Do hybrid cars save money?

I know everyone here has a raging hard on for hybrids and that it is most certainly in our national interest to see cars get better fuel economy, but, that said do hybrids save people money? This is an important question because rational factors tend to be a big reason most people decide what type of car to buy. They weight things like price, features, options, fuel economy, amount of space, etc... while impractical factors (top speed, sexiness, coolness factors) tend to come in a distant second. True, some people will always go for the sexy convertible sports car no matter what but the majority will end up in a sedan or minivan because they've got kids and groceries to haul around.

NPR has an excellent piece where they crunch the numbers and NPR's analysists say that right now hybrids don't save many people money and in fact end up costing more then conventional cars even when gas savings are accounted for. Currently there is a $3k-$5k price premium on a hybrid vs a conventional car which takes a lot of over come.

The question I have is what should we do to over come this economic reality and what can we realistically accomplish given the current political realities in the US today? I would love to see a rise in CAFE standards and an increase in the gas tax but that doesn't appear likely to happen. Is it possible to subsidize hybrids by giving them even larger tax credits thus making them cheaper on the market and improving their cost to benefit ratio? What can be done to make hybrids a better economic choice for more families?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4930471

My uncle works for an american auto manufactuer and told me the public does not know how much a battery costs after 3 or 5 years. the amount was $5000. So

Regardless of reason (other than obvious human tampering of course) if the battery goes out they replace it no charge.

150,000 MILE WARRANTY ON THE BATTERY

BTW - I worked for the "Think Tank - Incubator - Venture Fund" that commercialized the Ni-MH batteries used in hybrids and EV. The batteries are actually modules "gallon milk carton" size 1.3 Volt batteries arranged in series and parallel.

Most likely failure mode would be a single "separator" inside of a single battery -- which could be easily detected and relatively easily replaced.

The batteries are recyclable.

THEY ARE NOT LEAD ACID - THEY ARE NICKEL METAL HYDRIDE - LIKE IN OLDER CELL PHONES, CAM CORDERS, LAP TOPS, DIGITAL CAMERAS. NO SULFURIC ACID - NO LEAD

overlooking the fact that you never have to pay for emissions and whatever tax incentives your state gives you, the fact is getting even 45 mpg will save you significantly more at the pumps than even an econo car like mine which gets about 26-30 mpg.

As gas prices rise (and they will) and if you're one of those people that commutes at least 15-20 miles a day I'd say you'll easily make up the $5,000 premium within a few years.

the Prius was $2,000 LESS than a new Camry ($22,000 vs. $24,000), and has slightly more interior room. He LOVES the performance of the Pruis; smooth quite ride, great pickup and handling. On a good day he can get 100mpg! I heard the same story on NPR and told him about it; he thought it was bullshit propaganda.

The Camry buyer is comparing a Camry to other large sedans such as the Maxima, 500, Accord, etc... and not to a Prius which is a full size class smaller. The Pruis is a sub-compact which compeats with cars such as the Civic, Focus, Corolla, etc..

due to changes starting with the 2004 model year, the Prius is now classified as a mid-size car.

He camps a lot, and he says that he can fit a bit more into his Prius.He's had Camrys for twelve years AND he's a physicist. I bloody well think he would know what he was talking about.

I've owned a Corolla, and I have a Camry. It's much closer in size to a Camry. Just look at them parked side by side. It's the design, not the size of the vehicle, that you are associating with the other models.

Apples to apples.

expensive to repair dents, dings, etc. No such thing as bondo. You must cut out the bad stuff and replace witht the same custom light weight alloy. Its old fashioned metal work. My friend had a not to bad looking fender hit... The repair was 3300.

Let's say you had $22,000 to spend on a new car. Do you buy a conventional car or a hybrid car? Obviously, over time, your purchase of the hybrid car will save you money over the purchase of a regular car. The problem in the comparison comes when people expect hybrids to be cheaper than their alternatives. To make sense, the comparison should be made at the same price point and then calculated over the life of the car.

who mostly wear underclothes.
Yes you are right the calc has to be done over time.
Depending on use of course, but I think with "normal"
use the Hybrid's would be around half the cost over the life of the vehicle.

NPR said that when the reporter was comparing to buy a Subaru or a Prius the fuel savings would have taken 15 years (!!!!!) to make up for the original costs. That's a very long time and most people won't keep the car for that long. If fuel prices move significantly higher then the repayment period will shorten but I doubt we'll see inflation adjusted doubling of retail fuel prices.

a garage for two weeks the battery would need to be jumped, which is utter bullshit. Prius owners everywhere wrote in demanding a correction, but they never made one (it was on a Prius discussion board, and I heard the NPR report myself). NPR is obviously passing along false propaganda about hybrids; why I don't know.

The 12V battery in the Prius is very small compared to a normal car because there is no starter motor -- the 300V hybrid batteries use the normal motor generators to start the engine. The automatic door locks and other electronics that stay on even when the car is turned off do tap out the battery in a relatively short period of time. If you put a Prius in storage for over a week, it is best to disconnect the 12V battery lead.

A solution that many Prius owners (at least those that park outside) are using is to put a tiny cheap solar panel in the back window. This prevents the problem and also extends the life of the 12V battery by keeping it topped up (you can extend the life of any car's battery this way, actually, and I believe RadioShack sells a unit for this purpose.)

not yet at least. The prices will have to start dropping down first.

A lot.

I saw a report on a news program that found it would take you 15-20 years of driving to recover the initial premium price you paid for the hybrid over the conventional vehicle.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4930471

"Morning Edition, September 30, 2005 · Hybrid cars certainly save gas, but it's debatable whether they save money for consumers. Steve Inskeep talks with Joseph White, Detroit bureau chief of The Wall Street Journal, who argues that -- at least for now -- they don't."
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I don't agree. He was basing his figures on gas prices of no more than $3.00 a gallon. I think he's wrong because I think in two or three years, we'll be looking at $3 a gallon gas the way we now look at $1 a gallon gas.

Also it used to stress me out to fill up the tank of my old car. I still have to fill it up, but the tank is smaller and it gets me through the week again plus extra. I like less stress.

I plan to keep this car a long time. Everything considered, Detroit had better come out of the dark ages and start adjusting to reality. I wish them luck at selling off their non-hybrid inventory.

The Prius's price premium is not $3k. Even on my old pre-assembly-line 2002, when Toyota had to come up with a figure it was $2,500. The newer ones actually use the main assembly lines for the most part. The tax deduction the Edmunds study used in the article was from this year. That tax deduction is based on the difference between comparable hybrid and non-hybrid cars. Next year's will be a tax credit worth much more. Meanwhile Toyota is now getting serious about slashing the price differential.

They say they need to compare apples to apples. Note that they compared the Prius to the Camry, not the Corolla. They seemed to think that was the fair comparison and frankly, having ridden often in a Corolla I have to agree -- the Prius is nicer. Despite the external size being about that of the corolla, the ride in the Prius is much nicer and feels more like a midsize.

Unless they are very poorly designed, hybrids do not have more parts than an ICE car. Yes, you have two motor generators and a liquid cooled giant transistor array. But you don't have a transmission interlock/shifting assembly (or for that matter a reverse gear), or an alternator, or a starter motor. Those parts are eliminated by the design. You don't have to replace the break pads as often since you don't use them while coasting the breaks. Yes you have batteries. No they don't wear out in five years time. Toyota guarantees at least 10.

Now onto the premise.

It isn't all about the dollars. And it isn't just about the emissions on this year's model. It's about encouraging the technology. That's why I bought mine -- and it worked. My small cash outlay along with other early Prius onwers contributed to the success of the model, and to that of hybrids as a general class. And now they are bringing the full force of the industry to bear on optimizing them. That's progress. Unlike the regressive world we lived in if everyone thought like the Wall Street Journal idiot.

Versus living liberal values, even if it takes some sacrifice.

Add anywhere from $4.60/gal to $14.14/gal to the pump price for the true price of oil. And this does not consider the cost of the destabilizing effect of a ‘price shock’ to the overall economy. And what is the true cost of global warming? Reducing greenhouse gas emissions by 33% is not insignificant as far as I am concerned.

So, lets run the numbers, assuming 14,000mi/yr., 30 mi/gal non-hybrid, 45 mi/gal hybrid effeiency. The following considers the hybrid break-even versus price premium ($3,000, $5000) and gas cost.

Gas Cost - $3 $5 $7 $9/gal

$3000 --- 6.4 3.9 2.8 2.1 yr.

$5000 --- 10.7 6.4 4.6 3.6 yr.

Therefore, taking into account the low end of the ‘true’ cost of gasoline, and a $3/gal pump price, we have gas at about $7.60/gal, and hybrid break-even at about 2.5 yr. for a $3000 hybrid premium.

And I am not even addressing the benefits of future PHEV's, which is the logical extension of Toyota's Synergy drive, no matter what they claim.

when I bought my Prius, my spread sheet calculations got fuzzy between $2.75 a gallon - $3.25 a gallon.

If gas "stayed below $2.75 a gallon" - buying a hybrid was an "early adopter" and "political" statement. If gas went above $3.25 a gallon - it was a no-brainer.

I have since "semi-retired" -- and I live in a planned community-transit village and drive 4K-5K miles a year. But, I still consider my Prius a good purchase - because I am not asking any Americans to die in Iraq for my oil.

Although I would like to see the "plug in hybrid" -- heck, then I would never buy any gas.

I would be interested in a hybrid for the reduced
environmental impact over the cost savings, but I
heard a report last year that somehow the energy
(and oil derived power) necessary to construct the
battery (or fuel cell? I'm sorry, I don't know
whether they are the same thing) was immense and
that as a consequence, they aren't the environmental
champions that they appear to be. I haven't been
able to find that article or to hear anything about
that though. Has anyone else heard that? Is it
true?

tonka

(as in fuel calls and batteries)

A) The batteries are recyclable.

B) Steel casting also requires a lot of energy. There are less parts in a synergy drive planetary gearset than there are in a normal car's automatic transmission. When someone tries to calculate the energy used producing a single part of the Prius that does not exist in a normal car, they should also do the reverse. wouldn't you say? Engineers that actually bother to look at the Prius's design usually remark on its simplicity and elegance.

C) After it has been on the market for a decade or so, (and R&D overheads thus covered) the cost in energy for something is usually pretty closely tied to the cost in dollars. As the "extra hybrid price tag" shrinks, and perhaps eventually goes negative, that will represent the R&D costs being ammortized for a few years yet, and eventually show a decrease in the amount of energy required to manufacture the components as the manufacturing process is streamlined.

D) Demand for batteries in this application signifigantly encourages development of further improvement in battery technology (price, environmental impact, etc.)

What's stopping me from buying one is that I am waiting for them to make a station wagon (and that my minivan still has plenty of years on it). Hopefully by then, the automakers will have driven the cost premium down significantly.

At least that's the way I view them, despite what their owners might prefer me to :-)

They don't nearly approach the mileage of an economy hybrid, but they are full hybrids of the better variety (both use planetary transaxels.) The SynergyII drive in the Lexus uses two for more "muscle."

on the Hylander. There is one for the front and one for the back. The system looks like a series hybrid to me, rather like a diesel locomotive. Is that what you mean?

...unless you mean an additional beyond that for the 4wd.

More on the planetary gearset:

http://www.earthtoys.com/emagazine.php?issue_number=05.10.01&article=naftc
http://www.auto-careers.org/ford_escape_transaxle_made_by_ai.htm