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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-10 03:29 PM
Original message
The TED Talk debate between Mark Jacobson and Stewart Brand is up
The debate was back in February.
http://www.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/renew_vs_nuclear.html
http://www.ted.com/talks/debate_does_the_world_need_nuclear_energy.html

Someone attending the debate wrote on his blog:
http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2010/02/12/ted-2010-highlights-2/

Despite his charisma, Brand 'lost' in the end -- the audience skew moved from 75/25 in favor of nukes in the beginning of the debate to 65/35 by the end.


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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-10 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. I love TED talks
and while there's occasionally one I think is all wet, most of them are at least thought provoking.

New for 2010 is "LXD," a dance troupe based on hiphop. I think they might be truly wonderful, unfortunately they've been hampered by a lighting designer who didn't consider the costumes or a costume designer who didn't consider the poor man's Balanchinesque lighting. It's still well worth watching. Some of the things they do are clearly impossible, yet they do them.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-10 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. About f'ing time. Thanks.
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-10 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
3. Excellent, thx!!
K&R
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-10 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. Brand picked the wrong thing to critique of Jacobson's flawed analysis.
Nitpicking the "CO2 released from nuclear war" aspect is all well and good, but it contributes very little to the point value system Jacobson created.

The biggest dent is 1) lifecycle of new nuclear plants, which is more than a pithy 40 years (and Gen III+ / IV will be as much as 120 years). And 2) 10-15 years to construct a new nuclear plant.

Had Brand mentioned either one of those, he would have made a very convincing point about Jacobson's flawed assessment.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Jacobson's analysis is reality based, Brand has fallen for industry hype and PR
Stewart Brand really doesn't know what he's talking about, he just swallows the hype and PR, he really hasn't researched the problems with the technology, he just parrots the hype and PR, as demonstrated in this 2005 interview with him:
http://www.laweekly.com/2005-11-10/news/green-to-the-core-part-2/2

If there’s a lot Brand hasn’t worked out — he didn’t, for instance, know the Pebble Bed Modular Reactor produced so much waste — no matter; Brand has enormous faith in future engineering and human invention. “It may well be true about the pebble bed and waste,” he allows. “But then, okay, back to the old drawing board! ... we have responsibility for this thing for 175 years. After that, it is fair to say that it is the next generation’s problem. Let them deal with it.”


That's the height of irresponsibility - Stewart Brand just wants to pass the problem on to future generations, especially after people like Stephen Pacala, Joe Romm, Amory Lovins, Mark Jacobson, Al Gore, and many others have shown us that we have more than enough resources to solve global warming without nuclear energy - and that, in fact, the time and money wasted on nuclear energy could be much better spent. As we know, South Africa planned to replace their coal plants with PBMR's and make fabulous riches selling them to other countries. And as we know, South Africa finally gave up on the pebble-bed reactor when, after the project was way behind schedule and overbudget, they finally realized the PBMR could melt down and required an expensive containment dome - making it too expensive and eliminating all the supposed benefits of the design. All that time and money was wasted and now it will take longer for South Africa to phase out its coal plants.


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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Yes, you're right, I should not have given Brand the benefit of the doubt.
He may actually not have known that Jacobson's analysis was flawed.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Jacobson's analysis is solid.
You are pretending that nuclear industry hype is the same as established reality; it isn't. There is no empirical evidence to validate the claims of the nuclear industry in the areas you cite.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-14-10 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. The statements I made are fact.
It is unlikely that new nuclear power will only last 40 years, or that new nuclear power will take 10-20 years to be built.

Unless you expect me to believe the claims by anti-wind shills that wind lasts only 15 years, etc.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-14-10 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. No, the statements you made aren't "fact".
Areva's third-generation model is so expensive and difficult to build, they're considering going back to their old second-generation design. And fourth generation reactors will be even more expensive. So your expectations about what is actually going to be built is based on cost models that we know are wrong. Even the CEO of Exelon says wind is cheaper than new nuclear. And the CEO of Entergy says "the numbers just don’t work" for new nuclear. Those aren't "anti-nukes", they are CEO's of two of the largest nuclear power companies in the US.

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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-14-10 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Areva is not representitive of all nuclear power.
More than 300 new nuclear power plants will be in construction or online within the decade.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-14-10 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Sure they will.
Edited on Mon Jun-14-10 04:02 PM by bananas
They'll be "in construction" for a long time before they're canceled.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x236360

Some 56 nuclear reactors are now officially being built—but 13 of these have been “under construction” for more than 20 years, ...


http://www.flickr.com/photos/16721844@N00/429450898/



Every two years the Nuclear Energy Agency (NEA) together with the International Atomic
Energy Agency (IAEA) publish detailed data about existing reactors, reactors under
construction, shut down reactors and also forecasts for the next 20–30 years. An early
forecasts in 1975 predicted the nuclear capacity of OECD member countries to grow to
between 772–890 GW by 1990. Based on such forecasts the uranium production capacities
were extended. But in reality, the installed capacity grew to 260 GW falling far below the
IAEA target range. The 1977 forecast was less ambitious, envisaging a range of between
860–999 GW by 2000. As the year 2000 came closer, the more modest the forecasts became
eventually predicting a capacity ranging between 318–395 GW by 2000. Actually, a total of
303 GW were installed in the year 2000. Every forecast by the IAEA in the past eventually
turned out as having been too optimistic.


http://www.csmonitor.com/Innovation/2009/0813/the-bumpy-road-to-nuclear-energy



In 1974, President Nixon announced Project Independence – a plan to build 1,000 nuclear stations. But of the 253 reactors eventually ordered by the US electric industry, 71 were canceled before construction began, according to a tally by the antinuclear group Beyond Nuclear.

Of the 182 construction permits granted by government commissions, 50 were abandoned in construction with billions in investment lost and 28 were closed before their 40-year licenses expired – including the Three Mile Island plant’s Unit 2.

Gary McCool knows all about the financial pitfalls of nuclear power. Thirty years ago the Plymouth State College reference librarian warned managers at his tiny New Hampshire Electric Cooperative that its plan to purchase 2 percent of the new Seabrook nuclear power plant’s generating output when it was completed could push the coop into bankruptcy – or perhaps produce the highest electric rates in the nation.

It turned out to be both. Today he’s still paying the price of nuclear power – even though his coop no longer purchases any. There on his monthly bill is a $6.06 charge for “stranded costs” – the cost of paying off the coop’s adventure into Seabrook.

It was a calamity echoed nationwide. Several government-owned power companies, including the Washington Public Power System, went bankrupt. Other investor-owned utilities, such as Long Island Lighting Company and Consumers Power, were nearly bankrupted.

This is a sidebar to the full story, Nuclear power’s new debate: cost



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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. We'll see, won't we?
Like AGW, it is testable, and will be proven right in due course.

Instead of posting incoherent data from the past one need only look at what is breaking ground now.

Sadly 300 new nuclear reactors will not make one iota of a dent in AGW.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Do you have links for those CEO quotes?
I'm not saying they aren't accurate, I'd just be interested in their context....
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Sure
And here are the discussion threads for even more context:

  1. Exelon CEO John Rowe: carbon price needed to be economic:

      gas $25-45
      wind $50-80
      nuclear $75-80
      solar $3-700

    So, wind is cheaper than nuclear.
    The source is the two links in this post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=247555&mesg_id=247588

    In the second link in that post, he says "Time isn't really right for a substantial increase in the nuclear fleet. Neither the politics nor the economics are there yet."

    Rowe doesn't mention it, but a reasonable expectation is that in ten years, gas will be higher (gradual depletion), wind and solar will be lower (Moore's-law type scaling), and nuclear will be about the same or higher (nuclear has a negative learning curve).


  2. Entergy CEO J. Wayne Leonard: "the numbers just don't work" for new nuclear
    If that isn't a clue-by-four, I don't know what is.
    The source link is in this post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=115&topic_id=248996

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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Financial Analysts Reject Merchant Nuclear as a Viable Business Model
This research from CitiGroup is typical of the pessimism expressed by financial analysts looking at nuclear power as a business endeavor that can stand alone without ongoing, long-term government cash infusions.

Citigroup 2008 on impact of renewables and energy efficiency:
What the market should not take for granted

GDP impact on demand and load factors

Consensus view is that electricity demand in the wide European region will grow by 1.5% p.a. over the next couple of decades. This is a view shared by UCTE in its latest System Adequacy Report. Although it is virtually impossible to produce irrefutable electricity demand forecast we are tempted to argue that the risks are on the downside since:

1. During the boom years of 2003-07, when GDP growth was strong and infrastructure investment high on the back of very liquid debt markets and due to the convergence of the new EU joiners, electricity consumption grew by 2.1% p.a.

2. Energy efficiency is likely to become a bigger driver as technology advances and as awareness rises. It is important to highlight that such measures also fall under the Climate Change agenda of governments, which has been one of the driving forces behind the renaissance of new nuclear.

As a result, we would expect electricity demand growth to be in the 0-1% range for at least the next 5 years, before returning to more normal pace of 1.5-2%. We therefore see scope for an extra 346TWh of electricity that needs to be covered by 2020 vs. 2008 levels.

Should EU countries go half way towards meeting their renewables target of 20% by 2020 that would be an extra ca. 440TWh. Even if EU went only half way, which by all means is a very conservative estimate, that would still be ca.220TWh of additional generation. Under its conservative ‘scenario A’ forecast, UCTE expects 28GW of net new fossil fuel capacity to be constructed by 2020. On an average load factor of 45% for those plants that’s an extra 110TWh.

Therefore under very conservative assumptions on renewables, we can reliably expect an extra 330TWh of electricity to be generated by 2020, leaving a shortfall of 16TWh to be made up by either energy efficiency or new nuclear.

There are currently 10GW of nuclear capacity under construction/development, including the UK proposed plants that should be on operation by 2020. If we assume that energy efficiency will not contribute, that would imply a load factor for the plants of 18%. Looking at the entire available nuclear fleet that would imply a load factor of just 76%. We do believe though that steps towards energy efficiency will also be taken, thus the impact on load factors could be larger.

Under a scenario of the renewables target being fully delivered then the load factor for nuclear would fall to 56%.

(Bold in original)

Citigroup Global Markets European Nuclear Generation 2 December 2008




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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. All about business for you.
Even, at the high end of the estimates, nuclear is still cheaper than $100 carbon tax / tonne. (As it will prevent much more CO2 from ever being released.)
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. That post follows the ongoing conversation.
Cited by proponents of nuclear power as "the" definitive study on nuclear power: Actual findings from MIT nuclear study:
Over the next 50 years, unless patterns change dramatically, energy production and use will contribute to global warming through large-scale greenhouse gas emissions — hundreds of billions of tonnes of carbon in the form of carbon dioxide. Nuclear power could be one option for reducing carbon emissions. At present, however, this is unlikely: nuclear power faces stagnation and decline.

This study analyzes what would be required to retain nuclear power as a significant option for reducing greenhouse gas emissions and meeting growing needs for electricity supply. Our analysis is guided by a global growth scenario that would expand current worldwide nuclear generating capacity almost threefold, to 1000 billion watts,by the year 2050.Such a deployment would avoid 1.8 billion tonnes of carbon emissions annually from coal plants, about 25% of the increment in carbon emissions otherwise expected in a business-as-usual scenario. This study also recommends changes in government policy and industrial practice needed in the relatively near term to retain an option for such an outcome. (Want to guess what these are? - K)

We did not analyze other options for reducing carbon emissions — renewable energy sources, carbon sequestration,and increased energy efficiency — and therefore reach no conclusions about priorities among these efforts and nuclear power. In our judgment, it would be a mistake to exclude any of these four options at this time.

STUDY FINDINGS
For a large expansion of nuclear power to succeed,four critical problems must be overcome:

Cost. In deregulated markets, nuclear power is not now cost competitive with coal and natural gas.However,plausible reductions by industry in capital cost,operation and maintenance costs, and construction time could reduce the gap. Carbon emission credits, if enacted by government, can give nuclear power a cost advantage.

Safety.
Modern reactor designs can achieve a very low risk of serious accidents, but “best practices”in construction and operation are essential.We know little about the safety of the overall fuel cycle,beyond reactor operation.

Waste.
Geological disposal is technically feasible but execution is yet to be demonstrated or certain. A convincing case has not been made that the long-term waste management benefits of advanced, closed fuel cycles involving reprocessing of spent fuel are outweighed by the short-term risks and costs. Improvement in the open,once through fuel cycle may offer waste management benefits as large as those claimed for the more expensive closed fuel cycles.

Proliferation.
The current international safeguards regime is inadequate to meet the security challenges of the expanded nuclear deployment contemplated in the global growth scenario. The reprocessing system now used in Europe, Japan, and Russia that involves separation and recycling of plutonium presents unwarranted proliferation risks.




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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Yet, as the two MIT studies show, such "projections" are not set in stone.
You guys keep citing old data for a reason, each time a new nuclear plant breaks ground, it is a new datapoint.

It is a 100% denialist tactic.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Bullshit.
The only thing proved by time is that the industry-sourced cost data MIT relied on for their cost projections was total trash. All of the paper's conclusions regarding the obstacles facing nuclear remain as obstacles with no indication at all that solutions are forthcoming.



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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. The outlook improved between the two papers. Fact.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-14-10 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. There is no evidence to support the nuclear industry claims - period.
You are pushing nuclear industry hype - nothing more. MIT used the same longevity numbers as Jacobson in their 2003 study. They ALSO used industry numbers for costs, a decision which has been shown by prices since to be nothing short of idiotic. When the truncated 2009 "update" was accomplished the two authors tried to compensate for their original choice to use industry cost claims by now adopting equally unfounded industry longevity claims.

http://www.olino.org/us/articles/2009/11/26/the-economics-of-nuclear-reactors-renaissance-or-relapse

You're also misstating Jacobson on what happens at 40 years:
"We assume that after the first lifetime of any plant, the plant is refurbished or retrofitted, requiring a downtime of 2-4 years for nuclear, 2-3 years for coal-CCS, and 1-2 years for all other technologies. We then calculate the CO2e emissions per kWh due to the total downtime for each technology over 100 years of operation assuming emissions during downtime will be the average current emission of the power sector. Finally, we subtract such emissions for each technology from that of the technology with the least emissions to obtain the “opportunity-cost” CO2e emissions for the technology. The opportunity-cost emissions of the least-emitting technology is, by definition, zero. Solar-PV, CSP, and wind all had the lowest CO2e emissions due to planning-to-operation time, so any could be used to determine the opportunity cost of the other technologies."

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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-14-10 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Show me peer reviewed papers, please.
I know that third rate journals and bullshit online papers are a focus for you, but let's be honest here.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I did
You are the one operating totally from unsubstantiated nuclear industry assertions and the half-assed, self-serving rationalizing that passes for "analysis" among those who are involved in the nuclear propaganda effort.

Let's see YOU provide peer reviewed support for YOUR assertions. As I recall, the best effort of the Nuclear Energy Institute to criticize Jacobson (the basis for your claims) couldn't pass peer review and was rejected outright. That's right, it was so BAD that it wasn't returned with corrections suggested, it was REJECTED as being FUNDAMENTALLY UNSOUND SCIENCE.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. You are being dishonest, your sources were not posted in a peer reviewed paper.
Edited on Tue Jun-15-10 05:29 PM by joshcryer
And Jacobson's paper was published in a brand new, third rate journal, that had to spam wikipedia to get publicity. If Westinghouse says AP-1000 can last 60 years, with another 60 after upgrades and refurbishment, then I am willing to believe them as much as you or Swift Wind, or anyone else claiming 20 years for a wind turbine.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
6. Kick and recommend
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
26. Kick
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