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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 03:50 PM
Original message
Department of Energy Sunshot Initiative
The DOE SunShot Initiative is a collaborative national initiative to make solar energy technologies cost-competitive with other forms of energy by reducing the cost of solar energy systems by about 75% before 2020. Reducing the total installed cost for utility-scale solar electricity to roughly 6 cents per kilowatt hour without subsidies will result in rapid, large-scale adoption of solar electricity across the United States. Reaching this goal will re-establish American technological leadership, improve the nation's energy security, and strengthen U.S. economic competitiveness in the global clean energy race.

Great website:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/solar/sunshot/
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. They need to "Drive the Technology" not "Buy the Project"
Shit - there still isn't any better efficiency then 15% in photovoltaic

BTW: Spare me the inflated "Bull Shit" sales literature - your own link quoted achieved efficiency of 10%
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. ROFLMAO
Edited on Sun Jun-12-11 04:27 PM by kristopher
"Reducing the total installed cost for utility-scale solar electricity to roughly 6 cents per kilowatt hour without subsidies will result in rapid, large-scale adoption of solar electricity across the United States. Reaching this goal will re-establish American technological leadership, improve the nation's energy security, and strengthen U.S. economic competitiveness in the global clean energy race."


That just torqued your jaws, didn't it?

Now, compare it to this:
California Energy Commission shows new nuke electric $0.17-0.34kwh

What is that, 3X to 6X without the cost of nuclear liability factored in?

California Energy Commission shows new nuke electric $0.17-0.34kwh + up to $3.40kwh for insurance

...The detailed study considered three forms of ownership: merchant plant, investor-owned utility, and publicly owned utility. Merchant plants are built to serve deregulated markets and assume a high degree of market risk. They may not be able to sell all their electricity at any one time if their price is too high. Investor-owned utilities are the traditional private companies serving a regulated market. In California, Pacific Gas & Electric and Southern California Edison are investor-owned. Publicly owned utilities are municipal utilities, like SMUD. Publicly owned utilities pay fewer taxes and have access to lower cost financing than either investor-owned utilities or merchant plants.

The CEC's 186-page report, "Comparative Costs of California Central Station Electricity Generation" , found that a 1,000-megawatt pressurized water reactor would generate electricity in 2018 from as little as $0.17 per kilowatt-hour to as much as $0.34 per kilowatt-hour. These results are startling: Most renewable technologies today, even solar photovoltaics (PV), generate electricity for less than that. Only a municipal utility could generate nuclear electricity for less than the cost of solar PV.

Currently, Germany pays between $0.31 and $0.41 per kilowatt-hour for electricity from solar PV, which means that the cost of solar-generated electricity today is equivalent to the cost estimated by the CEC for a nuclear plant beginning operation in 2018. And all observers, even critics, expect the cost of solar PV to continue declining during the next decade.

And what about insurance?

In an unrelated study for the German Renewable Energy Association, consultants found that nuclear reactors are effectively uninsurable. The 157-page report by Versicherungsforen Leipzig estimated that the premium necessary to insure a nuclear reactor from accident would cost from $0.20 per kilowatt-hour to a staggering $3.40 per kilowatt-hour...


http://www.grist.org/nuclear/2011-06-04-nuclear-power-is-expensive-and-uninsurable
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. $0.31 and $0.41 per Kw/hr for solar = 4 Times the COST
Edited on Sun Jun-12-11 10:21 PM by FreakinDJ
from your own link Smart Guy

Which ever box of Cracker Jacks you got that Degree out of - you need to ask for your money back

Solar power in Germany has been growing considerably due to the country's feed-in tariff which was introduced by the German Renewable Energy Act. The FiT costs 1 billion euros per month to subsidize new solar installations and the cost is spread across all rate-payers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Germany


Your arguments don't hold up so well when your dealing with folks who can read
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Solarshot, China, solar-cost-declining, nuclear-expensive, Fukushima, nuclear-cost-increasing
post-Fukushima 2020
Nuclear with insurance $3.99/kwh
Nuclear without insurance $0.40
Utility scale solar $0.07/kwh

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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. No solar can produce .07 / Kw
Do you have any thing even remotely resembling a scientific study that can substantiate your claims of .07 Kw / PV electricity.

Spreading misinformation undermines your pet cause here
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #11
41. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's about right for some forms of Concentrating solar, but
that seems a little low for straight up PV. But lets see what he has.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. "6 cents per kilowatt hour without subsidies"
That was quoted right in the OP.
Your arguments don't hold up so well when your dealing with folks who can read!
:rofl:

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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Hopeful OPINION piece vs: Hard Science - No PV can produce .06 Kw
Edited on Mon Jun-13-11 08:35 AM by FreakinDJ
At this time

The DOE SunShot Initiative is a collaborative national initiative to make solar energy technologies cost-competitive with other forms of energy by reducing the cost of solar energy systems by about 75% before 2020.


Currently they are subsidizing INSTALLATIONS of existing technology of PV which produce $0.40 Kw electricity rather then FUNDING research.



It pays to read carefully
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. We don't need more govt funded research, we need solar manufacturing plants.
There is a direct link between the growth of the manufacturing base, and cost reductions. We are already at least a decade ahead of where we were expected to be only 8 years ago in manufacturing, which is due entirely to China's focus on solar since 2007. Note the abrupt change in the angle of the slope at that time.



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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Ya - more $0.43 per Kw plants - like that will ever fly
Edited on Mon Jun-13-11 10:44 AM by FreakinDJ
You sound too much like a PAID SHILL for China's Photovoltaic industry to take seriously
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. I think we've both expressed our thoughts, others can determine what to believe.
Edited on Mon Jun-13-11 10:55 AM by kristopher
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
39. Economics of scale.
The Navy experiences this with the Virginia class SSN. They are currently building one per year but if they were to build two per year, then the unit cost would drop.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #2
40. That's spectacular, but joe home user like myself needs a little help with the capital outlay.
I swear, if in 22 years when I have to replace my roofing tiles, if I have to do it with something that doesn't generate solar power on the spot for a reasonable cost, I'm going to punch myself in the groin.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
3. Cost per kilowatt hour is the only factor I consider
I don't care if a solar farm is 5% efficient or 95% efficient, just as long as the cost per kilowatt hour is competitive. Yes, it's great to improve the efficiency but that is, for me, a distant third behind getting the cost per kWh down and making energy storage as cheap and reliable as possible.

We will never end the death toll from fossil fuels without a nationwide energy storage system that will allow solar, wind and the other intermittent renewables to play a big enough part in the energy picture.

Of course, geothermal power plants are 24/7/365 so they need no energy storage. We just need to build a large number of them to fill in any gaps in our energy supply.
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Look at your Electricity Bill - Now times it by a factor of 5
sure you say that now but if you were paying upwards of $500 - 750 per month in electricity for a 2 bedroom apt. you might think differently as would 99.9% of the citizens of this country. Not to mention the "Chilling Effect" it would have the economy

Your Heart is in the right place - but the path you've chosen to get there is too problematic to be an effective route.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. Using fossil fuels will destroy us -- we must end fossil fuels ASAP
I'm not entirely sure of the meaning of your post. If you mean to say that if the USA did as I suggest (switch to 100% renewable energy with energy storage adequate to ensure reliable 24/7/365 power) and we all use electric cars that my electric bill will go up then I'm ok with that. Our electric bills have been going up and up and up each and every year -- and what do we have to show for it except 1 million deaths worldwide from using coal power plants, untold millions dead or hospitalized because of using oil/gas/diesel, and lovely videos of innocent folks who can light the water coming out of their tap on fire thanks to natural gas fracking. Thank you but no thank you.

My wife spends about $200 in gasoline alone, our electric bill will be between $200 and $320 starting this month and going on until October, our natural gas bill will then be between $150 and $240 all winter. So we're already spending over $400/$500 a month. Do you think that $500 is going to scare me? Especially when I know that 1) all the jobs created will be right here in the USA and not a penny going to fund terrorists, 2) no child will be hospitalized because of pollution from a solar or wind power plant, and 3) I'll be able to sleep much more peacefully knowing that I'll be handing my child (and if she ever gives me any grand babies, hint hint!) a better world than the one I lived in.

And once we quit our addiction to oil, will our "leaders" still feel the need to spend our tax dollars protecting the oil shipping lanes (estimated at $50 billion each year for that alone)? I'm hoping the answer is no.
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Totally in favor of Renewables
I take offense with many of his posting because he has no means of implementing renewable energy other then wishful thinking and or massive subsidies.

To qualify - I worked as an Energy Management Engineer all through the 90s and repeatedly researched and crunched the numbers on every energy reducing, renewable energy producing scheme out there. Currently the numbers don't work for the economy as a whole. You have to add Large Scale Consumers (factories / industry) into the picture when you are trying to formulate National Policy. Folks who consume +20 Megawatt/hr. and have no fuel cost to offset with EVs. What is that going to do to their operating cost other then drive them to countries like China and India whom are building Nukes like it is going out of style.

But most discouraging is how close we are to a technological break through that will actually make some of these numbers work. At least for small scale consumers which would include 90% of the consumers out there. Again the current scheme of subsidies doesn't drive the technology in this area but rather relies on China's $2.00 / per day labor to produce "Yesterday's Technology Photovoltaic" at a cheap price

His heart is in the right place but he doesn't see the path to get where he wants to go
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. We do not need "a technological breakthrough"
Edited on Mon Jun-13-11 10:33 AM by kristopher
Current technology is able to get us moving and product development is the stage where competition driven research is most productive for future improvements.

Labor is very small part of the costs of solar panels. Far more important are policies that drive vertical integration within the sector.

My assertions are supported by this graph:


Your "high energy cost will drive manufacturing to China" is straight out of the rightwing anticlimate change play book.


IOW everything you've said about the technology is not correct.
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Thats is LYING - and if you actually had a degree as you proclaim
Edited on Mon Jun-13-11 10:58 AM by FreakinDJ
you would know that

"A dust layer of one-seventh of an ounce per square yard decreases solar power conversion by 40 percent," said Malay Mazumder, PhD


try stopping Mother Nature genius
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. I think we've both expressed our thoughts, others can determine what to believe.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #15
24. I, too, sometimes chide the poster for being more consistently pro-fossil fuels than renewables
...at the scale needed to make a dent in fossil use here in the US.

Solar PV has a way to go in order to be cost competitive with the (highly subsidized) coal power industry. Two things come to mind that will change that: 1) The cost of solar PV panels continue to decrease (First Solar thin film recently stated they can make their solar panels for 76 cents per Watt, a Swedish company shortly thereafter announced their breakthrough that will make thin film solar for 70 cent per Watt), or 2) the fossil industries should finally be made to pay the actual costs to society of their product, their pollution.

The interesting thing to note is that in the desert southwest Concentrating Solar Thermal power plants have been cost competitive with coal power plants for a while now. This is why I believe it's positively silly to invest in solar PV on a roof in New Jersey (where it will get at most 4 hours of sunlight--and will get fewer than 150 days of sunshine yearly) versus putting that same amount of funding into solar farms in the desert southwest (where they will get 7 or 8 hours of peak sunlight and over 300 days of sunshine per year). Even Denver gets 300 days of sunshine per year and would therefore be a wiser investment for solar power than any location in the north, northeast and southeast US.

Money is a serious limitation to ending our addiction to fossil fuels -- recently quoted is a statistic that still today the fossil industries get 10 times the subsidies than all renewables combined. I say end all subsidies and "favorable lack of environmental regulation" for fossil industries and redirect all those funds to renewable energy subsidies until they no longer need any and are lower in cost than the dirty, dangerous, poisonous fossil fuels. Right now the playing field is nowhere near level. Renewables are fighting an uphill battle against the fossil subsidies even today.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. What you attempt...
Is character assassination by accusing me of promoting the use of fossil fuels.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. You can only state that honestly if I cannot google the links where you state exactly that
Since those posts are out there, and in great numbers, I don't think you can claim character assassination.

Let me refresh your memory: wind energy needs no storage; natural gas plants will supply the power when the wind isn't blowing.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. You don't need to google anything.
My position (the same I've had since day one) is laid out in this thread. I also support what I say; a habit that is, again, evident in this thread.
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #24
34. So you understand no 1 remedy "Fits All" in this equation
The current policy lacks a unified goal the majority of Americans will endorse. "Cut Dependance of Foreign Fuel" period, end of subject.

We are starting to see EVs but the biggest limitation has been the "Big 3 Automakers" to do it with existing automotive plants and equipment. I even discussed this exact point with a PhD in Mechanical engineering who was involved in California's Fuel Cell project. They refused to abandon their uni-body pressing machinery and go to a lighter, stronger, more aerodynamic concept. Its always been about Power/Weight.

The SmartCar is a good start but just think if the Marketing folks coupled it with a photovoltaic array for the home and marketed it as "Fuel Free". They could have charged it directly from storage cells omitting the Inverter Loss and realized an even greater ROI. They could have provided an "Smart Grid Inverter" solely dedicated to selling excess power back to the utility (spin the meter backwards) for an even Greater ROI

Go 1 further and reduce the drag coefficient to 0.8



Federal Policy should mandate the States to come up with the own means achieving Foreign Fuel Independence through the means that best suits their particular location / geography. When you mandate the technology the R&D for a better product follows and the markets will sort it out. If PV become more efficient then coal no one will want to build them. Its not some Secret Plot by Corps as much as it is simple economics
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. No silver bullet inother words, correct
The first thing that must be done is to end all direct and indirect subsidies for fossil fuels. Concentrated Solar Thermal is already cost competitive with subsidized coal in certain areas. Doing away with all of the subsidies for coal, oil and natural gas will make Solar PV and wind competitive with coal.

Putting a price on CO2 pollution would provide the same benefit.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. OP: $0.06/kwh solar by 2020
Edited on Mon Jun-13-11 02:13 AM by kristopher
IPCC:


To bring clarity to your remarks on storage:
The fact that “the wind doesn’t always blow” is often used to suggest the need for dedicated energy storage to handle fluctuations in the generation of wind power. Such viewpoints, however, ignore the realities of both grid operation and the performance of a large, spatially diverse wind-generation resource. Historically, all other variation (for example, that due to system loads, generation-commitment and dispatch changes, and network topology changes) has been handled systemically. This is because the diversity of need leads to much lower costs when variability is aggregated before being balanced.

Storage is ... operated to maximize the economic benefit to an entire system. Storage is nearly always beneficial to the grid, but this benefit must be weighed against its cost. With more than 26 GW of wind power currently operating in the United States and more than 65 GW of wind energy operating in Europe (as of the date of this writing), no additional storage has been added to the systems to balance wind. Storage has value in a system without wind, which is the reason why about 20 GW of pumped hydro storage was built in the United States and 100 GW was built worldwide, decades before wind and solar energy were considered as viable electricity generation technologies. Additional wind could increase the value of energy storage in the grid as a whole, but storage would continue to provide its services to the grid—storing energy from a mix of sources and responding to variations in the net demand, not just wind.

As an example, consider Figure 7 below, which is based on a simplified example of a dispatch model that approximates the western United States. All numerical values are illustrative only, and the storage analysis is based on a hypothetical storage facility that is limited to 10% of the peak load and 168 hours of energy. The ability of the system to integrate large penetrations of wind depends heavily on the mix of other generation resources. Storage is an example of a flexible resource, and storage has economic value to the system even without any wind energy. As wind is added to the system in increasing amounts, the value of storage will increase. With no wind, storage has a value of more than US$1,000/kW, indicating that a storage device that costs less would provide economic value to the system. As wind penetration increases, so does the value of storage, eventually reaching approximately US$1,600/kW. In this example system, the generation mix is similar to what is found today in many parts of the United States. In such a system with high wind penetration, the value of storage is somewhat greater because the economic dispatch will result in putting low-variable-cost units (e.g., coal or nuclear) on the margin (and setting the market-clearing price) much more often than it would have without the wind. More frequent periods with lower prices offers a bigger price spread and more opportunities for arbitrage, increasing the value of storage.

In a system with less base load and more flexible generation, the value of storage is relatively insensitive to the wind penetration. Figure 8 shows that storage still has value with no wind on the system, but there is a very slight increase in the value of storage even at a wind-penetration rate of 40% (energy). An across-the-board decrease in market prices the incentives for a unit with high fixed costs and low variable costs (e.g., coal or nuclear) to be built in the first place. This means that in a high-wind future, fewer low-variable-cost units will be built. This reduces the amount of time that low-variable-cost units are on the margin and also reduces the value of storage relative to the “near-term” value with the same amount of wind.


Wind Power Myths Debunked
november/december 2009 IEEE power & energy magazine
Digital Object Identifier 10.1109/MPE.2009.934268
1540-7977/09/$26.00©2009 IEEE

By Michael Milligan, Kevin Porter, Edgar DeMeo, Paul Denholm, Hannele Holttinen, Brendan Kirby, Nicholas Miller, Andrew Mills, Mark O’Malley, Matthew Schuerger, and Lennart Soder

http://www.ieee-pes.org/images/pdf/open-access-milligan.pdf


Storage is just one more cog in the wheel. We won't build a new energy system without some flexible resources such as storage, biofuels, geothermal, wave, tidal; we won't build it without solar or wind; we won't build it without EVs, we won't build it without spending money on upgrading the grid.

But we will build it and it will work better and cost less than what we ahve now. It will also create far more GOOD employment than the current energy sector does.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Paraphrasing your link: We won't build a new energy system without storage
Milligan et.al. are correct. We will need storage, biofuels, geothermal, wave, tidal, solar and wind, and we will need electric vehicles (EVs). They are further correct in saying that significant money will need to be spent on upgrading the grid.

As to your first link, it seems to be attempting to claim that Europe has no (or needs no) renewable energy storage where nothing could be further from the truth. The UK alone has 2.3 GW of pumped hydro with a 5-hour storage time, after which 1.6 GW of pumped hydro has enough energy storage for a total of 23 hours. And they are planning on adding much more storage in years to come.

The UK and Europe are not trying to fool themselves into thinking they need no storage. Why should we?

Since your post is saying two separate things, I both congratulate you on seeing the light (that energy storage is vital to renewable energy) while simultaneously reminding you again that attempting to spread the natural gas industry lie that storage is not needed ("we'll just use NG peaking plants" -- the most expensive kind of electricity generation we have) is not going to win you any fossil points.

:hi:

PS, one thing that might be helpful is to repost the chart of peak energy demand with the solar and wind output superimposed to clearly show that storage is indeed needed for both solar and wind (and tidal and wave) renewable energy sources. (I'm experiencing google-brain interface failure at my end...)
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. You aren't paraphrasing, you are falsely mis-stating.
Edited on Mon Jun-13-11 10:25 AM by kristopher
For some perverse reason you have a desire to make storage sound like an obstacle when it isn't. It is just one more market niche within a complex grid with a set value that will be weighed against the alternatives available to perform the same function.

I'd urge everyone to download the IEEE paper by Milligan etal and read it themselves. It's a $26 paper for FREE; and it is very short and easy to read.

http://www.ieee-pes.org/images/pdf/open-access-milligan.pdf

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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. You misunderstand my position on energy storage for renewables
I have never stated that it is an "obstacle" for renewable energy to dominate and to enable the end of fossil fuel use. I have always stated that it is a necessary component of an energy mix (perhaps you can call it a smart grid) that will end the poisonous, deadly use of fossil fuels.

When I have time to kill I'll download the paper and read through but, based on the quote that you provided in your earlier post, Milligan, et.al., agree with my position. Storage is necessary, vital.

Yes, storage will add cost for greatly expanding renewable energy sources like solar, wind. tidal and wave power plants. I say those costs are worth every penny. In addition, we should immediately end all subsidies to fossil industries and redirect those funds to renewables, stop "turning a blind eye" to the hidden costs due to fossil pollution and charge the fossil industry for every penny of the military costs of keeping oil lanes open and pipelines flowing.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. No I do not misunderstand your position.
You deliberately distort information to make it appear that storage is an obstacle to adoption and deployment of renewables. You used to do the same thing with transmission.

People should download and read the free, short, easy to comprehend paper for themselves rather than rely on your characterization of it.

Wind Power Myths Debunked
By Michael Milligan, Kevin Porter, Edgar DeMeo, Paul Denholm, Hannele Holttinen, Brendan Kirby, Nicholas Miller, Andrew Mills, Mark O’Malley, Matthew Schuerger, and Lennart Soder

Digital Object Identifier 10.1109/MPE.2009.934268 november/december 2009 1540-7977/09/$26.00©2009 IEEE Power and Energy Magazine Master Series

http://www.ieee-pes.org/images/pdf/open-access-milligan.pdf


Questions addressed:
Can Grid Operators Deal with the Continually Changing Output of Wind Generation?

Does Wind Have Capacity Credit?

How Often Does the Wind Stop Blowing Everywhere at the Same Time?

Isn’t It Very Difficult to Predict Wind Power?

Isn’t It Very Expensive to Integrate Wind?

Doesn’t Wind Power Need New Transmission, and Won’t That Make Wind Expensive?

Doesn’t Wind Power Need Backup Generation? Isn’t More Fossil Fuel Burned with Wind Than Without, Due to Backup Requirements?

Does Wind Need Storage?

Isn’t All the Existing Flexibility Already Used Up?

Is Wind Power as Good as Coal or Nuclear Even Though the Capacity Factor of Wind Power Is So Much Less?

Isn’t There a Limit to How Much Wind Can Be Accommodated by the Grid?
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. You're making a disagreement where none exists - unless you were falsifying in post #8
From which I quote, "Storage is just one more cog in the wheel. We won't build a new energy system without some flexible resources such as storage, biofuels, geothermal, wave, tidal; we won't build it without solar or wind; we won't build it without EVs, we won't build it without spending money on upgrading the grid.
"But we will build it and it will work better and cost less than what we ahve now. It will also create far more GOOD employment than the current energy sector does."

That is a direct quote from your post #8. Are you now saying that my reading of your own words was incorrect?

I have long stated that we will never end fossil fuels without building extra solar and wind and tying it all in with enough energy storage so that the intermittent renewable energy sources can function as reliable 24/7/365 energy sources. Without energy storage (and lots of it) fossil fuels will dominate for many decades to come -- and we will pay the cost of our shortsightedness at that time.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Your words, muddled as they are, speak for themself.
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 03:15 AM
Response to Original message
9. I hope this is really true.
So much of these projections are often based on folks wearing rosy-tinted glasses, but the only thing that matters is proof in practice, not just "sounds good in theory."

The actual deployed and delivered electricity costs will speak for themselves.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. Don't forget that the costs of using fossil fuels are mostly obscured today
Purposefully or not, the true cost to our society of using fossil fuels has nothing to do with the price at the pump or the amount of the check you send off for your electric bill.

The subsidies for oil and coal are astronomical (as in they'd help pay off the so-called budget crisis in short order).

How would you like this business deal: I allow you to use your neighbor's land FOR FREE to dig up the gold that is there, you can make as much pollution and release toxic chemicals all you like (nobody will ever come to check on you), you get to sell the gold to the highest bidder and I only get about 5% of the net profit. When you've stolen all your neighbor's gold, just walk away and leave all the pollution behind for someone else to worry about (and I'll find you someone else's land to loot the gold from). Would you turn down that deal?
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. That is certainly what happened in the nuclear industry.
Of course, the government uncritically took unsubstantiated cost estimates directly from the nuclear industry when they started the effort to support nuclear in 2002. Independent analysts and investment houses were quite clear that they considered the estimates for nuclear to massively understate the costs, so it wasn't really a surprise to anyone that the claims made by the nuclear industry that they would achieve substantial cost reductions by 2010 were simply not true.

With solar, the opposite is true. Independent analysts, investment banks, academics, and government ALL agree that policy that drive investment in manufacturing capacity are the key to cost reductions. We are past the point of needing proof for that concept.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. We're not in disagreement that the nuclear construction industry is greedy and "bids low"
to get the construction contract, knowing full well that they are going to jack up the total cost with "accidents," "misreading the plans," and other BS totally orchestrated events that will raise the cost far beyond the upper limits envisioned when the project was conceived.

This is why I propose mass produced nuclear power plants. The construction companies are responsible for wasting money and killing projects through their greed. The incompetent (or on the take) local officials who sign the contracts that put all costs for these schedule pushbacks onto the backs of the taxpayers and create a supreme financial incentive for these greedy companies to BE more greedy should be strung up as well.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. There is no magic nuclear technology that can solve the problems of fission.
Cost, waste, proliferation and safety. When you solve one, you make another worse; and they ALL must be solved in one design to make nuclear viable.

Fission is just a stupid, Rube Goldberg approach to boiling water for making electricity.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Cost, waste, proliferation and safety - the same old unproven, unprovable fables
LFTR solves all 4.

SMRs solve all 4.

But let's not let facts get in the way of that fevered anti-nuker rambling.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Not according to MIT
Edited on Mon Jun-13-11 05:51 PM by kristopher
"We have not found and, based on current knowledge, do not believe it is realistic to expect that there are new reactor and fuel cycle technologies that simultaneously overcome the problems of cost, safety, waste, and proliferation." - pg 76

They examined the thorium fuel cycle and rate it negative in the long term for waste and neutral for proliferation (meaning it is the same as once through uranium).

"the 2010 Roadmap study evaluated eight advanced nuclear plant designs as candidates for near term deployment. The cost estimates for the new designs were provided by vendors with various levels of confidence and detail." pg 137

They looked at modular designs down to 100MW and yet selected larger designs with once through uranium as the best fit for their 4 criteria of cost, safety, waste, and proliferation.

STUDY FINDINGS
For a large expansion of nuclear power to succeed,four critical problems must be overcome:

Cost. In deregulated markets, nuclear power is not now cost competitive with coal and natural gas.However,plausible reductions by industry in capital cost,operation and maintenance costs, and construction time could reduce the gap. Carbon emission credits, if enacted by government, can give nuclear power a cost advantage.

Safety.
Modern reactor designs can achieve a very low risk of serious accidents, but “best practices”in construction and operation are essential.We know little about the safety of the overall fuel cycle,beyond reactor operation.

Waste.
Geological disposal is technically feasible but execution is yet to be demonstrated or certain. A convincing case has not been made that the long-term waste management benefits of advanced, closed fuel cycles involving reprocessing of spent fuel are outweighed by the short-term risks and costs. Improvement in the open,once through fuel cycle may offer waste management benefits as large as those claimed for the more expensive closed fuel cycles.

Proliferation.
The current international safeguards regime is inadequate to meet the security challenges of the expanded nuclear deployment contemplated in the global growth scenario. The reprocessing system now used in Europe, Japan, and Russia that involves separation and recycling of plutonium presents unwarranted proliferation risks.


Pronuclear MIT's 2003 report, "The Future of Nuclear Power"
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Apparently, not everyone at MIT is very smart
Edited on Mon Jun-13-11 06:51 PM by txlibdem
I've worked with enough Harvard MBAs that know exactly jack sh*t to know that going to a fancy school may mean nothing more than that mommy or daddy has a load of cash. "Dubya" graduated from Yale. Yale is such a prestigious school...

Whoever the team was that looked at Thorium cycle either did not look at LFTR or didn't use their entire cranium if they did.

http://www.energyfromthorium.com - has the answers and obviously has a lot of folks one heck of a lot smarter than the mama's boys at MIT.
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