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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 11:28 AM
Original message
Are New Types of Reactors Needed for the U.S. Nuclear Renaissance?
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=are-new-types-of-reactors-needed-for-nuclear-renaissance
February 19, 2010 | 7 comments

Are New Types of Reactors Needed for the U.S. Nuclear Renaissance?

Ongoing problems with nuclear waste might resurrect plans for reactors that would leave less of it

By David Biello

On February 16, President Barack Obama announced loan guarantees totaling more than $8 billion for http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/remarks-president-energy-lanham-maryland">two new light-water reactors in Georgia, part of an initiative to restart the nuclear power industry in the U.S. Just three weeks earlier, Secretary of Energy Steven Chu had announced the http://www.energy.gov/news/8584.htm">formation of a Blue-Ribbon Commission on America's Nuclear Future to resolve what to do with the waste produced by those future reactors—as well as the 2,000 metric tons a year produced by the 104 reactors currently in operation in the U.S. After all, the Obama administration has halted plans to store spent nuclear fuel at Yucca Mountain in Nevada—a geologic repository that never opened.

Such struggles to find a permanent resting place for nuclear waste has prompted some to resurrect an idea that stretches back to the Manhattan Project: so-called http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf98.html">fast-neutron reactors that can consume nuclear waste through fission. Whether it is billionaire philanthropist Bill Gates touting a new design for a http://intellectualventureslab.com/?p=687">traveling-wave reactor or the South Korean government promoting spent fuel reprocessing and fast breeder reactors, observers and governments seem to think it is time to reconsider fast reactors—despite the fact that the designs have a mixed track record. Since the 1950s, roughly $100 billion has been spent on the research and development of such reactors around the world, yet there is currently only one producing electricity—the BN-600 reactor in Russia, operational since 1980.

The U.S. "is at an impasse over disposing of nuclear waste," noted physicist Frank von Hippel of Princeton University and co-chair of the http://www.fissilematerials.org/ipfm/pages_us_en/about/about/about.php">International Panel on Fissile Materials (IPFM), during a February 17 conference call with reporters that included several physicists, his co-authors on a new report on such fast-neutron reactors. "The interest in these reactors is that fast-neutron reactors are more efficient at fissioning long-lived isotopes…...fissioning long-lived isotopes will minimize the waste problem."

Going fast with sodium

The most prevalent type of http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-do-fast-breeder-react">fast-neutron reactor, so-called because the neutrons used to initiate the fission chain reaction are traveling faster than neutrons moderated by water in conventional nuclear reactors, operate at temperatures as high as 550 degrees Celsius and use liquid sodium instead of water as a coolant. Sodium burns explosively when exposed to either air or water, necessitating elaborate safety controls. Nevertheless, as far back as 1951 at Idaho National Laboratory, such a sodium-cooled fast-neutron reactor produced electricity.

...
(IMHO, well worth the read.)
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Zoeisright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. No.
There IS no safe nuclear power. Less waste is still waste. And we don't have anyplace to store it. I'm sick to death of spending money on this poisonous crap.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Did you read the article
It does a very good job (IMHO) of pointing out many drawbacks of the various designs I've seen promoted on this board. (Overall, I'd say it's pretty well balanced.)

Obviously, you may feel differently.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. NEW IPFM RESEARCH REPORT: Unsuccessful "Fast Breeder" is no solution for long-term reactor waste dis
Edited on Sat Feb-20-10 01:49 PM by OKIsItJustMe
http://www.fissilematerials.org/ipfm/pages_us_en/about/about/about.php
NEWS ALERT (17 February 2010, 1:30 p.m. EST)

NEW IPFM REPORT: UNSUCCESSFUL "FAST BREEDER" IS NO SOLUTION FOR LONG-TERM REACTOR WASTE DISPOSAL ISSUES

After Over $50 Billion Spent by US, Japan, Russia, UK, India and France, No Commercial Model Found; High Cost, Unreliability, Major Safety Problems and Proliferation Risks All Seen as Major Barriers to Use. Hopes that the “fast breeder” -- a plutonium‑fueled nuclear reactor designed to produce more fuel than it consumed -- might serve as a major part of the long-term nuclear waste disposal solution are not merited by the dismal track record to date of such sodium-cooled reactors in France, India, Japan, the Soviet Union/Russia, the United Kingdom and the United States, according to a major new study from the International Panel on Fissile Materials (IPFM).

Read the http://www.ipfmlibrary.org/ipfmnews100217.pdf">press release and http://www.ipfmlibrary.org/rr08.pdf">download the full report.

An audio stream of the press conference is available http://www.hastingsgroupmedia.com/021710IPFMfastbreederreactorevent.mp3">here.


http://www.ipfmlibrary.org/ipfmnews100217.pdf
...

Titled “Fast Breeder Reactor Programs: History and Status,” the IPFM report concludes: “The problems (with fast breeder reactors) ... make it hard to dispute Admiral Hyman Rickover’s summation in 1956, based on his experience with a sodium-cooled reactor developed to power an early U.S. nuclear submarine, that such reactors are ‘expensive to build, complex to operate, susceptible to prolonged shutdown as a result of even minor malfunctions, and difficult and time-consuming to repair.’”

Plagued by high costs, often multi-year downtime for repairs (including a 15-year reactor restart delay in Japan), multiple safety problems (among them often catastrophic sodium fires triggered simply by contact with oxygen), and unresolved proliferation risks, “fast breeder” reactors already have been the focus of more than $50 billion in development spending, including more than $10 billion each by the U.S., Japan and Russia. As the IPFM report notes: “Yet none of these efforts has produced a reactor that is anywhere near economically competitive with light-water reactors ... After six decades and the expenditure of the equivalent of tens of billions of dollars, the promise of breeder reactors remains largely unfulfilled and efforts to commercialize them have been steadily cut back in most countries.”

The new IPFM report is a timely and important addition to the understanding about reactor technology. Today, with increased attention being paid both to so-called “Generation IV” reactors, some of which are based on the fast reactor technology, and a new Obama Administration panel focusing on reprocessing and other waste issues, interest in some quarters has shifted back to fast reactors as a possible means by which to bypass concerns about the long-term storage of nuclear waste.

Frank von Hippel, Ph.D., co-chair of the International Panel on Fissile Materials, and professor of Public and International Affairs, Woodrow Wilson School, Princeton University, said: “The breeder reactor dream is not dead but it has receded far into the future. In the 1970s, breeder advocates were predicting that the world would have thousands of breeder reactors operating by now. Today, they are predicting commercialization by approximately 2050. In the meantime, the world has to deal with the legacy of the dream; approximately 250 tons of separated weapon-usable plutonium and ongoing — although, in most cases struggling — reprocessing programs in France, India, Japan, Russia and the United Kingdom.”

Mycle Schneider, Paris, international consultant on energy and nuclear policy, said: “France built with Superphénix, the only commercial-size plutonium fueled breeder reactor in nuclear history. After an endless series of very costly technical, legal and safety problems it was shut down in 1998 with one of the worst operating records in nuclear history.”

Thomas B. Cochran, nuclear physicist and senior scientist in the Nuclear Program at the Natural Resources Defense Council, said: “Fast reactor development programs failed in the: 1) United States; 2) France; 3) United Kingdom; 4) Germany; 5) Japan; 6) Italy; 7) Soviet Union/Russia 8) U.S. Navy and 9) the Soviet Navy. The program in India is showing no signs of success and the program in China is only at a very early stage of development. Despite the fact that fast breeder development began in 1944, now some 65 year later, of the 438 operational nuclear power reactors worldwide, only one of these, the BN-600 in Russia, is a commercial-size fast reactor and it hardly qualifies as a successful breeder. The Soviet Union/Russia never closed the fuel cycle and has yet to fuel BN-600 with plutonium.”

...
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Do you really think this motley crew is qualified to do such an assessment?
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. (I believe that is an example of irony.)
Perhaps I'm wrong.
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yes
IF there is going to be a "nuclear renaissance" then it will have to be with new designs. Not necessarily entirely new (thorium, etc), but must certainly not just rebuilding decades-old designs.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. According to the article
Thorium-generated electricity is 80% more expensive than uranium-generated electricity.
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. That isn't a permanent number
New technologies almost always cost quite a bit more until the process has been refined (no pun intended). I've seen other estimates that say that it could be half as much as the current technology.

But that wasn't my point. I meant that there isn't much point in reproducing 50-year old designs.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Nobody is looking to build 50 year old designs (GenII)
Edited on Sat Feb-20-10 02:52 PM by Statistical
all new plants being considerate are GenIII+. They have much higher burnup (able to fission longer before fuel needs to be replaced), have higher efficiencies, are simpler to build and operate, and have much higher core failure rates.

GenIII+ designs currently being built or considered are:

PWRs (Pressurized Water Reactors)
---------------------------------------
AP1000 (Advanced Passive 10000) from Westinghouse
APWR (Advanced Pressurized Water Reactor) from Mitsubishi Heavy Industries
EPR (European Pressurized Reactor) from Areva

BWRs (Boiling Water Reactors)
---------------------------------------
ABWR (Advanced Boiling Water Reactor) from GE-Hitachi
ESBWR (Economic Simplified Boiling Water Reactor) from GE

These designs are evolutionary rather than revolutionary.

They take existing designs and simplify them, improve efficiencies, increase safety, and extend lifespan from 40 years to 60 years.

GenIV reactors are more revolutionary but it will be 20-30 years before they are ready for commercial operation. If GenIII+ reactors fail to be profitable nuclear energy likely ends with them and there won't be future designs.


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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Areva is considering going back to its old Gen II designs.
Their new Gen III design is more expensive than they thought it would be.

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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Then Areva just needs to get out of the biz. The EPR has been a total failure.
Less designs might actually be a good thing = more units sales for each remaining designs, better economies of scale, etc.

Sad thing is I think 3 utilities in the US are considering buying the EPR despite the fact that it is expensive, has had all kinds of construction problems/delays and gives work to European companies instead of American ones. When they could be purchasing either AP1000 or ESBWR.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. "better economies of scale"
I was going to just post a smiley, but I couldn't decide whether to click on :crazy:, :silly: or :eyes:.

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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. A reactor isn't a single large component.
For example the same valve may be used 100 times in a reactor. By simplifying the designs economies of scale can be created (like AP1000 and other GenIII+ reactors have done) instead of having Valve A used 100 times, Valve B used another 200 times and Valve C used 100 times a new Valve say "Valve D" designed to meet the requirement of all 3 previous valves) is designed and now a single part is used 500 times in the reactor.

Now if 100 AP 1000 are built that in thousands of identical valves being manufactured. The standardized design certification will ensure the exact same valve is used where in the past with each reactor being a custom design based loosely on a design document there never were economies of scale.

Another method to achieve economies of scale has been cross design co-operation. By using this new "valve D" in multiple designs (AP1000, ESBWR, EPR, etc) the number of Valve D being produce increases by a magnitude.

Finally less designs allows more units per design amortizing R&D costs across multiple units. Also a benefit to the public is less designs and more identical units increases the likelihood that issues are found early, caught, and fixes applied to multiple units.

It is possible to achieve economies of scale even or relatively small units.

Take the F-22 for example. Only 170 are built and the cost of the entire program works out to $220 billion a piece, however another 170 could be built for only $80 billion flyaway cost each. There was susbstantial upfront and ontime costs (testings, approval, R&D, refinements) that are ammortized over a smaller number of units raising costs.

While economies of scale may be better on 1000 reactors than 100 reactors that doesn't mean they don't exist as number of units increase.

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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. It is an absurd proposition on its face to claim economy of scale savings on reactors.
It is nothing but verbal eye candy.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. It is absurd to think they don't exist.
There are economies of scale when building 3 aircraft carriers instead of 2 for example. This was a major reason why 3 more were built instead of 2.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I wouldn't point to the Military Industrial Complex as an example if I were you...
But hey, that's just me.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. I think this is a case when the French example is valid to point to
Edited on Sat Feb-20-10 05:08 PM by OKIsItJustMe
If (like the French) we built several nuclear plants to a single set of specifications, rather than as a bunch of "one-offs" the approval process would go faster. Construction costs should be reduced, particularly if (like the French) the same group was building all of them. Training and maintenance costs would be reduced, etc.

Plants would also be safer, and less expensive to insure.

So, certainly, some "economies of scale" should be recognized, but (like a Tesla) there are certain costs which are unavoidable.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Costs in France escalated, they didn't decrease.
Edited on Sat Feb-20-10 05:07 PM by kristopher
At least, that's the best guess based on inferential data, since the actual numbers are a tightly held government secret for some reason.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. I expect they were lower than they would have been if
their reactors had been built as a series of one-off's by multiple companies (like ours.)
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. I understand your point.
It is a reasonable presumption that as much standardization as is posible will help control costs. However that needs to be seen in the light of the hyperbolic claims that are more common. It just doesn't have the same ring when a nuclear proponent says, "the cost over-runs wont be as big if we standardize what we can" versus, "Yeah the first few will be expensive but with economies of scale we'll soon reduce that price by 50%".

The reason I say "as much as possible" is that there are going to be lessons learned if this approach is followed and we start deploying the reactors. Safety and operational issues WILL reveal themselves and changes WILL be mandated.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. At least you concede that it remains to be seen.
That's a start coming from you.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. you still have a reading comprehension problem.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #20
42. If it a fact that costs are lower when several nuclear reactors are built at once.
You know the paper that shows this but you won't post it, and I can't find it. It's a nuclear bashing paper you used to cite a lot, until I pointed out its conclusion.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. That's another fabrication on your part Josh.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. There is no historical precedent for that belief.
Nuclear power plants are not a technology that can take advantage of economies of scale.

Put it into perspective this way - if I told you that Tesla Motors was going to cut their production price by 50% because they were going to build 1000 Roadsters, you'd rightly laugh at me. Yet you believe that building 1000 units of a much, much more complex product is going to enable that type of savings?

If the historical record is any predictor (and at this point it is pretty consistent over a broad range of political environments) the costs of the program will escalate substantially as time goes on.

And then there is the energy penalty...

Just so you don't think it's biased from me, would you try to find a couple of references about net energy production from this technology?
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. You mean rerferences that "explain" ultra high cost of enrichment.
However fail to mention the cost is based on a Gaseous Diffusion a method of enrichment during 60&70s that is now obsolete.

Modern gas centrifuge enrichment uses only about 20% of the energy of gaseous diffusion.

There is a lot of R&D into alternative methods of enrichment to drop the energy cost of enrichment by another 50%.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. No, I mean references that cover the net energy production of the process M.Baggins favors.
Once through uranium is about 15 units out for 1 in, about the same as coal.

What is yield from the otherwise most practical technology for reprocessing?

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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. The advantage of reprocessing isn't cost or net energy.
It is reduced waste. Most likely reprocessing will never be cheaper than raw uranium. Fuel costs are incredibly cheap (about 0.5 cents per kwh). Reprocessing makes existing uranium stockpiles last longer, it also reduces tonage of High Level Waste. Those are benefits which can't be quantified in either net-energy or $$$$.

If we ever had a single deep geological repository and utilities were charged per ton of high level waste (as opposed to currently utilities are charged a flat 0.1 cents per kwh) that would help change the economics to favor reprocessing.

Personally I am in no rush to pursue reprocessing. As long as the spent fuel is cataloged and stored it could be reprocessed in a decade or in a hundred years.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Not so. It is reducing waste volume while producing energy.
You are making another absurd claim.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Reprocessing has no net gain in energy. Please show me a study that indicates it does.
Reprocessed fuel is very expensive relatively speaking both in energy and cost.

It is far cheaper (both in $$$ and in energy) to simply dig up more raw uranium. However it is more sustainable to reprocess fuel. It extends the lifespan of uranium stocks and reduces the amount of High Level Waste.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Circle jerk.
When the issue is waste you say "we can reprocess to reduce waste and develop sustainable nuclear power."
When the issue is either the financial or energy economic performance of nuclear you say "we will use once through because it is cheap and the supply of uranium is huge."

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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. Yeah it is a called a trade-off.
There is no "best" answer.

Reprocessing
pros: reduces waste, extends uranium supply
cons: uses more energy, complex, costs more than "fresh" fuel

Once through
pros: simplest, lowest fuel costs, and we have considerable reserves
cons: results in more high level waste, uranium supply can't sustain a substantially larger reactor fleet.

We haven't reprocessed fuel exactly because it is more expensive both in terms of energy and fuel price than mining more uranium. If we keep number of reactors stable at around 100 (or they decline) we will have no issues with uranium fuel in next 100 years. There likely is no reason to start reprocessing given the upfront costs for building reprocessing centers.

However if we decided to double or triple nuclear output we will need to address that issue. Reprocessing will easily double if not triple our uranium stocks which is something that is more important with 200-300 reactors than it is with only 100.

Still if we expand nuclear that much moving to Thorium quicker likely makes more sense. Still need to reprocess but thorium being a breeder reactor it produces more fissile material than it consumes. If you are going to go down the reprocessing path then Thorium + reprocess is better than uranium + reprocess.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. And the energy and economic considerations go out the window.
YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.

Nuclear power is nothing but a political boondoggle.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. Reprocessing won't make sense even if we quadruple nuclear globally
MIT's 2003 report looked at roughly tripling or quadrupling nuclear globally:
To explore these issues, our study postulates a global growth scenario that by
mid-century would see 1000 to 1500 reactors of 1000 megawatt-electric
(MWe) capacity each deployed worldwide, compared to a capacity equivalent
to 366 such reactors now in service.


Their "most important recommendation":
Thus our most important recommendation is:

For the next decades, government and industry in the U.S. and elsewhere
should give priority to the deployment of the once-through fuel cycle,
rather than the development of more expensive closed fuel cycle
technology involving reprocessing and new advanced thermal or fast
reactor technologies.

http://web.mit.edu/nuclearpower/index.html


In 2007, the National Academy of Science came to a similar conclusion:
While all 17 members of the committee concluded that the GNEP R&D program, as currently planned, should not be pursued, 15 of the members said that the less-aggressive reprocessing research program that preceded the current one should be. However, if DOE returns to the earlier program, called the Advance Fuel Cycle Initiative (AFCI), it should not commit to a major demonstration or deployment of reprocessing unless there is a clear economic, national security, or environmental reason to do so.

http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/2007/10/national_academy_of_science_re.php


You said there is no "best answer". The truth is, there is no "good answer", and reprocessing is definitely a "wrong answer" (at least for several decades).

Whatever we decide to do with the waste, it's going to take at least 10-20 years to create the facilities, then it will take at least 10-20 years just to transport the waste already generated. So we're going to have to store the waste on-site for decades anyway, there's just no way around that. We're going to have use on-site dry cask storage for the next several decades (some decommissioned plants might have the waste moved to "temporary storage" sites). There's no way around this.

Decades from now. we'll either:
a) Have a functioning geologic depository.
b) Have 4th or 5th generation reactors which can use the waste.
c) Declare the reactor sites "National Sacrifice Zones", build Chernobyl-style sarcophagi over them to keep the waste from being scattered by tornadoes and hurricanes, monitor the groundwater as the casks deteriorate and leak, have armed guards 24/7 to keep teenagers and psychopaths out, put granite warning signs to warn future civilizations, ...

In the meantime, it's irresponsible to keep generating more waste. The 4th and 5th generation reactors might never become overcome their technological problems (for example it's now recognized that the PBMR can melt down and requires a containment dome), and even if they do, they might not be economically viable, especially considering that the technologies for renewables will have continued to advance for several decades.

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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #41
46. Thanks for the links. I have never been a big fan of reprocessing..
i can see the interest in countries like Japan and France where their uranium usage compared to stockpiles are higher than the global average.

Reprocessing is expensive (both in terms of cost and energy) however countries would rather reprocess their fuel to produce more fuel than have to worry about foreign supplies.

Given the US substantial uranium reserves and the relatively primitive level of technology related to reprocessing (high energy use, lots of caustic chemicals, and limit on amount of recoverable uranium) I see it as a dead end.

Money would be better spent on isotope seperation because most transmutations require at least some separation of isotopes. Even if you are anti-nuclear the ability to transmute something with a 200,000 halflife to one which has a half life of 26 days is a huge advantage. Not magic bullet (not all fission products can be easily transmuted) and we need a cheap source of large number of neutrons (fusion?) but could substantially reduce the amount of long term waste (200K+ year half life).
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. When did that become my "favored process" ?
Edited on Sat Feb-20-10 04:49 PM by FBaggins
I don't remember even bringing up reprocessing.

I don't consider uranium to be rare enough to need recycling (to increase fuel supply).
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. What the hell do you think a thorium reactor is?
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Thorium reactor is a breeder reactor. That changes things.
Reprocessing conventional nuclear fuel is expensive both in terms of energy used and in terms of cost of finished product.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Thorium is no better.
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. And where did I say that I favored Thorium reactors?
I explicitly excluded them from my response.

I think they have some advantages, but that deals largely with waste reduction... they are by no means my "favorite"
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Post 3 and 6
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. So you don't understand what the word "not" means eh?
Edited on Sat Feb-20-10 08:52 PM by FBaggins
Or "wasn't" for that matter.
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. Neither statement is true.
Edited on Sat Feb-20-10 04:47 PM by FBaggins
There's plenty of historical precedent (reactors on ships as well as some in other countries) and yes, they are a technology that can easily take advantage of economies of scale.

much more complex product is going to enable that type of savings

Far more complex technologies benefit from economies of scale. Complexity isn't the issue, it's the lack of standardization (one of the same reasons that Teslas are expensive) and the large size. Either can be improved... both would be preferable.

if I told you that Tesla Motors

Fighter jets and nuclear submarines are infinitely more complex than a Tesla... yet benefit substantially from economies of scale.

Just so you don't think it's biased from me, would you try to find a couple of references about net energy production from this technology?

Not sure whether this is changing the subject or if you're asking about net energy of nuclear in general (which would be dramatically higher than any fossil fuel). Care to be more specific?


Economied of scale is also far from the only reason that things get cheaper over time. We simply get better at making them. Wind power isn't cheaper just because of scale... it's because of refinements and competition of sourcing. If you look at that list of "assumptions" (that you thought was a firm "timeline") you'll see that one thing they COUNT on is a robust sourcing ability for things that are too expensive now because they are essentially custom (also a nuclear hurdle).
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
38. A better question
A better question would be "Is a nuclear renaissance desirable?"

No, it isn't.

Alternative technologies are already available to move our species away from fossil fuels. Spending public money on any facet of nuclear except permanent disposition of the existing waste is diverting funds better spent elsewhere.
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Kalun D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 02:23 AM
Response to Original message
44. Hell NO
because there's not going to be any US "nuclear renaissance"

Number 1 in the top 10 most polluted places on earth

Chernobyl, Ukraine

thanks but no thanks to more nuclear power plants


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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. I agree with you.
> because there's not going to be any US "nuclear renaissance"

Americans cannot be trusted with nuclear power.

:shrug:

Off you go and burn your coal & gas (hopefully building some wind
turbines & solar farms in the meantime), bomb the shit out of a
few more innocent countries, dig yourselves deeper in debt buying
crap from China, convince yourselves that you are still somehow
apart from the rest of the world whilst dying slowly (not to mention
expensively) from the toxins in your increasingly deadly (though
still no doubt profitable) environment.

Save the money that you'd waste on design, development & planning
of nuclear power stations as they'd still be stymied by the inevitable
protests (not to mention rendered even more expensive in the process).

Save the money (and jobs) that you'd waste on creating a suitable
repository for the partially used fuel elements (once-through is
*so* much more profitable) as the public perception of nuclear energy
has been guided so well by "The Simpsons" that it is probably viewed
as more of a documentary than "An Inconvenient Truth".

Save all the effort & in-fighting caused by the different elements
of your single party government arguing over the issue - there are
plenty of other things for you to waste time & political process on,
most of which are equally sham distractions from the important events
that are kept nice & tidily under the radar of your tame mass media.

None of this is truly necessary.

With all of the money that you've saved, you will be able to spend more
on unnecessary weapons.

With all of the jobs that you've avoided creating, you'll be able to
get more cannon-fodder for your overseas projects.

With all of the additional pollution that you've dumped in your air,
food & water, you'll generate an even dumber population that will be
even more easily led by your "chosen" puppetmasters.

Enjoy!
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Kalun D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Relevance
I had nothing to do with creating the American system, I just live here.

"Americans cannot be trusted with nuclear power."

you are absolutely correct, the predatory capitalists get a hold of a nuclear power plant, start cutting corners to make more money, and sooner or later you have another 3 mile island or Chernobyl

The waste lasts far longer than most governments or countries, all you're doing is pawning the problem off on future generations. It's the most persistent long lasting pollution ever created by man.

"your tame mass media."

the TV is in the closet in the guest room, it hasn't been on since 9-11. I get news from alternate sources. I protested against the 2nd gulf war, drive a high mpg Civic and I'm saving to buy a Prius, or Miev when Mitsubishi brings it to the states. Living in the NW where 80% of power is from hydro-electric. Live in a green house, full vegan, recycle, plant and maintain trees, donate 5% of pitiful wages exclusively to environmental charities.

so I'm not sure what your problem is...

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