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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-11 11:24 PM
Original message
Chinese Government Approves 4 More New Nuclear Reactors.
Of the http://world-nuclear.org/NuclearDatabase/rdresults.aspx?id=27569&ExampleId=62">more than 60 nuclear reactors now under construction around the world, 24 of them are Chinese, and that's not counting Taiwan, where two reactors are being built.

One is American: Construction of Watts Bar 2 which had been suspended for decades and was more than 80% complete when abandoned has now been resumed. The reactor will be completed by 2013.

Today, China announced approval for 4 additional reactors which will have first concrete poured probably the next two years. China has recently been completing reactors in about 4 and a half years. China has announced that it will have 80 reactors by 2020, making it the second largest producer of nuclear energy in the world, after the United States, but ahead of France and Japan. Thus this approval is hardly likely to be last announced this year. China plans 500 reactors by 2050. The Chinese Reactor building program over the next 5 years has been funded with $120 billion (US).

China National Nuclear Corp (CNNC) has received governmental approval to begin preliminary work on four new nuclear power reactors: two at the existing Tianwan site in Jiangsu province and two at the new Xudabao plant in Liaoning province.

The approval came from the National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC) and should lead to the construction of Tianwan 3 and 4 (Phase II of the plant) and the first two units at Phase I of Xudabao.

At Tianwan, CNNC will construct two 1060 MWe Russian-supplied VVER-1000 pressurised water reactors, alongside the existing two such units at the site. A contract for the engineering design of Tianwan 3 and 4 was signed in September 2010 between CNNC subsidiary Jiangsu Nuclear Power Corporation and AtomStroyExport, and the general construction contract was signed in November 2010. First concrete for unit 3 is scheduled to be poured in December 2012, while concrete for unit 4 will start to be poured in August 2013, CNNC said.

The first reactor at Tianwan was put into commercial operation in June 2007, with the second following three months later. The plant is eventually expected to house eight reactors, although units 5 to 8 are likely to be larger VVER-1200 units.



http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/NN-Chinese_government_approves_reactor_projects-0501114.html">Chinese government approves reactor projects.

Have a nice day tomorrow.
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Mark Maker Donating Member (168 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-11 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. So while the Chinese invest in safe, reliable and clean nuclear
power, here in the United States we'll still be choking on coal and oil fired plants and deluding ourselves about the fairy tale of wind and solar to meet our energy requirements.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-11 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Basically, you've summed the situation up nicely, n/t
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. Oil fired plants? You are both rolling in the bull shit.
It doesn't cost you anything to be an ___ ____.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Why don't you email this highly intelligent remark to the Chinese gov't.
I'm sure they'll be very impressed and will abandon their $120 billion 5 year nuclear development program.

Have some of your equally bright pals email them 250,000 cut and paste excerpts of Mark V. Jacobsen's hallucinatory ravings.

Have a nice day.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. 1% of US electricity is produced from petroleum products
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. Well, that makes petroleum vastly more important to electricity than solar.
Doesn't it?

I've been here for many years, and in spite of all the "world's largest" stupid talk, solar still doesn't produce 1% of the electricity anywhere on earth, not even Germany.

The dumbells in the "solar will save us" scam always want to have it both ways, and of course, they aren't able to do math.

Have a nice day.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. dumbell nonsense
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-09-21/solar-doubling-gas-glut-drive-down-german-power-prices-energy-markets.html

Solar Sales

Global 2010 sales for photovoltaic panels may more than double to as much as 18,000 megawatts and then flatten next year as countries including Germany, Italy and France cut solar energy subsidies, Bloomberg New Energy Finance estimated.

Germany meets as much as 10 percent of its power demand from the sun on some days, Andreas Haenel, chief executive officer of German solar-plant developer Phoenix Solar AG, said in an interview last month. In the southernmost state of Bavaria, solar power contributes as much as 25 percent of total electricity when the sun shines and demand is low, he said.

Solar power’s share may rise to as much as 7.5 percent of Germany’s total power generation by 2013, according to Deutsche Energy Agentur GmbH, from about 1 percent last year, as measured by industry group Bundesverband Solarwitschaft.

As solar capacity jumps, traders will increasingly depend on data for projecting availability and prices. The European Energy Exchange AG in Leipzig started publishing daily data on expected solar capacity on July 19, in addition to estimates on other German power sources. Solar output was expected to peak today at as much as 7,963 megawatts at 1 p.m. Berlin time, according to a forecast published yesterday.

:rofl:
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-11 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. For more than 10 years you've been doing soothsaying. Now it's "by 2013?"
Then the marketing bull "on some days."

The capacity utilization of solar is lucky to reach 10%. This means of course, that the "18,000 Megawatt" is the equivalent of an 1,800 MW gas plant, except the gas plant doesn't require a redundant system.

The liars in the solar industry, who have caused tens of billions of euros to be thrown down the solar toy rabbit hole still talk in "watts," units of peak power.

Nuclear power remains, has it has for more than 4 decades, the largest single source of climate change gas free energy in Germany, and in Europe as well.

Have a nice day reading tarot cards.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-11 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #23
32. You hate the people in the E/E forum, so you insult them
You might accomplish something doing outreach work...somewhere else
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-11 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Yeah, there are very insulting people on E&E.
I can say I have only been insulted by him once or twice. Otherwise there are people here who insult me continually. The latest insult is that I'm "not an environmentalist" because I hold the same views as James Hansen.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-11 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. I'm not talking to you
I didn't read your post, either
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-11 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Good for you.
I was talking to you.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. .
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Send them the picture too. I'm sure they'll very impressed.
Edited on Thu Jan-06-11 08:25 PM by NNadir
Thanks for demonstrating, once, again, how it must feel to be irrelevant.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
15. The delusion is nuclear power
You forget - again - that China is investing in 150 GW of new wind power capacity and 20 MW of new PV capacity.

China's investment in "fairy tale" renewable energy (500 GW by 2020) far outstrips US investments in renewables and their puny investment in 40 GW of nuclear capacity.

have a nice NEI propaganda day

:rofl:
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
44. Welcome to DU! Sorry that I have to disagree about renewable energy sources
Edited on Sun Jan-09-11 09:54 AM by txlibdem
Thank you for posting; it's always nice to hear from a fellow pro-nuclear power DU'er.

You have a point that solar and wind, *today*, are not growing fast enough to make a significant impact on coal use. BTW, we get only about 1% of our electrical power from oil fired plants: http://www.eia.doe.gov/aer/pecss_diagram.html

But, to say that solar and wind power's ability to meet our energy requirements is a "fairy tale" is just not accurate. On a per gigawatt basis, solar is just as cheap as nuclear to build and maintain. After the capital costs are repaid solar should have an edge over nuclear because the fuel cost is zero for solar versus nuclear (ref: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epaxlfile8_2.pdf --be sure to read the legend to understand "mills per kilowatt hour"). Nuclear comes in at just above 1/2 cent per kilowatt hour for the cost of the fuel, which becomes real money at the gigawatt level. (note: incorrect math removed, sorry NNadir)

When we actually get serious about massive expansions of both solar power and wind power generation here in the US, the fairy tale becomes a reality. One surprising group throwing up roadblocks to large solar power projects: environmentalists. That is what really throws me for a loop, the very same people who should be championing solar and wind projects are fighting their hardest to stop solar projects. It makes me question the true motives of these "environmentalists."
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Newest Reality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-11 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. I know we are hungry, hungry, hungry
for energy and want to preserve our modern way of life ...

Has anyone figured out to do with the waste yet? Also, I remember reading a while back that the materials for reactors are also not infinite in supply and will eventually run out. I imagine that that many reactors, (and the huge number China intends) will also bring Peak Nuclear.

I didn't realize so many reactors were going to be built worldwide, so thanks for the post.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. So called "Nuclear Waste" is largely an imaginary problem. China's reactor fleet
is essentially designed to consume 100% of all of it's mined uranium. There are NO fission products which are not valuable and concern with the "waste" problem of nuclear is usually raised without reference to the dangerous fossil fuel waste problem, although the former has injured zero people, and the latter kills many millions of people each year..

China's reactor fleet, both existing and under construction is a very nice mix of fast spectrum reactors (2 have been ordered from Russia) and a healthy dollop of heavy water pressurized reactors, which can burn used nuclear fuel directly without reprocessing. However the Chinese are constructing reprocessing plants right now. They will be the second nation, after India, to move heavily into the thorium cycle, but unlike India they will integrate it with the plutonium/uranium cycle. I am fond of both cycles.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Just like Chinese drywall, they will have a disaster.
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TheMadMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-11 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
37. So oil wells don't blow out, coal mines don't collapse and tailings dams...
...don't spill. Nor do refineries explode. Ships full of oil and sneakers don't ground.

Need I continue?

Your example, drywall, or as we call it here in Australia "Gyprock" (tm) is NOT a labour intensive product to manufacture. Almost every aspect is either mechanised with a very limited number of operators, or fully automated. FFS it's plaster rolled between two sheets of paper.

To screw the ex-factory price point down to the point where it can be shipped across the largest ocean on the planet, and then across the country to Florida and NOLA (where I believe most of this "pernicious" product put in its appearance) there ain't much room for movement on labour. Ergo, cost savings must come from the materials used. A filler that someone PAYS you to take it off their hands? Just the thing to offset some or all of the shipping costs.


Now try this on for size. America is (or was last time I looked) China's biggest market for consumer goods. America was EVERYONE'S biggest market for just about anything. And just about every single place you look in the world, it is American interests which are the worst offenders both directly and indirectly in opposing any tightening of environmental protections AND in violating whatever protections might be in place, even in America itself.

By no means am I saying that American comercial interests are the ONLY offenders in this regard, others are doing their bit to trash the World for a profit. However, American interests are almost certainly close to (if not the) the WORST offenders when it comes to actions directly harmful to the environment AND influencing others in a manner that leads to harm.


Relatively speaking, China has proably run a little ahead of the curve when it comes to developing an environmental conscience alongside its rapidly expanding industrial capacity. It is only the sheer numbers involved that makes their absolute impact on the environment so visible. Try to imagine how a 19th C England, and early 20th C America would have looked with a population density like China has today. Compared to those nightmare scenarios, China's performance is close to fucking brilliant.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-11 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Sure all of those things happen - which is why nuclear is so problematic
There is no such thing as a "safe and green" nuclear power plant. Just as they claim was the case with the Deepwater Horizon, the ultimate cause of the next major accident with nuclear power is guaranteed to be "human failure" that "no one could have predicted".

Except of course, for the fact that literally thousands of people ARE predicting it.
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TheMadMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #38
41. If you approach "safe" and "green" as absolutes, then NOTHING...
...nothing at all is hazard or cost free.

Nuclear energy by its demonstrated track record over more than half a century now, is demonstrably orders of magnitude greener and safer than what we have right now, even if we are willing to ignore the greenhouse issue entirely.

You blythely talk of using Electric vehicles connected to the grid to help ballance the load. Even if 1/2 of all vehicles are connected to the grid at any given time, at best they might be able to meet 1-2% of demand at any given time. Solar alone requires storage equal to at least 50% it's average daylight generating capacity to equalise over 24 hours.

You blythely talk of a distributed system in which high winds in the NW can compensate for lulls in the south, & vice versa. So multiple redundancy is what you're really talking about. In fact highly significant generation overcapacity is needed across the board for almost all "renewables", to compensate for regional, seasonal and daily variations in wind, sun and water heads. And at the end of it all, there is still the need for a lot more storage capacity than an electric vehicle fleet can provide.


Nuclear can be plugged straight into the grid and coal plants switched off. Pretty much every large scale renewable project requires some degree of local or regional modification to the grid to hook it in and the as we add more, my feeling is that the need to make changes to the grid will accelerate faster than added generation capacity.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. Your statements are false.
Nuclear risk assessment is based on low probabilities but high consequences. All it takes is ONE Chernobyl scale release in a populated area. You don't get a "do over" when millions of lives and an entire nation's economic health is at stake.

Your criticisms of renewable are cherry picked half truths that in no way influence the balance of benefits and costs between the relative technologies.

Perhaps the reason you support nuclear is that you lack the ability to envision anything other than a solution that can be "plugged straight into the grid". That would certainly explain why the characteristics of the relative technologies are meaningless to you.
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TheMadMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #42
46. Um, if we don't put nuke plants in the middle of cities they can't kill...
...millions in the incredibly remote chance one does blow up.

At the observed rate of reactors going boom, we still come out streets ahead of the toll coal fired power plants take on the greater population.

Furthermore, since you are so bloody determined to harp on about misrepresentation, let me point out that the "Chernobyl scale event" you claim as a dangling Sword of Damocles for every man jack of us, had to be MADE to happen through deliberate mismanagement of a decades old reactor of even older design without any passive safety sytems of significance and no containment whatsoever.

The level of deliberate missmanagement necessary to bring about a similar event in a modern reactor is nearly inconceivable. And it's most certainly not a one man operation. Ordinary bean counting mismanagement, at worst (and it would have to be a very bad worst at virtually every level of operations and regulatory oversight), could result in a limited amount of localised contamination and a badly (and very expensively) crashed reactor. Every incentive is in place to discourage that sort of missmanagement. Some corners are just not worth cutting.

Liquid fuel reactors take that idea one step further and are designed to be deliberately crashed and restarted with an absolute minimum of fuss.

Straight up operational safety of nuclear facilities is essentially a non-issue. Responsibility in politics and human interactions are something we have to deal with on so many other levels that nuclear power is small potatoes. Either we sort out ALL of our differences as a global species, or a nuclear route to our probable downfall as a technological species is just one of many express handbaskets to hell available to us.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. This is why I advocate non-pressurized salt cooled reactors that cannot blow up.
Under any circumstances.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. And what would those be?
Where are they in use now? What are you talking about, like a link to this technology?
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #54
58. Your post needs to add this: Logical Fallacy Alert ! ! !
The logical fallacy, appeal to tradition, is clearly at work in your post. Just because World War II determined much of the research on Uranium-based nuclear technology because some of the ancillary equipment can be used to make bombs does not mean that Thorium cycle nuclear energy is less effective or less important. Just because there isn't a finished LFTR in operation does not mean that the technology is somehow mysterious or impossible. You want a link?
... fluid fuels are not subjected to the structural stresses of solid fuels: liquid-fuel reactors can operate at atmospheric pressure, obviating the need for containment vessels able to withstand high-pressure steam explosions. Gaseous fission products like xenon bubble out while some fission products precipitate out and so do not absorb neutrons from the chain reaction. Like PWRs, liquid-fuel reactors can be configured to breed more fuel, but in ways that make them more proliferation resistant than the waste generated by conventional PWRs. Spent PWR fuel contains transuranic nuclides such as Pu-239, bred by neutron absorption in U-238, and it is such long-lived transuranics that are a core issue in waste storage concerns. In contrast, liquid-fuel reactors have the potential to reduce storage concerns to a few hundred years as they would produce far fewer transuranic nuclides than a PWR.

History of liquid fuel reactors

The world’s first liquid fuel reactor used uranium sulfate fuel dissolved in water. Eugene Wigner conceived this technology in 1945, Alvin Weinberg built it at Oak Ridge, and Enrico Fermi started it up. The water carries the fuel, moderates neutrons (slows them to take advantage of the high fission cross-section of uranium for thermal-energy neutrons), transfers heat, and expands as the temperature increases, thus lowering moderation and stabilizing the fission rate. Because the hydrogen in ordinary water absorbs neutrons, an aqueous reactor, like a PWR, cannot reach criticality unless fueled with uranium enriched beyond the natural 0.7% isotopic abundance of U-235. Deuterium absorbs few neutrons, so, with heavy water, aqueous reactors can use unenriched uranium. Weinberg’s aqueous reactor fed 140 kW of power into the electric grid for 1000 hours. The intrinsic reactivity control was so effective that shutdown was accomplished simply by turning off the steam turbine generator.

In 1943, Wigner and Weinberg also conceived a liquid fuel thorium-uranium breeder reactor, for which the aqueous reactor discussed above was but the first step. The fundamental premise in such a reactor is that a blanket of thorium Th-232 surrounding the fissile core will absorb neutrons, with some nuclei thus being converted (“transmuted”) to Th-233. Th-233, in turn, beta decays to protactinium-233 and then to U-233, which is itself fissile and can be used to refuel the reactor. Later, as Director of Oak Ridge, Weinberg led the development of the liquid fluoride thorium reactor (LFTR), the subject of this article. Aware of the future effect of carbon dioxide emissions, Weinberg wrote “humankind’s whole future depended on this.” The Molten Salt Reactor Experiment, powered first with U-235 and then U-233, operated successfully over 4 years, through 1969. To facilitate engineering tests, the thorium blanket was not installed; the U-233 used in the core came from other reactors breeding Th-232. The MSRE was a proof-of-principle success. Fission-product xenon gas was continually removed to prevent unwanted neutron absorptions, online refueling was demonstrated, minor corrosion of the reactor vessel was addressed, and chemistry protocols for separation of thorium, uranium, and fission products in the fluid fluorine salts were developed. Unfortunately, the Oak Ridge work was stopped when the Nixon administration decided instead to fund only the solid fuel Liquid sodium Metal cooled Fast Breeder Reactor (LMFBR), which could breed plutonium-239 faster than the LFTR could breed uranium-233.

The Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactor

A significant advantage of using thorium to breed U-233 is that relatively little plutonium is produced from the Th-232 because six more neutron absorptions are required than is the case with U-238. The U-233 that is bred is also proliferation-resistant in that the neutrons that produce it also produce 0.13% contaminating U-232 which decays eventually to thallium, which itself emits a 2.6 MeV penetrating gamma radiation that would be obvious to detection monitors and hazardous to weapons builders. For example, a year after U-233 separation, a weapons worker one meter from a subcritical 5 kg sphere of it would receive a radiation dose of 4,200 mrem/hr; death becomes probable after 72 hours exposure. Normally the reactor shielding protects workers, but modifying the reactor to separate U-233 would require somehow adding hot cells and remote handling equipment to the reactor and also to facilities for weapons fabrication, transport, and delivery. Attempting to build U-233-based nuclear weapons by modifying a LFTR would be more hazardous, technically challenging and expensive than creating a purpose-built weapons program using uranium enrichment (Pakistan) or plutonium breeding (India, North Korea).

http://energyfromthorium.com/


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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. You do realize you are quoting from people trying to make money on thorium, right?
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. People make money off of Coal, gasoline, pesticides, plastics containing BPA, etc., etc., etc.
So? Where's the argument there?
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. Probably does but won't admit it
actually
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. You think Kirk Sorenson wants to "make money from thorium"?
Do you know who Kirk Sorenson is or what he does for a living?
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. You mean the one hawking thorium reactors
or the one who wants to save your soul?

At present thorium reactors are but a theory
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #69
74. Yes, but I am having a hard time seeing how it's going to make him money.
More money than he would get otherwise. It's like bashing people for wind because it makes them money.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. No harm done
if we can have fun and learn at the same time we all win. :hi:
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #59
67. ???
wtf?
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #54
60. Where are they being developed now?
Work on thorium-based reactors is currently being actively pursued in many countries including Germany, India, China, and Canada; India plans to produce 30% of its electricity from thorium by 2050. But all these investigations involve solid fuel forms. Our interest here is with the liquid-fueled form of a thorium-based U-233 breeder reactor.

The configuration of a LFTR is shown schematically in Figure 2. In a “two-fluid” LFTR a molten eutectic mixture of salts such as LiF and BeF2 containing dissolved UF4 forms the central fissile core. (“Eutectic” refers to a compound that solidifies at a lower temperature than any other compound of the same chemicals.) A separate annular region containing molten Li and Be fluoride salts with dissolved ThF4 forms the fertile blanket. Fission of U-233 (or some other “starter” fissile fuel) dissolved in the fluid core heats it. This heated fissile fluid attains a noncritical geometry as it is pumped through small passages inside a heat exchanger. Excess neutrons are absorbed by Th-232 in the molten salt blanket, breeding U-233 which is continuously removed with fluorine gas and used to refuel the core. Fission products are chemically removed in the waste separator, leaving uranium and transuranics in the molten salt fuel. From the heat exchanger a separate circuit of molten salt heats gases in the closed cycle helium gas turbine which generates power. All three molten salt circuits are at atmospheric pressure.

http://energyfromthorium.com/
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. Sounds like more pie in the sky thinking to me
circa 2050

so in other words there is no working models
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #64
70. Again with the Appeal to Tradition -- you forget your history my friend
There are no gigawatt solar power plants. Are they impossible? No.
SEPTEMBER 8, 2009, 12:26 PM ET
First Solar To Build 2-Gigawatt Solar Power Plant in China
By Keith Johnson, Cassandra Sweet contributed to this post.

Solar-panel maker First Solar is cracking open the Chinese market, which could become one of the world’s most promising for solar power.

Arizona-based First Solar said today it signed a deal with Chinese officials to build a 2,000 megawatt solar-power plant in Inner Mongolia over the next decade at an estimated cost of $5 billion to $6 billion.

UPDATE: That figure is apparently what it would cost to build a similar plant in the U.S. today; building a large plant in China in the future would likely cost less, due to labor costs especially, say First Solar spokesmen.

For First Solar, which already has contracts to build smaller, though still utility-size, solar-power plants in the U.S., the Chinese deal could be a game-changer. “If you have two gigawatts, it could change the image of solar power from niche to nuclear-plant-size installations,” said First Solar chief executive Mike Ahearn in an interview.

http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalcapital/2009/09/08/first-solar-to-build-2-gigawatt-solar-power-plant-in-china/

...and...
Currently, the world’s largest operational solar power plant is the 80MW Sarnia Solar Project completed last month in Canada. No sooner had it commenced operation than a 1GW plant known as the Blythe Solar Power Project received approval to be built in California. The U.S. plant is expected to take six years to complete and won't generate as much power as the proposed 2GW plant planned for China, but the South African government hopes its Solar Park will be generating 1GW as early as 2012 and a total of 5GW by 2020.

Last week more than 400 potential investors and solar energy experts gathered at the two-day Solar Park Investors Conference held in the small town of Upington where the park is to be built to learn more about the project. The site is seen as ideal for a solar park as it hardly ever rains, rarely has clouds, and doesn’t have sandstorms. The park carries an estimated price tag of 150 billion Rand (approx. US$22 billion), most of which would be provided by private investors.

http://www.gizmag.com/south-african-5gw-solar-plant/16839/


There are no space-based solar power plants. Are they impossible? No. (In fact, PG&E has ordered one already)

Space Based Solar Power Satellite Program from PG&E and Solaren in California

Now PG&E in California, is planning to take their ability to tap renewable energy to a whole new level: solar power in space.“Solaren says it plans to generate the power using solar panels in earth orbit, then convert it to radio frequency energy for transmission to a receiving station in Fresno County. From there, the energy will be converted to electricity and fed into PG&E’s power grid.” ~ Next100.com

Solaren hopes to begin launching before 2016. The satellites will deploy the solar panels so they dock automatically together in orbit, resulting in an orbital power plant weighing roughly 25 tons if back here on Earth.

The advantages of space solar power include:
  • energy that can be harnessed at all times, even at night or when it’s cloudy.
  • baseload power delivery that makes efficient electricity possible for meeting customer demand.
  • an underlying technology that is mature since it is based on communications satellite technology.


http://cleantechnica.com/2009/04/18/space-based-solar-power-satellite-program-from-pge-and-solaren/
... ... ... ... ... ... ...
for more info also see:

PG&E makes deal for space solar power

Utility to buy orbit-generated electricity from Solaren in 2016, at no risk
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30198977/ns/technology_and_science-space/

California gives green light for space-based solar

California regulators on Thursday approved an ambitious project to beam solar energy from space starting in 2016.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-10408897-54.html#ixzz1AghArBsb


There are no electric cars that can drive 200 miles before recharging. Are they... Oh, there is the Tesla Roadster -- another impossible thing that just became possible as soon as someone did it.

People said that putting a man on the moon and returning him *safely* to Earth was impossible -- until America did it.

My wife had surgery last year using robotic technology that would have been deemed impossible just 5 years ago. Now it's possible.

To paraphrase:

There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy

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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. You went there
"There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy." You see there is no heaven

good day, have fun :rofl:

as I said this is only theory.

fusion is only a few decades away too remember :shaking head:
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #71
75. Hold onto your hat: I agree with you about fusion
Fusion is always "only 50 years away" and that was a source of constant frustration for me when I was younger. Now that I'm turning 50 fusion is still only 50 years away.

Thorium cycle power plants, however, have been well understood for decades.

I guess Coal Capture and Storage is only a theory also? They have no working plants because the coal industry closed it down a few years ago. Your point is just plain silly.

And by the way, I was quoting Shakespeare so take it up with him.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. You're a good sport
Have a good evening. :hi:
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #4
20. "There are NO fission products which are not valuable" - what horseshit
That's why Ronald Reagan took commercial spent fuel from the folks that produced it and gave to the taxpayers.

It was so valuable to nuclear plant operators and shit...

:rofl:
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TheMadMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-11 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #20
39. One of the biggest parts of commercial fuel waste is plutonium.
Plutonium is eminently burnable as a fuel, but for mostly political reasons its use in nuclear fuels is so highly restricted, that it accumuates as waste in the form of spent fuel rods, far faster than it is reprocessed and "burnt".

Burning the plutonium alone would reduce storage requirements hugely both in space needed, and the time span over which storage facilities would have to remain intact. It would also negate the need for a considerable amount of mining for fresh fuel.

Another large part of the problem again comes back to the lack of reprocesssing. Spent fuel IS an unholy mishmash of some very nasty materials. There is no denying this. However, separated, most of the materials present in reactor waste, have considerable value and/or utility.

If we could convince idiots not to take to them with cutting tools, for lulz, for profit or for Alah, the number of potential commercial and consumer applications for RTGs is enormous. Subtract medically and industrially useful isotopes and there's fuck all left really. Little enough to be glassified and dropped into an active subduction zone without concern.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. And if a frog had wings it wouldn't bump its bum.
Edited on Sun Jan-09-11 12:21 AM by kristopher
You wrote, "If we could convince idiots not to take to them with cutting tools, for lulz, for profit or for Alah... ".

Three things:
1) Proliferation of nuclear weapons isn't a "political" reason, it is an existential reason.
2) Your characterization of what is left after reprocessing is completely misleading.
3) Misinformation such as you are pushing is one of the reasons people do not trust the nuclear power industry.

PS It's Allah, not Alah.
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TheMadMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. If we fail to grow up at least this much as a people, we might as well party...
...like there's no tomorrow, because there bloody well won't be. Yup you're right. Existential it is. But we still need to grow up enough for it to stop being a reason.

BTW: I note that your solutions require that people not only agree not to shit on each other's plates, but actively cooperate on so many levels that it boggles the mind. What safeguards do you propose to prevent rampant cheating? What about predatory pricing: When there's a week without wind in Oklahoma? Or too many years of drought in a hydro catchment? Soviet Communism ain't enough for that mate. You my friend are asking for the dyed in the wool real deal between American CORPORATIONS.

And YOU reckon I'M reaching?



2) Not if a substantial proportion of the fuel is burnt in fast neutron reactors. As is the case in China. If you insist on exiting US state of the Ark nuclear being both baseline and best practice, then YOU my friend better base YOUR numbers on using steel magnets in your motors and generators and selinium solar cells. And if you ask nicely I might allow you fibreglass and resin for your turbines, rather than all metal construction.

The means exist RIGHT NOW to reduce nuclear waste to easily managable volumes. Less than a handful of tons of short lived material per reactor per year. Packaged in waste canisters, that amounts to less than a pickup truckload per day.


3)Um, point to exactly where I've provided misinformation. Saftey record:- demonstrably streets ahead of coal in both actual operations and indirect deaths in the community. Multiple paths to waste incineration have been demonstrated without any discernible (ecconomic or technological) hinderances to their being scaled to any necessary level.

BTW: One of those paths can be turned to the making of a nuclear reactor that could concievably shrunk to a package small enough for a motor car, and certainly for a prime mover or individual railcars that could autonomously join and leave moving trains in any position. Of course it could also be turned to putting a plutonium factory into a shipping container. Which brings us back to us "Growing up". We better do it, because that trailable plutonium factory is either coming very soon, or is already a working concern in a DoD workshop. Just knowing something CAN be done is half the journey or more. China will soon be doing it, India too. And more than likely onselling the technology once developed.

The price of sequencing a genome today is one one hundred thousandth that of the first successful attempt and about to drop by another factor of 10 in price. The first 5 MB computer hard disk for consumers cost about $1000. The same capacity now costs less than 1/10th of a cent.

Nuclear technology may not be advancing at that heady rate, but advance it does, despite the hinderances of the United States. Sooner or later, nuclear technology WILL reach a price point where it will become impossible to keep it out of "wrong" hands. Ultimately there is no obvious technological impediment but human will to a basement nuclear reactor available at a price comparable to that of a family saloon.


A nuclear backbone can support an enormous amount of alternative energy production technologies. Only through massive reengineering, overengineering AND strict regulation and enforcement can those alternatives operate without a supporting backbone of some variety.

Strikes me that the surest path to you having your way (or at least a reasonable part thereof) is to embrace nuclear technology as a part of a holistic sollution. With a solid clean (at least ish) base generation capacity, we can redevelop a lot of production technologies around the intermittent nature of most renewables. Directing them towards portable fuels and industries that can operate intermittently.

My way PLUS your way, most of what we BOTH want more or less naturally emerges, even is some of the players choose to behave selfishly. Your way alone, one middle sized player in the right place could conceivably threaten to bring down huge segments of a continental grid simply by disconnecting at the right/wrong moment. "My way" alone it seems is an invitation to eternal conflict.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #39
47. That's why Nuclear Fuel Services - the only commercial US spent fuel reprcessor - went bankrupt
Edited on Sun Jan-09-11 10:49 AM by jpak
it produced only $20 million worth of reprocessed plutonium.

US taxpayers will sped $4-8 billion to clean-up the mess they left.

Commercial spent fuel processing of "valuable" plutonium = commercial failure + taxpayer burden

yup!

:rofl:
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #4
21. "There are NO fission products which are not valuable" - what horseshit
Yeah, that's why Ronald Reagan took spent fuel off the hands of nuclear plant operators and gave it to US taxpayers to deal with....

Cuz it was so valuable and shit...

:rofl:
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #4
45. Speaking of Thorium as a substitute for Uranium fuel in existing nuclear reactors
1. It makes the reactor unable to be used as a source material for nuclear weapons
2. Thorium is not only 3 times as abundant as Uranium but it puts out more energy per kg

Here is a short interview with some Capitalist who sells Thorium-based fuel rods that are a plug-in replacement/substitute for the Uranium fuel current reactors use:
April 13 (Bloomberg) -- Seth Grae, chief executive officer of Lightbridge Corp., talks with Bloomberg's Margaret Brennan about the use of thorium as an alternative to uranium for powering nuclear reactors.

See the video at: http://www.bloomberg.com/video/58837544/

Also discussed in the video is using nuclear power plants to destroy nuclear weapons material by using it as fuel, etc.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. Thorium doesn't eliminate the issue of proliferation.
Edited on Mon Jan-10-11 04:39 PM by kristopher
No reputable scientist makes the claim that thorium eliminates the risk of proliferation; it only makes it more difficult. And you may want to find out why it ISN'T being used/recommended even though the concept has been operational for decades.

The problems associated with nuclear are all solvable, unfortunately the each of the problems are achieved with different designs. Cost, wastes, safety and proliferation are a set of issues that cause any nuclear discussion to move in a circle from Gen3 (least cost/unfinancable) to reprocessing (reduces waste but high cost) to thorium (reduces proliferation risk/high cost) and back again to Gen3.
For example:
From: "New" Nuclear Reactors, Same Old Story
By Amory B. Lovins

...IFRs' wastes may contain less transuranics, but at prohibitive cost and with worse occupational exposures, routine releases, accident and terrorism risks, proliferation, and disposal needs for intermediate- and low-level wastes. It's simply a dishonest fantasy to claim, as a Wall Street Journal op-ed just did,8 that such hypothetical and uneconomic ways to recover energy or other value from spent LWR fuel mean “There is no such thing as nuclear waste.” Of course, the nuclear industry wishes this were true.

No new kind of reactor is likely to be much, if at all, cheaper than today's LWRs, which remain grossly uncompetitive and are getting more so despite five decades of maturation.

“New reactors” are precisely the “paper reactors” Admiral Rickover described in 1953:

An academic reactor or reactor plant almost always has the following basic characteristics:
(1) It is simple.
(2) It is small.
(3) It is cheap.
(4) It is light.
(5) It can be built very quickly.
(6) It is very flexible in purpose.
(7) Very little development will be required. It will use off the shelf components.
(8) The reactor is in the study phase. It is not being built now.

On the other hand a practical reactor can be distinguished by the following characteristics:
(1) It is being built now.
(2) It is behind schedule.
(3) It requires an immense amount of development on apparently trivial items.
(4) It is very expensive.
(5) It takes a long time to build because of its engineering development problems.
(6) It is large.
(7) It is heavy.
(8) It is complicated.

Every new type of reactor in history has been costlier, slower, and harder than projected. IFRs’ low pressure, different safety profile, high temperature, and potentially higher thermal efficiency (if its helium turbines didn’t misbehave as they have in all previous reactor projects) come with countervailing disadvantages and costs that advocates assume away, contrary to all experience.

Thorium reactors
Some enthusiasts prefer fueling reactors with thorium—an element 3× as abundant as uranium but even more uneconomic to use. India has for decades failed to commercialize breeder reactors to exploit its thorium deposits.

But thorium can’t fuel a reactor by itself: rather, a uranium- or plutonium-fueled reactor can convert thorium-232 into fissionable (and plutonium-like, highly bomb-usable) uranium-233. Thorium’s proliferation,9 waste, safety, and cost problems differ only in detail from uranium’s: e.g., thorium ore makes less mill waste, but highly radioactive U-232 makes fabricating or reprocessing U-233 fuel hard and costly. And with uranium-based nuclear power continuing its decades-long economic collapse, it’s awfully late to be thinking of developing a whole new fuel cycle whose problems differ only in detail from current versions.

Spent LWR fuel “burned” in IFRs, it’s claimed, could meet all humanity’s energy needs for centuries. But renewables and efficiency can do that forever at far lower cost, with no proliferation, nuclear wastes, or major risks.10 Moreover, any new type of reactor would probably cost even more than today’s models: even if the nuclear part of a new plant were free, the rest—two-thirds of its capital cost—would still be grossly uncompetitive with any efficiency and most renewables, sending out a kilowatt-hour for ~9–13¢/kWh instead of new LWRs’ ~12–18+¢. In contrast, the average U.S. windfarm completed in 2007 sold its power (net of a 1¢/kWh subsidy that’s a small fraction of nuclear subsidies) for 4.5¢/kWh. Add ~0.4¢ to make it dispatchable whether the wind is blowing or not and you’re still under a nickel delivered to the grid.
Most other renewables also beat new thermal power plants too, cogeneration is often comparable or cheaper, and efficiency is cheaper than just running any nuclear- or fossil-fueled plant. Obviously these options would also easily beat proposed fusion reactors that are sometimes claimed to be comparable to today’s fission reactors in size and cost. And unlike any kind of hypothetical fusion or new fission reactor—or LWRs, which have a market share below 2%—efficiency and micropower now provide at least half the world’s new electrical services, adding tens of times more capacity each year than nuclear power does. It’s a far bigger gamble to assume that the nuclear market loser will become a winner than that these winners will turn into losers.


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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. duplicate post delete
Edited on Mon Jan-10-11 06:33 PM by txlibdem
self delete
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. Your argument just doesn't hold water in the real world
Can anyone ever ensure 100% that any technology can never be used for destructive purposes? No. The fact is that any technology known to man can be made into a weapon by someone insane enough, devious enough, and given enough money and time.

Your hyperventilation and scare mongering won't change the facts. The technology that makes nuclear bomb material is completely separate from nuclear power reactors and can be used without ever having access to spent fuel from a reactor. I've explained that to you before yet you carry on with your hand waving and frothing at the mouth as if you didn't hear (ok, read) it.

That is why I call you "Kris the Koal Man" because you constantly snipe at any and all zero carbon energy sources. Guess what? Without a large increase in the number of nuclear power plants in America we will be stuck with coal till well beyond 2050. On the other hand, if we build another 100 nuclear power plants while simultaneously undertaking a rapid expansion of solar PV, Concentrated Solar Thermal, and Wind all across the country (starting in the places where it makes the most sense first) then we can shut down all coal plants and natural gas plants well before 2050.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. Yes it does.
Edited on Mon Jan-10-11 07:30 PM by kristopher
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=269990&mesg_id=270525

You also have no basis for saying that I "snipe at any and all zero carbon energy sources". The ONLY low carbon energy sources I reject are coalCCS and nuclear. You seem to be setting yourself up as an "environmentalist" that supports nuclear. That is only possible if you reject the external costs of nuclear and its effect on rolling out a renewable, distributed energy grid; an act that by itself disproves your appeal to environmentalism.

I've noticed that you are incapable of actually backing up your support for nuclear power and prefer instead to either run from such discussion or go directly to false attempts to smear me like the one I'm now responding to.

Nuclear is a third rate solution to climate change and no public funds should be used to support it. ALL public treasury funds used for energy should go to either energy efficiency or renewable power.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #57
66. No it doesn't
I've noticed that you like to link to an entire discussion thread, as if that somehow will support your argument. Your second favorite, which you have done yet again, is to link to one of your posts in the current discussion as if that is irrefutable evidence of your correctness instead of just you again saying the same tired old wrong stuff. Say it a thousand times if you like. It still doesn't make it true.

Here's a taste of your own tactic. For proof that I am right, see: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=269990&mesg_id=270468

I've noticed that when you are proven wrong you go on the attack and attempt to smear an "opponent," obfuscate, change the subject, and pull "facts" out of thin air.

There is no convincing you of just how wrong you are. I don't know why (stubborn, fanatical, closed minded, think you are infallible and know it all, etc.) but I gave up long ago. I only reply to your posts for the benefit of other readers who may be taken in by the simple answer you offer: Uggh, nuclear bad -- coal good.
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Mark Maker Donating Member (168 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Eventually there will be no "waste"
Years from now we will be cracking open the casks, no matter how deep we bury them, and extracting the so called waste materials to further produce energy. Recall that early petroleum production burned off gasoline and natural gas as waste product that today are used. Not to mention the carloads of sulphur that are now used in many industrial processes.

BEIJING — Chinese scientists have mastered the technology for reprocessing fuel from nuclear power plants, potentially boosting the supplies of carbon-free electricity to keep the country's economy booming, state television reported Monday.

The breakthrough will extend by many times the amount of power that can be generated from China's nuclear plants as fissile and fertile materials are recovered to be new fuel, CCTV said.

Several European countries, Russia, India and Japan already reprocess nuclear fuel – the actual materials used to make nuclear energy – to separate and recover the unused uranium and plutonium, reduce waste and safely close the nuclear cycle.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/03/china-nuclear-fuel-reproc_n_803522.html
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. Ummm the volume of high level waste increases with reprocessing
PUREX much?

nope

:rofl:
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
55. Ha! Where did you get that tidbit of wisdom?
Why don't you provide any proof, a link, that proves your false assertion? Oh, right. Because it's only true in your fevered mind.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. In other words it doesn't jib with what you've been saying
so it has to be wrong, right?
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. In other words, just saying something doesn't make it true
Where is the proof? Where did they get that information? Might as well say that dangerous nuclear material comes from Voodoo ! ! !
(oooh, that's scary too) :scared:
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. BOO
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #65
72. thanks for the laugh
this discussion really needed it.
:hi:
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. Peace
:hi:
Do you still love me though? ;-)
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-11 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #3
33. Hah! Thats funny. " Peak Nuclear"

You can use natural uranium and thorium to generate power. That's enough to last thousands of years.
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saras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
5. Looks like they're working on their population problem
Given the way they build stuff like this.

Of course, the other option is the 'unreasonably paranoid' belief that they deliberately build crappy stuff for Americans while shipping the better quality stuff elsewhere... because if they're building clean, safe nuclear plants, they've mastered a bunch of skills no one else in the world has mastered yet.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Their reactors are some of the best performers in the world.
They are building their reactors in earnest, and they know more about reactor construction than we do.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. LOL - Chinese Drywall.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Well the Chevy Vega had very little to do with the Voyager space craft.
Chinese nuclear science is extremely advanced. One need only to read scientific publications coming out of China to appreciate this fact.

You may be laughing, but the time is rapidly coming that we, and not they, will be the provinces.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. True, but my guess is they knew how to make drywall properly but chose to skim money.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. Well then, I guess all Chinese look alike then, eh?
Thanks for that fine consideration for 4,000 years of Chinese culture, and that sterling lack of bigotry.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Corruption has nothing to do with race.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-11 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. Thanks for sharing.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #8
19. Yeah, those Chinese suck at everything
And when it comes to large construction projects that last, they are completely inept...

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AdHocSolver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 03:33 AM
Response to Original message
12. China is going nuclear, not because it is good technology, but because it is profitable.
In ten years, the cost of oil is going to become very expensive, raising the cost of coal with it.

At the same time, technological advances will reduce the cost of wind and solar power. Another advantage of wind and solar power is that power generation can be distributed geographically saving huge amounts of money, as the infrastructure such as power lines needed to distribute centrally generated electrical power will not be needed.

Separated electric power grids will be good from the standpoint that, if one section of the grid goes down, it cannot take other parts of the grid with it, as in brownouts and blackouts.

The billions in profits going to build these nuclear plants comes from the profits that they made selling Americans their drywall and other junk. The Chinese leaders are consummate capitalists who have decided to spend their money in ways to make more profit rather than use it to buy U.S. T-Bills, which may never be paid back. With our huge trade debt and high unemployment, they have probably already written our debt off.

The Chinese capitalist leaders are doing what the U.S. capitalist leaders want to do: Sink a lot of money into centralized power generation to maintain their control of the Chinese economy. The Chinese leaders aren't building nuclear power plants because it is clean. If they really cared about the environment, they could do a lot to clean up their current pollution without building nuclear power plants.

Calling nuclear power safe, clean, and cheap is a huge oxymoron.

The Chinese capitalists will cut corners on nuclear power just as they cut corners on everything else. The Chinese buying reactor technology from Russia (after Chernobyl) is your first clue.
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miyazaki Donating Member (446 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. Well you got one thing right, yes, they are gonna make a profit, when
they are selling their reactors to the USA because we fucked ourselves in the ass.

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-11 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Um, maybe, they'll have export controls. It may be hard for them to generate empathy for
third world countries.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-11 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #12
29. China is hedging on all power sources, they're being intelligent, they're building wind...
...where there's wind. They're building hydro where it's logical to build hydro. They're building solar where it's logical to build solar.

And they're building nuclear where it's logical to build nuclear.

No brainer.

But they're also building a lot of coal, nuclear exists to fill out the baseload and to give them a future with fast neutron reactors in the next 50 years. They're thinking long term, and the long term eventuality is that China will be mostly nuclear and hydro.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #29
48. A lot of truth to your post, also for every new nuclear power plant
China mandates that the oldest (and least efficient) coal power plant be shut down.

This is what happens when you have a plan and stick to it. Not so for us here in America: the free market has no plan and without intelligent political leaders there is nothing to force them to do the right thing.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. They're also pioneering liquefied/gassified coal, which is a bit cleaner than regular coal...
...so there's a bit of solace. It will have little overall impact on their emissions, though.
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