer is, "They're not affected very much."

http://www.nyserda.org/programs/pdfs/largewindturbines.pdf
...

Can I hear the turbines?

Noise issues were associated with some early wind projects, however, noise has been reduced through advances in system designs and the appropriate use of setbacks from residences. Typical noise levels from turbines, at the base of a tower, are 80-90 decibels (dB), or the same level of noise you would routinely hear inside a home or office. Noise levels drop to about 35 dB at one-quarter of a mile (1,300 feet) from the turbine. At this distance, the turbines are barely discernible above normal conversation and their noise is typically muted by the naturally occurring noises at a site. If turbines are sited 1,000 feet or more from residences, noise concerns are usually mitigated.

...


What you're apparently looking for is a study that includes only adversely affected homes, which would not be a meaningful dataset. (i.e. 100% of the adversely affected homes are... well... adversely affected.)
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-22-10 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. You can't be serious.
Let me try to make this easier for you to understand:

*Only* the homes which can see or hear the turbines must be included, because it's patently obvious that property values of homes outside that range won't be affected. Using your argument, we could call the entire Earth "close", and discover that average property values are not affected at all!

Typically you have to get the last word in, but is it really worth sacrificing your dignity? :eyes:
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-22-10 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. There are studies on transmission lines, too, and they don't generally include lines...
...that you can't see or may never see depending on your commute.

So while I will agree with you I think it is important to consider that property values don't necessarily include everything you can see while you are at home.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-22-10 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. You're correct, that's addressed in the report as "area stigma"
Edited on Mon Feb-22-10 01:40 AM by wtmusic
and it's going to be somewhat arbitrary on how the three associated stigmata - area, scenic and nuisance - are weighted, as all three are subjective evaluations.

Any way you slice it, it's more than a little disingenuous to present the conclusion, "No Widespread Impact of Wind Power Projects on Surrounding Residential Property Values in the U.S" when 19 out of 20 of the turbines are over 1 mile away - and judging by the slice of pie on the chart, about 16% are more than 5 miles away!

Also in the conclusion: "Homes in the sample that are within a mile of the nearest wind facility, where various nuisance effects have been posited, have not been broadly and measurably affected by the presence of those wind facilities."

The data shows that property in those areas is worth roughly 5% less, and the only reason it's not "statistically significant" is that the authors have chosen a statistical significance of 10%, about twice that which is normally employed. So if my home is worth $250,000, after the turbines go in it will be worth $12,500 less, and one might extrapolate that the value would diminish exponentially the closer they get. To a homeowner, that's quite broad and measurable.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-22-10 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. Don't disagree. They've obviously weighted wrong.
As I said, transmission line property value reports do not use this weaker methodology. They consider property that is within line of sight of the lines.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
34. What are you missing? Objectivity and rationality.
You're cherry picking data to form the false conclusion that the study is flawed or biased. Your criticisms are hogwash and Ok's response explains the data in its proper context.

It is the demonstrated dishonesty of the nuclear supporters here that is the strongest argument against nuclear power. If you can't argue honestly, then it follows that you have no honest arguments that are persuasive. You therefore resort to the same type of nonsense that permeates the climate denier crowd.

CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll. Oct. 16-18, 2009. N=1,038 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

“To address the country’s energy needs, would you support or oppose action by the federal government to ?” (Half Sample)

"Build more nuclear power plants"
Support 52, Oppose 46, Unsure 2

"Increase coal mining"
Support 52, Oppose 45, Unsure 3

"Increase oil and gas drilling"
Support 64, Oppose 33, Unsure 3

"Develop more solar and wind power"
Support 91, Oppose 8, Unsure 1


Interesting grouping isn't it. Nuclear power support aligns PERFECTLY with support for coal. The demographic that supports coal largely are climate change deniers. You use tactics of argumentation that mirror climate change deniers. Therefore...

What's sauce for the goose...




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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-22-10 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #14
40. Thanks for the link, more research needs to be done.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. That doesn't appear to include the offshore resource.
This is the map the assessment is based on. http://www.windpoweringamerica.gov/wind_maps.asp

Consider that one GE 3.6 turbine would produce approximately 14GWh/year almost anywhere offshore. The extension of our offshore boundary to 200 miles doubled the land area of the US.

The near shore potential available to be tapped with current technology (such s the GE 3.6MW) is huge. Add in the deep water technologies (10MW) under development and it is truly a vast resource that is very close to some of the heaviest load in the country.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-22-10 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #3
42. Cool, we'd only have to build 294 thousand of those, about a trillion bucks.
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