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UK getting more nuclear energy. Liberal Democrats drop opposistion to nuclear energy!

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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 09:02 AM
Original message
UK getting more nuclear energy. Liberal Democrats drop opposistion to nuclear energy!
Edited on Thu May-13-10 09:42 AM by Statistical
The Liberal Democrats agreed to drop their opposition to a new generation of nuclear power stations in one of many "unpleasant" compromises needed to secure a power-sharing deal with the Conservatives, the new energy minister said on Thursday.

Chris Huhne, a Liberal Democrat who has described nuclear power as a "failed technology," said it was worth sacrificing one of his party's key election pledges to bolster Britain's first coalition since 1945. The Conservatives and Liberal Democrats agreed to share power on Wednesday after the ruling Labour Party failed to win a fourth term in office at an inconclusive election last week.

Under their agreement, the Liberal Democrats agreed not to vote against Conservative proposals to build new nuclear power stations to replace the current aging plants. "This is a coalition agreement that has always involved compromise on both sides," Huhne told BBC radio. "There are a whole series of compromises which have been struck in this agreement which I think are obviously unpleasant for each of the parties."

The pay-off for such compromises is a chance to "reshape British politics" and protect the economic recovery, he added. The Labour Party, forced out of power after 13 years, supports the new nuclear power stations and its votes would probably guarantee a conservative victory in any parliamentary vote. The Liberal Democrats, who say nuclear power is too expensive, would abstain.


http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE64C1YU20100513

Wait I thought nuclear energy was dead?
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. The title isn't really accurate
Edited on Thu May-13-10 09:12 AM by FBaggins
They haven't agreed to drop their opposition to nuclear, they just agreed that the issue won't break up the coalition (& it can't be used as a confidence measure) and they won't use their new position to block it.

When the issue comed up for a vote in parliament, they will speak in load opposition to it, but will abstain from voting.

It's really about the best of all possible worlds from a green energy standpoint. It means substantial growth in wind/hydro/nuclear and potentially rapid declines in coal etc.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. It wasn't my intent to be unclear.
Edited on Thu May-13-10 10:02 AM by Statistical
While liberals will "oppose" it when it comes down to the vote they know they don't have the votes to block it so any opposition will be a token opposition.

Where liberals have real powers is as part of the coalition. The coalition will set the legislative agenda. The liberals could have pushed to make sure nuclear power wasn't part of that legislative agenda. While there may be votes for nuclear energy you can't vote on what doesn't come up. :)

These backroom deals will decide what is allowed and what will be off limits as part of the coalition.
The liberals are the minority so they won't get everything but conservatives need them so they will get something. So the real decision for the liberal was what are they willing to get and what are they willing to lose.

Both sides will need to "win some, lose some".
The liberals have decided to "lose" on nuclear power in order to "win" somewhere else.

Why is that important? Well because the liberals could have decided to make line in sand on nuclear power. The conservatives need them and that could have halted new nuclear power from moving forward until after next election. The good news is the liberals decided other issues were more important and essentially "traded away" anti-nukes to get other topics they feel important included in the coalition agenda.

I thought this was likely but the news confirms it and that is a good thing. When it comes down to the vote you are right the liberals will "oppose it" but by that point it really has already been decided.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
28. So if the LibDems bolt and form a coalition with Labour - then they don't get any new nukes?
:rofl:
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Well given labor is pro-nuclear also that seems unlikely.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-14-10 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. Don't worry, those union guys are RWers.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
3. You Celebrate Another Right Wing Victory on DU?
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I celebrate more safe, clean, and reliable energy.
If Republican dominated Congress pushed for manned mission to Mars I would celebrate that too.

Not everything is partisan. The conservatives won't have the votes to push nuclear energy on their own. The good news is the UK labor party ALSO supports nuclear energy.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
29. Me too - solar, wind, biomass, geothermal, wave, tidal et al.
but not stupid nucular or the fucking Tories or the fucking GOP or the assholes at teh NEI

nope!
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. The Lib Dems are RW now?
my goodness.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
26. Nuclear power is not a right wing issue. nt
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Yes, it is.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Guess you told me. nt
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-14-10 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #26
36. Yes, it is. nt
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
5. only to replace existing plants, and no subsidies.
It's unfortunate that Liberal Democrats have to make these compromises with Conservatives.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-05-13/britain-says-new-nuclear-plants-can-proceed-without-subsidies.html

“If they come up with a plan which genuinely involves no public subsidy, and that’s the agreement of the coalition, then they’ll put it through the new national planning process, and the proposal will go forward,” Huhne said in an interview on British Broadcasting Corp. radio’s “Today” program. “We’re committed in the Liberal Democrats to not vote against it.”


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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. No subsidies?
the economics of new nuclear mean that equity investors are unlikely to earn an adequate return unless there is direct government support to reduce the risks of the project.

In our base case (which uses current industry forecasts for construction costs - €3,100/KW, and assumes on-time completion) new nuclear plants operating as merchant capacity in a pool system, do not offer an attractive risk-reward to investors. We estimate that equity investors would earn a return competitive to that offered by other technologies with at best a 37% probability. We also analyse the economics new nuclear on perhaps more realistic assumptions – higher construction costs and time over runs – and needless to say we find that equity investors are even less likely to earn an adequate return in a merchant market.

We also examine the items that we believe the market might have been too complacent in factoring in:
1. Load factors – a slowdown in demand and a consistent pace of renewable build out could reduce LFs in the European nuclear fleet (existing and planned) to as low as 56% in the next 20 years. This could also affect the economics and value of existing plants.
2. Purchase of sites – we estimate that should utilities have to pay for the sites of new plants, IRRs could fall by 100-300bps; and
3. System reinforcement – build out of new nuclear plants could require substantial investment in the system that could create, at minimum, planning delays.

In the face of all these, we argue that the risk-reward for equity investors only becomes attractive if government share part of the risk via either guarantees prices or volume purchases or support on financing/decommissioning.

This Citigroup 2008 Analysis of new nuclear power also has a "realistic" scenario where they DON'T just accept the rosy claims of the nuclear industry. It is, of course, an even more pessimistic assessment.

They also warn of the effects of efficiency and renewable energy goals:
Consensus view is that electricity demand in the wide European region will grow by 1.5% p.a. over the next couple of decades. This is a view shared by UCTE in its latest System Adequacy Report. Although it is virtually impossible to produce irrefutable electricity demand forecast we are tempted to argue that the risks are on the downside since:
1. During the boom years of 2003-07, when GDP growth was strong and infrastructure investment high on the back of very liquid debt markets and due to the convergence of the new EU joiners, electricity consumption grew by 2.1% p.a.

2. Energy efficiency is likely to become a bigger driver as technology advances and as awareness rises. It is important to highlight that such measures also fall under the Climate Change agenda of governments, which has been one of the driving forces behind the renaissance of new nuclear.

As a result, we would expect electricity demand growth to be in the 0-1% range for at least the next 5 years, before returning to more normal pace of 1.5-2%. We therefore see scope for an extra 346TWh of electricity that needs to be covered by 2020 vs. 2008 levels.

Should EU countries go half way towards meeting their renewables target of 20% by 2020 that would be an extra ca. 440TWh. Even if EU went only half way, which by all means is a very conservative estimate, that would still be ca. 220TWh of additional generation. Under its conservative ‘scenario A’ forecast, UCTE expects 28GW of net new fossil fuel capacity to be constructed by 2020.

On an average load factor of 45% for those plants that’s an extra 110TWh. Therefore under very conservative assumptions on renewables, we can reliably expect an extra 330TWh of electricity to be generated by 2020, leaving a shortfall of 16TWh to be made up by either energy efficiency or new nuclear.

There are currently 10GW of nuclear capacity under construction/development, including the UK proposed plants that should be on operation by 2020. If we assume that energy efficiency will not contribute, that would imply a load factor for the plants of 18%. Looking at the entire available nuclear fleet that would imply a load factor of just 76%. We do believe though that steps towards energy efficiency will also be taken, thus the impact on load factors could be larger.

Under a scenario of the renewables target being fully delivered then the load factor for nuclear would fall to 56%.

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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. An interesting prediction from 2007
"Clare Spottiswoode, deputy chairman of British Energy, has said that no new nuclear generation capacity can be expected in the UK or much of the the rest of Europe before 2020."
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x77100

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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. My how times change, eh?
Just three and a half short years.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
His prediction still looks accurate, if you ignore the hype.

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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. You're kidding, right?
Edited on Thu May-13-10 02:01 PM by FBaggins
The prediction wasn't that nuclear power wouldn't increase as a proportion of Europe's power generation... it was that no new plants would be built.

You really think that no new plants will be built in Europe before 2020?
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Don't expect them to be online before then.
Edited on Thu May-13-10 02:16 PM by bananas
It might happen, but it's "highly unlikely".
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Really? Or is France no longer part of Europe?
I thought they had one due to be completed two years from now and another 3-4 years after that.

And are not more already under construction in the Ukraine, Finland, and Slovakia. They'll all take more than a decade more to build?
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Don't forget Turkey planning to have reactor by 2016.
Edited on Thu May-13-10 02:34 PM by Statistical
Of course construction hasn't started yet.

If you wanted to limit it to only reactors already under construction to improve confidence level it would be:
Russia (2010)
Russia (2011)
Finland (2012)
France (2012)
Slovakia (2013)
Bulgaria (2014)
Russia (2014)
France (2015)
Romania (2016)
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. I thought Turkey changed their mind late last year?
n/t
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Nope signed a deal today.
Don't worry I don't blame you. :) Hard to keep up with all these nuclear deals happening almost daily.

http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/newsbriefs/setimes/newsbriefs/2010/05/13/nb-07

4 reactors, 4800 MW capacity, $20 billion.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. LOL - so now the "nuclear rennaissance" is a couple of Russian reactors in Turkey
which I'm sure will be built on time on budget...
:rofl:
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. No that would be a strawman you made up.
Edited on Thu May-13-10 09:58 PM by Statistical
NO NO NUKES IN EUROPE....
(small print) Excluding France, Finland, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, Turkey, and United Kingdom.

Other than that "no" new nukes.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. That was the title of the Nuclear Engineering International Magazine article
Guess you didn't bother to follow the link.
The title is in boldface large font size, go look for yourself.
http://www.neimagazine.com/story.asp?sectionCode=132&storyCode=2040766

News

No new nukes for UK
07 December 2006

Clare Spottiswoode, deputy chairman of British Energy, has said that no new nuclear generation capacity can be expected in the UK or much of the the rest of Europe before 2020.

The comments came at a Platts energy security forum in New York where Spottiswoode was quoted as saying that, apart from France and Finland, it is "highly unlikely" that any plants will be built in the rest of Europe before 2020.

Spottiswoode added that the reason was that the rest of Europe would not undertake any new nuclear development until the UK does and it will take until at least 2020 for the UK government to put in place a proper planning regime and regulations for new construction.

With the UK’s current fleet of nuclear stations due to be all but decommissioned by then, a significant capacity crunch is looming.


Nuclear Engineering International ©2010
Published by Global Trade Media, a trading division of Progressive Media Group Ltd.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Here's a similar statement in Aug 2007 by Poyry Energy Consulting
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x109378

Reuters: No new nuclear plants likely before 2020 in Britain

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20070820/tuk-uk-britain-nuclear-report-fa6b408_1.html

No new nuclear plants likely before 2020

Reuters - Monday, August 20 06:26 pm
By Daniel Fineren Reuters - Monday, August 20 06:26 pm

LONDON (Reuters) - No nuclear power plants are likely to be built in Britain before 2020, if they are built at all, which will be too late to fill the country's looming power generation gap, according to a report published on Monday.

The government wants the private sector to build new nuclear power plants to replace the country's ageing reactors and plug a generation shortfall left by the closure of coal-fired power plants under European environment laws.

But the report by Poyry Energy Consulting says the commercial case for building new nuclear plants is shaky and that none will be built without a higher long-term carbon price than that set by the current European Union Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS).

"Despite the rhetoric, it is difficult to see much new nuclear capacity coming into the market before 2020," Poyry director Andrew Nind said.

<snip>
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. LOL - Finland "planned" to have a new EPR by 2009
Of course construction hasn't finished yet - and won't for several years.
Go back and look at the history.
Back when the prediction was made in 2007, construction cost and time estimates were much more optimistic than they are today.
You're posting marketing hype instead of reality-based analysis.

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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Finland will be done long before 2020 though.
Edited on Thu May-13-10 03:51 PM by Statistical
So much for no new nuclear power in Europe.

BTW not sure what marketing hype you are talking about. Turkey is the only reactors being planned and I clearly indicated that.

The list I provided is reactors under construction, not planned, or promised.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. He specifically excluded France and Finland
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. And the others currently under construction?
They will take more than a decade from now to complete?
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. So NO NUKES In Europe....
Edited on Thu May-13-10 03:16 PM by Statistical
except news ones built in France, Finland, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, and Turkey?
Plus even more after 2020?
Plus likely some extensions on existing reactors (Germany, Sweden) to meet ghg limits.
Plus reversing nuclear phase-out in Italy & Spain.
Plus even more nations considering/planning reactors.

But other than those minor caveats NO NUKES! :rofl:
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
24. Oops - that prediction was made in 2006. nt
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Only to replace existing plants?
Was there ever a possibility of increasing the total number any time in the next 15 years or so?

Even an agressive building campaign at this point would only replace retiring generation (not 1:1, but in general). The "replace existing only" position really doesn't mean anything until at least 2025-2030.

No subsidy might be a different kettle of fish. We'll have to see.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. That is the thing that anti's don't get.
There are 400GW of reactor capacity globally and power consumption is going up. That is a lot of construction just in replacement.

Wind will go through the same thing in about 40 years. Say wind has the largest ramp up between years 2020 and 2030. What I mean largest I don't mean % gain but rather nominal capacity installed. Now wind farm has finite economic lifespan so around 2050 those wind farms will need to be replaced. There will be a substantial amount of construction required just to keep wind's capacity "the same".
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
27. Hooray for the Fucking Tories and the shit they're dragging the LibDems into
:D
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