Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Providing all Global Energy with Wind, Water, and Solar Power,

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU
 
Fledermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-11 05:14 PM
Original message
Providing all Global Energy with Wind, Water, and Solar Power,
Part I: Technologies, Energy Resources,
Quantities and Areas of Infrastructure, and Materials

Mark Z. Jacobson and Mark A. Delucchi


Abstract
Climate change, pollution, and energy insecurity are among the greatest problems of our time.
Addressing them requires major changes in our energy infrastructure. Here, we analyze the
feasibility of providing worldwide energy for all purposes (electric power, transportation,
heating/cooling) from wind, water, and sunlight (WWS). In Part I, we discuss WWS energy
system characteristics, current and future energy demand, availability of WWS resources,
numbers of WWS devices, and area and material requirements. In Part II, we address variability,
economics, and policy of WWS energy. We estimate that ~3,800,000 5-MW wind turbines,
~49,000 300-MW concentrated solar plants, ~40,000 solar PV power plants, ~1.7 billion 3-kW
rooftop PV systems, ~5350 100-MW geothermal power plants, ~270 new 1300-MW
hydroelectric power plants, ~720,000 0.75-MW wave devices, and ~490,000 1-MW tidal
turbines can power a 2030 WWS world converted to electricity and electrolytic hydrogen for all
purposes. The additional land footprint and spacing needed are ~0.41% and ~0.59% of world
land area, respectively. We suggest producing all new energy with WWS by 2030 and replacing
pre-existing energy by 2050. Barriers to the plan are primarily social and political, not
technological or economic. The energy cost in a WWS world should be similar to that today.
http://www.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/WWSEnergyPolicyPtI.pdf


Strange, nuclear power is not in the program.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-11 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's not "strange" at all
It's the Mark and Mark show.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
30. 70% of those hydro plants are already in place.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-11 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. I'm concerned about those 270 new hydroelectric plants.
That's a lot of dams and isn't exactly green.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-11 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Not just 270 new hydro plants
270 HUGE hydro plants. :o
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-11 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. That's the equivalent of 175 Hoover Dams or about 20 Three Gorges Dams
Whoof!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. I thought we'd tapped practically every location for hydro?
Edited on Thu Jan-06-11 03:04 AM by joshcryer
ie, hydro that doesn't require significant land reformation to build it, natural depressions of whatever which would be ideal to just plug a waterway.

Does Jacobson at least have some potential spots to put his hydro?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. Yes we have. No he hasn't...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. See post 20
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
34. You know that assertion is false.
Edited on Thu Jan-06-11 10:53 PM by kristopher
Below you quoted from the same section where Jacobson specifies that 70% of the hydro he calls for is already in place. You were also corrected in another thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x112801#126823
You may want to consider reading the papers you are trying to find fault with. While 270 is the number of 1300 MW generators that Jacobson and Delucci have projected a need for, that doesn't equate to 270 new dams.

For reference, 3 Gorges Dam has 26 700MW generators with a total capacity of 18.2 gigawatts.



4. Quantities and Areas of Plants and Devices Required

How many WWS power plants or devices are required to power the world and U.S.? Table 4 provides an estimate for 2030, assuming a given fractionation of the demand (from Table 2) among technologies. Wind and solar together are assumed to comprise 90% of the future supply based on their relative abundances (Table 3). Although 4% of the proposed future supply is hydro, most of this amount (70%) is already in place. Solar PV is divided into 30% rooftop, based on an analysis of likely available rooftop area (Jacobson, 2009), and 70% power plant. Rooftop PV has three major advantages over power-plant PV: rooftop PV do not require an electricity transmission and distribution network, they can be integrated into a hybrid solar system that produces heat, light, and electricity for use on site (Chow, 2010), and they do not require new land area. Table 4 suggests that almost 4 million 5-MW wind turbines (over land or water) and about 90,000 300-MW PV plus CSP power plants are needed to help power the world. Already, about 0.8% of the wind is installed.

The total footprint on the ground (for the turbine tubular tower and base) for the 4 million wind turbines required to power 50% of the world’s energy is only ~48 km2, smaller than Manhattan (59.5 km2) whereas the spacing needed between turbines to minimize the effects of one turbine reducing energy to other turbines is ~1.17% of the global land area. The spacing can be used for agriculture, rangeland, open space, or can be open water. Whereas, wind turbines have foundations under the ground larger than their base on the ground, such underground foundation areas are not footprint, which is defined as the area of a device or plant touching the top surface of the soil, since such foundations are covered with dirt, allowing vegetation to grow and wildlife to flourish on top of them. The footprint area for wind also does not include temporary or unpaved dirt access roads, as most large-scale wind will go over areas such as the Great Plains and some desert regions, where photographs of several farms indicate unpaved access roads blend into the natural environment and are often overgrown by vegetation. Offshore wind does not require roads at all. In farmland locations, most access roads have dual purposes, serving agricultural fields as well as turbines. In cases where paved access roads are needed, 1 km2 of land provides ~200 km (124 miles) of linear roadway 5 m wide, so access roads would not increase the footprint requirements of wind farms more than a small amount. The footprint area also does not include transmission, since the actual footprint area of a transmission tower is smaller than the footprint area of a wind turbine. This is because a transmission tower consists of four narrow metal support rods separated by distance, penetrating the soil to an underground foundation. Many photographs of transmission towers indicate more vegetation growing under the towers than around the towers since areas around that towers are often agricultural or otherwise used land whereas the area under the tower is vegetated soil. Since the land under transmission towers supports vegetation and wildlife, it is not considered footprint beyond the small area of the support rods.

For non-rooftop solar PV plus CSP, the areas required are considered here to be entirely footprint although technically a walking space, included here as footprint, is required between solar panels (Jacobson, 2009). Powering 34% of the world with non-rooftop solar PV plus CSP requires about one-quarter of the land area for footprint plus spacing as does powering 50% of the world with wind but a much larger footprint area alone than does wind (Table 4). The footprint area required for rooftop solar PV has already been developed, as rooftops already exist. As such, these areas do not require further increases in land requirements. Geothermal power requires a smaller footprint than does solar but a larger footprint than does wind per unit energy generated. The footprint area required for hydroelectric is large due to the large area required to store water in a reservoir, but 70% of needed hydroelectric power for a WWS system is already in place.

Together, the entire WWS solution would require the equivalent of ~0.74% of the global land surface area for footprint and 1.18% for spacing (or 1.9% for footprint plus spacing). Up to 61% of the footprint plus spacing area could be over the ocean if all wind were placed over the ocean although a more likely scenario is that 30-60% of wind may ultimately be placed over the ocean given the strong wind speeds there (Figure 1). If 50% of wind energy were over the ocean, and since wave and tidal are over the ocean, and if we consider that 70% of hydroelectric power is already in place and that rooftop solar does not require new land, the additional footprint and spacing areas required for all WWS power for all purposes worldwide are only ~0.41% and ~0.59%, respectively, of all land worldwide (or 1.0% of all land for footprint plus spacing).


Providing all Global Energy with Wind, Water, and Solar Power, Part I: Technologies, Energy Resources, Quantities and Areas of Infrastructure, and Materials, pg 11, 12
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-11 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
4. The deets:
The total footprint on the ground (for the turbine tubular tower and base) for the 4 million wind turbines required to power 50% of the world’s energy is only ~48 km2, smaller than Manhattan (59.5 km2) whereas the spacing needed between turbines to minimize the effects of one turbine reducing energy to other turbines is ~1.17% of the global land area. The spacing can be used for agriculture, rangeland, open space, or can be open water. Whereas, wind turbines have foundations under the ground larger than their base on the ground, such underground foundation areas are not footprint, which is defined as the area of a device or plant touching the top surface of the soil, since such foundations are covered with dirt, allowing vegetation to grow and wildlife to flourish on top of them. The footprint area for wind also does not include temporary or unpaved dirt access roads, as most large-scale wind will go over areas such as the Great Plains and some desert regions, where photographs of several farms indicate unpaved access roads blend into the natural environment and are often overgrown by vegetation. Offshore wind does not require roads at all. In farmland locations, most access roads have dual purposes, serving agricultural fields as well as turbines. In cases where paved access roads are needed, 1 km2 of land provides ~200 km (124 miles) of linear roadway 5 m wide, so access roads would not increase the footprint requirements of wind farms more than a small amount. The footprint area also does not include transmission, since the actual footprint area of a transmission tower is smaller than the footprint area of a wind turbine. This is because a transmission tower consists of four narrow metal support rods separated by distance, penetrating the soil to an underground foundation. Many photographs of transmission towers indicate more vegetation growing under the towers than around the towers since areas around that towers are often agricultural or otherwise used land whereas the area under the tower is vegetated soil. Since the land under transmission towers supports vegetation and wildlife, it is not considered footprint beyond the small area of the support rods.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-11 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. My favorite part:
A related proposal is to use thorium as a nuclear fuel, which is less likely to lead to nuclear weapons proliferation than the use of uranium, produces less long-lived radioactive waste, and greatly extends uranium resources (Macfarlane and Miller, 2007).


:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. Sounds like Mark Z is leaving himself an escape hatch
Not that I blame him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. It is a good section - when read in its totality
You've demonstrated once again your lack of regard for the truth...

A related proposal is to use thorium as a nuclear fuel, which is less likely to lead to nuclear
weapons proliferation than the use of uranium, produces less long-lived radioactive waste, and
greatly extends uranium resources (Macfarlane and Miller, 2007).

However, thorium reactors require the same significant time lag between planning and operation as conventional uranium reactors and most likely longer because few developers and scientists have experience with constructing or running thorium reactors, As such, this technology will result in greater emissions from the background electric grid compared with WWS technologies, which have a shorter time lag.

In addition, lifecycle emissions of carbon from a thorium reactor are on the same order as those from a uranium reactor.

Further, thorium still produces radioactive waste containing 231Pa, which has a half-life of 32,760 years.

It also produces 233U, which can be used in fission weapons, such as in one nuclear bomb core during the Operation Teapot nuclear tests in 1955.


Weaponization, though, is made more difficult by the presence of 232U.



The section that preceded your quote:
For several reasons we do not consider nuclear energy (conventional fission, breeder reactors, or fusion) as a long-term global energy source.

First, the growth of nuclear energy has historically increased the ability of nations to obtain or enrich uranium for nuclear weapons (Ullom <1994>), and a large-scale worldwide increase in nuclear energy facilities would exacerbate this problem, putting the world at greater risk of a nuclear war or terrorism catastrophe (Kessides, 2010; Feiveson, 2009; Miller and Sagan, 2009; Macfarlane and Miller, 2007; Harding, 2007)...

...Second, nuclear energy results in 9-25 times more carbon emissions than wind energy, in part due to emissions from uranium refining and transport and reactor construction (e.g., Lenzen, 2008; Sovacool, 2008), in part due to the longer time required to site, permit, and construct a nuclear plant compared with a wind farm (resulting electricity sector during this period; Jacobson, 2009)...

...Third, conventional nuclear fission relies on finite stores of uranium that a large-scale nuclear program with a “once through” fuel cycle would exhaust in roughly a century (e.g., Macfarlane and Miller, 2007; Adamantiades and Kessides, 2009). In addition, accidents at nuclear power plants have been either catastrophic (Chernobyl) or damaging (Three-Mile Island), and although the nuclear industry has improved the safety and performance of reactors, and has proposed new (but generally untested) “inherently” safe reactor designs (Piera, 2010; Penner et al., 2010; Adamantiades and Kessides, 2009; Mourogov et al., 2002; Mourogov, 2000), there is no guarantee that the reactors will be designed, built and operated correctly. For example, Pacific Gas and Electric Company had to redo some modifications it made to its Diablo Canyon nuclear power plant after the original work was done backwards (Energy Net, 2010), and French nuclear regulators recently told the firm Areva to correct a safety design flaw in its latest-generation reactor (Nuclear Power Daily, 2009). Further, catastrophic scenarios involving terrorist attacks are still conceivable (Feiveson, 2009). Even if the risks of catastrophe are very small, they are not zero (Feiveson, 2009), whereas with wind and solar power, the risk of catastrophe is zero.

Finally, conventional nuclear power produces radioactive waste, which must be stored for thousands of years, raising technical and long-term cost questions (Barré, 1999; von Hippel, 2008; Adamantiades and Kessides, 2009).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Yes, but Jacobson says that the thorium fuel cycle reduces poliferation risk, which is something...
...the liars here have said for the longest time it doesn't.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. The pronuclear posters have touted thorium as "the answer" to proliferation
That is the claim that has been debunked. No one said it wasn't better than once through, but nuclear proliferation is still a problem with thorium.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Nope, Jacobson agrees that thorium is poliferation resistant.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. What's even more amusing is that he pretends to discuss lifecycle emissions of nuclear...
...power like thorium reactors, but his original paper does not in fact discuss the lifecycle emissions of a future non-existing reactor technology like thorium reactors.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-11 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Oh snap, it's all so clear now:
Since wind turbines replace other electricity sources that also produce heat in this manner (Sta. Maria and Jacobson, 2009), wind turbines (and other renewable electricity sources) replacing current infrastructure cause no net heat addition to the atmosphere.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. That's one of the most ignorant statements he's ever made.
Edited on Thu Jan-06-11 01:46 AM by wtmusic
At least 35,000 TW of energy is being radiated to space from the Earth at any given time; average total energy production on earth is around 300 GW.

35,000/.3 = 116,600 times as much energy is disappearing into space as we're creating, Mark. You could throw every watthour in the trash can and it wouldn't scratch the surface of the energy absorbed by the natural gas being burned to back up your f*cking windmills.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. He does point out local ecosystems the paragraph before that.
However, those problems are rather trivially mitigated (more efficient cooling towers, etc).

But yes, the "waste heat contribution" thing is so offensive to sensible people that it's appalling it's even being used here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. You mean the "waste heat contribution" is offensive to nuclear power proponents...
Those concerned about climate change are interested in ALL inputs to AGW - a fact that defines you perfectly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. No, even CSP would have this problem, but CSP would solve it with molten salt and brayton cycle...
...generators that don't require significant water to operate.

Hell, the hundreds of thousands of square miles of PV and CSP alone would change the albedo of the planet significantly, which would cause more warming than all current power plants.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Bullshit.
Edited on Thu Jan-06-11 05:22 PM by kristopher
everything in your post is false.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Everything in your post is substanceless.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-11 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
8. This again. 40% of global gross capital formation for 20 years. During a recession.
To replace energy we already have...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 04:18 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. Even out of a recession with unheard of China-like growth we couldn't afford 40% GCF.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Terry in Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
33. Ack! Yes, it's this again. 20th century thinking remains undead.
Zombie technocracy at its best...

Problem? Just build a lot of keen machines on an unprecedented scale. No problem!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-11 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
9. Wow!!!!!!!!!! MARK V. JACOBSEN IS A GOD!! Like most anti-nukes....
he can't count and apparently doesn't know how to read any kind of news.

If solar and wind and all of the other yuppie toys were going to do something, the unrestrained and uncritical faith based cheering for them over the last 50 years would have produced something other than statements that read like the last 2000 years of Popes declaring the imminent return of Jesus.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
10. Construction cost: $100 TRILLION
"Overall construction cost for a WWS (Wind/Water/Sun) system might be on the order of $100 trillion worldwide, over 20 years, not including transmission."

Source: Jacobson and Delucci, A Path To Sustainable Energy By 2030, Scientific American, Nov. 2009, page 64.

That doesn't include a) growth of demand, b) new transmission systems ("supergrids"), c) cost overruns.

The plan also requires massive new finds of "a few key resources" (presumably molybdenum for wind turbine moving parts) without which the plan fails.

"Strange, nuclear power is not in the program."

Of course not. $100 trillion could build 10,000 nuclear reactors at $10 billion each -- which itself is five times the cost of Chinese and Indian reactors. That many reactors would produce three to five times as much energy as Jacobson and Delucci's plan, and have a lifetime of 60-100 years, not 15-30 in the case of WWS.

--d!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. Wow, so much ownage. But yeah, $100 trillion = 300 Apollo's or 50 WWII's.
Approximate of course, but it's pretty goddamn appalling, especially when the US cannot even keep NASA's budget growing at inflation. :(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. Now that's just *NOT* *FAIR*!
You're not supposed to read the damn paper, just post hundreds of copies
of the bits that you think are supporting your position into threads that
have SFA to do with the subject!

Digging out all of the fairy-dust and dragging the economist hand-waves into
the light is just downright rude and will upset people.

Honestly, haven't people learned anything from this forum?

:hide:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. $5 trillion/year. I know that Ohio spends billions per year on electrical and gas energy
That's Ohio, alone. Only eleven million people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu May 02nd 2024, 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC